US vs Russian: A reliable battery of semi autos

[knucklehead]

I know I am new to this forum and no one "knows me" yet, but I have read BHM for years and followed Ayoob in other magazines. Similar to many others here, we value reliable tools and appreciate simple solutions. We often use hand tools where others may use power tools at times for exercise and simplicity (screwdrivers are often closer than the Makita when driving a half dozen smaller screws). When I saw Massad Ayoob's first blog, I was reminded of a firearms related idea that has been banging around in my head. Below is the comment I posted on his blog, which I hope he reads and responds to. If I have missed a thread discussing this, would one of you kindly point me to it?

My comment on the blog page:

----------------------------------
Thanks for taking this step - you have already proved you are breaking out of the Luddite shell with the comment that blogs allow more personal expression. It is this comment that compels me to write…

Your (and others) focus on the real issues of personal and home security via common sense articles written in various magazines over the years have provided a welcome contrast to the gadget-addicted focus of many others. Our household and personal behavior has been influenced toward greater safety and security in part by you, and I was pleased and not surprised to find your name on articles in BHM when I “discovered” the magazine years ago.

Enough starry-eyed fan worship! I would like you to add your comments, in a more personal, ruthless-as-possible manner, to the endless flow of information available on the Whirled Wide Web about the effectiveness and operational reliability of inexpensive, surplus type self loading weapons. I am particularly interested in widely available Russian SKS, AK, type carbines and their clones. We are a common-sense, responsible rural family not far to your East and North looking to expand our lever, bolt, and revolver type weapons to include practical self loading weapons. We place a premium on reliability and have changed over the years from “running junk” (cars, saws, mowers, etc) to making carefully planned purchases of better-quality equipment that works when we need to use it.

Sticking to the above “formula” as it relates to personal security, we would acquire a pistol-carbine-rifle battery that pretty much mirrors US-issued small arms: the Colt pattern .45, an AR type carbine (preferably converted from direct gas impingement to gas piston operation), and an M1A-type rifle. Equipping a family of two responsible adults with the above, “one per” of each type, accessories, and a moderate stock of ammo approaches Ten Grand pretty quickly for something that does not till soil, move snow, or help produce a stack of hardwood.

I have been at ranges to observe and shoot surplus/inexpensive ammo in relatively expensive AR type weapons, which as you well know quickly reduces those slick .223s from the status of “firearm” to “club”. I have also seen AK & SKS variants digest everything short of small rocks propelled by a couple firecrackers. I am therefore interested in the latter, which apparently seem to have magically crossed that “you get what you pay for” boundary - cheap AND reliable.

I have plowed my way through sites/forums like AKrocksdotcom and studlyARshooterdotorg, and in all the time spent doing so I keep wondering what writers like you, freed from the commercial constraints of magazine publishing, would have to say about the reliability and relative value of the Eastern Bloc brothers (comrades?) to our American weaponry.

Sorry for the length of this comment, but…I dare ya!
----------------------------------

I hope to encourage Massad Ayoob to contribute to this thought process and would greatly appreciate any and all comments from others here on this subject.

Edited for spelling

[remington]

Alright. The Russian SKS is a cheap, solid, dead-reliable weapon. I like them over the AR-15 for several reasons. One of which is the price. I cant afford $1,000 guns. The SKS sells for about $200 here. The SKS is more reliable with a variety of loads and ammo (surplus) and it is battle proven since WWII. You can buy 4 or 5 SKS's for the price of one AR. You choose.

[knucklehead]

Thanks, remington; I've been "circling" the SKS for a while and wondering why it has been taking a back seat to the AK variants. Movies, I figure, mostly. I'm not looking for MOA accuracy at 100 yds +/- from a carbine anyway; I'm looking for MO-Grapefruit in something more like a semi auto version of the old Model 94; a reliable truck gun, and the SKS seems right.....plus I can get it mail order with a C&R license.

[High_Desert]

My .02,

For years, I down played the AR 15's. Too small caliber, plastic, ugly.... ect.

A couple of years ago, after the ban was over, I bought one simply because some government stooge's said I could not. I have now had a couple of years to form an opinion.

Yep, its still ugly, but I am a traditional walnut and blued steel guy. Accurate? absolutely, reliable ? That it is. I have shot factory ammo, Russian ammo and a lot of my own hand loads.
Zero issues here.

It is a handy little thing though, easy to carry or throw in a vehicle.

What would I use it for? Not sure. I wont hunt with it unless I had too. Pleasure shooting is usually with single shots and revolvers. Like I said, I am a traditionalist. But I am not in hurry to sell it either. Bump in the night gun? Maybe... I will keep playing with it and thinking. Right now, it serves as a travel rifle. Something that stashes well for trips to the city. Like I was saying, its a pretty handy package.

The other thing nice is its like owning a 69 Camaro, there are probably more parts out for it than any thing else I have seen. Easy to customize, although I have left mine alone.

BTW, my SKS's shoot much better than MO Grapefruit. Great guns to have around.

Best Regards,
HD

[remington]

If that is what you're looking for in a gun, the SKS will be great. There are no detachable clips to lose (only stripper clips, great inventions). You can shoot surplus. And it is almost impossible to break. I'm with you on the MOA thing. I look for minute of coyote, but to each his own. The reason the AK is more popular is because it is the in gun along with the AR. Noone questions an AK carrying guy.

[knucklehead]

I hear you, High Desert; I've noticed the widely available accessories for the AR. I have friends and relatives who own/shoot ARs and the only complaint I have is that they can be finnicky about ammo and/or cleanliness. I've seen (and done) the tap-tap-tap with a cleaning rod to get a stuck case out of an AR chamber. I've read article after article about the evils of direct gas impingement and about the gas-piston uppers available for ARs (which adds more expense). Seeing that hundreds of thousands of our military are using the AR everyday, I think if we take care of our firearms, they will take care of us, so to speak.

In my comment to the Ayoob article in the initial post on this thread, I mentioned I am thinking of adding self loading firearms to the lever/revolver type equipment I know and love now. Carbines like the SKS, AK or AR are only one of three weapons I am looking into; the other two being a 1911-style pistol and a full sized .308 rifle (M1A, HKG3, FAL).

What drives me is expense; firearms are not the only item on the "list" of maintenance/independence items we are attending to as we make our lives more resilient and independent from outside goods & services.

I am looking to follow the "levergun" method of simple, handy, and reliable that I have used up until now. No offense to the AR guys; I like to read their forums and shoot my friends' firearms. A grand or so for one firearm in a minor caliber seems like a lot to me, so I am looking for other reasonable paths. If I can't find one (I think I have) or if some others with expertise in this area convince me I need to spend the most on a carbine and not on a pistol or rifle, then I'll gladly accept the advice.

[High_Desert]

Yep, so many guns, so little time and hard to justify buying them all!

A friend of mine has a MIAI "scout". Nice handy package and it shoots a "real" cartridge. ;D

I have been unable to justify the 1500 dollar price tag myself right now amd they dont seem to be availible on the used market.

I wish I would have bought a 30-06 Garand when they were so cheap too.

Oh well, half the fun is in the search!

Best Regards,
HD

[wy0mn]

Russian SKS's aren't cheap any more, depending on the year, armory, & consistent serial numbered parts you can pay more.
I have a Yugoslavian SKS ($200 range) I purchased on my new C&R license, & added some upgrades.
The SKS was never designed to have a scope, and I've seen better iron sights on BB guns! There are several methods to attach one to them, but all the reviews for scope equipped SKS's are gloomy at best.
I haven't fired mine since adding the scope.http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/wy0mn/080308006.jpghttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/wy0mn/080308007.jpg

[knucklehead]

wy0mn - if you don't mind saying and if you used one of the larger vendors like Century or Southern Ohio Guns or whatever, who did you use and how did you like dealing with them? I have a C&R license also and have have been checking out the different online deals. Tomorrow I am going to a local place with surplus stuff and plan to check out the milsurps. If anything "exciting" results, I will check back in with a report. I'd be interesting to know how that scope turns out - is it a red dot type? Looks like either one of those or a fixed power scope from the size.

[wy0mn]

I ordered mine thru jgsales.com I was impressed with the knowledgeable phone answers, quality of the weapon, and rapid delivery; so much so that I wrote them a positive review.
(Stay away from the bottom end economy SKS's, even theirs. Some were used with corrosive ammo apparently & have darkened bores with reduced accuracy. JG cautions against this, whether you buy from them or someone else.)
The scope is a cheapie fixed power Chinese make. It came with the mount I wanted.
The mount is built into a replacement cover for the receiver.
From the reviews this type of mount is the best available for individual installation unless your also a gunsmith with specialized tools.
I hope to do some shooting tomorrow, went fishing today instead.
If that scope doesn't work I have a Simmons ProDiamond fixed x4 thats probably short enough to handle the SKS ejection. (I've read about brass deflectors but have yet to locate one.) Yeah its a shotgun scope, supposedly parallax free only to 50yds, but I never had a problem with it on my .45-70 GuideGun at 200yds or less.
Maybe you can clarify something for me too. I've been told that since I modified a C&R rifle I also MUST remove the grenade launcher & grenade sights. I can't find anything about it in my BATF package. Do you know the truth of the matter?
Lex

[knucklehead]

I haven't thought about modifying C&R firearms and the legal result until you just mentioned it! I don't have any semi-autos except 22s and the SKS or whatever I decide to pick up will be the first. I guess I'd better get up to speed on that, too! As you probably know, there are a ton of C&R sites out there and you just got me interested in a little research, my friend. I'll also quiz the place I am visiting today and see if they have knowledge of C&R laws.

Frankly, I have no problem shaving the unused stuff off a C&R firearm; I was going to take the bayonet off my M44 Mosin but I was told to do some accuracy testing first because the dang thing might act as a vibration damper and removing it might screw up accuracy.

[wy0mn]

Bon chance, on the milsurp shopping.
I'm leaving for my remote ranch to shoot, now. lol
I also don't have a problem shaving off superflous junk, except that the pins are all "punch" scored, if I'm making sense & describing it properly. Even the few screws in the piece are "punched" so they can't be backed out w/o dremmeling off the 'scar'.
12:45 Mtn time.
Scope works very well. Its the NCStar, and I had to screw it down to the lowest possible elevation setting with the mount I have.
Very windy today, eyes watering even in the best wind blocked arroyo I could find. Arroyo dictated a 70yd range. Very uncomfortable rocky slope for prone shooting. Two inch groups.
Lex

[knucklehead]

Just got back - this place is 85 miles North and we went to see family. FFL guy was not in, just left a copy of my license and chatted with the person behind the counter. Not a big selection of SKSs, but I found out they use same sources we could use. I noticed they have a couple crates of Mosins that they had marked up 160%, so if shipping is not huge I think I'll be buying via mail.

Good shooting, by the way, and thanks for the info. I'll dig a little later on laws and write here what I find out; I assume you'll do the same.

[wy0mn]

You bet. :)
I knew the iron sights were dead on, so I stabilized the rifle & tweaked the crosshairs to where they were pointing, then fine tuned it.
SKS's in Laramie sell for around $300 in the pawn shops, and many of those have been modified in a manner that I'd rather not attempt to shoot.
I suppose that now I'd better shell out some $ for a good stash of ammo. Probably the cheapest FMJ rounds I can latch my paws on to.

Today I was using Remington UMC 123gr.

Lex

[Mr.B]

Alright. *The Russian SKS is a cheap, solid, dead-reliable weapon. *I like them over the AR-15 for several reasons. *One of which is the price. *I cant afford $1,000 guns. *The SKS sells for about $200 here. *The SKS is more reliable with a variety of loads and ammo (surplus) and it is battle proven since WWII. *You can buy 4 or 5 SKS's for the price of one AR. *You choose.

Gotta agree with Remington here. SKS is the way to go I dont own one, a good friend dose. Ive fired it a ton of times, I mostly have Mosin Nagants. Ive seen SKS's at gun shows in with beat the crap stocks but in shootable shape, for $120.

If you want something with legendary reliability you could look at Saiga rifles. Basically sporting rifles built after the AK action. They come in 7.62x39, .223, and .308.

http://www.armsofamerica.com/firearms/saigarifles.html

[SingleStack45]

Last summer...I did 2 things. I built my first AR (been a Mini-14 guy since 1987)...and I sent off for my C&R.

I like the AR...and because of the wide availability of parts/accessories and my desire to tinker...I so far have enjoyed the platform.

But...getting the C&R started me looking at old mil-surp guns...(and looking for something to shoot 7.62x39 because I had trouble with the Mini-30 I bought)...I finally bought a Yugo SKS. It had been modified by the owner...who owns a gun shop and is allegedly a gun smith. He had chopped the flash suppressor, grenade launcher mount and bayonet off...added a US made aftermarket stock, plus a scope and mount to it. My son and I shot it...and enjoyed it a bunch...and then I bought some of the Tapco SKS magazines and removed the factory magazine...they performed flawlessly...and we enjoyed it all the more!

That led me to buy a Mosin M44 and a couple spam cans of ammo for it...and then just tonight...I traded my Century CETME (which I could not afford to shoot anyway) for a Norinco SKS M "Paratrooper"(and some other stuff) ...which actually uses the AK magazines.

While I have always been a "dyed in the wool" red, white and blue guy...I have to admit I am enjoying the heck out of buying and shooting the com-block guns.

So far...they have been reasonable to acquire (even though prices have been climbing), less expensive than other stuff to shoot (including my AR and Mini-14)...and have been reliable and reasonably accurate...

My 16yo son wants me to sell his .22 to buy another Mosin...I doubt I will do that...but another Mosin may be in the picture sooner than later... ;)