9mm, .40, or .45 for Defence?

[Lanark_Sixgunner]

You all know that I am thinking of getting the GLOCK, but what caliber should I really get it in?

[ThisisDoc]

Caliber is no where near as important as being able to use your weapon.... i have both a 9 and a 45, but i prefer my 9 due to a bigger capacity for cartridges, practice is the Key and for my Glock i have the .22 conversion kit... i can shoot all day long pretty inexpensively

[flatwater]

Thisisdoc is right , all of the mentioned calibers are good , it's shot placement that counts.
Flatwater

[ThisisDoc]

Hell i even have a nice little Walther .22 and a Sig Mosquito i carry and they are both .22 both pretty concealable... and a Jiminez .380 that fits right in my pocket soooo many choices... im thinking about getting the wife a Springfield XD compact in a .40 for her to carry

[kawalekm]

I have all three, and I"m now leaning toward the 40 as the best all around caliber. More power than an 9mm, but more shots than a 45. You decide which is more important. One very serious consideration for you is availabliity. How easy is it to get 9mm, or 40, or 45 where you're located?

It's not an issue for me though because I reload, and cast my own bullets. I'm seeing though that my 40 stocks are the lowest of the three simply because I mostly reload brass I've picked up at the range, and 40 is the least common.
Michael

[hunter63]

IMHO, 9 mm.
Ammo much cheaper for the 9mm, and I don't think the "bad guy" will care what it is as long as you can shoot it.
It always seems we get involve in opinions on "what is the best caliber", and away we go.
ThisisDoc and flatwater hit it on the head, pick one cal., and practice, practice ,practice.

[High_Desert]

It's not an issue for me though because I reload, and cast my own bullets. *I'm seeing though that my 40 stocks are the lowest of the three simply because I mostly reload brass I've picked up at the range, and 40 is the least common.
Michael
You know, lately it has been the reverse for me... All I seem to find is .40S&W. Not that its a bad thing as we have one auto and one revolver in .40..

HD

[FotoTomas]

All three calibers have good and bad points. After 30 plus years of packing a pistol on duty and off I have settled on the 9mm for the vast majority of my needs. Inexpensive for practice or competition. Effective in modern JHP loadings. Mucho ammo in the gun for one of those bad days where you might need a gun. Mild recoil and superb shootability. Very accurate in most any modern pistol designed for it. Least expensive for the reloader due to reduced material costs and the more efficient case.

I love my .45's and I like the .40 and the .357 SIG. I own a sample of them all but the one I carry and shoot the most is a 9mm.

As for stopping power...hit'em with a truck. I guarantee that will stop'em. On the otherhand I do NOT guarantee any handgun round will stop anything. It might... BUT... I "expect" to have to shoot most anything that needs shooting more than once.

[Old_John]

Let me interject here...........
If you do it right you don't need a whole box of shells.
I carry a .357 magnum Ruger.
6 rounds is plenty for me.
Have Fun!

[SingleStack45]

There is no substitution for displacement... ;)

Seriously...get what you are comfortable shooting.

[docsoos]

There is no substitution for displacement... ;)

What he said! ;D

DocSoos

[flatwater]

Another thing I would like to add. The average distance that one will shoot at for self defence is 7 yards or less. Make the first shot count , the bullet does not have to be coming out of the barrel at mock one , it just has to have a nice big met-plate. And if you have made up your mind about self defence , do some mental exercises to prepare your self to kill some one because to draw and freeze is a death sentance.
Flatwater

[jim]

Correct!

[cubcadet]

Anyone who is debating this has fallen under the spell of the manipulating Gov`t controlled media. Notice, for example, when THEY describe a shooting that they`ll include in the description of the incident, the make or caliber of the gun. What difference does it make whether it`s an AK 47 or *a 9 mm that the perp used. Notice that the weapon, or caliber is implicated, more than the perp.
I asked a question 20 years ago about this trend towards more choice in calibers. The old pistolero gentleman said if you choose the .45, you are choosing the round, and if you choose a 9mm, you`re choosing the arm. There it is, folks. Fashion dictates our choices in most of our consumer products. Long before there was tv, there were the old reliables: bb`s and .22`s for plinking, .38 Specials for police work, and the old warhorse, the best handgun round ever developed, the .45 ACP. You don`t have to be proficient with it; it`ll likely take your assailant`s arm off. My dad told me about the.45 ACP in the Pacific theater. It worked in the closeness of jungle warfare in either the Thompson, or an officer`s sidearm, old slabsides. A shotgun was a plus. The .30 carbine was a step towards eliminating both arms.
I used to go to New York City to protest in the late `80`s and early `90`s. Back then all patrolmen (and women), carried revolvers loaded with .38 +P`s. They knew how to shoot in those days. It seemed to me, the cops had more guts, as well as more freedom to shoot back then. The City was more dangerous then, too, so we`re told. Now, they rely on the`spray and pray` theory. One cop told me that cities are cutting way back on their budget, allowing for less range time and less ammo whith which to practice. They use the cheap, CCI aluminum ammo for practice, *too , which stinks for accuracy, and don`t cycle well in the autos.
All told, it`s the gun you`re good with, not the caliber or the piece, that will down the perp. Placement`s the thing, as well as the terminal ballistics.

[Tuckahoe]

I have a GLOCK 22C (.40 S&W) for a carry pistol.

[remington]

I know what everybody says about how no round will literally knock down a perp. That is a given. But at said 7 feet or 700 feet, the bigger the bullet the harder it's gonna hit. Know there are practical limits to this (777 T-Rex anybody) Pick what you can shoot accurately and find ammo for in your area. I like the .45, it has been in use for almost 100 years now and is a proven manstopper. Some people complain about the 9 mm being to little, ever here anyone complain about a .45? The 9mm of today is also a way different animal that back in the 60's, 70's etc. We have better bullets (JHP's that feed in semis) and your various +P, +P+, and +P+P+ rounds. Pick what you are comfortable shooting and don't listen to anyone that tells you that you have to have one caliber to win in an armed confrontation. The man with the best training and who is the best shot will very time (Read Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner)

[Stinger]

Where to begin? OK, actually caliber is important. This is because none of the handgun calibers develop, both, sufficient energy to stop effectively AND produce the minimal recoil necessary to shoot effectively in the same handgun. When it comes to handguns: Bigger slower moving bullets are more advantageous to use in a gunfight than smaller faster moving bullets.

In order to save me from writing, ‘a book’ take a look at Michael Courtney’s latest thread over at Glock Talk. It’s quite an eye opener on what all bullets can and cannot do.

If you, ever, do get into a real handgun fight, your chances of walking away unscathed are greatly reduced if you wait to engage at 7 1/2 yards or less. Gunfighting at these distances is mostly for losers – Not winners!

Retired Sheriff’s Lieutenant Dave Spaulding has done some excellent after-action gunfighting analysis that strongly suggests people who walk away from gunfights tend to formulate an attack response BEFORE the event unfolds and, also, engage from distances as far away as 20 yards!

According to Dave Spaulding, the statistics the FBI should actually be reporting are a whole different set of numbers from shooting incidents where the officer LIVED to walk away rather than got killed.

Now, a word about shot placement: Don’t kid yourself! Last year my next door neighbor took four pistol rounds to his mid and lower torso. (At the moment I don’t remember; but, it was either 9mm or 40 caliber.) He didn’t go down after he was shot. He was, even, sitting up in his favorite chair, waiting quietly, when the ambulance arrived. If they had let him, he would have, also, walked outside to the ambulance rather than be carried! (Tough young man!)

‘Shot placement’ has more meaning and significance when you apply it to centerfire rifle rounds: Then, you’ve got: the energy, the velocity, and the mass to do all those good things Drs. Fackler and Courtney constantly refer to. These same concepts and the results are, however, considerably less relevant (or impressive) when you apply them to centerfire handgun cartridges and the average human body.
To those pistoleros who are extraordinarily competent with a handgun, OK, you MIGHT get adequate shot placement in your next gunfight. Most people – most gunmen, however – will not. Consequently, what should be predicted as the most likely event to occur is that, ‘effective shot placement’ will NOT be a deciding factor in your next gunfight. What is most likely to happen is that you’ll be lucky to just make the other guy bleed; and, that’s about it!

Now, for some of my own conclusions:

(1) I’ll, quite literally, shoot any caliber at the range. They’re all great for something; but, for serious work with people, I carry a 45 acp pistol. The bullet's: considerable 230 grain weight, 300 + foot-pounds of energy, and soft recoil characteristics are ideal for everything that I, either, do or might expect to do with a combat pistol.

(2) The 357 magnum cartridge is another great pistol round; but, it recoils too much for most people to handle well; and it’s, also, too slow to be repeatedly fired with the necessary accuracy in a handgun fight.

(3) You can, also, forget about high magazine capacity being an advantage in a handgun fight. Inside 15 yards there is no difference between 7 and 17 rounds; and, at any greater distance, well, you’d better be a good shot - Period! The old adage is true: You can never miss fast enough! Look at it this way, hundreds and hundreds of pistol rounds didn’t stop any bad guy from working mayhem and spilling blood at either Homestead, FL, or Laurel Canyon, CA.

When it comes to stopping anything made of flesh and blood you’ve got 3 essential bullet elements working for you: (1) muzzle energy and velocity, (2) bullet size and weight, and (3) the typical characteristics of the most likely terminal wound: i.e.; (3a) bullet point (tissue) crush, (3b) penetration, (including bone damage and the two forms of internal wound cavitation) as well as (3c) both forms of ballistic pressure wave damage (immediate impact area and synergistic trauma).

In a gunfight: It is highly unlikely that you will rise up to meet the stressful and pressing demands of the occasion. Instead you will, more than likely, default to the mean level of your actual training and preparation. The only thing I’ll give to the: ‘9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp debate’ is that it’s not going to matter what you’re shooting if you’re not regularly and heavily practiced with it.

Remember after an exhaustive after-action analysis, the FBI’s experts concluded that, ‘shot placement’ (either good, or bad) wasn’t the true reason, ‘Why’ two agents were killed and five others seriously wounded at Homestead. Many of those agents hit their targets early on; and, as a group of combat marksmen, they actually shot quite well that day!

Instead, it was the inferior terminal ballistics of the pistol ammunition the agents were using that – in spite of the early, potentially lethal, hits that were made on both bad guys – ultimately failed to save those agents’ lives. *

The Inimitable 45 acp! (http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm) *

What Really Happens In A Gunfight? By Dave Spaulding (http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/) *

[swedishfish]

I went with a S&W 45. its larger and fits my hand better. Its taking some work or get accurate, but overall comfort was important to me since i have early onset RA.

[jim]

Good articles, thanks! I did notice one descrepancy in the .45 article though. "Notice that no fighting force in history has gone into battle armed with pistols as their primary weapons. " Uh I believe the Texas Rangers did exactly this for quite some time starting with their battles against the exceedingly fierce Comanches. They got into the habit, and while having rifles and shotguns at their disposal, tended to rely on their Colt (usually) revolvers. They still do manage quite well with their pistols.

jim

[remington]

Another angle. I was talking to a retired police officer recently about 9mm vs. 45. I am a 45 man myself but something he said stuck with me. "I have seen to many people dead on the floor as a result of a .22 or .25 to doubt a 9mm as a stopper."

[Stinger]

With all due respect: It's not all about being dead on the floor. Instead, it's about stopping the other gunman from putting you there, too! ;)

[jim]

I concur.

[Boris859]

I also belong to the surplusrifle.com forum,someones sig line there says "a 9mm may expand,but a .45 sure won't shrink",I really prefer revolvers for self defense,simply because of less issues with jamming,safetys,and such,besides,if I can't hit em with six,I more than likely won't hit em with the other 10 either ;D

[tufhelp]

The one shot, one kill theory is a great one, but not a particularly practical one in an urban setting. Here in Albuquerque, just about every would be Jessie James carries a large capacity magazine something or another with many rounds to spray and pray with. I also carry the same type of handgun (9mm Glock, 2 16 round mags) and I will spray and pray right back at them if the need arises. I don't intend to be pinned down and out gunned.... When we are down on the place, the Glock stays in the vehicle and I go for my trusty ole' 1911 45.

[remington]

I'm not saying that dead on the floor is good enough Stinger. I am talking about little old ladies that fired a small .25 handgun and dropped attackers. This man is talking from many years of police experience in two major cities as a officer, and sherrifs deputy.

[FotoTomas]

I remember the day President Reagan was shot. Reagan was hit with a .22 under the arm and it did not stop him. Press secretary Brady was also hit with the .22 and dropped like a rock.

My argument still stands. NO pistol caliber is a stopper. They All have spectacular successes and miserable failures. A handgun is the best option for an immediate tool that will always be with you. Any handgun with which you are comfortable and shoot well is an asset. I like'em all and have carried them all and to this day do not believe you can have a "best" caliber in a handgun. Only a caliber that "might" be best for a particular need.

Of the three calibers mentioned in the OP all will do the job and all can fail. Carry what makes you happy. If "YOU" believe one is better than the other then by all means carry it. Self confidence with your tools can be more valuable than the cartridge it carries.

[remington]

"A handgun is the gun you carry with you when you can't have a shotgun or rifle."

[martialcanine45cal]

I am a smaller guy in stature and started out on 9MMs. The firearm and caliber I carry religiously is a 1911 .45ACP because - perhaps ironically - I shoot better and more confidently with them. Never choose a caliber for caliber sake.

My philosophy is that the rifle/shotgun is my primary defense weapon, and the pistol is secondary. Where the r/s is illegal/impractical, the pistol takes first chair with extra mags/speedloaders and a backup pistol.

Capacity, in my opinion, must be a secondary consideration. From what I have seen, novices in general "shoot until empty", which often develops into a habit. Starting out on high cap mags only exascerbates this problem as far as I am concerned. Learning to place a few quality, deliberate shots is the best practice and if it carries over into real-life, would reduce the likelihood of rounds off target.

If even multiple threats cannot be stopped with 6-8 rounds or perhaps even part of a second reload, the situation probably warranted something more than a pistol (even if it wasn't a legal option at the time) or there are issues with the shooter.

I'm not saying this is the "Gospel", but that is my general philosophy. Regardless of capacity, every shooter should carry a firearm that they can shoot comfortably, competently, and affordably, and practice for real-life.

[macgeoghagen]

I prefer the .45ACP of those three, but I don't doubt that the other two can kill a person. I like the big boom that my .45 makes, as well as the big hole that the hydrashocks make. I want to be able to kill a person with the trauma that results from having a little lead and copper flower bloom inside him at high velocity. instant kill. If i can get an organ with any caliber, thats nice too.
.22-dead
.25-dead
.38-dead
9mm-dead
.40-dead
.45-dead

[scanr]

I carry a S&W 915 9mm with Hydro-shock ammo. Carrying the right ammunition is probably more important than the size of the bullet. Shot placement trumps all though. A 22 to the forehead beats a 45 out the window.

Whatever caliber you pick, practice, practice, practice.

[martialcanine45cal]

Truer words could not be spoken. A person who practices correctly and often with a .22LR pistol will be deadlier than a show-off fumbling with a .45ACP.


Whatever caliber you pick, practice, practice, practice.

[plowman]

the model gun i choose is more important
1 does it feel good in my hand
2 how quick can i aline the sight on it
3 does it fit in my life style
this is how i choose

[pinetree64]

Yes. *Whichever one you shoot best with. *I personally do not care for the 40S&W. *Shooting my brothers Glock23 left me happy that I have 1911's in 45acp and a hi-power in 9mm. *We would shoot a rack of steel plates followed with an IDPA target. *The Glock would shift when firing and I would have to re-adjust my grip. * I found the 40 much snappier than 230g 45 acp. *I did carry a 38 snubby but recently sold it and a 4" 357 7 shot (Tauruses) to buy a Ruger SP101 3" 357 (4-6 week bo). *It will be my all the time gun. *The others are in rotation - truck, bedroom, and safe.

I like 45acp for all the standard reasons and love the 1911 platform. *I like 9mm for the capacity, price and ease of shooting. * *

This is my first post - I have been a BWH reader for 5 years or so! It and Backwoodsman are my favorite magazines by far.

[fishercat]

I carry a Glock 23 and like it a lot. For years I carried a 357 magnum revolver and liked that also , I just wanted to carry more rounds in the weapon. I agree about shot placement but I would rather carry my Glock than my 22A Smith and Wesson.

[flatwater]

I have a ruger in 45/45acp convertable six shot revolver. When I'm in the woods it's what I carry but in town I carry a P22 walther auto. I usually try and stay out of troubled spots but I figure that walther will give me enough time to make someone think twice.
flatwater

[sethwyo]

My advise is Dont buy the glock, Take the money Proubley $500 or so, And get some rifles like surplus m44's and ammo
And also a shotgun or two.
Hand guns are very Over rated on usability. A simple and low cost one like my Orbea .38 is really all is needed in that area, a good rifle and/or shotgun is what you will be using.

[martialcanine45cal]

Rifles and shotguns have their place, but so do handguns. I will always reach for my 12 ga. unless a rifle is needed. The pistol is the last resort at home but becomes my primary 'in town'.

That said, I wouldn't simply have the attitude that the pistol is not really useable in comparison to rifles/shotguns and doesn't require much fore-thought or selection criteria. If anything, with the wide variety of differences in handguns, selection of your pistol requires much more criteria!

For inexpensive, utility long-guns, differences between makes are not that great. Aside from those surplus rifles, you're not going to find a huge gap in quality, function, and performance in the sub-$700+/- range.

Pistols, on the other hand, are their own universe, and widely-differing platforms, quality, shape, material, function, and performance can be found all around the same price. Then you have caliber considerations, the availability and affordability of a specific ammo in an area, and the skill/comfort level of a specific user.

A .38 would not work for me, period (better than nothing though). I use all of my pistols for self-defense, hunting, and backwoods backup. I consider it a weak round for all three uses. While a .22LR can be lethal in the right hands, why go with that when I can handle and shoot a .45ACP effectively and enjoyably?

Except where a rifle or shotgun is illegal, a pistol takes second chair, but if the pistol is all I got or can get to, I want something effective for a wide range of threats and situations. So I use the largest caliber I can shoot accurately and comfortably, in my case 45ACP and 45Colt.

If you don't have a shotgun AND rifle in the home, yes, you should be researching and shopping for one. No person serious about personal defense or self-reliance should be without. Training in these is just as important as basic pistol training too.

But still, consider your choice of a handgun and caliber carefully...which is why I always recommend renting different guns of different calibers at gun shop shooting ranges to find what you're comfortable and confident with on a basic level, before buying. It will save you tons of money in more purchases or trades if you start off with something that works from day one.

Plowman's criteria offers a good starting point to select about three or 4 possibilities that settle naturally in your hands and that function smoothly with your instinctive, untrained skill. Then get out and shoot those possibles before putting the money down to buy the one that both feels good and works well too. And always get as much training as you can afford!

My advise is *Dont buy the glock, *Take the money Proubley $500 or so, And get some rifles like surplus m44's and ammo
And also a shotgun or two. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Hand guns are very Over rated on usability. *A simple and low cost one like my Orbea .38 is really all is needed in that area, a good rifle and/or shotgun is what you will be using. *

[Stinger]

:) Let me interject this:

Comments Regarding: The U.S. Army Tests of 1904
Bruce L. Jones
Program Manager, Infantry Weapons
USMC - Pacific Theater

…… Because the stopping power of the Army 38 caliber revolvers had proven very unsatisfactory in actual field use, it was decided to study the relative stopping power of various handgun cartridges then in existence with the view of adopting a new weapon for military use. The board convened for this purpose was headed by Col. John T. Thompson (Of Thompson submachine gun fame) and Col. Louis A. LaGarde.

The calibers selected for testing were the: 30 (7.65mm) Luger, 9mm Luger, 38 Colt Army revolver, 38 Colt Auto Pistol, 45 Colt Revolver, 45 Colt Auto, (1905 version) 455 Colt, and the 476 Colt. The ballistics of these guns and cartridges are listed below:

Cartridge > Bullet Wt. > Velocity Energy

30 Luger > 93 grns. > 1420 fps > 415ft/lbs.

9 mm Luger > 123 grns. > 1048 fps > 301ft/lbs.

38 Colt Army > 148 grns. > 763 fps > 191ft/lbs.

38 Colt Auto > 130 grns. > 1107 fps > 354ft/lbs.

45 Colt Auto > 200 grns. > 900 fps > 405ft/lbs.

45 Colt Revolver > 250 grns. > 720 fps > 288ft/lbs.

455 Colt > 218 grns. >801 fps > 288ft/lbs.

476 Colt 288 grns. > 729 fps > 340ft/lbs.

…… The test series consisted of first firing shots from all of the handguns into human cadavers. Movement or oscillation of the cadavers on impact of the shot was noted as well as the apparent tissue and other damage. Results were studied both by X-ray and dissection.

…… It was consistently demonstrated that the degree and magnitude of oscillation of the cadavers was always greater with the larger caliber bullets. The amount of sway caused by the: 30, 9mm, and 38 caliber bullets was always small - more like a tremor in most cases. On impact by any of the large caliber bullets limb movement or oscillation of the entire body was quite marked.

…… The wound channels generally corresponded to the diameter of the bullet, but with the exit wound being larger than the entrance wound. The small caliber high velocity bullets generally demonstrated clean penetration of bones whereas the larger calibers tended to fracture and fissure bone structure. The tendency to fracture was more pronounced by all calibers in areas of long bone, away from the joints. Lead bullets showed a greater fracture effect than full jacketed or the soft point bullets available at that time in handgun velocities.

…… Head wounds were an entirely different proposition, and a small caliber high velocity bullet of full jacketed or soft point type caused a tremendous amount of fragmentation in the skull cap, with resultant greater disruption of brain tissue. Large caliber bullets at lower velocity did not always penetrate through the skull and did not create the same degree of fragmentation. However, such a heavy blow to the skull appeared likely to disorientate and knock out a live target – It was generally agreed that this would have, indeed, produced an effective, ‘stop’ in real life.

…… It was found that lead bullets tended to deform and also tumble more frequently than jacketed bullets and, either through deformation or tumbling, often did more tissue damage than jacketed bullets. Most wounds made by the smaller caliber bullets were judged more easily and rapidly healed than those made by the larger diameter bullets.

…… The second part of this Army test involved shooting into live animals in order to observe the actual effects on living tissue. On the killing floor of the Chicago stockyards, shots were fired under controlled conditions at a range of 3 feet into steers and horses. No shots were fired into vital organs such as the heart or brain, with all shots being fired into the lung or intestinal areas. Each specific effect of shooting these animals was noted; and, thereafter, it was promptly dispatched in the usual manner. If an animal failed to drop by the tenth shot, firing stopped, and the animal was immediately killed.

NOTE: …… It is acknowledged that steers and horses are much larger than humans, and the distance that a shock wave from a wound would have to travel to a major nerve centre is much greater. Distance needed to reach a major blood vessel is also greater. Such animals are not analogues for humans. Early researchers did not see this as a significant selection factor for pistol caliber selection. Instead, they considered everything to be relative, and used this part of the tests merely for the sake of comparison.

In 1904 horse-mounted cavalry was still a major part of the U.S. Army; and, the pistol was considered the cavalry’s major close quarter combat weapon. Importantly, the capability to kill an enemy’s horses was considered to be the major use for a cavalry handgun.

…… With the 30 Luger in no instance did an animal drop by the tenth shot; and, in fact, none of them appeared to suffer: great pain, shock, or distress - even after the tenth shot! Animals shot with the 9mm, or the 38 Colt Auto showed greater distress; and, by the sixth or seventh shot showed: great distress, shock, or exhaustion, and usually dropped before the eighth shot was fired. The effect of the 38 Colt Army revolver was about the same - although, perhaps, not quite so pronounced as the two automatic rounds.

…… With the 45 Colt revolver the animals showed great shock and distress and usually dropped by the fourth shot. With the 455 and 476 caliber revolvers the animal usually dropped by the third shot. Those shot by the large calibers would begin to bleed from the nose and mouth by the second or third shot. This did not happen with the smaller calibers. (This is presumably bloody froth from damage to lung blood vessels.)

…… The major conclusions drawn from the Army Lethality Tests of 1904 are as follows:

(1) Within the velocity range possible with handguns there is no marked effect from velocity alone other than greater penetration.

(2) At handgun velocities there is little difference in the effect of different bullet materials (lead or jacketed) when traversing flesh. However, lead bullets will inflict more damage when they strike bone.

(3) In flesh there appears to be little difference between a sharp pointed or round nosed bullet. On the other hand, a flat or blunt point does substantially more damage to blood vessels and bone and has less tendency to be deflected by bone or cartilage.

(4) The weight of the bullet may be critical. It is to be noted that the most effective bullets were not only of large caliber, but also the heaviest weight.

(5) The diameter or caliber of the bullet is important because at handgun velocities expansion of soft point or other expanding bullets is not reliable. The larger diameter bullets simply destroy more tissue and blood vessels because they affect a larger cross sectional area, and attack it with more weight.

…… There were other tests to follow, of course. The net result was the Army's adoption of a 45 cartridge firing a 230 grn. jacketed bullet at 855 fps. The jacketed bullet does better with skull penetrations and damage. Lesser velocity works very well as the British later noted; but, this higher velocity was a compromise to achieve better penetration of heavy clothing.

…… During the 1920's the British conducted a series of experiments in the course of which they also fired handguns into cadavers and live animals. Their conclusion was that diameter of the projectile made less difference than weight. Weight and velocity were the most important factors and the velocity had to be low - NOT high.

They concluded that a 200-gr. projectile traveling at an initial velocity of about 650 fps was ideal for good short-range stopping power. The reason for the low velocity was so that the bullet would expend its entire energy within the target and not carry on through.

In the mid 1930’s the British adopted the 38 caliber/200 grn. Cartridge which was really nothing more than the old 38 S&W otherwise known as the, ‘Super Police’ when loaded with the 200-gr. bullet. It was officially titled as the 380 Revolver Mk I, and had a 200-gr. bullet of .359" diameter that developed a muzzle velocity of 630 fps. This cartridge was to replace their 455 Webley which had a 265-gr. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 600 fps. Both calibers were used in WWII; and, there are conflicting reports as to their relative effectiveness.

…… As time went on, a report was issued by the U.S. Army after the Korean War entitled, ‘Weapons Usage in Korea’, by S.L.A. Marshal. All of the general infantry weapons were evaluated by field studies both during and after combat. According to this report, the 45 acp was regarded by the combat troops as superior to the 30 caliber carbine for close range fighting because of its superior stopping power. The 45 acp was very highly regarded by troops who used it in the Korean War.

…… Canadian troops in the Korean War were armed with the 9mm Browning auto pistol; and, many of the Canadians are known to have traded-in their 9mm's for American 45 acp pistols. The only time the 9mm proved superior to the 45 acp was if the enemy troops were wearing light body armor and/or heavy clothing. In this instance, the 9mm with its higher velocity gave better penetration; but, the 45 acp always had the best stopping power against unarmored personnel. The 45 acp proved very effective in certain types of fighting required in Korea - Usually at ranges of from 15 to 25 yards; although, there were instances of effective use at ranges out to 50 - 60 yards.

…… Modern tests bear out the 1904 findings. The old formula still works; and, as far as velocity is able to be achieved with handguns and pistol ammunition, seems to have little useful effect on target incapacitation. If huge increases in velocities can be achieved - for example, an extra 1,000 fps - there ARE gains made; but, then, you might as well be shooting a rifle!

Reference:

Pig Board II - Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study, Terminal Ballistics

[Scout]

We used to trap a lot of hogs on a couple ranches and kill the mand give the meat away. We killed one boar that had weird lumps in his head. We cut the skin away with a razor knife and found six FMJ pistol bullets imbeded in the skull. I cut them out with a dremmel and matched them to a 9mm case. I gave all but one away, I'll post a pic tomorrow.

I've heard way too many stories of people not even being phased by 9mm's (case in point: the 1986 Miami FBI shoot out) to ever trust it as anything more than a back up gun caliber.

I'm a one-shot-one-kill kinda guy when it comes to hunting, but when it comes to defending my life, as Clint Smith says, "If someone's going to kill me with my own gun, they're going to have to beat me to death with it becaus it's going to be empty."

I'm a good shot, wether it be pistol or rifle (I suck at skeet), and I'm pretty sure that if I empty my 1911, at least some of those 9 rounds are going to make contact.

You hear reports all the time of guys taking multiple 9mm rounds and not stopping. Will a 9mm kill someone? Hell yes. However, I'm not worried about killing anybody in defence, I want to stop them. If the attacker is unable to cause me, my family, or any innocents harm, or damage to property, then he is "stopped." Simply put, about 100 years of history has repeatedly proven that the 9mm Parabellum cannot be counted on to reliably stop an advesary.

My choice, a .45, preferably a 1911 (I hate GLOCK's with a passion), loaded with JHP's from a well respected brand. No "gimmick" ammo like Glaser's or RBCD's.

Remember: If you're going to get into a gunfight, bring a rifle. Bring several friends with rifles. If a rifle is not available, bring a shotgun leaded with buckshot. If a shotgun is unavailable, bring a pistol in a caliber that starts with '4'. And ammo is cheap, funerals are expensive.

[remington]

Gotta agree with you on this one Scout

[martialcanine45cal]

Being a stopper or eventually causing the death of an individual are two very different things.

9mm, .380, .25, and .22 do send a lot of people to the morgue; these are common street calibers that come in inexpensive platforms. Yet you will find that they aren't often 'stoppers', rounds that put an assailant down immediately and reliably with decently-placed shots.

For self defense, something is better than nothing, but when given a choice, I'll take half the rounds of a typical 9mm in 45ACP.

[snake]

It's a .44 Rem mag for around the "ponderosa" here at home. For my interstate travels it's a S&W 9mm.

[Scout]

Also remember to test any ammo you intend to use for self defence. A JHP may look really nice after being shot into ballistics gelatain, but put some denim and cloth over it to simulate clothing and it may clog the tip and prevent it from expanding. Water jugs are a good test medium, with approximatley 2 inches of water representing 1 inch of ballistics gelatain. So to reach the FBI's 12in minumum penetration requirement, it must penetrate 24in of water, or four 6in jugs and into the fith. A JHP that doesn't expand is no better than an FMJ.

Examples can be found at www.theboxotruth.com

As a side note, you may wonder why the FBI has a 12in minimum. The average human torso is 9in front to back. A layer of skin is worth approximatley 2in of flesh, so thats the equivalent of 11in of ballistics gelatain. So 12in gives you enough penetration to make sure the round reaches the vital organs, and leaves an exit wound, which greatly increases the speed at which a person will bleed out.

"Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed."-Urey W. Patrick, FBI Firearms Training Institute

With that in mind, you want something that will leave a big exit hole, and will cut as many arteries and organs as possible. Winchester Ranger seems to be the best. The .45 load expands to over an inch, and has large jagged talons that rip through anything in their path. Winchester SXT is supposed to be close, if not identical to it.

[OzarkMtnDaredevil]

Scout, I take it that you're a student of Terminal Ballistics as am I. :)

[Scout]

Yes I am. I don't like to take what I read at face value. I compare it to the findings of the most well-respected organizations I can think of, and read about actual shootings. I then add in my own experience and make my conclusion. I'm thinking of doing a write-up about the 7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45 debate, because the people on this forum seem to be able to keep things civil.

[docsoos]

I'm thinking of doing a write-up about the 7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45 debate, because the people on this forum seem to be able to keep things civil.

I look forward to the write-up. Always can learn something new, or maybe just food for thought.

And, as for the "civil" part, most everyone here (except for a few "La-Z-Boy Rambos" that seem to know more about ballistics than the manufacturers and the military) is very interested in other's viewpoints and civil in their posts. Can't spank 'em in public, the mods might get testy. ;D

DocSoos

[Oblio13]

I carried a .45 for 20 years in the Marines. I am issued a .40 now as a federal officer. I usually carry a 9mm as a personal CCW.

Urban myth says that .45 ACP hits like the Hammer of Thor, 9mm Parabellum is inadequate, and .40 S&W is some sort of compromise.

In reality, with the recent advances in bonded bullet technology, they are statistically identical in terms of real-world performance. All deliver, depending on the load, somewhere between 300 and 500 foot pounds of energy. (Which is about the energy of a thrown baseball, by the way.)

As for diameter, of course bigger is better within reason. But the unexpanded diameter of a .40 S&W is less than 5 hundredths of an inch greater than a 9mm. A .45 ACP is 96 thousandths greater. Do you think you'll hit many more blood vessels and vital organs with that extra 45 thousandths or 96 thousandths? Remember that you're giving up magazine capacity to get it.

One of my closest friends is an emergency room physician as well as a shooting enthusiast, and we've had many conversations about this. He says he can't tell a difference in wounding effects. His standard joke when someone really presses him about which is the most lethal is to say "a shotgun".

The military uses full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets because they're limited by the Geneva convention, and concerned with different tactical problems than us civilians. They routinely shoot through helmets, body armor, walls and vehicles at relatively long distances. Civilians, on the other hand, are usually at or near contact range in a defensive encounter, and would have a hard time convincing a jury that a fellow a ways off and on the other side of a wall was a threat.

So: Any of the three calibers with modern, good quality bonded hollow-points will perform about as well as the next, and as well as a .357 Sig or any other reasonable defensive handgun cartridge. Magazine capacity tips the scales for me. I'd rather have a 9mm or a .40 than a .45, because ammunition is like tokens at the arcade: The more you have, the longer you can play.


9mm Parabellum: 300-500 foot/pounds of energy, .356 bullet diameter

.40 S&W: 400-500 foot/pounds of energy, .4005 bullet diameter

.45ACP: 400-500 foot/pounds of energy, .452 bullet diameter

[Teg]

Some good info there but to clarify, we do use FMJ in the combat zone, but while in garrison and conducting LE duties we use hollowpoints (in handguns) these days, early on with the 9mm we noted problems with overpenetration using FMJ which as you all know can be a real problem in a populated area.

[ldsparamedic]

Lanark,
I think you should go to a range and rent all 3 guns and shoot them. See what fits your hand best and what you are comforatable with. I have owned a .45, but I may have well just threw the gun at the target for all I could hit with it. I couldn't get used to the recoil and anticipated each shot. I owned a Glock 26 (sub compact 9mm) and loved it. I currently have a Glock 22 (regular size 40) and enjoy shooting it, and am accurate. I also have a Glock 23 (compact 40) which I will be using for concealed carry.
There is a saying that goes something like: "It is better to hit with a .22 than to miss with a .45" If you put the bullet in the right place it will take an attacker down. The important thing to do is practice, practice, practice! You should plan on between 500 and 1000 rounds to get the feel of your new gun and see how it handles.

[Rick]

I was reminded of a (somewhat dated) quip by a famous Texas Lawman. Somebody asked him why he carried a .45. He replied "Because they don't make a .46"

The FBI did a study a while back on handgun effectiveness. As I recollect they were real big on bullet placement, especially into the CNS (brain and upper spinal cord). Anything else was unpredictable. A person might or might not drop with a shot to the heart, but a shot to the brain stopped 'em cold, so to speak.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[nhlivefreeordie]

but a shot to the brain stopped 'em cold, so to speak.



Yeah but that usually leads to a gross flopping and thrashing display...

[MrNobody]

New guy giving his two cents....... if you are going with GLOCK I would go with .40, then later on pick up a 9mm & .357sig barrel from Lone Wolf Dist. for $99 each and have best of all worlds. The .40 & .357 sig use the same mags. then all you have to do is pickup a 9mm mags. :meeting:

[macgeoghagen]

The biggest that you can handle accurately.

[NotSoFast]

After I bought my first pistol, a Glock 17, I started looking seriously at performance of the popular calibers. What I found was that the .40 S&W had more energy than all but the magnum calibers depending on the ammo manufacturer you choose for your carry ammo.

Yes, I know that shot placement is the most important thing to pay attention to. But that is just one part of the entire story. All of it has to be there for it to do the job you want it to do. And that means practice with a gun that you like and that fits your hand well and doesn't have more kick than you want to handle.

So I eventually bought the Glock 35 in .40 S&W. I also bought a 9mm barrel to fit it along with a .22lr conversion kit. That gives me the versatility I wanted on one frame.

If you have a range nearby where you can rent and shoot various handguns, I'd suggest you go try them out before you buy.

Chuck

[randallhilton]

For what it's worth, I carry a Glock 27 (sub compact .40sw) mostly because at the time it was pretty much the biggest round in the smallest frame which would fit in my pocket. Local law enforcement had been using .40 for awhile so I figures this round has some merit.

I've seen a bunch of great info on this thread but nothing that I would say is compelling enough to make me want to switch.

For me, one of the most important selection factors would be the availability of a 22lr conversion kit. Running thousands of rounds helped me with target acquisition, trigger control and accuracy. (I always finish off a session with a few clips of the real deal)

[NotSoFast]

Shooting the real deal is important, especially shooting your HD/SD ammo. While I shoot reduced load target ammo, I always shoot at least a clip of SD ammo for muscle memory.

[rice paddy daddy]

For self defense, use a rifle. Handguns are a crap shoot since they are relatively low powered. Of course, when out and about a rifle would draw too much attention. Therefore, with a handgun you need to make a bunch of holes to let out enough body fluid to cause rapid incapacitation. 9,40,and 45 will all work if you remember what John Connerr says: Don't just shoot until you think he's dead, shoot until HE thinks he's dead.

[NotSoFast]

Or a short barrel shotgun.

Each gun has its limitations and shortcomings. Working inside a building at short range, a rifle is at a disadvantage if you're not well trained for that kiind of work. Besides, it's hard to CCW a rifle.

[rice paddy daddy]

I don't have a concealed carry permit, but in Florida you can pack heat in your vehicle without one. Glove box: 357 mag snubbie with Remington Golden Saber 125 gr JHP. Console: RIA 45 acp 1911 plus 2 extra magazines, all loaded with Winchester Silvertip 185 gr JHP's. During the presidential campaign last year I augmented that with an M1 Carbine with 8 magazines stuck under my flip up back seat. (I work on the edge of the Jacksonville ghetto)

[NotSoFast]

In the PRK (Peoples Republik of Kalifornia) some law enforcement officers interpret (incorrectly I may add) loaded to be a handgun locked in the trunk of the car and a loaded magazine in the rear seat. Fortunately I don't have long before I move back to a free state.

[Mad_Professor]

I'm not sure if any of you are traditional ML hunter/shooters? A soft lead PRB will EXPAND to twice it's size and wreak all kinds of damage upon the target, all the energy is expended INSIDE the target.

A 45 ACP is a slow round, but if you shoot a pure lead one it will act much like a PRB. doing damage to the target, not to what it goes through......

I'd be happy with a big fat 240 gr of, pure lead, no jacket.

If you doubt me, hunt game with a 50 cal PRB that is 187 gr. Deer too 100 yds, bear at 50.

[rice paddy daddy]

I'm not sure if any of you are traditional ML hunter/shooters? A soft lead PRB will EXPAND to twice it's size and wreak all kinds of damage upon the target, all the energy is expended INSIDE the target.

A 45 ACP is a slow round, but if you shoot a pure lead one it will act much like a PRB. doing damage to the target, not to what it goes through......

I'd be happy with a big fat 240 gr of, pure lead, no jacket.

If you doubt me, hunt game with a 50 cal PRB that is 187 gr. Deer too 100 yds, bear at 50.
Amen, brother. Nothin says hello like a moderate speed large hunk-o-lead. Especially a semi wadcutter, like the Keith, that literally cuts thru flesh.
The 45 Colt (sometimes called long colt) loaded with black powder will push a 250 gr slug almost 1000 fps. That's why it was the most powerful handgun in the world from it's introduction in 1873 until the advent of the 357 magnum in 1935. You can buy modern loads that equal or exceed this, and using a Ruger Blackhawk you can fire loads from Buffalo Bore (or roll your own) that are as powerful as a full house 44 magnum. Blackhawks and Freedom Arms only, all others will blow.
Not very suitable for public concealed carry because of very slow reload time, they are extremely viable homestead weapons for those of us who live in the boonies. I love the sexy beauty of the old Colt Single Action Army with it's high Fondle Factor (hey, I never claimed to be normal, folks) and have Uberti and Pietta clones in 45 Colt (several) and 357 mag (one), plus an Old Model Blackhawk 357 Flat Top and a New Model 45 Convertible. Oh, and a 44 mag Super Blackhawk. Not to mention the 22's.
When I'm out and about on the homestead I open wear at least one, sometimes two, and in my sock drawer for late night noises is the 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with Corbon +P 200 gr JHP rated at 1150 fps. They look like flying ashtrays.
What is this thing called Glock?:cool:

[whtdragn]

Nice info in this group of posting and I will add a small amount more. I would have to consider the makarov a very good defense gun 9x18 is a good caliber and can still be had pretty cheap. Also it seems to be a very easy gun to shoot for the people that I have turned on to them.

I would also have to say I like the 45 colt as a good solid round but that is one that most will have to reload because of cost.

The main point however is if you can hit the mark with it you can be deadly with any round out there.

[4rum]

Welp ... gimmie an inch an' I'll take a mile... since we are a little off the original choices ... for a good solid pistol at a more than reasonable price, go for a CZ52 and load it with this.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/clik-it/762x25125grSierraHP.jpg

That expanded bullet on the right is a Sierra .125 gr. HP #2020. It's designed for the .30-30. With careful attention to seating depth, it runs flawlessly through my CZ52. I have had NO fail to function or fail to fire issues.

The bullet on the left is Sierra's 85 gr. soft point. Both bullets were fired from the same range (7 yards) into the same bundle of soaked phone books bound with duct tape.

The #2020 does stabalize to at least 25 yards. All go through the target point first, no key holing. Haven't tried it any farther than that yet. Shoots pretty darn good too. I do have pics of targets, but they don't really prove anything on a message board.

There is NO loading data for a bullet this heavy in a CZ52. I started very low and worked up very slowly. I have a dependable round that feeds through the magazine and weapon, and I will gladly vouch for 'minute of chest cavity' at home defense yardage.

[4rum]

Huey, Duey an' Luey ...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/clik-it/hueydueynluey01-21-07.jpg