Handgun for a lady

[rivahmom]

My husband wants me to get a CCW permit. I have fired shotguns and rifles but never a handgun. What would you recommend for ease of use and ammo availability for a lady.

[kawalekm]

If you don't have much experience with handguns than I would recommend you a short-barreled 38 special revolver. Of course, get pearl handle grips for it to look lady-like.
Michael

[rice paddy daddy]

My wife likes to keep a handgun in her pocket when out on the property, and in her truck when driving. She used to carry my Colt Mod 1903 32 Auto pocket pistol, but felt she wanted more "stopping power". Due to a disability, she cannot stand a lot of recoil. Based on this criteria, I bought her a Charter Arms 38 Special DAO (aka "hammerless") snubbie for her birthday. I thought about a Kel Tech 380 automatic, but the revolver is quicker to bring into action.
She likes it. When we were younger, she used to fire my Colt 45 ACP and is quite good with one.
A small size Glock in 9MM may be good for you. The trouble with a 38 or 357 magnum snubbie is they only hold 5 rounds, an auto pistol will hold more.
I have a Charter Arms Bull Dog 44 Special hammerless snubbie that gives me a warm sense of security. ;D
Is there a range that you go to? Most guys will let you try their weapon to see how you like it.
380 is about the bare minimum caliber wise, 38 is better, 9 mm is acceptable, 40 is even better, 45 is great.
As Clint Smith once said: "No one who has ever been in a gun fight has wished for a smaller gun or less ammo."

[rivahmom]

Thank you for your suggestions. I have not been to a gun range in a while. I'll have to make a trip to see which one fits the best.

[AARTY]

I agree that a .38 revolver would be a great CCw for you. When you do find the "right" CCW I would advise you to NOT carry your weapon in a handbag or purse but to have it physically on your person. The reasoning behind my advice is a simple fact that you can be separated from your handbag or purse much easier. I do not recommend a semi-auto pistol for those new to handguns for the simple reason that there are more steps involved in their operation. once you feel more comfortable with the revolver I encourage you to get a pistol, maybe a .22 for plinking or maybe something more along the lines of a Personal defense weapon. My first wife was a revolver person, and although very accurate with my pistols, was much more accurate with her revolvers especially her dads 2" .357magnum. Let us know how the search goes and please drop back by if you have more questions!

[Stinger]

:) Yes, I'll agree that a revolver is the right way to go. However I'll disagree that a small revolver is appropriate for a woman. Small revolvers are difficult to hold onto, difficult to hit with, and (importantly) difficult to practice with, too.
It, also, doesn't make much sense to purchase a 38 special when a 357 magnum will handle both 38 special AND 357 magnum cartridges. *A 357 magnum gives the user a better choice of ammo, greater availability, and improved lethality.
I've trained several women, including my own wife, in pistolcraft. 'Recoil' is a perceived phenomenon; and, this perception varies from individual to individual. It is something the shooter learns how to manage; and, proper training and practice go a long way toward teaching a new shooter how to turn recoil into a, 'tool' rather than something that has to be dealt with or overcome.

With regular practice I've got my own wife double-action firing 6" groups on 12 yard targets with (almost) boring consistency! I couldn't have, so easily, brought her to this level of performance unless I'd first given her the right revolver and encouraged her to regularly practice with it.

5 rounds is NOT a handicap for a new shooter - Missing the target is a handicap! In my experience (all 50 years of it) I've found semiautomatics to be far more dangerous to new shooters than any revolver ever could be. I know two people who have been shot with, 'empty' semiautomatics; and, on occasion, I've had students almost make the same mistake while I was present on the line. *

Every woman I've ever worked with has complained about the weight of the handgun while carrying it. *Nobody, though, complains about a handgun's weight while actually using the handgun! *The majority of the women I know do object to carrying a handgun on their body because, among other things, it makes them (Ready?) look fat.

On the other hand, I know numerous women who carry their revolvers inside a handbag. It seems to be a, 'female thing' that I no longer object to; I mean, consider the alternative to, 'looking fat'! As long as I'm able to get a woman to finally carry a handgun, I leave the particular choice of, 'how' to carry up to her.

I bought my own wife (or, at least, I sort 'a let her pick out) a Ruger SP-101 with a 3" barrel and hammer spur. I steered her in this direction because I wanted her to buy a revolver she could easily handle and practice with. The 3" barrel is easier to aim and more manageable during double-action firing. (The only way to correctly combat shoot any revolver!) The hammer spur allows her to aim more accurately at longer distances and at other things besides humanoid targets.

After a little more thought she added two Bianchi Speed Strips (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=243389), and two HKS Speedloaders (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=466721&t=11082005) to the items she brings to the range. I've, also, seen to it that she always carries two Speed Strips with her everywhere she goes. Part of her regular practice involves quickly reloading the revolver.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the progress she's made and how well she handles a handgun. If we had to do it all over again, it would be the same Ruger SP-101.

Ruger SP-101 w/ Hogue Monogrip (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=344380). Usually carried in a DeSantis, 'Gunnysack' (http://www.desantisholster.com/gunny-sacks--belly-bands--gun-caddies.html) or Kramer pocket holster (http://www.kramerleather.com/).

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9549/josnewrugerrc1.jpg

Finally, I highly recommend professional quality handgun training for all new shooters. My wife went through NRA Women's Training (http://www.nrahq.org/women/); and, after almost being carjacked, took to daily CCW carry like a duck takes to water! ;D

[MYellowRose]

I liked reading the replies on this thread. Seems like it got more and better info than was offered to me when I posted a similar question. Oh well, at least I've got the info now.

[madmac]

Stinger you gave some real sound advice. The SP 101 is a good choice as well. Enough weight to make recoil less noticeable. My wife started with a .22 pistol and now shoots my glock 22 but her favorite handgun is my little charter arms undercover. I carry it as a backup gun on duty but don't care much for it other than it is light.

[Stinger]

:) Thanks for the compliment! My experience has been that all of the small (titanium/scandium) short barreled hammerless revolvers have wonderful in-store, 'sex appeal'; are very comfortable to carry and, at the same time, absolutely miserable to practice with and (consequently) shoot straight. If a user can't shoot a handgun straight when he has to, then, as far as I'm concerned he shouldn't be carrying a handgun in the first place.

Furthermore, if you're basically a one handgun owner you should never buy or attempt to carry a handgun that is difficult to practice with. ‘Why?’ Because the first thing that's going to happen if you ever really have to use a handgun in self-defense is that your reflexes and shooting skills are going to go all to Hell - real fast!

Sure, some of us are pistoleros; and the above remarks do not apply to us because our pistol shooting skill sets have become deeply ingrained through years of repetitive practice and the thousands and thousands of rounds that have been fired. Most people, however, are NOT pistoleros; they are, instead, just ordinary people with handguns whose chief interest is to be able to defend themselves against any possible violent harm.

I just finished reading one of NYC's recent SOP reports on police use of handguns in city gunfights. All I can say is, 'Wow!' *ONLY FIFTEEN OUT OF EVERY HUNDRED ROUNDS HIT ANYWHERE ON THE TARGET! (And Miami's recently published figures are no different!) This should tell people that if you ain't regularly practicing with your handgun then you should be carrying it, either.

Where small handguns are concerned, I know strong heavily experienced gunmen who will start but will not finish shooting a box of ammo from that very expensive little revolver they carry in an outside pocket. *(Because their hands start to get sore!)

My own BUG is a little Beretta, 'Alley Cat'. I actually spent 3 years hemming and hawing over which BUG to purchase before I finally settled on the Beretta. The reason? It's got a wide backstrap and is very easy for me to transition to after I come off the Glock! Because the Beretta’s grip similarly fills my hand I can place all 8 rounds from this little 32 acp into a target the size of a 6 inch pie plate from at, or inside, 15 yards.

Competent pistol shooting is (by degree) a, 'degenerative physical skill'. If you don't regularly practice, your hit probability (score) is sure to decline. This is true for everyone, including me! When I slack off and don’t regularly practice with my BUG, at least, one or two of my first several shots will be a, ‘flyer’. (NOT a good thing to allow to happen with a little 32 acp!)

The only way to develop AND maintain the reflexes and focus necessary to consistently hit well with your carry pistol of choice is to practice regularly with it and learn how to smoothly, 'rock 'n roll' with the front sight and muzzle flashes. The best pistol shooting I've ever done in my life (and, I've done more than my fair share) required me to fire between 1,200 and 1,500 live rounds a month; and, I'm not even going to guess at how many dry fire rounds I've clicked off everyday?

To me, one of life's great truisms is that the world is full of people who are carrying handguns that are closer to, 'self-defense placebos' than they are to actual self-defense weapons. You've got to have (or be able to develop) an acquired, 'pistol combat focus' - which I will describe as a single-minded, 'front sight fixation' along with a preconditioned (deliberate) ignorance of muzzle recoil and flash - and thoroughly conditioned proprioceptive reflexes.

Different pistol combat instructors teach these techniques in different ways: Some call it, 'front sight acquisition'; others call it, 'target focus'. To me it doesn't matter what the phenomenon is called as long as the student is practicing regularly and hitting the target.

If you're using a semiautomatic pistol (with other than a DAK or LEM trigger) you aim by either proprioceptive recall or by visually focused target acquisition, and, 'press' the trigger through until the shot (not the sear) breaks. Then you consciously index your trigger finger back to the reset point. It’s, ‘press’ and slightly reflex your trigger finger, forward, just ahead of the face of the trigger. *‘Press’ and slightly reflex your trigger finger forward, again, stopping just ahead of the trigger’s face. Bang! Bang! Bang!

If you're using a double-action revolver you do the same thing; except, this time, you, 'pull' the trigger ALL THE WAY THROUGH and then allow the revolver's heavier trigger reset spring to push your trigger finger forward to the reset point: It's, 'pull' and, 'relax'; 'pull' and, 'relax'. Except, here, your trigger finger should remain in constant contact with the trigger’s face. Bang! Bang! Bang!

By employing the correct technique for whichever handgun you're using, if you're got the right sight picture and are working the trigger correctly then all of your shots will impact where they should on the target.

The only way I know for someone to do this consistently is to regularly practice; and, purchasing the right handgun, up front, goes a long way towards spending, both, your practice and your carry time well. No handgun should ever be allowed to become a, 'self-defense placebo'; but, after years of close observation, I know that a very significant number of carry sidearms – and especially women’s carry handguns - will never be anything but ... . :D

(Which is the specific reason, ‘Why’ another thing my wife got when she purchased her new Ruger SP-101 was a six pack of A-Zoom snap caps (http://www.lymanproducts.com/azoom/index.htm).)

[gwhilikerz]

I have never been much for the "front sight fixation" If you are doing some sort of target shooting then the front sight is of great importance. But my theory of why most shots fired from trained police in a combat situation are misses is that they are so fixated on the front sight that they see nothing else.
I have always favored a point shoot system. You pick a spot on the target (very, very important), then you point the gun instinctively at that spot. Kinda like pointing your finger at something. To me it is much faster and if the target moves your eyes move with it.
This works better for me, but defensive handgun shooting is so important that everyone should use what works for them each and every time.

[flatwater]

Geezzzzz everyone hold on a minute. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the words lady and hand gun. Doesn't something magical happen when a lady picks up a hand gun? :o :o :o
flatwater

[rivahmom]

Well guys and gals thanks for the advice. After much consideration and many trials I decided to get a CZ52. It fit my hand perfectly, has little recoil, and it kicks butt. I can also pull it apart and put it back togeather easily. The one I got had the cast iron peices removed and replaced with hardened steel so I feel confident it will last a while. Now I have to practice with it so I don't embarrass hubby ;).

[Stinger]

I have never been much for the "front sight fixation" If you are doing some sort of target shooting then the front sight is of great importance. But my theory of why most shots fired from trained police in a combat situation are misses is that they are so fixated on the front sight that they see nothing else.

Well, know what? I didn't start doing these things just yesterday morning. If you don't skillfully control the pistol's backstrap AND carefully watch your front sight, then, you're NOT going to be able to do THIS (http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9513/1rapid16yardtargetcq6.jpg) at 16 yards just as fast as you can pull the trigger.

My own theory on, 'Why' so many people miss so often in a pistol fight is almost dialectically opposite from the above quoted remark.

First, unless a pistol shooter has properly trained proprioceptive reflexes, forget about point shooting accurately. It's possible to miss at 5 yards just as easily as it is at 8 yards. Without the right set of acquired reflexes any hits are only going to be, 'dumb luck'. (Which is, pretty much, what's actually taking place on a national level, right now, anyway!)

Second, most misses occur because a pistol shooter is, in fact, watching the entire target instead of rapidly, 'indexing' his front sight off a specific point on the target.

It might be a little foolish of me to offer these insights to a general internet audience; I mean, after all, it cost me thousands of expended pistol rounds before I was finally able to figure it all out for myself. ;)

[gwhilikerz]

Well, know what? I didn't start doing these things just yesterday morning. If you don't skillfully control the pistol's backstrap AND carefully watch your front sight, then, you're NOT going to be able to do THIS (http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9513/1rapid16yardtargetcq6.jpg) at 16 yards just as fast as you can pull the trigger.

My own theory on, 'Why' so many people miss so often in a pistol fight is almost dialectically opposite from the above quoted remark.

First, unless a pistol shooter has properly trained proprioceptive reflexes, forget about point shooting accurately. It's possible to miss at 5 yards just as easily as it is at 8 yards. Without the right set of acquired reflexes any hits are only going to be, 'dumb luck'. (Which is, pretty much, what's actually taking place on a national level, right now, anyway!)

Second, most misses occur because a pistol shooter is, in fact, watching the entire target instead of rapidly, 'indexing' his front sight off a specific point on the target.

It might be a little foolish of me to offer these insights to a general internet audience; I mean, after all, it cost me thousands of expended pistol rounds before I was finally able to figure it all out for myself. ;)
Sorry, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I use what works for me. But I will say the method you talk about does work better at "16yds", no doubt about that. But just how many self defense situations that an average citizen may face require 16 yd. accuracy. I think most attacks take place much closer than that. 16 yds is a long way when you are sitting on the sofa and someone breaks thru the front door. A car jacker is only a few feet away at most. A physical attack on the streets is almost never at 16 yds.
I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all but there is a BIG difference in skill levels between someone who regularly shoots pistol matches and the average person who carries.

[Stinger]

Sorry, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I use what works for me. But I will say the method you talk about does work better at "16 yrds", no doubt about that. But just how many self defense situations that an average citizen may face require 16 yd. accuracy. I think most attacks take place much closer than that. 16 yrds. is a long way when you are sitting on the sofa and someone breaks thru the front door. A carjacker is only a few feet away at most. A physical attack on the streets is almost never at 16 yrds.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all but there is a BIG difference in skill levels between someone who regularly shoots pistol matches and the average person who carries.

:) It’s OK! Neither do I think you’re, ‘stirring the pot’. This sort of thinking is very typical of what I hear all the time. Because the vital necessity to practice and become intimately familiar with your carry piece is frequently overlooked during the process of picking out a new CCW handgun, I decided to carry the subject of this thread beyond its original premise. (I hope not too far.)

The most comfortable and easy to carry pistol ever invented isn’t going to help you to survive or give you a tactical advantage over the other guy if you’re the one with the snubby 38, and he’s the one with the, ‘Glock Fo-Tee’. (Unless you’re heavily practiced and very good, you’re going to be fighting for your life while at a significant tactical disadvantage!)

Whether a majority of shooters consciously realize it or not many - if not most – people who carry handguns rely upon just pointing their gun hand at the target and commencing to fire. (I think it has something to do with the sudden stress of violent combat.) *

Look, there’s, ‘fear response’ and there’s, ‘anger response’. They’re NOT the same thing. In, ‘fear response’ there’s tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and loss of fine motor skill(s). In, ‘anger response’ there’s single-minded focus, deep breathing and long slow breaths, ignorance of trauma and pain, and what I will describe as an, ‘overwhelming obsession’ to use your handgun with maximum efficiency. During my life I’ve experienced both sets of physiological phenomena; so, better than many, I know the difference between the two.

Contrary to popular perception the more common, ‘tunnel vision’ effect doesn’t necessarily focus on the desired point-of-impact; instead it tends to focus, more widely, upon the entire threat, itself; and, this is where things really start to go wrong! A skilled CQB pistolero knows to always look at exactly where he wants to hit; and, his body knows exactly how to make the shots go where he’s looking.

For most people, however, the problem is that even if someone gets the first psychological parts right, he still has to have to the other physical skill sets necessary in order to make the bullets impact at exactly where he’s looking. Simply stated this brings things down to: practice, preconditioned reflexes, and that intense exclusionary, ‘combat focus’ I’ve already mentioned.

I’ve frequently read that police gunfighting analysts believe Tueller’s, ‘21 foot rule’ is dangerously inadequate and should be expanded all the way out to 30, or even 40 feet. (Some lawyer, somewhere, must be watching this situation with, ‘baited breath’!) Know what? I couldn’t agree more! In my opinion 21 feet is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM distance a gunman should wait at before making a conscious decision to begin firing.

Let’s not forget that, in truth, handguns – all handguns – are actually lousy self-defense weapons! No doubt about it: All handguns are capable of killing; but, all handguns are, also, highly sporadic at immediately STOPPING a violent and determined target, cold, in his tracks! This brings us back to the necessities to: (1) choose the right handgun, (2) practice often, (3) become intimately familiar with your chosen pistol, and (4) be able to focus your shots into the desired point-of-impact by means of your proprioceptive physical reflexes.

Hence, these are the principal reasons, ‘Why’ neither my wife nor I carry small handguns as primary self-defense weapons.

Now, before I close this out, let me offer you one more observation from more than 50 years of doing this sort of thing. There’s the world of the courtroom; and, there’s the world of the street. These two worlds are NOT the same thing. Where armed self-defense is concerned you, first, have to survive on the street BEFORE you get that second opportunity to prevail before a grand jury or survive inside a courtroom.

In recent years I keep coming across the general premise that the farther away a target is the less justification there is for using your handgun and shooting. *(Interesting premise! I don’t think it has resulted from any real world combat experience, though.) Now, I’m not a lawyer; and, I’m certainly not qualified to offer legal advice. I do know a thing or two about gunfighting, though; and I’ll tell you this:
(1) In a gunfight there is absolutely no such thing as enough, ‘reaction time’. (If you wait you’re, probably, going to lose!) (2) Once a situation turns, ‘imminently threatening’ (deadly) the last person to act places himself at a distinct disadvantage. A necessary corollary to each of the preceding statements is that (3) a savvy pistolero should never allow an adversary to begin lethal action from within the adversary’s own comfort zone – Never!

What do I mean? I mean that if the other guy is practiced and comfortable to begin firing at you from inside 3 yards, then, you should be practiced and comfortable enough to open an engagement from 5, or more, yards out.

(Many years ago I read an account by Chuck Taylor where he told a story about a gunman who took out two machinegun wielding terrorists with a puny 1911 pistol. The pistol shooter was able to do this simply because he, ‘stepped inside’ the terrorists’, ‘moment of opportunity’ and used his pistol to prevent both of them from being able to bring their superior weapons into play. I thought this was a very good story; and, I have never forgotten it.)

As you might imagine I am heavily practiced with handguns at: 10, 12, and 15 yards; and, I believe there is considerable merit to this sort of CQB preparation. From my own point-of-view, the closer you allow the other guy to get to your body before you decide to act, the more danger you are in and the lower your chances are to survive a deadly handgun encounter.

(In addition to choosing the right handgun and learning how to shoot well with it, everyone who carries a CCW piece for personal protection should, also, practice how to shout, ‘STOP!’ ‘Don’t come any closer!’ ‘I’m afraid of you!’ ‘I have a gun; and, I’m ready to defend myself!’)

Remember: A handgun should never be allowed to become a, ‘pocket placebo’. What looks or sounds good in a gun store isn’t necessarily the same handgun that’s going to effectively save your life out on the street. More often than not, pointing that comfortable little handgun at an advancing street target and anxiously pulling the trigger is not going to stop a determined threat from successfully doing you irreparable harm. If you carry, then, you should also regularly practice – Period!

First, it’s got to be the right handgun; and, second, your mind AND body must also know how to employ AND use that right handgun effectively. All of these things will be so much easier to accomplish if you’re, either, experienced or just plain lucky enough to begin with a proper choice of pistol in the first place.

Finally, yes, there is a big difference between someone who regularly practices with a handgun, and someone else who merely carries a pistol around with him all the time. The former is an example of a person with a useful tool on his belt while the latter example is that of a person with a, ‘good luck charm’ in his pocket. ;)

[FotoTomas]

My wife has had very limited experience with handguns and never wanted to pursue the hobby. I was a cop, police firearms instructor and occasional competition shooter. We went along merrily this way for years.

Foe some reason she decided she wanted to learn and have a gun at hand in the house. I still do not know why she had the change of heart.

I felt she would benefit from a day at the range to decide what she felt comfortable with and from there we would go on.

I took a small .38 model 638, a larger Model 19 combat magnum, GLOCK 19 and 26, a Beretta 92D, SIG 228, and a Springfield M1911 MilSpec.

A selection of ammo was on hand and she warmed up with the Ruger .22/45 and was introduced to the basics.

I believed the revolvers would be a better choice and the K frame model 19 would be a great choice for her. She hated it. The trigger action was ok but coupled with the stiffer recoil was a turn off.

She shot them all but did not like the M1911's hammer back style and the manual safety that was necessary for safe operation. The other semi autos were better for her but had their problems. The SIG 228 was the one she liked the grip best of but she hated the decock lever and the trigger action. The GLOCKS (my favorites) were the worst in her opinion. She preferred the slick slide and no need to decock but the grip and trigger just did not rock her boat. She ended up choosing the Beretta 92D for the simplicity and the ease of manipulation of the slide. The lack of the extra levers or need to decock were her preferences. A revolver with a magazine is an apt description of the action. Mine has a magazine safety as well and that was a good point for her and her plans for storage.

Right now the Beretta is "her" house gun and if I want to play with one I have to go get another. :D

[martialcanine45cal]

There is no magical firearm or caliber for men or women, regardless of size or experience. My 60 year old, smaller stature mother chose, carries, and performs well with a Glock 36SF in .45ACP after trying out a broad range of options.

As I said in another thread, try as many platforms and mainstream calibers as you can, keep an open mind, and select your carry option based on the combination that you can shoot comfortably, competently, and affordably. Capacity is secondary.

[jlwilson]

I'll second the Ruger SP101. You can practice with .38s and then carry .357s. Double action revolvers are a great way to start as there is little to go wrong. Generally, if you pull the trigger the gun will fire. With semi-autos, people typically need a little more practice especially to clear the stoppages that sometimes do occur. Competition shooting in a sport like IDPA will help with shooting skills, safety skills and understandiing what self-defense scenarios can be like. And it can be really fun to meet like-minded people. In today's crazy world, I think it's really important for women to have some firearms knowledge and be able to protect themselves.

Joyce