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offtheradar
10-07-2012, 05:48 PM
How many here know of someone that has a small business and does cash only. I know of some that have a stall in a farmers market and do only cash sales (no checks, credit cards or EBT). Also some that do small home repairs for cash. This is not their principle income,some are retired and supplement their income. I guess you could call this off the grid income. It seems to work as long as you do not get too big with the business. I see more and more people trying this and with the SHTF slowly for many it seems appealing to them.

brushhippie
10-07-2012, 06:14 PM
I ran out of patience with the banks crap years ago, when they started charging you to cash a check on their bank... yep, nope cash only! Had more than one check that was an out and out lie.

whitehairedidiot
10-07-2012, 07:35 PM
When we were scouting information about living here full-time, a local said many of the service people would work cheaper, as long one paid cash-- I believe the amount had to be around $1900 or less, as the IRS didn't track amounts below this.

I don't know how true this is, just what I heard.

But, I do know there's been an underground economy for some time.

grumble
10-07-2012, 07:59 PM
If you really want to get on a radar screen, try paying large bills in cash. Unless you got your cash from robbing a bank or something, so you have a lot of it under your mattress, withdrawing cash from a "legitimate" financial institution will really attract attention.

TSJ
10-07-2012, 08:58 PM
If you really want to get on a radar screen, try paying large bills in cash. Unless you got your cash from robbing a bank or something, so you have a lot of it under your mattress, withdrawing cash from a "legitimate" financial institution will really attract attention.

Being a former bank auditor I can say that it would take a large cash transaction to attract official attention. Specifically $10,000 or larger.

As a customer of a bank you can also be placed on a monthly suspicious activity report that is sent to the feds. For instance I once had to track all the checking acct transactions of an idiot who told a dumb drug joke to a teller when he was making a cash deposit. Everyone month I sent a report to the feds. Thanks a lot dude, like I really needed the extra work, you know? So don't tell dumb jokes to tellers.

grumble
10-07-2012, 09:09 PM
I realize the $10k number is the trigger, but any frequent activity can also garner attention. How much results from the suspicions of a bank employee and how much from automated monitoring programs, I have no idea. What I am pretty sure of is that moving money around is nowhere near as private as it once was.

TSJ
10-08-2012, 01:32 AM
I realize the $10k number is the trigger, but any frequent activity can also garner attention. How much results from the suspicions of a bank employee and how much from automated monitoring programs, I have no idea. What I am pretty sure of is that moving money around is nowhere near as private as it once was.

I won't go into all the details but certain businesses in certain locations are monitored for suspicious activities(money laundring). However some businesses are exempt such as hamburger franchises, grocery stores, etc., because they make huge cash deposits. The bank I worked had a number of branch banks in the Rio Grand Valley of Texas, obviously an area of intense interest by the Feds, ok? So every month I would get gigantic reports from the branch banks of all businesses. I told them to PLEASE not include hamburger franchises, chain grocery stores, WalMart, etc. but STILL they sent them. To this day I don't know if the branch banks were deliberately trying to swamp me, and ultimately the feds. Probably I should had the presidents of the local branch banks investigated but I moved on to greener pastures. Regulating insurance companies. At least I don't have to keep dossiers on insurance customers and send them to the feds.

offtheradar
10-08-2012, 09:51 AM
I think that the people who work for cash only (part time) never deposit it in the bank. Their retirement/part time jobs checks goes into the bank. This pays for their electric/utility bill. Gas, food, etc. is paid for in cash. Some will use money orders if paying by mail. I think you will see this type of economy expand exponentially as the taxes increase next year. I understand the government would love to eliminate cash and go to a credit card type of transaction only.

whitehairedidiot
10-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Radar:

Looks like we're damned if we do; damned if we don't, huh?

If we use cash only -- we're suspected of being criminals.

If we rely totally on digital banking -- we are vulnerable to the latest Denial of Service attack (very common attack on networks), viruses, grid-down, or simply internet-down situations that are bound to come along, from time to time. Not to mention the human-error "oops" that happen more often -- and can be harder to prove with the bank (which assumes it's NOT their error) -- than anyone knows.

The only advice I can give to those wondering what to do, is what I heard a 90 yr old victim of the Bernie Madoff rip-off say on tv: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It's a PITA to have to keep tabs on more than one account at more than one institution - but this is the only way I can see, to protect myself from "digital" hiccups targeting a specific institution. That and a lot of cash on hand protected a different way.

TSJ
10-08-2012, 01:35 PM
I am a customer of one of the largest banks in the nations and I use my check card(ATM) for practically everthing but on line internet purchases (ebay, etc., ALWAYS use a credit card or Pay Pal instead of a bank check/ATM card, OK?). I have yet to have any problems. I use the bank's on line Bill Pay system to pay my bills and never have to buy stamps or use the post office anymore. It's a god send. While my bank does have denial of service attacks it never affects my check/ATM card or my credit card. What the denial of service does is to stop me from checking my balances and using Bill Pay on line. But that has never lasted more than 10-12 hours.

I agree that everyone should have some cash. But really, keeping a large sum of cash is crazy when it could be invested and working for you. Heck, if nothing else keep it in silver coins. Just my thoughts.

ScrubbieLady
10-08-2012, 01:47 PM
I won't go into all the details but certain businesses in certain locations are monitored for suspicious activities(money laundring). However some businesses are exempt such as hamburger franchises, grocery stores, etc., because they make huge cash deposits. The bank I worked had a number of branch banks in the Rio Grand Valley of Texas, obviously an area of intense interest by the Feds, ok? So every month I would get gigantic reports from the branch banks of all businesses. I told them to PLEASE not include hamburger franchises, chain grocery stores, WalMart, etc. but STILL they sent them. To this day I don't know if the branch banks were deliberately trying to swamp me, and ultimately the feds. Probably I should had the presidents of the local branch banks investigated but I moved on to greener pastures. Regulating insurance companies. At least I don't have to keep dossiers on insurance customers and send them to the feds.

I was raised in the Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas. That is just how they do things. There are a LOT of immigrants down there that work on cash only. Also a lot of farm workers that get paid in cash. Even if they get paychecks, some people will just pay the $3 or whatever at Wal-Mart to cash their check(since banks don't want to cash their customers' checks without a fee and thumbprint) and then pay everything in cash.

I prefer cash for purchases (pay the mortgage and those type bills with checks). It keeps a person from overspending and we don't do plastic.

backlash
10-08-2012, 02:01 PM
I knew a Radiologist that would not take a check from the hospital he worked for.
The hospital was in desperate need of his services so they agreed to his terms for employment.
Every 2 weeks he received a large envelope full of $100 bills.
He was a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy case.
He bought $20,000 in gold and paid cash.
The seller deposited the cash and as you can imagine the bank reported it.
He had to get lawyers involved to get them off his back.
I would bet he is still being monitored.

momma_to_seven_chi
10-08-2012, 04:28 PM
Being a former bank auditor I can say that it would take a large cash transaction to attract official attention. Specifically $10,000 or larger.


I thought the patriot act brought it down to $5000? I don't know for sure, but I read that on a board somewhere.

Txanne
10-08-2012, 04:50 PM
I am a customer of one of the largest banks in the nations and I use my check card(ATM) for practically everthing but on line internet purchases (ebay, etc., ALWAYS use a credit card or Pay Pal instead of a bank check/ATM card, OK?). I have yet to have any problems. I use the bank's on line Bill Pay system to pay my bills and never have to buy stamps or use the post office anymore. It's a god send. While my bank does have denial of service attacks it never affects my check/ATM card or my credit card. What the denial of service does is to stop me from checking my balances and using Bill Pay on line. But that has never lasted more than 10-12 hours.

I agree that everyone should have some cash. But really, keeping a large sum of cash is crazy when it could be invested and working for you. Heck, if nothing else keep it in silver coins. Just my thoughts.

I dont ever never use credit cards.

But I am puzzled as to not paying with a debit/bank card?
'Plain for me---SS is direct deposited---soon the only way too get SS ck. is direct dep or debit card. Just read/heard that in one of those late nite spots.

I have a ck book----rarely use it----
I have been watching the ((under-ground economy since the early days of Mother Earth News.
Cash---be careful what you declare out-loud as far as cash--for--work goes.
Very careful.

Interesting
Txanne

offtheradar
10-08-2012, 05:17 PM
I understand the IRS is to hire more agents (thousands) under the guise of auditing for health insurance per Obama care. So be careful and don't do anything stupid to stand out.

TSJ
10-08-2012, 06:05 PM
I thought the patriot act brought it down to $5000? I don't know for sure, but I read that on a board somewhere.

Could be. It's been 12 years since I worked at a bank. Thank Gawd.

TSJ
10-08-2012, 06:21 PM
I dont ever never use credit cards.

But I am puzzled as to not paying with a debit/bank card?
'Plain for me---SS is direct deposited---soon the only way too get SS ck. is direct dep or debit card. Just read/heard that in one of those late nite spots.

I have a ck book----rarely use it----
I have been watching the ((under-ground economy since the early days of Mother Earth News.
Cash---be careful what you declare out-loud as far as cash--for--work goes.
Very careful.

Interesting
Txanne

You don't want to use your debit card to make on line internet pruchases (I don't give it out over the telephone either) because if the wrong person gets hold of your debit card number and they wipe out your balance and it could take a long while for the bank to restore it after you find out about it and complain. This could possibly leave you with access to zero cash for a number of weeks. That's not something I would relish.

But because we are good and knowledgble consumers we use our credit card to make on line or over the telephone purchases and if hackers or criminals get our credit card number and we find out about it after checking our balance every week on line using our computer, we see thousands of dollars of purchases that we didn't make, THEN we notify the bank and the bank will kill our credit card and issue us a new credit card. Then the bank will reverse the charges to stores the criminals made charges to because the stores did not check their ID's or ask for their addresses and other information if the criminals made on line purchases. But NEVER use your debit card to make online or over the telephone purchases because it can take a while. I also get paranoid when I give my debit card to the waiter or bar tender to pay for my bill and they walk out of my line of sight. But that is just me.

backlash
10-08-2012, 06:29 PM
But I am puzzled as to not paying with a debit/bank card?
If you use a debit card and it is compromised the bad guys will have access to all your money.
Your account can be wiped out fast.
If there is a billing dispute your money will be unavailable until the bank gets it straightened out.
Maybe weeks, or months, or never.
I inadvertently used my debit card instead of my CC when I checked into a hotel in Hawaii.
They put a hold on my account for 2 weeks and it caused my wife some serious shopping problems.
Saved me some money however. :D
My debit card was compromised by hackers in a restaurant in Seattle.
Apparently they intercept the wireless transaction the restaurant used to process my card.
The banks system detected unusual activity on my card and canceled the card after 3 transactions.
The card was used at McDonald's and twice at Target in New York. Long way from Seattle.
I got my money back but it took awhile.

J R Adams
10-08-2012, 07:27 PM
I thought the patriot act brought it down to $5000? I don't know for sure, but I read that on a board somewhere.


Just checked with my bank last week. $10,000.01 must be reported.

ScrubbieLady
10-09-2012, 08:08 AM
I dont ever never use credit cards.

But I am puzzled as to not paying with a debit/bank card?
'Plain for me---SS is direct deposited---soon the only way too get SS ck. is direct dep or debit card. Just read/heard that in one of those late nite spots.

I have a ck book----rarely use it----
I have been watching the ((under-ground economy since the early days of Mother Earth News.
Cash---be careful what you declare out-loud as far as cash--for--work goes.
Very careful.

Interesting
Txanne

IF SS is direct deposited, just get it out in total through the ATM.

whitehairedidiot
10-09-2012, 10:24 AM
IIRC, isn't there an option out there, for folks who don't have a bank account? Just like landline phones, a lot of people have decided to not have checking accounts, either. (Probably another SHTF canary...)

I thought there was an option to have a debit card - pre-filled with the amount of the ss check. Maybe I'm mixing that up with something else...

Txanne
10-09-2012, 11:08 AM
IIRC, isn't there an option out there, for folks who don't have a bank account? Just like landline phones, a lot of people have decided to not have checking accounts, either. (Probably another SHTF canary...)

I thought there was an option to have a debit card - pre-filled with the amount of the ss check. Maybe I'm mixing that up with something else...

WHI

There is that option---and i have been behind people in ck.out-line that the cards didnt work.
Now thats scary.
I have been with the same bank for years and I am going to talk to them.
They now have an automated system with my critia---if anything looks out of the norm--they shut my account down.
Say:: At my age showing up at bridal shop trying to spend money.

Its a sad day---indeed.

Txanne

I am such a creature of habit---going /doing the same things every month.

whitehairedidiot
10-09-2012, 11:57 AM
(oooooooo - don't get me started on bridal stuff! my fingers itch to play with silk, satin, lace, pearls, netting.... I'm jealous, Annie!! But I've got girl-baby stuff to work on... LOL)

The problem with the cards - I guess the magnetic strips on some of them can have issues. I've had one or two cc's, that had to be keyed in every single time.

But that's just my issue with "digital money systems". Too many things can go wrong. I've been in Walmart or the grocery store when the power goes out. Even with cash, it's NOT POSSIBLE to check out and go on one's merry way -- because of the barcode inventory system... that's tied in with the money transfer.

I asked one of the cashier's at Walmart the other day: do you all have a plan for being able to check out people, if the power's out for a long time? The answer is NO; they don't. But I made her think, ha!

As a business person, with some now-ancient small retail shop experience... I can't wrap my head around not having a scratch pad, to add up the prices - (use a calculator people!)... figure the tax... give the total and then make change from cash, accept a check or run a credit/debit card on those old handheld slider machines. Yes, that would make it appear there was a loss in the digital inventory system later on... but you'd still be selling merchandise, right? Compare the two, later, dollarwise... and they should be pretty close unless in the confusion there's a lot of shoplifting.

TSJ
10-09-2012, 01:28 PM
WHI

There is that option---and i have been behind people in ck.out-line that the cards didnt work.
Now thats scary.
I have been with the same bank for years and I am going to talk to them.
They now have an automated system with my critia---if anything looks out of the norm--they shut my account down.
Say:: At my age showing up at bridal shop trying to spend money.

Its a sad day---indeed.

Txanne

I am such a creature of habit---going /doing the same things every month.

Why not just go on line and check account balances yourself and look at the items that debit your checking account? It only takes a miute or two every day.

kfander
10-09-2012, 01:32 PM
We frequently pay cash for services such as electrical work, plumbing and heater repairs. When we moved into our circa 1910 house, it had only two-prong power outlets, and no more than two per room. The retired electrician who rewired the house for us charged $150 plus the cost of materials, which wasn't a whole lot, and he supplied the receipts for it. Our plumber doesn't work quite that cheap, but he's more than reasonable, and the technician from the oil company services our heater after he gets off of work. Are they reporting this as income? Probably not, but I couldn't care less. Actually, I suppose I could; I hope they're not. We also barter a lot of our services, maintaining web sites for businesses who then do not charge us for their services, with no money changing hands at all.

Otherwise, we don't use a lot of cash. We use Paypal as our primary bank, and use our Paypal debit cards for most purchases. Most of our income goes directly into our Paypal accounts. We have a few other bank accounts for specific purposes: putting money into one account for expenses on our land and camp up north, and our Amazon.com money goes directly into another account which generally earns enough to pay our insurance and mortgages, although once in awhile we may have to add money to that account.

whitehairedidiot
10-09-2012, 02:51 PM
OK, then what happens in an internet blackout?
Or a grid-down situation?

I see how barter makes sense - even in those situations. Been engaged in it myself at one time or another.

But for those two situations above - those are real vulnerabilities to the digital money and banking system. I'm sensitive to it - because of my exposure. We don't pay bills online for a number of reasons, tho' there have been isolated situations where it came in real handy to be able to.

Because of our location, we always keep a certain amount of cash in case we have to "run". We are and have to be - 365/24/7 - prepared to bug out ahead of storms. The amount of that cash has been increasing - hubs' doing, really - because again, in our location a longer-term grid down situation isn't really that far-fetched.

I'm re-thinking a lot of the financial stuff, these days. Things like today's headline in the WSJ are making me concerned: Chances of Global Recession greater... and behind the paper? News reports of protests/riots in several European countries.

kfander
10-09-2012, 05:11 PM
OK, then what happens in an internet blackout?
Or a grid-down situation?

In such a situation, certainly our life won't continue on as usual because we earn our living through the Internet, in one way or another. My prayer is that this situation will not occur until after we have gathered offline resources to be able to have a chance at life offgrid.

Txanne
10-09-2012, 06:12 PM
(oooooooo - don't get me started on bridal stuff! my fingers itch to play with silk, satin, lace, pearls, netting.... I'm jealous, Annie!! But I've got girl-baby stuff to work on... LOL)

The problem with the cards - I guess the magnetic strips on some of them can have issues. I've had one or two cc's, that had to be keyed in every single time.

But that's just my issue with "digital money systems". Too many things can go wrong. I've been in Walmart or the grocery store when the power goes out. Even with cash, it's NOT POSSIBLE to check out and go on one's merry way -- because of the barcode inventory system... that's tied in with the money transfer.

I asked one of the cashier's at Walmart the other day: do you all have a plan for being able to check out people, if the power's out for a long time? The answer is NO; they don't. But I made her think, ha!

As a business person, with some now-ancient small retail shop experience... I can't wrap my head around not having a scratch pad, to add up the prices - (use a calculator people!)... figure the tax... give the total and then make change from cash, accept a check or run a credit/debit card on those old handheld slider machines. Yes, that would make it appear there was a loss in the digital inventory system later on... but you'd still be selling merchandise, right? Compare the two, later, dollarwise... and they should be pretty close unless in the confusion there's a lot of shoplifting.

The beauty of hurricane alley(if thats good lol) is we have genies(monsters) that kick on in extended power-outages.
Short-tern(2 hrs) registers operate on battery power-----
WHI
Bridal stuff has dominated the females of my family here lately---so we're chilin right now---overload.LOL


I really want my SS ck. in my hand---$3.00 ck cashing fee and I am done--But NO--the gooberment even tells us what we can do with our checks---stupid stupid.

txanne

Txanne
10-09-2012, 06:15 PM
Why not just go on line and check account balances yourself and look at the items that debit your checking account? It only takes a miute or two every day.

I have never set up a pass word.
When the hackers set in---was warned they could cross hack and get inot my acct.

I just dont know.
The more convient things are----the greater the risk.

txanne

backlash
10-09-2012, 06:31 PM
Why not just go on line and check account balances yourself and look at the items that debit your checking account? It only takes a miute or two every day.

My wife does that several times every day.
That's how she discovered charges on my debit card that were fraudulent.
Fortunate the bank was on top of the situation and had canceled my card.
There were 3 charges made before it was cancelled and 3 tries after.

Plowpoint
10-09-2012, 08:34 PM
It is getting harder and harder to pay with cash, but I still do!

For instance, any and all government checks get direct deposited now, such as the FSA or the NRCS, and that is fine, but just as soon as the money hits my account, I convert it to cash and my bank knows that and anticipates it.

I used to do the electronic thing, but then what it said online was not always what I had spent, especially if there was paper checks floating out there and every time my account went into "overdraft", even if it was a $3 dollar purchase like coffee or something, my bank charged $32 dollars. That is an expensive coffee, and if your didn't know and bought two more items, well you were out almost $100.

I got tired of it, and now I just pay cash. People know it too, and expect it which I think leads to better, faster service. I do a lot of logging and the guy that trucks my wood has a good thing going. he picks up my wood, he pays me cash on the spot. A days pay for a days work...all on the same day...I like that.

BTW: It is NOT what you think. I am a farmer and so logging and farming are considered a farm enterprise so every dollar I make logging...even though it is in cash...is reported on my Schedule F. I said when I took over this farm from my father that I was going to farm right and I have, including tax stuff.

whitehairedidiot
10-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Annie, that's why I've started to talking to the folks at the businesses we frequent... and I'm shocked at how un-prepared a lot of them are, given that we KNOW there's going to be another storm in the future... and that's before we get to SHTF scenarios. Maybe I'll shift my conversations to the small business owners... they'll surely have a more open ear and more sense about 'em.

The hospital and gov't offices all have generator power; Hatteras Island actually has some huge generators on the island -- to provide at least limited power while the electric is repaired after a storm; we also have started to see (limited) wind turbine installations, too. Our HOA, in the neighborhood, has been discussing permitting these - and what kinds of restrictions - for a couple of years now. Our emergency services folks have soooo much experience with storms (not necessarily crime, which is getting to be a problem) that I consider them "world-class" prepared... despite the critics who always second guess every decision that's made.

There are pros & cons to cash, versus cards, versus online... digital money... no matter which one feels the most comfortable to you, personally. I guess I'm trying to cover all my bases for us -- and I'm going to have to accept that level of risk -- in whatever I decide. And also accept that I'm going to make some mistakes, hopefully not big ones!!

Selena
10-12-2012, 01:24 AM
Just checked with my bank last week. $10,000.01 must be reported.

But not a single transaction - the banks accumulate over X number of days.
Ironically some businesses won't take cash these days. I think twice as to where I use a credit/debit card due to fees to the business. Rarely do I use a debit/credit card at a small business.

Txanne
10-12-2012, 01:31 AM
It is getting harder and harder to pay with cash, but I still do!

For instance, any and all government checks get direct deposited now, such as the FSA or the NRCS, and that is fine, but just as soon as the money hits my account, I convert it to cash and my bank knows that and anticipates it.

I used to do the electronic thing, but then what it said online was not always what I had spent, especially if there was paper checks floating out there and every time my account went into "overdraft", even if it was a $3 dollar purchase like coffee or something, my bank charged $32 dollars. That is an expensive coffee, and if your didn't know and bought two more items, well you were out almost $100.

I got tired of it, and now I just pay cash. People know it too, and expect it which I think leads to better, faster service. I do a lot of logging and the guy that trucks my wood has a good thing going. he picks up my wood, he pays me cash on the spot. A days pay for a days work...all on the same day...I like that.

BTW: It is NOT what you think. I am a farmer and so logging and farming are considered a farm enterprise so every dollar I make logging...even though it is in cash...is reported on my Schedule F. I said when I took over this farm from my father that I was going to farm right and I have, including tax stuff.

I would consider that No Ones elses Dam business----
If you have a few cows--you get farm tax breaks and many have other businesses.
One is hay----just got through hay season here----nice little side business.

Some raise dogs--one neighbor raises birds including quail---and the rice farmers allow duck hunting on the fields after harvest.

Just gotta do what you gotta do--
Txanne

Plowpoint
10-12-2012, 06:59 AM
It depends completely on the bank.

For instance, on some transactions like buying fuel here, the gas station takes out a minimum of $100 from your account. So lets say I buy $20 in fuel, the gas station takes a minimum of $100 out of my account and holds it until the next business day when the bank updates its computers. When it sees that the purchase was for only $20 dollars, it credits my account with $80 dollars. Since my bank knows this, they do not bother to show any transaction until it actually goes through. If I check my account online on Sunday morning, it won't show that I made a $20 fuel purchase so I will think I have more money then I have, and can easily over-spend...to which the bank gets $34 per overdrawn transaction.

Now that is my bank. My wife's out-of-state bank does not do this. On their accounts they "predict" what the real purchase was and when, and so she gets a very accurate number on what she has for available money every time she checks it.

Another thing my bank does that is silly is, they always deduct the withdrawals before calculating the deposits. This makes a huge difference. If I go right down to the penny paying bills on a business day that I get paid and have a direct deposit, I might go over by a few bucks thinking I just got paid and have plenty of money in my account, at which my bank will assign me a $34 dollar fee, then a split second later figure in my direct deposit. If they would simply calculate the deposits first, then calculate the expenses, it would save bank patrons the overdraft charge. Unbelievable huh?

So it really depends on what bank you have and what the regulations are in your state.

For these reasons and more, I am going back to cash.

Why not just go on line and check account balances yourself and look at the items that debit your checking account? It only takes a miute or two every day.

Plowpoint
10-12-2012, 07:04 AM
Ironically some businesses won't take cash these days.

Call the Treasury Department and report them. This is against federal law as all bills state..."This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private".

brushhippie
10-12-2012, 10:40 AM
My last encounter with a bank, I opened an account so I could get a debit card for ordering parts from my wholesaler which was the only thing I would use it for when I ordered something Id go put money in my account...well my wife decided to try net flicks so she gave them the card number and after the first month when it came due I got an e mail from NF saying my card was declined since there wasnt over a buck or two in it....unless I needed to order something. OK fast forward three or four months I go into my bank acct and see that my acct is thirty some odd dollars over drawn, so I call the bank they tell me they paid NF and over drew my acct.....WHAT? I dont have overdraft protection (for a reason) whats up with that? well you didnt have it and now you do. Last I looked my acct was over 700 bucks in OD.

ScrubbieLady
10-12-2012, 09:23 PM
It depends completely on the bank.

For instance, on some transactions like buying fuel here, the gas station takes out a minimum of $100 from your account. So lets say I buy $20 in fuel, the gas station takes a minimum of $100 out of my account and holds it until the next business day when the bank updates its computers. When it sees that the purchase was for only $20 dollars, it credits my account with $80 dollars. Since my bank knows this, they do not bother to show any transaction until it actually goes through. If I check my account online on Sunday morning, it won't show that I made a $20 fuel purchase so I will think I have more money then I have, and can easily over-spend...to which the bank gets $34 per overdrawn transaction.

Now that is my bank. My wife's out-of-state bank does not do this. On their accounts they "predict" what the real purchase was and when, and so she gets a very accurate number on what she has for available money every time she checks it.

Another thing my bank does that is silly is, they always deduct the withdrawals before calculating the deposits. This makes a huge difference. If I go right down to the penny paying bills on a business day that I get paid and have a direct deposit, I might go over by a few bucks thinking I just got paid and have plenty of money in my account, at which my bank will assign me a $34 dollar fee, then a split second later figure in my direct deposit. If they would simply calculate the deposits first, then calculate the expenses, it would save bank patrons the overdraft charge. Unbelievable huh?

So it really depends on what bank you have and what the regulations are in your state.

For these reasons and more, I am going back to cash.

When I use my debit card to buy gas, I go into the cashier and pay the $20 with my debit card. No hold on the account.

A lot of banks take out withdrawals first and then put in deposits. All who think they don't do this to make more money, I have some ocean front property outside of Phoenix for sale.

Txanne
10-12-2012, 09:34 PM
You know I made a discovery---most banks charge for debit card withdrawals if your not a customer.

I kinda of (shopped) found one that only chg'd $1.50 for a withdrawal--(Dupont Credit Union)the rest ranged from 3.50 to 4.50.

My grocery store doesnt chg--if your buying groceries--limit of 100.00 and WM I think at some its a 200.00 limit.

Of course my bank doesnt chg anything.

Txanne

TSJ
10-13-2012, 01:35 AM
It depends completely on the bank.

For instance, on some transactions like buying fuel here, the gas station takes out a minimum of $100 from your account. So lets say I buy $20 in fuel, the gas station takes a minimum of $100 out of my account and holds it until the next business day when the bank updates its computers. When it sees that the purchase was for only $20 dollars, it credits my account with $80 dollars. Since my bank knows this, they do not bother to show any transaction until it actually goes through. If I check my account online on Sunday morning, it won't show that I made a $20 fuel purchase so I will think I have more money then I have, and can easily over-spend...to which the bank gets $34 per overdrawn transaction.

Now that is my bank. My wife's out-of-state bank does not do this. On their accounts they "predict" what the real purchase was and when, and so she gets a very accurate number on what she has for available money every time she checks it.

Another thing my bank does that is silly is, they always deduct the withdrawals before calculating the deposits. This makes a huge difference. If I go right down to the penny paying bills on a business day that I get paid and have a direct deposit, I might go over by a few bucks thinking I just got paid and have plenty of money in my account, at which my bank will assign me a $34 dollar fee, then a split second later figure in my direct deposit. If they would simply calculate the deposits first, then calculate the expenses, it would save bank patrons the overdraft charge. Unbelievable huh?

So it really depends on what bank you have and what the regulations are in your state.

For these reasons and more, I am going back to cash.

If you make a cash deposit your checking account should credited right then and there. cha ching! No adding up withdrawls then deposits. They've got your cash. That means any debts must be settled IMMEDIATELY by the bank. No waiting until the end of the day for withdrawals. I also keep a savings account for such emergencies. When I transfer cash from the savings account to checking either atm or online, it's right now, immediately. I've *never* had a overdrawn account doing this. Cash is KING even for a bank.

brushhippie
10-13-2012, 09:48 AM
Banks are just like everybody else in big business (and government office) looking to squeeze every cent out of you ...period. A perfect example of thats the way we do it and theres not a thing you can do about it....except dont give them your money.

whitehairedidiot
10-13-2012, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I think I'd change banks Plowpoint.

In one way - I understand the logic behind things like this. All kinds of bank fees - never before in existence are coming into being, and tricks like the withdrawal before crediting a deposit, too - as a result of the gov't looking over the bank's shoulder and telling them what they can/can't do... where and how much they can charge for services, even. Hubs had to travel out of state this weekend to deal with a bank - their procedures were preventing his sister from making a deposit. Yep, you heard that right - a deposit. It's the smaller banks that are being squeezed into doing things strangely. I have an issue like that, that I'm going to deal with in the next couple of months too.

On the other hand - if my bank did what yours is doing - my money would definitely go walking somewhere else. I'm pretty confident, where I'm at now... but I still keep a close eye on things for a lot of reasons. For one thing, customers are being notified of changes - after the fact and not before. I make a point to know the people - not just tellers - at my bank branch, personally. They don't always see eye to eye with corporate decisions... and sometimes can provide advice, hints/clues that are useful.

Selena
10-15-2012, 01:53 AM
WHI

There is that option---and i have been behind people in ck.out-line that the cards didnt work.
Now thats scary.
I have been with the same bank for years and I am going to talk to them.
They now have an automated system with my critia---if anything looks out of the norm--they shut my account down.
Say:: At my age showing up at bridal shop trying to spend money.

Its a sad day---indeed.

Txanne

I am such a creature of habit---going /doing the same things every month.

That is fraud software - a big, lucrative business. Going to Victoria's Secret would do it too. They should not shut down your account - they should at the worst deny the transaction or at best, require the merchant to call the bank. The merchant would be asked to verify your id. Time to find a new bank if that is going to be their reaction. Trust me, they don't care one whit about you, it is all about minimizing their risk and possible "loss".

Selena
10-15-2012, 01:57 AM
It depends completely on the bank.

For instance, on some transactions like buying fuel here, the gas station takes out a minimum of $100 from your account. So lets say I buy $20 in fuel, the gas station takes a minimum of $100 out of my account and holds it until the next business day when the bank updates its computers. When it sees that the purchase was for only $20 dollars, it credits my account with $80 dollars. Since my bank knows this, they do not bother to show any transaction until it actually goes through. If I check my account online on Sunday morning, it won't show that I made a $20 fuel purchase so I will think I have more money then I have, and can easily over-spend...to which the bank gets $34 per overdrawn transaction.

Now that is my bank. My wife's out-of-state bank does not do this. On their accounts they "predict" what the real purchase was and when, and so she gets a very accurate number on what she has for available money every time she checks it.

Another thing my bank does that is silly is, they always deduct the withdrawals before calculating the deposits. This makes a huge difference. If I go right down to the penny paying bills on a business day that I get paid and have a direct deposit, I might go over by a few bucks thinking I just got paid and have plenty of money in my account, at which my bank will assign me a $34 dollar fee, then a split second later figure in my direct deposit. If they would simply calculate the deposits first, then calculate the expenses, it would save bank patrons the overdraft charge. Unbelievable huh?

So it really depends on what bank you have and what the regulations are in your state.

For these reasons and more, I am going back to cash.

Float - big bucks for the bank. In theory, you swipe your debit card at the gas pump and it will put a hold on X dollars (now a lot give the price of gas). IF your bank does real time processing, they will net when the transaction is completed - hold - actual = post actual, release hold. But a lot of banks are "off-line", aka do not do real time.

Txanne
10-15-2012, 03:16 AM
That is fraud software - a big, lucrative business. Going to Victoria's Secret would do it too. They should not shut down your account - they should at the worst deny the transaction or at best, require the merchant to call the bank. The merchant would be asked to verify your id. Time to find a new bank if that is going to be their reaction. Trust me, they don't care one whit about you, it is all about minimizing their risk and possible "loss".

I have given them a profile SELENA.
71 y/o ladies dont buy 850.00 wedding dresses----am planning gdaughters wedding.
They dont know that.
If there's too many debit card hits in a day they shut my account down.
I like it that way.
Its policy.
My history shows I make a large(to me) cash withdrawal---one a month.

And have a flag on my credit.
Having been the victum of accounts opened in my name----the bank is authorized to be suspious.
And they have called me----to ask if I authorized XXX purchase.

Its a form of profiling----to me its a sure fire way of being quickly notified.

Besides my bank fees arent but 5.00 a month.
been there 12 years.
I like them---OK
Txanne

whitehairedidiot
10-15-2012, 11:12 AM
With debit cards - it's a reasonable technique and protects the account holder from being wiped out, as well as the bank's losses.

Friend of mine, bought gas on the way to visit me for the weekend. Used her debit card at the gas station. We stayed home that weekend, no shopping. On the way back, she used her card again -- but it was refused.

She called the bank, right from that gas station parking lot. Apparently, the first time she bought gas, the card was skimmed -- and 3 or 4 withdrawals took place in other parts of the WORLD; the payments weren't even in this country. The bank refused those payments and closed her account -- until they could get in touch with her.

Then, they issued her a new card.

Funnier story: I was attempting to upgrade Skype, so I could do an online interview for my business, in another state. I have one card that I use only for online stuff (keeps things easy for me to track) because I know they have a vigorous fraud prevention program. I tried twice to submit my card number on Skype's website - both attempts failed, so there was a paypal option... and I had just finished using that option (same card, by the way...) successfully -- and was walking away in total computer frustration by then when the phone rang.

Yep; it was my credit card company verifying that this activity was me. Guess I hadn't bought anything in a while, or it was my lucky day, or something.

---------------------
Even though this stuff is a pain in the butt - it does seem to work. And work well. My hubs has his own card with the same company. I read all the bills as they come in, and saw a 1-800-florist charge on the bill. Asked him which girlfriend he had to buy flowers for - since I hadn't gotten any!! ;)

He reported it; they closed his account and issued a new card -- and followed up with us on their investigation, as well. Caught the sleazeball.

Txanne
10-15-2012, 12:18 PM
WHI

You know you bring up a thought---many are on very limtted income(myself) and it would take but 1 or 2 of these transactions to wipe us out.

And having to back-track --close accounts,etc. could be expensive and is seriously stressful.

Just applying for wedding dress account caused my bank profile of my account to shut down.
After I talked to them----I got unmad and thanked them!!!!!

But it was a bit embrassing standing there---red-faced and hotter than a country road in July.
But---looks like it was worth all the hassle.

The bride and her Gmaw are happy.

annie

whitehairedidiot
10-15-2012, 01:43 PM
Yeah, I hear that Annie!

You know you haven't done a thing wrong, standin' there in front of someone who's got a 50-50 chance of thinkin' you have...

it's a "beam me up, Scotty" moment.

grumble
10-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Sorry about this being off on a tangent, but maybe someone will find it interesting.

I got mad at my credit card bank after having been with them for about 35 years. My first inclination was to just close the account, but it isn't like that would make any difference. So I decided to get even in any small way possible.

I kept the card but didn't use it for a couple months, then made a small, maybe $5, purchase with it. Waited for the bill to come in, and sent them a check for $5.50 using their postage paid envelope. For the next three months, they sent me a bill showing my $0.50 credit, then mailed me a check for the 50 cents.

Because of recent laws, they have to send a paper bill that has five or six pages that explain all sorts of things, like minimum payments, interest rates, etc. Even at their reduced postage rates, I know that sending the bill to me cost them almost a dollar in postage, plus the cost of preparing the bill and stuffing it in an envelope. All told, I figure I cost them probably $25 by the time they sent the refund check. Then the next month, I made another $5 purchase, and sent them another $5.50. I've been doing that for two years now.

Yeah, I know it's petty, and pretty silly. But it makes me feel better.

kfander
10-15-2012, 03:28 PM
I was burned while traveling by debit card once. Generally, I have enough money in my account that it doesn't affect me so much when a $50-100 hold is placed on my card for a couple of days, but I was traveling out of state one weekend when a few of them added up to an insufficient funds decline before I had arrived at where I was going. Fortunately, between what little I had on another card and some cash, I was able to get where I was going but had to forego meals on the way.

Our primary client/employer pays us through PayPal and, at this very moment, we're sweating it because of the other problem mentioned. We're usually paid on Friday night, directly into our PayPal accounts, but PayPal placed a hold on his account on Friday, which is done sometimes when, as mentioned here, something untoward is noted. Since it was late on a Friday when he realized it, nothing can be done until Monday, and so far we still haven't been paid.

There are certainly advantages to having a portion of your funds in cash.

whitehairedidiot
10-15-2012, 05:06 PM
Not petty at all Grumble!! :D

We try to torment our card guys, too. It's really not that hard to turn the table on 'em... and beat 'em at their own games.

Mom5farmboys
10-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Sorry about this being off on a tangent, but maybe someone will find it interesting.

I got mad at my credit card bank after having been with them for about 35 years. My first inclination was to just close the account, but it isn't like that would make any difference. So I decided to get even in any small way possible.

I kept the card but didn't use it for a couple months, then made a small, maybe $5, purchase with it. Waited for the bill to come in, and sent them a check for $5.50 using their postage paid envelope. For the next three months, they sent me a bill showing my $0.50 credit, then mailed me a check for the 50 cents.

Because of recent laws, they have to send a paper bill that has five or six pages that explain all sorts of things, like minimum payments, interest rates, etc. Even at their reduced postage rates, I know that sending the bill to me cost them almost a dollar in postage, plus the cost of preparing the bill and stuffing it in an envelope. All told, I figure I cost them probably $25 by the time they sent the refund check. Then the next month, I made another $5 purchase, and sent them another $5.50. I've been doing that for two years now.

Yeah, I know it's petty, and pretty silly. But it makes me feel better.

I made my husband read this post......He actually laughed out loud, which is rare for him. You made his day! :)

Selena
10-17-2012, 01:53 AM
I have given them a profile SELENA.
71 y/o ladies dont buy 850.00 wedding dresses----am planning gdaughters wedding.
They dont know that.
If there's too many debit card hits in a day they shut my account down.
I like it that way.
Its policy.
My history shows I make a large(to me) cash withdrawal---one a month.

And have a flag on my credit.
Having been the victum of accounts opened in my name----the bank is authorized to be suspious.
And they have called me----to ask if I authorized XXX purchase.

Its a form of profiling----to me its a sure fire way of being quickly notified.

Besides my bank fees arent but 5.00 a month.
been there 12 years.
I like them---OK
Txanne

Fees - bleh - back in 1998 fees accounted for 40% of bank profits, most likely much higher today. Why do you even consent to a fee, or should I say profit? I pay no fees nor will I escrow. Then again, I may have more options for banking than you.

Notification is one thing, shutdown is another. Shutdown is BS - shows me a lack of technology.

HowdyDo
10-31-2012, 08:55 PM
Sorry about this being off on a tangent, but maybe someone will find it interesting.

I got mad at my credit card bank after having been with them for about 35 years. My first inclination was to just close the account, but it isn't like that would make any difference. So I decided to get even in any small way possible.

I kept the card but didn't use it for a couple months, then made a small, maybe $5, purchase with it. Waited for the bill to come in, and sent them a check for $5.50 using their postage paid envelope. For the next three months, they sent me a bill showing my $0.50 credit, then mailed me a check for the 50 cents.

Because of recent laws, they have to send a paper bill that has five or six pages that explain all sorts of things, like minimum payments, interest rates, etc. Even at their reduced postage rates, I know that sending the bill to me cost them almost a dollar in postage, plus the cost of preparing the bill and stuffing it in an envelope. All told, I figure I cost them probably $25 by the time they sent the refund check. Then the next month, I made another $5 purchase, and sent them another $5.50. I've been doing that for two years now.

Yeah, I know it's petty, and pretty silly. But it makes me feel better.
:sarcastic:I do this too!

Selena
11-02-2012, 01:00 AM
I have given them a profile SELENA.
71 y/o ladies dont buy 850.00 wedding dresses----am planning gdaughters wedding.
They dont know that.
If there's too many debit card hits in a day they shut my account down.
I like it that way.
Its policy.
My history shows I make a large(to me) cash withdrawal---one a month.

And have a flag on my credit.
Having been the victum of accounts opened in my name----the bank is authorized to be suspious.
And they have called me----to ask if I authorized XXX purchase.

Its a form of profiling----to me its a sure fire way of being quickly notified.

Besides my bank fees arent but 5.00 a month.
been there 12 years.
I like them---OK
Txanne

You don't get to give them a profile - profiles, technically models, are comprised of actual loss data provided by the institutions all over the world (times adjusted to GMT). Your institution can *choose* what rules/parameters to set. If they want to do the minimum - card lost/stolen, card closed, over credit limit/available funds based on last file, so be it.

MYellowRose
12-02-2012, 10:01 PM
I made, for me at least, a major purchase today at Best Buy when I bought 3 Kindles for the oldest 3 granddaughters for Christmas. I'm standing at the register with $240 in my hand to pay and the girl turned the credit/debit card thing around to face me. I looked at it, looked at her, waved the money and said "I'm paying with cash". Should have seen the look on her face when I handed the the bundle of $20's which she then had to stand and count before entering it into the register. She kept looking at the register like she wasn't sure if she was doing the right thing on the screen. I didn't see another person, while I was in that store, and I watched several people check out, use actual paper money. It was kinda funny in a way.