Building AR's from 80%

[LaunchPad]

Well it is the day. We've researched and put together our "designs" and pinched some pennies- ok a whole lot of pennies- club wise. We've ordered and recieved all the tooling and the jigs already . . . . even the gunsmithing videos. Anyting AR related we got it.

Finally, today is the day our AR club orders our 80% lowers- woo hoo. A Whoooooooole bunch of 'em. this is the first part in our build up.

I'm not much of an AR guy but i went into this big time to give 'em a fair shake.

One of the handfull (good thing the wife is a gun nut :) ) i am building is a chrome lined Stoner upper (i hope that does not mean he was token! :) ) and i'll be using all Stoner 30 rd mags. *(that name really is not giving me a warm fuzzy)

I need to keep pinching pennies for the HB one i want to build- maybe this time next year :D ???

Proof is in the pudding- shortly i'll have a good sample batch to put up against my collection of Mini 14's and we'll find out if this legend is real or just a hyped up bandwagon.

As it is now the ARs are trailing due to inflated cost- the cheapest we've been able to get a complete one (on paper) is $520 not to count the $600 in tooling- or shipping! My mini's all cost $400 stock and in my hands- no shipping - no special tooling. That $120++ difference per gun would go a long way towards other gear- so is the AR worth it? We'll see.

Stay tuned for the rest of the build up and some scientific head-to-head testing.

LP

[Uncle_Alvah]

Well, that Mini is a good rifle, but it's no AR by anymeans.
Build that AR right, and you'll sell off them Rugers....

[rassd71]

I look forward to seeing your progress reports!

[LaunchPad]

Well the crate of lowers are here and today we are ordering the parts kits that will go into them.

After A LOT of shopping the best deal going is currently at Midwayusa.com for right at $50. Includes grip, trigger, springs and pins made by DPMS too.

Stoner 30 round aluminum mags are on sale for $10.00

Since it is a new month and i finally have a new quota at the photo hosting service- pictures to come shortly!

[LaunchPad]

A couple of pics for you. vietnam era 30 rnd mag with one of the 80% lowers. Mag well is EDM cut and very smooth.

http://static.flickr.com/61/231214199_73b60c9c99.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/95/231214192_20bf93160c.jpg

Well almost to end of quota. i guess if i didn't upload 4+ mega pixel . . . .

[LaunchPad]

Ok guys tell me how we did here. Got a high end upper from Model1 sales. It ran $853 delivered to the door- *NO it is not mine i cannot afford something that fancy unless i get a big raise :D

http://static.flickr.com/91/248211865_5955ccbb41.jpg

20 inch, Chromed, heavy barrel, flutted, hariss bipod, free floating hand gard, flip up front and rear sights and detachable carry handle, bolt and charging handle included.

Ok here is the internals we picked up for the lowers- made by DPMS. Mags are Stoner 30 round and not mine either- another well funded individual in our club.

http://static.flickr.com/89/248209675_1736e2192e.jpg

The six position stocks 2 members ordered have not arrived yet but i'll try and post pics after the first when i have more space on the hosting service and they will surely be here.

Now- any AR guys out there saying that i am not giving the AR a fair shake against my mini 14's need to check into a mental instution because at last check and even before surface finishing is included the high end gun with the above upper is over $1100. My most expensive mini probably only cost $550 if it is stripped of the extras such as the high end AR here will be at completion- we all know it is not fair to compare the guns with all the "goodies" on them. Just to be fair i will shoot them head to head with iron sights then with my Trijicon Reflex Sight RX01NSN *attached and perhaps a 3-9 X 40 scope. But dollar for dollar that AR best shoot 1/4 groups. :)

[docsoos]

Dayuum, Buckwheat! You guys are going all out! Long time since I seen a lower "in the white!"

As for the Uppers, $850+ is a bit pricey. Local prices here (at a fairly expensive shop) running about $319.00 to $599.00 for Uppers, no bolt or carrier. Last gun show here you could buy a COMPLETE UPPER, bolt carrier and all, barrels from 11.5" to 18.5", for about $400.00 cash.

These are some examples:

SP-1 Colt, 1 in 12" twist, A-1 Pre-Ban, Like New, 399.99
R6601 Colt 20" HB, 1 in 7" twist, Pre-Ban, New, $449.00
R6520DC Colt, 16" Litewgt, A2, pre-Ban, New, $579.00

CZ Strakonice .22 LR Cal., 16" barrel, WITH bolt and carrier, NEW, $329.00

Bushmaster .22 LR, Flat-Top, 16" 1 in 9", Conversion Unit, New, $379.00

These were listed in Ky. Imports Spring catalog, not a lot of price differences even now, I'd bet.

www.kyimports.com

DocSoos

[LaunchPad]

Thanks for the links Doc- i was wondering if anyone was actually even reading the updates- not much by way of replies. :)


The upper here is the high end LOOOOOONG range one that a club member is building, he has much more disposable income than me so is running well ahead. His upper will probably be used to function check all of the lowers before anodizing. After MUCH price checking and comparison shopping it would be very difficult if not out right impossible to match that delivered price anywhere with the features of that HB upper. ( ordered on a Friday arrived on a Tuesday too!!)

The majority of us are actually using a stoner upper. Chrome lined, 20 inch, standard profile, A4, includes bolt and charging handle, $299 delivered- still very reasonable pricing.

I also am purchasing all of the tooling- since i own my own machine shop (mostly outfitted for auto racing stuff) i am funding the tools and intend to keep them. :) the annodizing equipment is going to run ~$1300.00+ sometime after Christmas (tax refund hopefully???) but then i can anodize some trannys, aluminum heads, and various other parts for my Baja race car for very little extra dough.- how cool is that?? Meanwhile, funding the tools is really slowing my progress up-( i only own a single vietnam era mag right now . . . . and my lowers :( , more than a bit jealous of our speedy members.)

The reverse osmosis water filter from the anodizing kit is getting installed in the race trailer/rv after our project is done too so i'll get much more use out of that.

The entire project was originally intended to be spread over a year to make it somewhat budgetable.

Maybe the guys pressing ahead at breakneck speed should be putting up a little more dough so the required tooling can be funded??? I'll run it by them- but most folks really do not like paying a single cent more than they originally agreed to.

[LaunchPad]

Getting ready to post some more updates but it sure took a while to find the thread.

Is anybody even reading this one? or am i wasting my time?

[Biker_Eagle]

Keep em coming LaunchPad.

[Eli80Cal]

Please keep us updated. I am researching the different 80%s to try to complete one, and am very interested in how it goes. BTW, Does anyone now if QuietBuy will purchase these?

[LaunchPad]

http://static.flickr.com/119/309113912_a889768522.jpg

Best deal going. High quality stock- 6 position adjustable with rail and battery compartment. This one came with spring and buffer tube for about $55. Try touching that deal anywhere else! vender was Cheaperthandirt.com

More tomorrow! Got a bit to do before i go to bed tonight.

[LaunchPad]

http://static.flickr.com/101/309130908_7130110676.jpg

Ok here we have one of our 80% lowers in a jig from CNC Gunsmithing. (The lowers are from Kevin mentioned on that web page- he worked us a GREAT deal and these are top quality)

What you see in the picture is the holes centers being transfered to the lower via transfer punches. the idea being that we were going to drill all the holes one size smaller than the jig so it will last then come back and use a set of chucking reamers to enlarge the holes to proper size.

The CNC gunsmithing jig is the best jig we could readily find out there after LOTS of homework on the subject (IMO). However, it still leaves a lot to be desired. For one, only the fire control holes are present leaving you to do tons of research on placement of every detent hole, the butt stock retainer, trigger guard holes, etc. We've made several modifications to the jig that i may include in an article for BHM mag making life MUCH easier for each sequential lower we work on or any following in our footsteps ;) (hope they take it!)

You might also notice a mirror to the rt in this picture. We broke one edge of the FRAME off of it and used it to true the lower to the jig seeing as it is one of the fltest and truest surfaces around for CHEAP.

[LaunchPad]

http://static.flickr.com/105/309130911_74abeb08db.jpg

Drilling the trigger guard holes. Not much really to see in the picture but once the holes were marked, we let the jig provide square to the table and just held it in place on the drill press table- it got the job done with no errors.

One thing to note is that the thickness of the jig and the debth of the holes required the itzy bitzy drill bit to be extended pretty far out of the chuck. This is generally a bad idea because the drill bit is more likely to walk and/or break on you.

We marked the holes using an actual trigger guard that came with the DPMS kit and our Harbor Freight transfer punches. This was one area the jig left us hanging.

We used my grandfather's ol'drill press i inherited about 2 years back because my mill could not hold that small of a bit. <sigh> Somewhere between Southern California and Colorado i lost the chuck key out the back of my pickup- using 2 pipe wrenches to change bits was terribly destructive and tedious. Anyone know where i can find a good 5/8 chuck key for a "Jeachin" chuck (mounted on a "tru-Drill")?

[LaunchPad]

http://static.flickr.com/100/309155671_44a83651b0.jpg

Here we are drilling the buttstock retainer detent with the ol' drill again. The mill was used for several lowers and the lil drillpress for a few more- so you don't really need anything special to accomplish this function.

The detent is barely even a hole. It is only .22 inch deep. This is another of the holes not provided for on the jig but is absolutely critical you have it placed correctly. You can see scribe lins on the Jig that will later be color coded to coincide with a drill chart. the plan is to be able to line up the lines with a straight edge, place a center hole and drill to debth from these in the future. (More than one set can be seen- as there are several holes to drill on this face)

We used an adjustible base to clamp to and a HUGE C-Clamp that is probably 50 years old i picked up in a scrap pile while at the North Pole.

[LaunchPad]

http://static.flickr.com/117/309130905_fe0e76a2dc.jpg

One 80% lower in the jig with a clear shot rear take down detent hole that is located without aid of the jig- a real bugger to properly locate and drill to the required depth with that tiny of a bit. Lots of cutting fluid and even more patience to VERY slowly proceed, always being sure no chips are building up on the bit and so far no breakages.

The other lower is complete and assembled with the DPMS fire control components. The fire control selector fell out somewhere on the bench because the dentent is held in place by the pistol grip. Dang ARs are overly complex and simple at the same time in this regard. Anyway, it function checks perfectly and is ready for annodizing.

All right guys - comments? Anything you want to see more of or hear about for the inbetweens??

I have a lot more pictures but there is only so many i can post on the photo hosting service at a time- let me know what you would like to see and i post them first.

[Farmer]

Most Excellent! Keep it going.

Take a look at photobucket (www.photobucket.com) for image hosting.

[LaunchPad]

If you guys don't want to see this thread disappear or for me to keep updating it- it will have to become sticky.

Reasons is: i am military and frequently get called for some "issue" that takes me away for bits of time. some long, some short. A simple 4 month deployemnt without a computer connection will see this thread disappear once it goes over 60 days old and no new posts.

Also, Winter weather in Colorado and an unheated shop kind of makes any NEW progress a bit slow.

[Farmer]

We'll keep an eye on it and post from time to time to make sure it doesn't expire. Or at least I will.

Be careful taking care of those "issues."

[LaunchPad]

Thanks guys, You rock!

Tax season is about upon us. i am hoping the return and saving will be enough for the anodization equipment we need to make these things serviceable!

Meanwhile, santa left lots of accessories for me that i cannot yet use with the ARs.

I did get to use several of the Golck goodies though!

need more time in the shop!

[unclesam]

Hey Launchpad, how's the project going?

[LaunchPad]

Glad you asked! Just got some new stuff in. sorry it has been a while work keeps me pretty busy and the weather hasn't been too cooperative either (need heat in my shop!)

I've been a little tied up with trying to get my taxes in so i can buy my own upper- most of the rest of the club is light years ahead of me at this point because i've been buying the tools.

On the subject of tools:

The butt stock area of the AR is one of the most critical areas to get right. We turned an otherwise perfect lower into a door stop messing up the threads for the butt stock on one lower. Being folks that do eventually learn from our mistakes we decide to hold of until we have a solution.

Well the solution is in folks!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/372697967_f0f9aefce0.jpg

Sorry i forgot to get before pictures of the tools. This is a picture of the shell reamer used to make sure the hole for the butt stock is perfectly square to the UPPER- that is important because the bolt recoils into the butt stock or buffer tube. If the tube is off ANY- it binds up.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/372697970_1bc8233f38.jpg

Because of variances in the hole size that will need threaded from one 80% lower to another we went and had a lead in with cutting edge put on the shell reamer *by a tool grinding company. $75 job.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/372697974_8d01b646d4.jpg

Next the tap is a very expensive and specialized tool- i do not know of another thing in the world that takes this size/thread combo tap and it was VERY difficult to find (cncgunsmithing has a part number with MSC-excellent resource)

The tap is next to impossible to get started square to the lower and is too big for any normal drill press out there for it to aid you. We needed a solution because try as we might a big lotto win seemed more likely than using it like it came to us and getting it right.

I haven't managed to get a better picture of the change we made to the tap- let me try again and i'll post later. Meanwhile, i'll have to discribe with words.

What we did was have the first half inch of threads ground to 1/10,000th smaller diameter than the shell reamer and square to the long axis. Then new lead in threads gound on it. This way the tap HAS to be square to the hole before the threads start cutting. Another $75 job.

Our next step:
We need to either get a spindle for the shell reamer that will slide into a bushing in an upper to gar-un-T it will be square andcentered on the bolt. Or make a handle to turn the shell reamer and find a very close tolerence shaft for it to slide on.

I think will will try the second of those approaches about Wed of next week (after pay day) because i have an easy to access source for those types of things locally vs the mail order thing.

I will try to remember to take MORE pictures.

Thank you for the interest and keeping the thread up!

[LaunchPad]

A quick note from work (mums the word)

I changed the title to be more accurate to the thread.

Our changes to how the butt-stock was done worked out 100%.

We have since finished milling the lower known as "Grumpy" and fired it the other night. I have pictures and video but cannot upload from here. Here are some pictures from the Grumpy lower thread before we finished milling.

http://static.flickr.com/99/313009821_d1eb138bab.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/100/313009825_330afde4af.jpg


Updates to follow shortly but will have to wait until i am home- tonight i have an engagement after work so probably late tomorrow sometime.

[LaunchPad]

Ok as promised- pictures of Grumpy for the test fire.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/404131417_0826b5f518_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/404131421_b661d8e9c5_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/404131425_778b1c731f_o.jpg

sorry scope rings hadn't come in yet so no scope mounted for the test fire. Next step is the annodizing.

I'll have pictures of the device we assembled to do the but stock hole on the lower soon.

I think once i can afford to do MINE i am going to put a modified Launch Pad on the side. :P

[Rick_O_Shea]

This may just be the coolest thread yet...I'm sorry I'm late to the party ;-)

[LaunchPad]

Thanks Rick- that does mean a lot.

Hey all,

It may be some time until i get back to this thread. I am heading to the sandbox for a bit of a stay after i finish some specialized training (why you haven't heard from me in a while).

Before I leave though, I hope to do a build up of a complete left-handed, "dissipater" upper (got all the parts). Of course time is very limited and I have A LOT of other things around the homestead to at least get into care taker status for my extended absence.

Please be kind and keep the thread open or talk to the powers-that-be to make it sticky so that it will remain a resource for others?

Thank you.

Launch Pad

[BIGGKIDD]

Cool thread way over my head.

Larry