Female gun warfare questions

[calliel]

1. *I am taking the CCW gun class in May. *I have a Kel Tek P11. *I need a side holster for this class. *I never considered having to use a HOLSTER for a pistol. * I don't think a side holster is a good idea for me. *It would be in the way of everything I do. *I know absolutely nothing about holsters except what I have seen in western movies. *(that kind is definately out) What else is there besides a side holster that women can use comfortably? * I don't mean brands - just options. *At the gun store, they showed me something to fit inside my belt - I don't wear a belt!!!! *I didn't like their snickers and told myself I would find a better place for information. *I don't think putting a gun in my purse is a good idea - it is the great void and unknown down there. *Where is the best place for a woman to put a gun and be able to get it out quickly? *

2. *What simple techniques are there for a female greatly uneducated in gun warfare to get that gun aimed? *I get so busy lining up the dots that I forget to line the dots up on the target. *then, it takes FOREVER! *In 50 shots, I only got the target 20 times *from 25 feet! -as in that large brown cardboard; vaguely shaped like a person. *There is no rhyme or reason for the misses - high, low, wide, I have them all well covered.

3. *We *plan for me to shoot 2-300 rounds per week but we have to go to a shooting range to get that done so it all has to be done at one time rather than a bit every day. *Is shooting too much at once bad for long-term hit-what-you-shoot-at goals?

We bought the Kel Tek because it was inexpensive for a first gun - excuse me, pistol - and also because it was one of the only ones I could move the slide on - and I am not a weakling.

4. Any tips on how to loosen up the button that releases the slide. I still can't use that. *So far, I just bring the slide back and let it go forward and the button hasn't been necessary. *DH has trouble with it too. *Or is this a flaw in the gun and should we take it back?

5. *If I am this bad, should I put off the class another month? *DH wants me certified ASAP. *What good is CCW if you can't hit anything? *

HELP!

[jim]

A good shooter, someone that is NOT a boyfriend or husband needs to show you how to bed the pistol in your hand. When this is done, the firearm will be in line front to back with the bones in your forearm. It should be comfortable.

Concentrate on the front sight only at these close ranges. You WILL hit the target. I can hit to 50 yards using only the front sight. Others can hit a lot further than I using this technique. You will need to use the rear sight/front sight alignment for real precision, but that's for a little later.

Where are you? There are usually lots of shooters willing to help a beginner. LEO's if nothing else.

jim

[Rick]

Women are more curvy than men.... ;D

http://corneredcat.com/Holster/straighttalk.aspx

[calliel]

Jim and Rick - thanks, for the great information! *
I will tell DH is is out and pro is in.....

Still working on the holster thing.

I am in west Tn. I think we can find someone fairly easily. Is there a chance the gun I have won't work?

Thanks again!

[jim]

There is always the chance that even the best made firearm won't work. Do you mean failure to function, or failure to stop your assailant?
jim

[Mossback]

You might consider a SmartCarry/Thunderwear or maybe a belly band.

*****
www.girlwithagun.blogspot.com

[gordonsr]

I think the most important issue you need to address is speed. *Speed is the 1st principle of tactics. *In a real life SD situation you will very likely be within 7 yds. *Probably you will be able to smell his breath before you will want to start drawing your gun. *You need to focus on ability to get to your gun and hit him before he can disarm you.

Have you seen the purses specifically designed for gun carry? *They're made in 2 pouches, you ue both as a purse. *Between the 2 pouches is a gun compartment - it keeps itself so that the gun is covered but you just slide your hand into the end of the purse and your hand is on the gun. *If that doesn't give you a good picture, when you put the purse on your left shoulder (for a righty) the gun is in the same position as an underarm holster. *Also PM me, I'll direct you to what a forum I think is the best source anywhere for gun-oriented SD (self-defense) knowledge

Also, you might look into a pocket holster if you normally wear moderately loose pants or skirts that stay up (youmentioned not wearing a belt, perhaps you won't like carrying the weight of the gun in your pocket) and have deep enough pockets.

I 2nd what someone said about women being curvier, this is another option that can make up for generally having less options for concealed carry than us if you're sufficiently endowed/wear more modest tops. *But in your pocket or bra, a holster is still valuable for protecting the gun - there's a slight chance of something pressing against the trigger or the gun getting lint where you don't want it. *Of course I can't offer any wisdom on how well it will work for you.

Also there is a proven technique sometimes called point shooting where you don't look at the sights at all. *On the forum I mentioned they like to call it target focused aiming vs sight focused aiming, when your adrenaline is surging you will automatically tend to use it anyway at least somewhat. *But if you get a little training it can be highly effective, especially when you are within conversational distance of your bad guy. *It's not as accurate at longer range but its way faster than sight focused aiming. *Again, PM me

Also, lasers are great IF you have some training in how to use them - they will multiply your speed from draw to 1st shot, and multiply your range where you can confidently hit someone, and in a SHTF scenario where he's holding someone (like your kid) hostage as a shield a laser can enable you to take a headshot when without it he might kidnap the kid (This is just my personal nightmare scenario, the laser may be out of your training time/monetary budget)

Also you may want to consider another gun instead:
The semi-auto you have, like all semiautos, must be held firmly when fired. *Otherwise the next round will not load until you rack the slide. *This may not be an issue, but you hadn't mentioned firing the gun - it sounds as if this may be a good reason for you to get a revolver.
Revolvers are in many other ways better for beginners.
Many guns are available in perfectly effective condition for under $250, again PM me
On the other hand if you don't want to train until you can use the gun effectively from concealed carry, perhaps a long gun would be better - especially a shotun.

[calliel]

I meant failure to fit in my hand properly.

I think I can shoot good enough to stop someone if they will just stand still for a couple of minutes while I aim at them.

DH said he will get me a laser pointer thing if I continue to have trouble. Then I only have to hold it steady while it is pointing, right?

[gordonsr]

PM me
How likely is it he will hold still for you?
In my thinking, not likely at all.
Again, point shooting is way to go.

[Mac_Muz]

I wasn't going to venture into this debate, but then I saw one of the women in the 2nd link uses a S&W air weight .38 which is a very good revolver for this use. Also S&W makes a .32 mag which is perhaps slimmer and better yet due to velocity at close range.

There are 2 things I really like about either of these 2 guns... 1 they are revolvers and so don't spit empty cases all over the place..

2 they are very light weight...

These don't hold vast amounts of ammo, but it isn't likey defence involves wild gun fights. Many defence moves are made and pulled off with out a single shot being fired, just the fact you can fire one shot stops most bad guys...

The simple fact no one wants to be shot first usually ends it....

[Farmer]

1. Look seriously at the S&W Airweights.

2. Do some searching on the Web, and look at all kinds of holsters. Purses, pockets and look also at fanny (belly) packs. Look at inside-the-waistband (IWB) holsters for carrying on your hip, behind the centerline. You're going to have to try some out before you settle on one that's comfortable for you.

3. Practice shooting at 10 feet and 20 feet (3 yards and 7 yards). Most self defense situations happen close-in. 25 yards is just going to frustrate you. Get a professional trainer to show you the basics.

4. Get GOOD at shooting while using the gun's sights. Put the front sight on the target, focus on the front sight and line up with the rear sight. A professional trainer can help you immensely with this. The "point" method is not very accurate despite what you see in movie Westerns. If you're using a smaller caliber, you need accuracy to make sure your bullet does the most good.

5. As soon as possible, get a professional trainer to teach you how to stand, how to grip the gun, how to aim and so on. As soon as you're comfortable with those things, take a combat arms class to learn how to shoot while moving, shoot from cover, shoot while backing up and so on.

6. Consider carrying a backup gun in a different place on your person. One in the purse, one on the hip or in the waistband for instance.

7. Did I mention professional training?

[calliel]

Very good advice. Where do you find a professional? I have talked with several that think they are pros but I wonder if they really are. Do they have some kind of training? What do I look/ask for?

[jim]

I remember learning to shoot under 7 yards using only the front sight for a reference. Since the revolver was just under my line of sight, I held the front sight on what looked to be about 3" under where I wanted to hit, and it worked. If you concentrate on the front sight, the subconscious aligns it roughly with the rear sight, and keeps things close at close range.

Everyone thinks they're an expert with firearms. Finding someone good is difficult. Perhaps you could find a cop for the basics, or someone that can prove what he says he can do at the range.

jim

[Spikejerk]

Calliel. Here are a bunch of random answers to your questions. I'm a member of the Kel Tec Owners Group (KTOG.org). If you go there you will find dozens of posts specifically relating to your question regarding holsters and the P-11, though the information that you've got here is plenty good. I also think the smartcarry is an excellent option for a small gun like the P-11. The slide release is a bit of a bear on the P-11. Unlike most other guns, it can't easily be used with the thumb when you're holding the weapon normally. Get some gun oil and put a drop on it and just keep working it. It will get easier. The other major issue that you'll find with the P-11 is that it has a long and heavy trigger pull compared to other semi-autos. If you have'nt shot much before you might not notice but you'll hear about it from others that have. Make sure to clean and lubricate the gun before and after shooting. The Kel Tecs are not Glocks and don't like to run well when dry. For the money, the P-11 is one of the best pistols out there but you need to take care of it and understand that you might need to put a little more tlc into it than other guns.

[calliel]

Thanks for all the info. You guys are a lot of help. We went out yesterday ( cheap date). I shot 100 rounds. All but 5 hit the target. I shot from 25, 35 and 40 feet. So I am pleased that I seem to be progressing. (to say the least) I lined the pistol up with my forearm making sure all was straight - I think that was one of the best adjustments. I used the near sight and didn't worry so much about the target - just lined it up and tried to keep it steady. I am not fast yet. I do find that my trigger, though isn't a hard pull, is certainly a long pull. I have a hard time KEEPING it aimed while waiting for the trigger slack to get taken up. There doesn't seem to be a place on it where you can tell the slack is taken up either. Dh's S&W is much harder! All in all, I am happy and feel that I can do this - though I am still at the point where I need the target to stand still. We have signed up for the class to take for our CCW in a couple of Saturdays. They said the police officer that teaches the class will also help us with a lot of the basics. their interest is to see that we succeed.

DH bought me a holster today. It isn't the one I plan on using we have to have one for the class so this one doesn't matter too much - it is an inside the waistband, but can be worn outside. It is very hard to get the gun out of it right now so I will have to work it to loosen it up.

Now that I am more accurate, I will work on getting faster from alignment to shot and then from getting it out to getting the shot off.

I appreciate the confidence you helped me with! I will let youy know when I get my CCW! That is if they don't kick me out for pointing my gun at someone....I keep forgetting that little part.

[wax]

My wife carries a Browning .380 in one of two positions ( depending on what she is wearing a the time ).

Wearing a dress she prefers an upper thigh elastic band which "presents" the firearm butt down just below one handswidth from her "woman-hood". This is essentially a "belly-band" that has been shortened in length.
She likes this because there is no friction and when she sits and crosses her legs the the gun is hidden within the natural fold of her skirt.

She can also carry using a modified underwire bra but I can't help but noticing when she does (maybe I am simply looking for it so to speak).
Others claim that they can not tell at all.

BTW: She has only pointed her gun at a person once.
On her way to the restroom at a bar a man pushed her up against the wall and started moving her toward a storage room away from everyones view.
His hands were all over her so of course he didn't notice when she reached for her "privates" in order to block him.
I only looked over because I heard his begging for mercy as she pushed him away with a barrel that could have ended his life (and some would argue reasonably so) with ease.

I forced myself to stop and not run with aid that wasn't required.

[Stinger]

The answer to your first question is the one you don't want to hear: That would be on your belt! You’re not unlike my wife; she, too, is unwilling to join the, ‘gun culture’ and do things the way 100 years of carrying and using firearms have proven to be best. She finally ended up with two holsters that she’s willing to live with: (1) A Galco pocket holster, and (2) a high security shoulder purse that she got from our local AAA travel store.

The answer to your second question: Make a phone call to the NRA. Ask them for the names of instructors in your area who are certified in: pistol shooting, as well as personal protection inside AND outside the home. Call this number: 1-703-267-1500.

NRA Training For Women (http://www.nrahq.org/women/)

The answer to your third question: It can be! The moment fatigue begins to set in, your muscles start to fill with lactic acid faster than your body can flush it. Your coordination, along with your concentration, will begin to go off. 300 rounds at one time is a lot for a beginner. Whenever I train new people I limit the actual shooting part of the instruction to 100-150 rounds, tops!

Next issue: Actually, it isn’t a question of whether or not you can move a slide easily. You can! Instead it’s a matter of you not being instructed in how to do it correctly. In pistol combat this is the way master pistolero Lou Chiodo teaches CHP officers how to do it:

(i) Hold an empty pistol with the slide closed in your normal grip.

(Your trigger finger should be ARROW STRAIGHT along the top of the triggerguard; your gun hand should be jammed up tight against the bottom of the triggerguard; and, your gun hand pressure should be evenly applied – from front-to-back - against the frame’s front and rear straps with as little side pressure as possible.)

Now listen to me carefully: There is a, ‘sweet spot’ located about 1/2 way up the backstrap. The better you control this spot, the straighter you’re going to shoot.

(ii) With your support hand, insert a loaded magazine into the pistol. (Be sure to keep the muzzle pointed downrange!)

(iii) Next, place you support hand, palm down, over the top rear section of the slide. Close your grip tightly on the rear of the slide.

(iv) Now, holding the pistol firmly in your gun hand, pull forcefully all the way back on the slide. (You can, if you like, push the pistol slightly forward with your gun hand at the same time; but, this is up to you.) When the slide is at the rearmost point of its travel, immediately open your support hand and let the slide travel forward under its own power.

(When you do this: REMEMBER to keep your trigger finger arrow straight above the guard - OK!)

That’s how to charge a pistol for combat!

The answer to your fourth question: For CQB pistol combat, DON’T USE IT! The truth is that’s slide releases are devices for pistol gamesmen. A slide release has no place in the real world of street pistol combat.

(Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to do whatever he likes; I know I surely don’t care; and, there’s always the possibility that me or mine might, someday, have to go up against you; so … .)

The answer to your fifth question: From what you said, you ain’t that bad! I’ve worked with students who were a lot greener than you. All you need is more experience and a little more self-confidence.

Let me give you part of the standard beginner’s lecture: You need to read a few books. I recommend the following:

(i) The Concealed Handgun Manual, 4th Edition

(ii) NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection Inside the Home

(iii) NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection Outside the Home

These 3 books are available over the internet from the NRA Store

NRA Book Store (http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Products.aspx?cat=Videos)

The other book I usually recommend is

(iv) In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. It is available from Amazon.com.

Finally, I require ALL of my students to memorize the following four rules before they attempt to either carry or do any serious work with any firearm. (I will, also, quiz them at various times during active range training; AND, I always watch them like a proverbial hawk!)

These are known as, ‘Cooper’s Four Rules’:

1. The gun is ALWAYS loaded!

2. Never allow the muzzle to point at – or, so much as, sweep across - anything you are unwilling to see destroyed!

3. Never put your finger inside the trigger guard until AFTER you’ve made a conscious decision to fire!

4. Clearly identify your target, AND what is behind it!

The only other things I’d suggest to you are that you need to buy 2 packs of A-Zoom snap caps and use them, frequently, to practice with. You should, probably, buy your practice ammo at a place like Wal-Mart. CCI Blazer or Winchester, ‘white box’ is what you want to use.

I’m not going to get into combat ammunition for the 9, or combat shooting either. Eventually, you’ll get around to these things all by yourself. Good luck to you! :)



EDITED: I just re:read this entire thread, and picked up a few things that I didn't notice the first time around: *

FORGET SPEED! You're a long way from being, BOTH, fast and competent with a pistol. Speed comes from well conditioned reflexes and an intimate familiarity with the weapon. Forget about speed! If you don't take this advice you run the very real risk of hurting yourself or someone else close to you.

Forget about shooting from retention until you've got, at least, several months' experience under your belt AND a qualified combat pistol instructor standing just behind your strong shoulder. I know two instructors who shot themselves by pushing too hard at either speed or retention.

There's no place for this sort of poorly considered, 'gung-ho' shooting advice on an internet firearms forum. You're going to have to learn how to walk before you're able to run.

I strongly urge you NOT to practice by drawing from a holster with live ammunition in the gun. That's another recipe for disaster! Begin all of your practice shooting from the, 'low ready' position with the muzzle of the pistol held just below waist level and pointing at the ground in front of you.

I don't know what another instructor would teach a beginner about how to aim. I was taught to aim before I learned how to point shoot; and, I learned point shooting before I was taught how to fire from retention. All I can say is that it seemed like a natural progression to me; and, that's how I teach, now, too.

A training regimen that is as good as any for a beginner is to use sighted fire and start, close, at 5 yards. Fire 10 rounds. Move back to 7.5 yards; and fire 15 rounds. Then, move back to 12 yards and fire 10 rounds. Finally, move back again to 7.5 and fire another 15. You've just gone through a box of ammo.

If you teach yourself to work effectively with a handgun at AND inside 16.5 yards - and be consistent while you're at it - you will be one highly competent pistolero. As good as any I've ever know! ;)

Last comment: *You can trust me on this, too. *If you wait for the other guy to go: 3+3+3 with you, you're chances of surviving your first gunfight will be no better than your assailant's.

Learn how to read other people! *It's every bit as important as knowing how to use a gun. *OK? *

[calliel]

I forgot to check this thread! Thanks for all the advice. I don't try to draw fast at all - that is not where I am at right now. I shoot twice a month. We traded in my P-11 and I now have a PK9 - Kel Tek, something like that. I like the new one so much better. THe trigger is actually understandable. However, I am not getting that much more accurate, but DH said I was trying from too far back. So I continue to work on consistency. I do believe I can hit someone - I might not end their life, but I can hit them. I am not in this game to be the best shot out there, but I would like to be more dependably accurate - to the inch!

Many thanks!

[jim]

One thing an old-timer taught me was to start my drawing practice with an empty gun and go slow. Work for smoothness and build those muscle-memory paterns right the first time. Speed will come with practice. Work for safety, smoothness and accuracy first. Speed comes dead last. I think Cooper said: Accuracy, power, then speed.

jim

[panzer426]

1. I am taking the CCW gun class in May. I have a Kel Tek P11. I need a side holster for this class. I never considered having to use a HOLSTER for a pistol. I don't think a side holster is a good idea for me. It would be in the way of everything I do. I know absolutely nothing about holsters except what I have seen in western movies. (that kind is definately out) What else is there besides a side holster that women can use comfortably? I don't mean brands - just options. At the gun store, they showed me something to fit inside my belt - I don't wear a belt!!!! I didn't like their snickers and told myself I would find a better place for information. I don't think putting a gun in my purse is a good idea - it is the great void and unknown down there. Where is the best place for a woman to put a gun and be able to get it out quickly?

Check out this website, written by a woman, for women and shares ideas of other women on carrying concealed weapons. As my wife can tell you, most holsters are designed for men and will not work remotely comfortably (many wont even come close to concealing) on women. http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx

The best my wife has found for herself is the Galco handbags designed with a holster in a special pocket...the purse is designed to be a holster and a purse, not a purse that has a holster as an after thought.

2. What simple techniques are there for a female greatly uneducated in gun warfare to get that gun aimed? I get so busy lining up the dots that I forget to line the dots up on the target. then, it takes FOREVER! In 50 shots, I only got the target 20 times from 25 feet! -as in that large brown cardboard; vaguely shaped like a person. There is no rhyme or reason for the misses - high, low, wide, I have them all well covered.

Practice point shooting. Also, not sure about your states CCW test but most states have 3 distances they test you at. Most I know of, you can pass the test from the first two closest distances and not even hit from the last one.

3. We plan for me to shoot 2-300 rounds per week but we have to go to a shooting range to get that done so it all has to be done at one time rather than a bit every day. Is shooting too much at once bad for long-term hit-what-you-shoot-at goals?

We bought the Kel Tek because it was inexpensive for a first gun - excuse me, pistol - and also because it was one of the only ones I could move the slide on - and I am not a weakling.

Kel Tecs are good, and accurate for what they are. With practice they are decent guns. They were, however, designed to serve the same purpose as any snub gun...belly guns. IE, close range. Also, slides loosen up a bit over time, best way to break them in is to fire a few hundred rounds.

4. Any tips on how to loosen up the button that releases the slide. I still can't use that. So far, I just bring the slide back and let it go forward and the button hasn't been necessary. DH has trouble with it too. Or is this a flaw in the gun and should we take it back?

Same as the slide, it will loosen up after you break it in. Few hundred rounds.

5. If I am this bad, should I put off the class another month? DH wants me certified ASAP. What good is CCW if you can't hit anything?

Most self defense (justified) shootings happen at close range...not 25 yards but more like 3 yards or less. Practice a lot before you take the test.

HELP!

[lostone1413]

Good to see women into shooting. Here in Arizona I see allot of woman shooting. As far as carry I know some women carry like I do. appendix carry. If your serious about self defense shooting one of the best trainers has a site its www.warriortalk.com The difference between training for self defense and shooting a target is like night and day. As far as a good sight here is what I have on all my carry guns
http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/ If your real serious about self defense and you have some people to shoot with get yourself an airsoft pistol. Do some force on force training. Shooting at a range will teach you how to handle a gun. Force on force will teach you what it takes to survive a gunfight

[calliel]

Time to update those of you who have been so helpful.

We traded in the KT P-11 for a PF-9. I like the trigger much better but hate the magazine only holding 7 rounds.

I have found a great place to carry it comfortably. It is a non-issue. Though I do need practice getting out quicker. Thankfully, it doesn't weigh me down at all - in fact, I think the Cell phone and Pocket PC weigh more than the pistol.

We are still going out and practicing monthly. Dh is doing the IDPA shooting, but it isn't my "thing". An amazing item has come to my attention - I do much better when I am closer to the target.....Much better. so I concentrate on that for now.

I still think being left-eye dominant and right handed causes me trouble in sighting. No professional help yet, but we will go for that in the spring. The ones I was able to contact here are too busy until then. Now to learn to reload....

[Mac_Muz]

Try keeping both eyes open, with any gun...

I am left mastered ey and was all lefty till age 5 when I was punished for being so.

Today I shoot long guns lefty, but switching to righty isn't that much of a problem.

I throw only righty, so can toss a clay and blow it to bits with a lefty hold on a shot gun..

I shoot hand guns righty with both eyes... it seems I can't switch to shooting hand guns as lefty unless I use to similar guns at the same time... odd huh?

[FireMaker]

With the KelTec, an inside the pants holster is a good option. You DO NOT nead a belt for one. Take a look at web site for "uncle mikes". They make a variety of inexpensive nylon holsters that are a good place to start.

The purpose of the holster is to provide security when not in use. If you are going to do the CCW thing, how will you keep the weapon available for when needed. Have carried 7 days a week for just short of 20 yrs. I have a variety of holsters that I use for different clothing combos.

Galco also makes some very good leather holsters. They have some that cater to women that better fit the hips.

When I have an open range day, I require holsters. Dont want any guns falling out of pants of having a negligent discharge. They are no accident.