When one is denied real weapons.

[jim]

A while back, an acquaintance in England stated their problems of having firearms for defense, and was worried about SHTF scenarios. Due to their legal problems of even keeping a firearm, much less using it during normal times he and friends were requesting alternatives to have around for troubled times. *Especially if a crowd want their stores.

The only suggestions I could offer him were the use of pseudo-medieval weapons and armor. Archery is allowed with field points only, so that's at least some sort of stand off weapon, as are spears and atlatls. A wooden ball from a croquette set or one of those heavy rubber "Kong" chew toys would make good maces and flails. Hatchets are good, as are slingshots. Various types of sports helmets, and body armor are available, and a shield can be made easily.

I think they can still have muzzle loaders, but they don't want to explore that option. I pray we never fall into those hard times where self-defense isn't allowed.

Any other suggestions?

jim

[chloe3388]

Close quarters aerosol cans and a bic, Molotov cocktails, heavy duty sling shots with metal balls, mace and pepper spray if available.

[MadTripper]

How about a light chainsaw? Sure its up close and personal but having someone come at you with a chainsaw would be very frightening.

[RangerRick]

Sometimes laws are just wrong and of course that puts one in the position of thinking for oneself and making that possibly critical decision and taking personal responsibility for said decision.

Rick

[Pitdog]

I reccomend tooling, lots of tooling, so that in the event of SHTF when laws don't particularily have meaning, then one can make firearms if necessary.
If they own business and are worried about the initial outbreak, I would say securing the building would be first and foremost. If they can't easily get in, they can't easily be a threat. HEAVY doors, and heavy expanded metal to go over windows. They might break the glass, but so what.
Once the mob has firgured out it can't get in, it will move on to other easier game.
I would say bar all doors and windows in a fortress like fashion and head to the roof with buckets of hot water or some manner of molotov of their own. Heck dump a gallon of petrol on the ones closest the door and and stand ready with a flaming arrow, guaranteed they will withdraw.
The scariest thing they have to consider are the criminals on the street that DO have the guns he surrendered. I would also NOT be above a muzzleloader at all. If you shot from inside, they won't know it was a muzzle loader, they will only know it was a gun and the first to fall will be an example to the rest.

[longshot]

times like this are when you need to take your weapons under ground. *things like cricket bat for a club, *bows with field points, atlatl, *hatchets and bush knives, staffs from large push rooms, spears (collections are good ways to hide weapons in plain sight.)

just a few thoughts
ls

[CSA_Again]

A tube sock full of wood screws?

[dannistim]

The best weapon we all possess is our brain. Lacking superior weapons you'll NEED superior tactics. Slingshots are OK but must be thought of as a slightly longer ranged billy club. It really hurts and leaves one hell of a bruise but only a shot to the throat would incapacitate and then only after the throat had swollen sufficiently to restrict airflow. They must be thought of as pain compliance weapons. Even a lightweight draw bow would be superior. A field point becomes a wicked short range weapon with a convenient piece of broken glass glued to it. The glass is likely to break off leaving the field point easy to withdraw and reuse. My personal favorite is the home made blow gun. Mine is made from 5 ft of 3/4" aluminum tubing with a pvc 1 1/4" step down adapter that comes close to the tubing diameter reamed out and pounded on for a mouth piece. The other end gets a similar treatment but with a smaller bit of pvc to protect the muzzle. I painted mine to look like a walking stick and added a crutch tip to the bottom. As for Darts I use everything from coat hangers, music wire, large nails, used chopsticks... My favorite darts are made from 8" of wire from the sturdy chrome plated coat hangers available at walmart NOT the free ones from drycleaners. They are ground to an angled tanto style chisel edge (pierces clothing and meat better than conical point) on one end and have 1/4" folded over on the other for retention of the stopper. The stopper is a tightly wound paper cone covered with packing tape and makes up more of the length of the dart than the wire. I use half a sheet of copier paper cut lengthwise. They resemble ice picks with paper handles. They pierce unbelievably deep in flesh. A couple weeks of diligent practice will render you an expert able to impale a golf ball at 30 feet with hardly any effort 4 out of five times. The real beauty of blow guns is how they can be hidden. A short one or a take down one could be easily hidden amongst a set of golf clubs, in a shower curtain rod, as a walking staff, as the shaft of a floor lamp... They are accurate, silent, cheap, maintainance free (if made of aluminum and plastic), and have a fairly rapid rate of fire (compared to a muzzle loader or crossbow), require technique rather than strength. Ammo is easily improvised from inoccuous materials. Effectiveness of terminal performance can be enhanced through the use of commonly available substances. The capsicum in ground hot pepper can be extracted with denatured alcohol and common enzyme based laundry stain removers are more potent that rattle snake venom when introduced into the blood stream. Word of warning: poisoning darts is illegal, and should only be done when the systems that enforce laws have collapsed. Also apply the poison to the shaft not the tip. That way if you stick yourself you're not SOL. All this said a blow gun would still not be my first choice in a confrontation. That would fall to a machete. A blow gun excels at quietly removing trouble makers or being fired mortar like for crowd control. There is no muzzle flash or noise so, with proper concealment, you can take pot shots at a riot at will ;)

[flatwater]

Exploding arrows are easy to build and would be very usefull in a small cross bow. But being out of sight is better as in out of sight out of mind.
Flatwater

[homesteadingnky]

A PVC "tater gun" can be loaded very creatively and deadly. Not close to the top of the list but a real hoot to shoot and it is an option if you fell on hard enough times (so long as you don't run out of aqua net)! LOL!! ;D

[PK.]

How about a good ole Bowie knife.

When I was a Police Officer I always thought we should be allowed to carry swords.

[edward_4576]

Kurt Saxon - nuff said

8)

[flatwater]

Don't forget that the darts could be dipped in human excretement which would cause a terrible infection and keep that enemy down for awhile. Pit traps with spikes worked on us in Nam. There is no nice nice in war , ya do what ya have to to survive. To much nice nice and you will lose every time.
Flatwater

[sam12six]

For up close and personal, it's not too difficult. Just think, "what would they NOT think of as a weapon?"

You can drive around your entire life with a claw hammer in the floorboard, and nobody will ever think of it as a weapon, but have a hunting knife in the pocket of your door and you'll get, "Just what were you planning to do with this?"

Long range is much, much tougher. I think if I were really, truly worried about it happening in the near future, what I would do is set up a metal-working shop and start a hobby like ugly modern art that gives me an excuse to have all sorts of pipes and such lying around.

Between this and a good stash of 12G ammo, a few cans of 4f powder, + any specs you might need buried in an airtight container somewhere close by, I think this is the best you could do as far as improvising.

On the other hand, if you're going to stash ammo, you might as well stash a gun to shoot it with. As for bows and slingshots, sure they're legal right now, but if there were going to be some sort of organized round-up, I'd imagine they would use some sort of terrorist search excuse to go door-to-door in the areas in question to sieze anything they considered a danger to them, so you would need to be able to hide even these weapons, and again, if you're going to hide a bow, you might as well hide a gun.

People in the country would probably have the most prep-time, because going door-to-door would take forever, what with the doors being so far apart.

[ArmySGT.]

Gather your resources.

http://therionarms.com/resources.html

http://www.brighthelm.org/armour/

[OzarkMtnDaredevil]

Kurt Saxon - nuff said

8)

Good ol' Kurt! Lives not far from me. :) His Poor Man's James Bond books are a Must Have, IMO.
Muriatic (hydrochloric) Acid, when introduced to granulated Aluminium, will produce a gaseous cloud that is non-lethal unless you can't get away from it. The finer the aluminium granuals, the faster the chemical reaction and the denser the cloud as more surface area is exposed. Basic chemistry.
The human body simply can not breathe/inhale the gas that is released by this mixture. If one can't escape the cloud, suffocation follows.

Where to buy Muriatic (hydrochloric) Acid? Hardware or Swimming Pool stores. It's great for cleaning cement.
Powdered Aluminum is a different story. Don't ask me. I know nothing. Make your own. Have a Coke and a File. I mean... Smile.

[edward_4576]

I was thinking about the four winds shotgun....

8)

[lateaprildawn]

Hi all, I hope you dont mind me joining the discussion at this point.

I dont want to end up making any really controvertial comments regarding differences between the sexes , ability skills etc. I can only give you a picture of things for me, my situation and my home circumstances.

I am in the uk, inner city, female, mid 40s, caucasian, living in an area that is multicultural.

clarification !! I am now a minority.

I am trying to take a sensible approach to self defence and preparedness.


To be honest my main tactic will be to blend in and keep a very low profile. I havent the skills or the opportunity to become skilled with firearms.

My father does own shotguns, has been a hunter all his life, is a member of a gun club, and a shooting club and has to jump through more and more hoops each year to retain his licence.

Here, the ownership of any weapon has to have an explainable and valid reason , self defence is out of the question .

I have thought more and more about how to defend my self if the worst came to the worst and my best ammunition is brain power. Joining sites like this gives very me very valuable information. Having to contemplate "worst case scenarios". Too many people have their heads in their sand.

I dont know if its just a british thing but so many people seem to think that if they ignore things they will just go away.

So back to the topic.

I am denied real weapons.

I can however use/store any item that has an "accepted" everyday use that wouldnt call attention to me.

I do have an air rifle .22 and a pistol .22. Thats all i am allowed. I can keep in practice by shooting rats on my local allotments. This may seem poor defence but remember we dont see guns at all here. I reckon even a .22 pistol would freeze or make a potential attacker pause for a moment.

I am an avid self suficiency freak, so I have a good supply of regular tools that "could" be used as defence weapons, eg a machette i bought to cut down brushwood.

I do have a tool box , upstairs, downstairs, at the bottom of my garden and one hidden near to my home. Full of "multi purpose" items. they could be tools or weapons. Take your pick.

I would play possum and become the archetypcal " poor little woman " if my life depended on it.

My best weapon is to continue to learn, to absorb all the idea and suggestions that you guys mention.

I keep good stores, items to trade, basic fire, water and food items (several caches in different places), very simple but items that will give me the edge....I hope.

Thanks for all the ideas folks,
Best wishes,
April

[WileyCoyote]

I like a .22. It is my weapon of choice for quiet sudden defense in armament situations. It is quieter than a .38, .45, rifle, or shotgun ("POP" as opposed to "BAAAANNNGGG" or "THWUMP") and can be easily mistaken for a car tire blowing or a firecracker at short distances. And to paraphrase Steve Martin - when you use a .22, there is less dry cleaning involved. :o ;D ;) Unlike a large bullet, a .22 can kill more readily because it travels around inside a body, ripping vital organs as it travels. In EMS I worked on more dead bodies with .22 holes than larger caliber ones. One .22 bullet entered a victim's lower chest and ripped all the way thru to his rectum, never exiting. .22's ricochet around,off bones and other stuff, Gawd bless 'em!

The caches are good ideas, I think, and having weapons like 'paring knives', etc, are good ideas to be hidden with them. The problem I see is that many people do not know how to fight with knives, and hold them like TV actors do - straight out in front of themselves. A knife hilt should be held in the palm, fingers curled round, the blade backwards toward the body, with the back of the blade aligned against the forearm. This makes it more difficult to see and far more difficult to defend against. It takes some practice, but it can be used swiftly and accurately; one distracts the attacker with the other hand/arm or a kick, and brings one's forearm down and across - preferably on the jugular, always on an exposed flesh, as hard as one can and drawn swiftly back towards the body. This keeps the attacker from grabbing, kicking, knocking, or taking away the blade, and is an unexpected sudden wound. By the time they realize you HAVE a knife, they are already injured.

I had six years in what was called "water-karate" - the flowing toward and away from the attacker, letting the attack flow past one and causing damage during the 'flow'. It is subtle and graceful and very misleading.

We used 'sticks' as well, about two feet long - like shortened and sanded-smooth quarterstaves - held against the body and whipped out to trip or schmack the opponent in vulnerable spots. You can use the end of a stick to punch a vital organ with sudden and vicious concentrated force, or the sides of the stick to hit them in the temporal area, knocking them out... the varieties are endless. Shins are particularly vulnerable to a sudden painful rap, as are forearms - with enough force you can break one or both bones of a forearm. And we came home from class with many bad bruises until we learned how! No matter what form of weapon you use, constant practice will make its use in a sudden situation automatic. And THAT is the most important thing - a second's hesitation to be as aggressive as necessary and one can die.

Remember that in a crisis situation there will be little opportunity for "trade" - the havenots will use any means necessary to part the haves from their goods. Watching the debacle of Katrina should keep that in the back of your mind - food riots, pandemic situations, natural disasters, cause mob hysteria and ganglike reactions. Best to lay low and not let anyone know that you have anything to 'trade' - other than a swift and accurate defense. IMHO.

[matt608]

I'm from the UK and remember the "crowd" wont have guns either so I'm not sure how much they need a weapon. Nevertheless they could always use an airsoft gun and pretend it is a real gun. They are legal if they own the land.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm from the UK and remember the "crowd" wont have guns either so I'm not sure how much they need a weapon. Nevertheless they could always use an airsoft gun and pretend it is a real gun. They are legal if they own the land.


And you believe this? Why?

Watch any news video of a riot in any particular country that you like. You will see that the mob has armed themselves with anything from clubs and rocks to explosively launched homemade bombs.

Besides the UK still has real violence perpetrated with improvised firearms to real firearms smuggled in from eastern europe. So don't kid yourself that because the Sovereign has forbidden the honest man from keeping firearms for sport or protection that the criminal is going obey that edict.

[walls0stone]

"When Guns are Outlawed, only Outlaws will have guns."

[docsoos]

The best weapon we all possess is our brain. Lacking superior weapons you'll NEED superior tactics.

Indeed, Sir!

My condolences to the honest Brits here amongst us "Colonials". ;D

Alas, to the problem at hand. I think you all have overlooked one of the BEST firearm alternatives ever devised:

IMPROVISED MUNITIONS. ;D ;D ;D

No, I'm not advocating "Anarchy In The U.K." (That sounds familiar, somehow.... ;D) And, as far as I know, it's not ILLEGAL for Brits to KNOW how to do something, OR have in your possession some items that MIGHT be used for SELF-DEFENSE, even though they have LEGITIMATE DAILY HOUSEHOLD USES. I'd check into the legality first, but you might be "carried off" before they (the government) gave you a straight answer, or get put on one of their "watch lists" just for asking. So, pleasant household item shopping!

USE that brain, READ UP on HOW TO MAKE these goodies, STORE the COMPONENTS away, and when needed, ASSEMBLE THEM with common household tools and methods. Most of the "items" to assemble these devices are quite useful around the house, and you probably already have most of them, anyway.

THE ABSOLUTE BEST example of "dangerous reading material" is the U.S. Army Training Manual, TM 31-210, "Improvised Munitions Handbook". Here is a link to the ENTIRE TEXT, FREE, on the Internet:

http://www.libertylib.com/improvised-munitions-handbook/improvised-munitions-handbook.shtml

Store things that are COMPLETELY INNOCUOUS, in and of themselves. For example: gas barbeque grills are as common as dirt here in the U.S. Maybe Liquid Propane or Butane Gas space heaters are over there. They both use 20 pound LP Gas cylinders for fuel. You all can imagine what would happen when a 20 pound cylinder of pressurized, flammable gas is suddenly vented and ignited: INSTANT mob (or front-porch attackers) vaporization. Talk about your dual-purpose household item.... ;D

All from the comfort of your own easy chair upstairs, if you so desire AND TRAIN AND PLAN FOR. Best thing is, these "toys" are alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and in the scenario(s) mentioned here (SHTF), "boobytraps" and "being illegal" would be the LAST thing you or the authorities would be worrying about. They'd have their hands full, anyway.....

The point is, where there's a will, there's a way. Just be careful if Mr. Bobby is watching your keyboard. ;) It's rumored that you all have more video surveillance in England than anywhere in the world. Surely you all haven't graduated to the "dangerous books and ideas" phase; Hitler and Stalin tried that, once..... :o

DocSoos

[Lanark_Sixgunner]

Tube sock with drywall screws or a can of tomato soup!

[Theyeti]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some municipalities in the UK abjure 'citizens' from even having an item 'laid aside' for self-defense (as in by your bedside or on the night table) if it's 'sole' purpose is for self-defense. I had read this somewhere and had thought that it was utterly ridiculous. Too ridiculous to be true. So does it come down to not mentioning that you have an 'item' otherwise inocuous as a 'defense' item (cricket bat, brick, table leg, etc.)?

???

[Country_Mike]

Old commie-bloc entrenching tools are inexpensive and handy to have around. These things can hold a decent edge and are fairly sturdy. I used mine for gardening this past summer and will have it in my car this winter for shoveling snow and "other things", if necessary.

[swampyankee]

Cold steel has some good tomahawks, which are very good in face to face situations. They are light enough to be swung fast and repeatedly, and the blows are powerful enough to do what you need it to do. ;)

[walls0stone]

can also distill gun powder from human waste. Look up John Harrlidson (sp?) and the war between the states.

[MooseToo]

I'm from the UK and remember the "crowd" wont have guns either so I'm not sure how much they need a weapon. *Nevertheless they could always use an airsoft gun and pretend it is a real gun. *They are legal if they own the land.

holy crap - "legal for a land-owner to possess a toy gun"
-
doesn't that warm your cockles -

[Country_Mike]

Cold steel has some good tomahawks, which are very good in face to face situations. They are light enough to be swung fast and repeatedly, and the blows are powerful enough to do what you need it to do. ;)

Apparently the first Royal Marine Commandos used something very similar to that when they boarded vessels during ship to ship battles way back when. I am definitely looking into getting one for the car. Thanks for the post. :)

[flatwater]

WallsOstone , I would rather fling the crap at them or put it in an old sock. It's hard to hit back while trying to clean crap off you face.
Flatwater

[otterbob]

Kurt Saxon - nuff said
8)

Agreed !

Otter Bob

[trey.mac]

actually happened to stumble across this site when doing an internet search for the prison contraband bolt action pistol i saw on an episode of mythbusters:
www.thehomegunsmith.com

never heard of Kurt Saxon, but this P.A. Luty, a bloke from across the pond, seemed to have an idea or two about what was going on with gun control in the old world. served a four year stretch for his first book, Expedient Homemade Firearms, and for having built a 7.62 smg that is laid out in the book. now, it may be illegal to have something set aside for a SHTF, but if Big Brother cant find all the pieces of the gun lying around waiting to be assembled in a short period of time, then what can they do? Bullocks like this just makes me proud to live in the US of A.

p.s. you do have to pay for most of his books, which could place you on some kind of watch list, but there is a good design for a 9mm smg for free that you could access thru net proxies to avoid govt intervention.

p.p.s mind you, this is kind of for the extreme SHTF moments, i still believe, perhaps naively, that an overzealous home invader or mugger could be dealt with with cold steel...or warm steel, as i've heard it sometimes gets hot in England?

[walls0stone]

Flatwater,
it's also hard to fight back when you have a bullet lodged in your chest, sent down range by 180 grains of what was once Poo. Did you know that the buttons on most uniforms from 1600-1800's were made to go down in place of rounds.

[flatwater]

WallsOstone, Interesting but no I didn't know that. thanks for the info.
Flatwater

[Mad_Professor]

Not sure how England treats them, but companies make 45-50 cal air rifles that have been used to kill buffalo.

[wtcreaux]

Folks,

Just from a former LEO (law enforcement officer) and survival instructor - firearms have a certain 'cool' factor to people. BUT, in reality, what you have ON you when you are attacked is what you will have to deal with and, MORE importantly, what you have in your HAND is what you will use.

In violent aircraft crash survival, the majority of survivors have documented they survived with what was ON them (as compared to the survivl kit in the aircraft) due to the violent impact and having been thrown from the aircraft.

Ask any LEO regarding being attacked by knife-wielding attacker. We were taught if he is within 21 feet (magic number due to the diagonal distance of common living room in houses), and you're firearm is not in your hand, do NOT go for your firearm - you will probably NOT survive the encounter.

This is a different concept, but I would encourage folks to look at Close-Quarter Combat lessons from WWII. Folks like Fairbairn and Rex Applegate developed a hand-to-hand system for all ages and sexes (remember the Home Guard in England during the dark days of the Battle for Britain). There are a few folks today still teaching this system (basis can be learned in a day). these include John Kary in WV and Dave Walmsley in Canada. Both can be found by googling.

In the end, your protection is YOUR responsibility (LEOs are there for the pubic protection - check the US Supreme Court 8). Your protection should (IMHO) be based off an offensive mindset.

Cheers and MERRY CHRISTMAS
wtc ;D

[tufhelp]

You are absolutely right about that magic 21’ distance with a knife wielding combatant. In a former life when I was a TV producer/director our production facility was hired to update a close combat training tape that was about perps armed with knives. I was totally amazed by the closing rate of the BGs on the LEOs who as you say did not have their weapon in hand and went for it when the BG charged – they didn’t stand a chance going for their guns. Seeing someone standing 21 feet away, you say “No way can they get to me before I can get to my gun.” But then have them charge you and in the blink of an eye they are on you and stabbing B-Jesus out of you…

[silvergramma]

slingshots and slings... easily hid.. ammo cheap.. practice practice ... and i would love to learn knife throwing

[Scout]

Try a good hardwood hiking staff. I am learning Boa Staff because staffs make a good weapon, and you are rarely out of reach of an improvised staff (broom, curtain rod, piece of PVC, big stick, etc.) A hiking staff is inconspicous, and to enhance the image of it being a not-weapon, you couls have a leather laynyard on one end. If the tip is iron shod, that's a bonus. If you make one, or buy one, make sure it's about nose height, smooth, and thick enough to be strong. And if a staff is too "dangerous," a broom is better than nothing (assuming those aren't regulated too...).

[flatwater]

With a broom you could at least make a clean sweep of things ::)