Point shooting

[Rick]

Tried out a new technique the other day - point shooting.

Basically, you shoot without looking at the sights; you focus only on the target. The weapon (Springfield XD .45 ACP in this instance) is held in a natural cross between a Weaver and Isocoles stance, with the sights about 2 inches below the line of sight.

It is a close range technique. I was practicing at 21 feet and getting all (well, mostly) center mass hits. The trick is to focus on each and every shot, but the focusing goes quickly and the shots get downrange very fast. I believe the human eye can discretely focus something like 8 times per second.

The advantages are that it is very fast and you don't have to pick up the front sight, or any sight picture. As the range increases, you have to revert back to aimed fire; this is a close range prospect.

Fairbairn and Sykes wrote about this technique from their police experiences in Shanghai.

[jsb1949]

In 1969 while in Infantry training we were instructed in something simler to this called the "quick kill method". We used daisy BB rifles and before the instruction was over could hit Dime thrown in air. Hard to believe but it works. Six weeks later in Nam with M 16 was called "pray and spray"

[hunter63]

Have always been better at "snap shooting" while hunting and even shooting various hand guns.

This method was taught to the S.S. using the Luger/ mauser hand guns in Germany, or so I've been told.

Most hand guns, the stock sights are a joke anyway, unless you go for optics of some sort.

[Farmer]

My skepticism meter just pegged.

I would think that it would take an AWFUL lot of practice to shoot accurately like that, and then I'd be worried that in a stress situation I'd lose the control I'd need.

Add to that the fact that I use 1911's which, if they're not gripped properly, can malfunction.

Might be fun to try but I'll rely on my sights for my nice tight groups, thank you very much.

;)

[calliel]

Louis L'Amour wrote that it is the only way to shoot..... ;D

Perhaps you just have to be good in the first place? DH can do it well that way, but he shoots quite a bit and gets mixed results. We are going to try it when we get more practiced. For close up, what else can you do?

[ozarksnick]

It's natural, that's why it's so easy. And you practice everytime you point your finger at something, that's why it's called point shooting.

When you are gripping a handgun properly (correct me if I'm wrong here though) the pistol should be pointing exactly where you would be pointing if you were standing there pointing your finger.

[ZOOBEAR]

I disagree. Very seldom does your finger point at a given spot, it points to a general area. In training we use a laser to prove this myth.
Point shooting can be a very important tool if the distance is close and you have no time to use your sights, or if you can invest the time and ammo to develop this skill. Most people cant.
In the real world point shooting is used when no other options are left. ;)

[Rick]

I agree. If there is time to aim, by all means aim.

But, as Annie would say, a lot of times trouble comes riding up quick and close (and often in the dark). You may not be able to see non-tritium sights or have time to acquire the target.

The trick to point shooting is the have a consistent grip and practice, and to understand it is a fairly close in prospect. Often if you have distance from the aggressor, there is more time to get off an aimed shot.

In addition to practicing in , what is to me, a natural cross between a Weaver and Isosceles stance. I practice shooting from the hip, because a gunfight sometimes devolves quickly into a wrestling match; often it even starts out that way. You really don't have the luxury of assuming the correct position and carefully aligning the sights. A predator likes to pounce from close range on an unsuspecting prey; that's nature.

I am used to using a front sight press ala Col. Cooper out to 10-20 yards, and carefully aligning my sights for longer shots, but inside of 30 feet point shooting has been working out pretty well. I can get a tighter group by carefully aiming, but point shooting is good enough to keep the shots in the black and way faster. You still have to focus on each individual shot.

jsb, when I was just a wee lad, I had a .22 single-shot that I got real good at shooting without consciously aiming, it was uncannily accurate. I couldn't do it now without practicing, but back then I put a lot of rounds down range chasing tin cans around the yard. I think it was some sort of "quick-kill" home brewed method. All I know is I pointed the rifle while looking at the target and the bullet hit where I wanted it to.

Calliel, Louis L'Amour has never steered me wrong. With practice, we could get as good as some of those old-west triggernometrist' were.


;D

edited to add:

just found these:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/Applegate.pdf

[lostone1413]

You figure about 87% of the gun fight happen within 10 feet and the majority of time will be in 5 feet or less. You can forget the two hand grip or using the sights. Like it or not you will point shoot it is best then to learn it. Point shooting can be very accurate to over 10 YARDS. Talk to people who practice Force to Force ask them how many times they use their sights

[5shot]

Found this board while being ping ponged from one site to another on the web.

I favor a Point shooting method that has been around since 1835 or so for close quarters self defense. I call it P&S.

There are a lot of detractors and hoot and holler'ers about it, but it works for me, is very simple, and can be learned and maintained with little or no training and practice.

Works in good light and bad, and can be used for shooting at moving targets, even aerials.

Basically, you place your pointer finger along side the gun, point it at your target, and pull the trigger with your middle finger. Repeat as needed.

Here's a link to an article that discusses and presents info from the 1835 book that supports its use: http://www.pointshooting.com/1835.htm

Common sense is required when using the method. That is, if your finger will be hit by the slide, or if it rests over the ejection port, don't use the method with that gun.

Always practice safe gun handling practices.

[iammarkjones]

I point shoot on a regular basis under 7 yards. One or two handed pretty accurate. Quick as heck. However I shoot ALOT of practice rounds.

[Farmer]

When you're in a pressure situation, you will do what you've trained to do.

Point method is inherently less accurate than a good stance, a good grip and aiming with the sights.

If you want to star in a movie made from a Louis L'Amour novel, then practice the Point method. If you want to be certain of that head or heart shot when TSHTF, practice the method that the experts recommend.

[docsoos]

Interesting views, on both sides of the fence.

I also learned to "point shoot" in the military. It is true, it's not minute-of-angle accurate, but it can be, in a BIG hurry, "minute-of-chest cavity" accurate, when split seconds can mean life or death.

Best analogy for point shooting I've ever heard was taught to me by my Tac Sargeant: imagine how one throws a softball under handed to a catcher. You don't look down your arm while throwing, you concentrate on the catcher's mitt, looking at it ALL the time, and train your arm to throw to that very small target. With practice, most anyone can do it, and the same goes for point shooting.

We don't want to hit the bullseye every time, just the "important parts" that happen to be threatening you at handshake distances, in a big damn hurry. ;D

Practice, Practice, Practice, and BE CAREFUL out there. :D

DocSoos

[rAcErRicK]

Something to keep in mind. A scumbag looking for something to trade for dope is a chest shot. An organized raid, God forbid, but still a possibility, will have body armor and laugh at your handgun load. Therefore requiring a head shot. Quite a difference in practice mentality. I would reccomend practice in both situations, in other words, program your mind to first choice, and second choice, and you have drawing time to decide which is required. First choice would be center of mass, second choice is move up 12". What I'm saying is not to program your mind to center of mass only, alternate from center OM, to head. Does that make sense ?

[Shortstack]

Wouldn't different stratagies be used depending on distance?
I thought that the further away the attacker is the more dependent on sight picture and alignment one becomes. The closer the attacker is the more likely one is to shoot without using the sights.

[madmac]

Point shooting is a last ditch proposal when the guy is just about in your face. Don't count on one shot getting it done either. 80% of all handgun shots are survivable. Most head shots are fatal. Under stress the best shooters will make mistakes. That is why you practice every chance you get. Practice trigger control, front sight alignment and drawing your gun smoothly. Make sure you equipment works for you and you are fimilar with how it works. We train using front sight alignment and only point shoot at the three yard line. We have to account for every round in a situation. The round that misses your intended target may hit one standing behind it. Not good. I know their are different opinions on shooting in the heat of the battle and I would say, use what works. If you point shoot well out to seven yards, great. I don't so I rely on my sights, sometimes just my front sight. Their is more to tactical shooting than meets the eye. If you want to be good you better make a routine of practicing at least once a month, more if you can afford it and have the time. I burn up 200 rounds a month, usually every two weeks I find time to get in a good practice shoot. I start each session out slow and work on form and trigger pull. After a couple mags I get with the program and treat each shot as tough it was the real deal. My quals are always high so I know the practice has paid off. I always work on point shooting at close range as well. The main point is practice.

[Pitdog]

3 types of gunshot wounds are immediately fatal and will stop and attacker cold. First is a shot that severs the cerebral cortex. The second, one that completely removes the head from the body (See # one basically) and close range shotgun blasts to the torso. All other gunshot wounds are not immediately fatal and can allow an attacker to kill or maim you. Science. The primary case in point used in training these days is the FBI battle with the bank robbers in FL, where they killed the first of two bank robbers pretty quick and they inflicted a gunshot wound to the second that was NOT survivable, but he stayed around long enough to shoot six of them. My knife fighting instructor's very own guru who fought in the phillipines against the Japanese said the most danger Japanese soldier was the one they had just administered a killing blow too. The body dumps that massive load of adrenaline to try to get away or kill and a person who is not living but a minute or two longer doesn't fear what you can do to them any longer and they have the strength and motivation to go to ANY length to kill you back.
Train to point shoot. One handed and two. Train on multiple targets too though, at a varied ranges, and pop off double taps. The closest is the most dangerous, attempt to double tap them in the order they are in by range. Remember if they all have guns ut sucks, but they are stressed and nervous too, and probably don't have the amount of knowledge, practice and training that you do. Also remember that you will shoot and fight exactly the way you train, keep other people around that know what they are doing to steer you in the right direction, don't let pride keep you thinking that you know the right way or enough. Pride kills.
Case in point. Police officer A trained with a revolver, and always dumped his brass in his hand and leaned over to dump it in a bucket. NO MATTER WHAT he did this. The gunfight came and he was behind a car, he dumped his brass in his hand and leaned out to drop it in the can that was there, and he was killed. Luckier officer always pumped the shotgun two times before firing, the instructors thought they had broken him of this habit, his time came and was in a gunfight and won. Investigators at the scene found two dept issued shotgun shells laying on the ground where he first exited the car.
Train and practice, but practice and train RIGHT.

[madmac]

Pitdog, that pretty well sums it up. Yes a shotgun is the fastest way to an end. Man I love my shotgun. Your last statement is one of the most important for sure. If you don't shoot for a year you are not up for getting the job done, you got to practice. If you are not sure how to practice correctly, get some with good tactical experience to help you. CCW courses are good but before you sign up, ask around and make sure the instuctor is good at what he does. We had one here that spent most of his time bragging. He knew the law but his training methods were very poor at best.

[Stinger]

:) Point shooting has absolutely nothing to do with watching your sights - Nothing! You point shoot with your, 'proprioceptive reflexes'. If you don't understand this, then, you've never learned how to do it correctly.

Inside 12 yards point shooting is a, 'piece of cake' for me and a number of other people I know. If I push myself (and keep my practice up) I'm able to accurately and reflexively point shoot all the way out to 15 yards - It really ain't that big a deal!

Good point shooting is actually done by, 'feel'. Your muscles and physical reflexes do all the aiming for you. I (almost) feel like telling people how to train for this; but, I just can't bring myself to do it right now.

(Still remember the last stupid argument I got into with a member of this board over this same subject; and I, still, don't feel like sharing.)

If you really want to learn how you could, probably, get around my reluctance to discuss this subject by paying D.R. Middlebrooks $30.00 for his, 'FistFire' book, though! * ;) *

HERE (http://www.tacticalshooting.com/fist-fire.html) *

[docsoos]

:) Point shooting has absolutely nothing to do with watching your sights - Nothing! You point shoot with your, 'proprioceptive reflexes'. If you don't understand this, then, you've never learned how to do it correctly.
*

Agreed. ;D

When I became a Concealed Carry Instructor here in Kentucky about 11 years ago, after I qualified, the other new instructors and I stayed behind for a little extra "range time" for enjoyment, and point shooting bad guys came up as a subject of discussion.

Just to see if I could still do it, I put up a brand-new B-27 silhouette target on the backstop, 7 yards (21 FEET) away. I glanced at the target, CLOSED MY EYES TIGHTLY, drew my Colt 70-Series Combat Commander .45 Auto from it's holster, thumbed down the safety, and emptied the mag as fast as I could pull the trigger, until the slide locked back.

I opened my eyes, and ALL 8 ROUNDS of 230-grain hardball were in the 8-ring or better, center of mass. I dare say any crackhead would not have survived it, without so much as a twitch.

I still do that drill from time to time to this day.... ;D

DocSoos

[Stinger]

:) *That is soo .... cool! Basically that's how you learn, too.
I was trained on large 4' x 4' pieces of cardboard with small 2" circles randomly spaced across the surface. We used to pick a circle, draw quickly, and see if we could blow it out by just how the pistol felt in your hand. As you improved you kept on moving back from the target. *

At distance, say 12-15 yards, we would raise the pistol to eye level and take a two-hand hold; but, we only, 'squared the back of the slide' on the target. We did NOT use the sights. This was, still, very fast shooting: You simply, 'squared' the back of the pistol against the target and fired several times.

The conscious mind tends not to trust this kind of shooting; but, if you allow yourself to lighten up, it does work; and it works well, too! *;) *

[Pitdog]

Repeat closed eyed drill @ 7 yards one handed left. ;)
That's where I really had to start to practice, when qualifying years ago, I realized left handed both hands both eyes open I was weak in, but there is always that what if?

Right hand is disabled or full or pushing a wife or child out of the way. Could make for a bad day.

Another thing to do is train to shoot and move, and to step and drag and not cross feet. I was reading in a report in a piece of literature I receive the other day a regular joe Trooper pulled over a guy and AFTER waiting to get the low down on the perp's scumbag girlfriend, he pulled a gun after being asked to step out of the car. Four .40 caliber Gold Dot HP 's from 2 different guns and this cat is still laying on the ground and raising his gun to fire, and he was DOA. Neither officer remembers pulling and firing his gun, but the one had to move aside to avoid being shot by the scumbag. I even practice on occasion firing from the ground, (without sights) and moving with my legs. I thought it was silly but after looking @ some different real life situations and looking over scenarios, it made sense. I'm not as spry as I once was so I sure hope if it ever comes down to it I can avoid having to do that.