You own just one gun for all,but, which one??

[Tightwad]

This question is aimed at those who might be able to own
and carry just one gun to do it all from self defense,hunting
attack weapon,etc. In general the only gun that you'll ever
need to survive both in a SHTF situation to everyday life.

Now I know that many just won't be able to narrow it to one
gun but in this case try real hard to imagine that "perfect
all 'round piece" to get you through life. The one qualifier is
that this gun must be able to be used WITHOUT modern
shells or must be easy to reload shells for.The reason for
this is that in a SHTF situation new ammo will be a big
problem.

Yes, I have my own idea what that gun might be but
I'd like others opinon on this topic to compare notes to.

Let the fun begin............

[Dan_Kane]

The fun (http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/yabb/forum.pl?board=firearms;action=display;num=1156370 007) already began...dragged on...and has thankfully ended ;-)

[Tightwad]

The fun (http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/yabb/forum.pl?board=firearms;action=display;num=1156370 007) already began...dragged on...and has thankfully ended ;-)


Sorry, mate but this thread is not as specific as mine if
you read my qualifier. This thread was open to ANY/ALL
types where mine limits critical features. *
*
After reading this thread my question is still unanswered *
WITHIN THE CONTEXT I ASKED IT. It may challange others
to think outside the box a bit but that's when you get your
best thoughts. *
*

[Toad_Sticker]

with the limitations you give.............
A flintlock smoothbore would fit well except from a self defense point of view then it would be a very poor choice.
Given the trade offs I would stick with my original pick in the afore mentioned posting.
A large caliber handgun most likely a .44 mag.
in a pinch you can load black powder and it will kill anything on this continent out to about 150 yards.
Primers being the limiting factor on reloading just about anything besides a flintlock.
My $.02
TS

[gunslinger2006]

+1 on the large bore revolver. A shot gun would be more versatile and a rifle could be more powerful and easier to shoot well, but when you add having to carry it that narrows your choices. I presume you meant that it has to be carried on your person. A large bore revolver will work well for self defense, its powerful enough for most large north american game, it can be used on small game. They can use just about any load, some can handle multiple callibers, ie. 38 special/.357 or .44 special/.44mag. Oh and no magazine to lose or damage. :D Opps, almost forgot my choice. I would go with a Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag, though any gun from one of the big manufacturers would do. My second choice would be a Ruger GP100.

[Tightwad]

l. A shot gun would be more versatile

This is more along the lines that I was thinking. A handgun or rifle
of any kind requires brass ammo (more correctly ...manufactured
ammo) where shotguns can be reloaded many ways.

While many have a favorite brand/type of gun my question is aimed
squarely at MAXIMUM versatility in all situations. This leads me to
lean towards the shotgun. The reason being is that a shotgun
can be shot by anyone who knows how to load it in a severe
SHTF situation. That plus a shotgun isn't a true miitary type offensive
weapon (but still a hell of a killing machine) that might escape being
taken due to it's hunting uses.

Your opinion please.....

[Toad_Sticker]

that really isn't all true.
If you are careful you can reload any cartridge with just a nail to punch out a primer. and rifle pistol primers can be reloaded (if you are careful) with strike anywhere match tips whereas shotgun primers can't.
ammo is much heavier to carry and the gun itself is bulky and in the way when you are trying to do other things.
I cut about a cord and a half of wood this weekend with a pistol on my hip. I couldn't even of carried a shotgun where I was without making 2 trips.
since this is a purely academic question we could argue back and forth the virtues of both.
TS

[Dan_Kane]

"... Sorry, mate but this thread is not as specific as mine if
you read my qualifier..."

Fair enough :-) Although the previous thread did meander around your kinda territory a bit...

You're really establishing some tough constraints, and I understand why. I have actually thought about this myself...and arrived at a different practical solution, which I'll get to in a bit...

Your rationale behind your constraints is sound, and wise in its prescience. In an all-out SHTF situation, new ammo would be tough to come by. Prices would rocket, availability would decline rapidly etc.

But I have to say that asking for *one* gun to cover your ass in all situations is an economic no-hoper. Even with plentiful supplies of ammo nowadays, we can debate until we're blue in the face about "which gun is the best all-rounder?" (to which I still say Mossberg 590 ;-) )...but there will always be additional constraints that screw up even that decision, like portability (handgun vs long gun), and as you highlight - ammo.

If the S has hit the F so badly as to bugger the ammo supply, what about regular black powder? What about lead to make ammo? What about cases? All of these things are subject, at some point, to economic depletion. There's no magical singular arms solution to get you out of all trouble no-matter-what...it's simply not economically possible.

So, my attitude shifted to one where I considered "what is the best SHTF arms strategy?", and what solution can I put in place *now* while I *do* have resources available? My constraint is that it must be minimalist and affordable.

I simply considered the two 'survival' aspects of firearms - hunting and defense (from 2 and 4 legged beasties). I also considered the likelihood that although the S can hit the F, it is unlikely to stick forever. Life will return to normal, but I guesstimated at expecting a 5-year hiatus until normal economic activity resumed.

It boiled down to a decision whereby modern high-power firearms would be reserved for defence, and primitive arms for regular utilitarian use. I also decided that it was critical to learn how to make gunpowder. Basic firearm/gunpowder tech is part of our 'dialtone' technology, and is not beyond any of us. It is also practical to stockpile blackpowder (safely!) in sufficient quantities to keep you going for a *long* time.

Cut to the chase...my minimal shopping list is this:

Black powder muzzleloader (game hunting)
Pump-action shotgun (security - the Moss 590 rides again!)

That's it. Obviously, I have acquired more than this over the years, but this is my minimum 'survival bag' collection. Affordable and practical.

I would add that (if you can afford it) a handgun and high-power (sniper/hunting) rifle would be wise additions for added security.

[Tightwad]

True, I can understand wanting a gun "at hand" with
a pistol but this is application specific use in your case.

That said, wouldn't a 12 gage "close at hand" be a better
grab and shoot weapon when a pistol might miss?

To me, ANY handgun is just to "iffy" for those that don't
shoot all the time and then for most of them also. In the
movies the good guy can hit the target everytime but this
isn't the case for the casual gun owner.

[Tightwad]

"I simply considered the two 'survival' aspects of firearms - hunting and defense (from 2 and 4 legged beasties). I also considered the likelihood that although the S can hit the F, it is unlikely to stick forever. Life will return to normal, but I guesstimated at expecting a 5-year hiatus until normal economic activity resumed.
*
It boiled down to a decision whereby modern high-power firearms would be reserved for defence, and primitive arms for regular utilitarian use. I also decided that it was critical to learn how to make gunpowder. Basic firearm/gunpowder tech is part of our 'dialtone' technology, and is not beyond any of us. It is also practical to stockpile blackpowder (safely!) in sufficient quantities to keep you going for a *long* time.
*
Cut to the chase...my minimal shopping list is this:
*
Black powder muzzleloader (game hunting)
Pump-action shotgun (security - the Moss 590 rides again!)
*
That's it. Obviously, I have acquired more than this over the years, but this is my minimum 'survival bag' collection. Affordable and practical. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, now you're on the same page as I am on this topic......
SUSTAINABLTY.

Way to many people think that "I armed and I'm set" which is
bunk. The minute trouble comes the troops will seek out and take
ALL of your guns that can be used as weapons. Black powder might
escape. That is why it's my thinking that a 12 gage black powder
shotgun might be a very good think the own. This gun served
for over a hundred years for our forefathers putting meat on the
table as well as protecting the home.

There are forces at work in the world now that may roll time back
a bit so it is only prudent to have some tools to make do.

This story documents what I'm talking about as already happening
in America. Were you aware and prepared?

http://www.unknownnews.org/0509160909gunsandgo.html

Do you agree that a shotgun will do?

[DM]

Now I know that many just won't be able to narrow it to one
gun but in this case try real hard to imagine that "perfect
all 'round piece" to get you through life. The one qualifier is
that this gun must be able to be used WITHOUT modern
shells or must be easy to reload shells for.The reason for
this is that in a SHTF situation new ammo will be a big
problem.

There's no way i'll live long enough to run out of "components" to NOT beable to have ammo to keep my "gun of choise" going!! As long as i can move, i can make ammo for my firearm!

DM

http://www.fototime.com/{D2E29790-B199-40DD-9660-C98C203AA18A}/picture.JPG

[Toad_Sticker]

True, I can understand wanting a gun "at hand" with
a pistol but this is application specific use in your case.

That said, wouldn't a 12 gage "close at hand" be a better
grab and shoot weapon when a pistol might miss?

To me, ANY handgun is just to "iffy" for those that don't
shoot all the time and then for most of them also. In the
movies the good guy can hit the target everytime but this
isn't the case for the casual gun owner.
well the original question was what would I need.
I am a good pistol shot so a pistol works very well for me.
Maybe not many people.
I do shoot alot with a handgun and have killed big game with one.
I also had a lot of fun hunting squirrels with my 1911 in 45ACP. shot em in the head.
when I was a kid I hunted rabbits with a shotgun like I was taught. When I was a teen I switched to a .22 rifle because shotgun was too easy .
I soon switched to a ruger single six .22 because a rifle was too easy also.
I have killed more critters with that gun than any other I own.
my choices are personal and will NOT work for most people.
TS

[Tightwad]

*There's no way i'll live long enough to run out of "components" to NOT beable to have ammo to keep my "gun of choise" going!! *As long as i can move, i can make ammo for my firearm!

*DM

http://www.fototime.com/{D2E29790-B199-40DD-9660-C98C203AA18A}/picture.JPG

Since I don't follow guns very closely please explain what that device
is in the unchambered barrel of your shotgun. New to me.......

[Dan_Kane]

I think it's one of those fangled drop-in .22 conversion thingies...literally shoot a .22 out of your shotgun.

Neat :-)

[Dan_Kane]

I'm surprised at how simple (http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/gunpowder/index.html) gunpowder is. It's harder to make *good* gunpowder, though...requires patience.

75:15:10 of salt peter, charcoal powder and sulfur powder respectively is the correct ratio

[Dan_Kane]

"...Were you aware and prepared?..."
I was aware of this as it happened, and I was disgusted, angry and appalled. It makes me sick to think of the belligerent, ignorant attitude of the "anti-gun" crowd, and their "couldn't happen in America" bullshit. That little fascist bastard NO police chief needs to be disappeared post haste.

"...Do you agree that a shotgun will do?..."
Nope. I don't have the kind of arsenal or manpower to survive such a confrontation. If I had been in NO at the time, I would have been on an advance guard at the perimeter of my property with a crappy pump-action shotgun, and spoken assertively to the cops about being 'well equipped' to survive. They might decide to leave me alone. If they don't, I either submit or die in the ensuing gunfight. The NO situation wasn't worth dying for. Give them some 'giveaway' guns, hide the good ones until needed.

However, in a SHTF situation, we need to organize as small, tight communities to coordinate our force against such mobs...united we stand etc.

But that's another (lengthy) discussion... ;-)

[gunslinger2006]

This is a great thread. I'll add my .02 on sustainability by suggesting for hunting that a traditional or primitive bow and arrows might be the way to go. Don't get me wrong, I love my flintlock, but when it comes down to it a bow for which you can make your own arrows would offer a good compromise for long term SHTF situations. Of course, there are also many other options with primitive weapon, such a spear or throwing stick. These all take practice of course, but they aren't as hard to master as some might think. You shouldn't forget trapping either, which might be the most effecient way to harvest smaller animals. In a long term SHTF situation I'd try to keep my modern guns and ammo help back for fighting, and trap and hunt to suppliment my already preped food supply. Thats the plan anyway. :D

[edward_4576]

Something in the last post brought something to mind. Actually several, here goes. What about a wrist rocket (or old fashioned sling shot). Always have ammo with one of those. Secondly how about a flare pistol, couldn't you shoot shotgun shells from one of those? And if not how about a sawed off shotgun? Also as far as powder goes, couldn't you just retain the basic components and if necessary make your own?

[DM]

Since I don't follow guns very closely please explain what that device is in the unchambered barrel of your shotgun. New to me.......

As was already said, it is a slide in "insert bbl." to convert a shot bbl. to different rifle cals... The one pictured is 22 Win. Mag., but i also have one chambered in 22lr for this gun.

They aren't just something that just goes "bang", these are precision inserts that shoot on par with a quality bolt action rifle.. Also, they "are" sighted in for the rifle sights, and come back to zero no matter how many times you put it in or take it out.

It allows me to have a rimfire for low noise in my shotgun, and still have the high powered rifle in the lower bbl. for big animials or long shots...

DM

[Tightwad]

So it may come down to "no gun at all" in order to
sustain weapons to hunt and defend with?

That would mean a complete collapse of all social order
would it not?

That said what about a hi powered Adult Air Gun?
They would be suitable for hunting small game or,in
a pinch, self defense. Ammo can be stored in thousand
round tins or made at home since I don't see a total
collapse of society in America.

I've seen programs on TV where the simplest of tools is
used to made flintlocks that are still used today as an
"everyday" gun. That to me means that not much gun
is needed (or some other low tech weapon) is all that
is required to make do for everyday needs.

That is why I lean toward black powder shotguns, airguns or
the simpler weapons first designed to hunt/defend with. Of
course this assumes that one has the knowledge to use these
tools.

The whole point is that there needs to be a discussion in
the gun community of how to get along without guns. This
would remove both the illusion of safety along with the false
bravado of gun ownership of some level of invincibility. The
why behind this is the fact that our lives today run on a gossamer
thin vale of cheap oil that will become evermore expensive to buy.

Do you agree that "no gun" or "low tech gun" may be a better
solution??

[Tightwad]

*As was already said, it is a slide in "insert bbl." to convert a shot bbl. to different rifle cals... *
*It allows me to have a rim fire for low noise in my shotgun, and still have the high powered rifle in the lower bbl. for big animals or long shots...

Thank you. This is very interesting device that REALLY makes a
shotgun LOTS more versatile as a "one gun" tool. ;D

[Toad_Sticker]

The major problem with your alternative weapons will be.
All the idiots that spend several thousand $ on guns and ammo but have no food or water storage.
The guns you are leaning toward are slow on the reload.
The best course of action would be to pick your caliber/s and stockpile those things.
Just picture yourself in the woods after TSHTF with your BP shotgun. You see a deer and shoot it. Kill it dead with one shot(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) you reload and walk up to dress the deer.
You are just finishing up when 2 armed men walk up to you and thank you for cleaning their deer.
Just something to think on.
I know even with an AK 2 vs 1 is a bad deal But I am just trying to make you think it through and hopefully not hang your future on an unrealistic choice.
TS

[edward_4576]

TS,
Your scenario about the hunt doesn't necessarily have to happen when TSHTF. My dad was deer hunting on our farm and our "neighbors" came up and at gun point took the deer from him. Of course this was denied and there was animosity between us after that. But it goes to prove that not all things are as they should be.

[Tightwad]

The major problem with your alternative weapons will be.
All the idiots that spend several thousand $ on guns and ammo but have no food or water storage.
The guns you are leaning toward are slow on the reload.

True,BUT.....only during the first days of the troubled times.

In a very short time all those with what I'll call "true guns" will
have their weapons taken or shot dead to get them. Thinking that
any goverment body will allow arms to remain in public hands is
pure folly. Our founding fathers used flintlocks as an everyday
tool which we don't have to do anymore. One can't let the
bravado of gunownership color the choice made to get by.

After the playing field levels one can get by with simple tools
or weapons as ,other than the military, that is all we will be allowed.
So your point about loosing a game kill to better armed men is
somewhat incorrect. My guess is we will all be in the same leaky
boat.

To understand my full meaning one must think outside the box
to plan for the next 20 years.

[gunslinger2006]

You make a good point, there tends to be an attitude amongst gun owners that since I am armed I'm not to be trifled with. That however is not a guarantee of safety. I would hate to think that I might lose my guns and would not give them up willingly, but if I do lose them I'm not going to curl up and die. Of course the time to prepare is now. One other thing, I don't think it is a safe assumption that the playing field will be level amongst everyone. In many places that are in a permanent/semi-permanent state of TSHTF (i.e. Somalia) weapons are readily available to those that have the means and access.

[Toad_Sticker]

If you think the .GOV can disarm people in a situation like this think again.
Look at how totally they screwed up N.O. they tried to disarm and then had people sniping at LEO's and others.
In a major tshtf situation the .gov will be too busy trying to hold the cities together to be able to enforce just about anything.
The military would be spread way to thin to try a systematic dissarmement.

Think real hard on it, will you sacrifice your security because you believe that the Gov will take care of you?
If you are trusting them to disarm everyone that is exactly the case.
My $.02 not really worth that much
TS

[Tightwad]

In a major tshtf situation the .gov will be too busy trying to hold the cities together to be able to enforce just about anything.
The military would be spread way to thin to try a systematic dissarmement.

Think real hard on it, will you sacrifice your security because you believe that the Gov will take care of you?
If you are trusting them to disarm everyone that is exactly the case.


No, I don't trust the gov't for much of anything except to screw up
daily. As to who and how many guns are on the street.....well.....
that would depend on just how far our society collapses. This is
one of the points that prompted my question......ownership of
SUSTAINABLE arms and what those arms might be.

Our military may not , in those times, be "our" military but that's
kinda left field thinking. However, units of the military , during a
social collapse, may start to act independently which could make life
very different for those close to them. This is one of the main
reasons for my selection of Black Powder Shotguns due the "tool"
nature of this gun. It is an often ignored gun by those who own
more modern guns but will still "git-r-done" for most personal
uses. Bows come in a close second for sustainability & low profile.

After reading many opinions on the web , along with opinions offered
here, I have formed my opinion that new BP shotguns are THE most
versatile one gun armory for families. If you disagree with me
please share your views at to why.

[Toad_Sticker]

I have aready explained the why.
It is foolish to bet your life and any loved ones lives on a gun that "might" make it under the radar and not be taken and still expect it to be useful to protect yourself.
Take all the opinions you want and I have stated mine so I guess I have said my piece and will shut up now.
TS

[Tightwad]

It is foolish to bet your life and any loved ones lives on a gun that "might" make it under the radar and not be taken and still expect it to be useful to protect yourself.

I do thank you for your honest opinion,mate. I, however, do NOT
concentrate my thinking on self defense because I , nor many others,
will EVER be as well armed as the military or the the bad guys. This
is an arms completion that I , nor many others , would never win. So
I choose not to play in it. Remember, that the false bravado of "I"m
well armed with lots new guns" will get you killed in times of social
collapse. The meek will truly inherit the earth

That said, my focus is on being able to hunt and fend off the odd
stupid home invader. This is what wins the BP shortgun my vote
for a 'family gun".......it's basic tool nature.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please........

[edward_4576]

One thing that I was thinking that in a SHTF scenario where the populace was evacuating a large area all the folks that had weapons would be "hunting" for food all along posted evacuation routes. If you were part of the evacuees the chances that LEO's would be confiscating weapons would be greater. I think one criteria for any weapon might be ease of concealment or ease of breaking the weapon down.

[Tightwad]

One thing that I was thinking that in a SHTF scenario where the populace was evacuating a large area all the folks that had weapons would be "hunting" for food all along posted evacuation routes. *If you were part of the evacuees the chances that LEO's would be confiscating weapons would be greater. *I think one criteria for any weapon might be ease of concealment or ease of breaking the weapon down.

Possibly, possibly. However, your thoughts are on the other end
of the spectrum from what I am asking. That being "home bound"
weapons.

In the scenario you speak of the very best weapon/tool you can carry
is a good stout folding knife . As long as you have a stout quality
folding knife all sorts of weapons can be made along with traps for
food. I carry a 4" 3 blade stockman & a lockback (w/4"blade) folders
where ever I go or have them VERY close at hand (in places where
knives are an issue). Since I'm very skilled with knives these should
at least give my family a chance to survive anything but an all out
assault. This is also why I chose a BP shotgun.

[DM]

*How come your concentrateing on only haveing "one" firearm?? *"If" you came here and took every gun out of the house and shop, you don't really think i would be left without more firearms and ammo, do you??

*I always keep some that could get stolen or ??, so i don't loose the ones that are my keepers...

*DM

[Tightwad]

*How come your concentrateing on only having "one" firearm?? *"If" you came here and took every gun out of the house and shop, you don't really think i would be left without more firearms and ammo, do you??

*I always keep some that could get stolen or ??, so i don't loose the ones that are my keepers...

*DM
Why just one? To challenge all who are gun owners or interested in
owning a gun as a tool to think outside & away from the concept of
"more".

More guns won't feed or protect you better. More guns
will be harder to supply with ammo. More guns will make you a
target in times of trouble. More guns leads to the false & deadly
chest pounding bravado of "come and get my guns". More guns
takes you VERY far away from the tool nature of a gun.

I also seek to point out to the gun owners that due to "more" guns
you may not know the best use of any one gun in a tight situation.
To the gun newbie I seek to counsel that one needs to learn guns
and their uses ,and shortfalls, BEFORE they consider what gun
to buy.....if any.

Gun "nuts" are like any other person of passion. They tend to be
blind to any failings of the object of their passion. Many families of
the past (and some yet today) only need one gun.

[Rick]

If I was limited to only one gun.........hang on a second, let me get my Kevlar underwear cinched up tight ........I'd go with an AR-15 with a Ceiner .22 LR insert.

Pretty much for the same reasons as GK was prone to espousing: the ammo is lightweight and available. 5.56mm is (marginally) big enough to hunt big game and humans. Even in semi-auto an AR can put a lot of bullets out in a hurry, if that's what you need to do. The .22 LR drop in adds greatly to the versatility of the weapon and .22 LR ammo is REALLY lightweight and available.

GunKid wasn't 'swavee and deboner' like the rest of us, but it wasn't a bad idea he was pushing.

Rick

[DM]

More guns won't feed or protect you better. More guns will be harder to supply with ammo. More guns will make you a *target in times of trouble. More guns leads to the false & deadly chest pounding bravado of "come and get my guns". More guns
takes you VERY far away from the tool nature of a gun.

*I think haveing "one" gun is a mistake! *First off, who says you have to have a pile of guns out and show them off?? *Who says they all have to be different cals.??

*I think haveing several guns "even of the same cal." hidden in different secure places is the better option.... *If i loose one or if breaks or for some reason i have to give it up, so be it! *BUT, that sure doesn't have to be the only gun i can get my hands on!!

*Don't worry, if the police come on a gun raid, they will take your BP shotgun too..... *Be smart, have several BP shotguns, and hide some of them where you can go get them when needed!!

More guns leads to the false & deadly chest pounding bravado
*Anyone who acts this way will get taken down no matter what kind of firearm they have!

*DM

[edward_4576]

Heinlein wrote a book called "Tunnel in the Sky" It's a good read. In one point of the book the main character is trying to decide what type of weapon he should take with him on his survival test. The conversation he had with his sister (who was in the military) does have striking similarities to the conversation here.

[Tightwad]

And what weapon did he choose and why?
*
Might shed some light on the conversation here.

At some point all humans are locked in an eternal
struggle to "survive" even in the best of times.
That said, the goal here is to identify , and quantify,
the most reasonable choice of "a" gun or weapon to
ensure that one can feed himself or his family while
also being able to defend the home from intruders
short of all out war.

Many who respond will display the sense of bravado
that comes with multiple guns never being able to
thinks outside the box long enough to focus on the
basics required to live day to day. If a person studies
history at all then they could glimpse those times when
people actually needed and used only one guns/weapon
as a tool to live. This thread isn't about down and dirty
movie style SHTF life. It's about how to make do when
times get hard and life changes away from the soft life
we have now in suburbia.

If you have a few garden tools you can grow food to eat
just as man has forever. To defend and hunt takes a
different tool. That is the focus of this thread.

[edward_4576]

He chose a Bowie knife. The idea as explained in the book went like this. Carrying a gun would give some folks a sense of superiority and instead of doing the smart thing they might instead do something stupid.

[Tightwad]

He chose a Bowie knife. *The idea as explained in the book went like this. *Carrying a gun would give some folks a sense of superiority and instead of doing the smart thing they might instead do something stupid.

My, my.....A bowie KNIFE. Now this is my kinda dude! ;D ;D

I've a long passion for knives so this is my blind spot. However,
you response says much in a few words. The best weapon/tool
may,in fact, NOT be a gun. :o

Who would have guessed? (I would) ;D

This to me means the best "tool kit" is a good stout knife & a BP
shotgun. Hmmmmm........that sounds an a lot like the Mountain
man's kit for daily living. Somethings just never go out of style.

[longshot]

for me the answer is a 12 gauge pump with interchangeable barrells for scatter shot and a rifled barrel for slugs. the answer to extending your ammo is to use alternate weapons when you can for hunting and even for defence. using alternate non firearm means will enable you to keep on the quiet when hunting and defending. using bows and traps can take 2 legged as well as four legged animals.

ls

[Tightwad]

for me the answer is a 12 gauge pump with interchangeable barrells for scatter shot and a rifled barrel for slugs.
ls

Can the shot sells be reloaded w/Black Powder? What to do about
new primers?

You & I agree on the 'type' of gun except I'd opt for double barrels
to avoid the machinery a pump has to make it work. Once the
reload question is adressed then better sustainablity long term
would swing me back to modern guns.

[longshot]

well tight wad, i wasn't thinking of BP i was thinking of reloading using modern powder and primers as i would intend to use alternate means to supliment the drain on my ammo for hunting and defence.

ls


BTW i am learning to make bows from scratch and to make atlatls as well as different types of traps not just the modern mechanical traps that i have now.

[gunslinger2006]

Yes, you can reload with black powder. The problem would be primers. I have heard that rifle/pistol can be remanufactured but I don't know about shotgun primers. They are different in construction. Plus you have to consider getting the raw materials you'll need to do it.

[Tightwad]

Thanks,mate. I kinda wondered about the primer cap for BP shotguns
also. That, to me, means that one must step back to the flintlock
shotguns which may be a bit to far but will still work if our society
goes totally to hell. I doubt that this will happen so , for now, it
looks like the cap fired BP shotgun is still in the running as a
"family" firearm.

[Tightwad]

Found this info on BP shotguns that seem to support
their use as a "family" gun. Please note that this info
is by a person who knows a LOT more about BP shotguns
than I do. :o

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/shotgun.html

[gunslinger2006]

I haven't found that flint locks are more difficult to use than percussion guns, though they do take some getting used to. Be prepared to spend some money on a good muzzleloader, well made traditional guns cost atleast as much as quality modern guns.

[Tightwad]

Where does one buy a Flintlock shotgun??

I've googled the net finding cap BP shotguns but no
flintlocks. I'm very interested in a flintlock double
barrel BP shotgun and I'm kinda stumped.

Help anyone??

(Please note that since I've had both knees replaced I'm strictly
a flatland shooter nowdays so I don't need a fancy BP shotgun)

[gunslinger2006]

Well you can try here: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(145c2u45ythlqg55b2ppsc3b))/Index.aspx

Here: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php

and here to start with:http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/index.php

I'm sure there are many other site on the internet on building or buying a muzzleloader. If you want a side by side flint be prepared to pay a lot of money for one. If it were me, I would go with whats called a trade gun, a single barrel rifle or more commonly a musket (smooth bore) These are plain jane guns that shouldn't cost near as much as a double barrel.

[Tightwad]

Thanks for the links. I did more searching and
found this maker who has updated the bores
with chrome to allow steel shot to be used.

While not a flintlock these guns are sustainable enough
to do the job in all situations that are not in a total
social collapsed world. They are also priced within reason.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=245&lang=en

[gunslinger2006]

Percussion caps are cheap enough and seem to last a long time, so stocking up on them wouldn't be a big deal

[Tpfkat]

I have a longhorn 8" (Sentinal) 9 shot 22 mag da revolver I put a 22lr chamber insert for one of the holes and put one colibri shell and 8 22 mags,then lined up the colibri to fire first,this will allow me to shoot squrils/birds with little noise and have 8 higher power rounds if needed.

I considered changing three holes but one should be fine,unless I run out of 22 mag,then I can convert all of the holes to 22lr (filed off 22 mag brass).

I'll play with if for awhile.

[edward_4576]

A couple of things I've been thinking. I was looking in the basspro and cabela's websites. Did you ever notice that you can't buy shotguns from there (maybe at the store but their not advertised). You can however buy black powder rifles and such. A couple of questions on those tools. Do you need to register them and are the ones I see on their web sites really worth buying? One last question. Some of you might know what a "candy cane" load is for a pump shot gun, alternated shot/slug loads so you alternate between the different types of shells. This scheme I've heard allows for maximum damage in a home invasion type scenario, would a shotgun be damaged by this type of load if you used the same barrel?

[Rick]

Hello

I considered changing three holes but one should be fine,unless I run out of 22 mag,then I can convert all of the holes to 22lr (filed off 22 mag brass).

How does this work? I'm interested in possibly converting a .22 mag to .22LR. I have a single-six on the way; it has a .22LR cyl and a .22 mag cylinder, but you never know......

Hi Edward,

The mountain men used to hunt grizzly bears with the .50 cal Hawkens. With a single-shot, with a little paractice, you can get up to 4 aimed shots per minute. You can buy those BP weapons in the mail w/o any ffl or registration involved (some state or local laws may be more stringent, don't know).

I don't have any experience with the Colt type 1860 revolvers, but I did own an 1858 Remington in .44 that worked quite well. After about 18 shots it need to be cleaned because it gets a little hard to turn. I gave it to my brother, so it's still around.

If I was going to buy a BP handgun, I'd look real hard at the Ruger (you can even buy an aftermarket cylinder that will allow you to shoot .45 LC cartridges), but the Remington is a fine weapon too.

Cabelas has a carbine built on the 1858 Remington.

edited to add:

Cabela's also has 10, 12, and 20 ga BP shotguns.

[jim]

Rick

Wher does one get that after market .45 Colt cylinder for the Ruger?

jim

[Tightwad]

Hi Edward,

The mountain men *used to hunt grizzly bears with the .50 *cal Hawkens. *With a single-shot, with a little practice, you can get up to 4 aimed shots per minute. *You can buy those BP weapons in the mail w/o any ffl or registration involved (some state or local laws may be more stringent, don't know).


Cabela's also has 10, 12, and 20 ga BP shotguns.

The BP DBL barrel shotguns that Cabela's sell are all made by...

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=245&lang=en

I lean towards these BP guns due to the chroming of the barrel
bores to allow the use of steel shot. It's true that any single
barrel muzzle loader would do as well in practiced hands.

Buying a BP gun could be easier than any other type of gun but
in my state one still has to have an FOI card for them(damn!).

As to the use of .22 for the "one gun" task. I'd say, no not really.
While a well proven easy to shoot caliber .22's are to small for
the core use I need to put a gun to. One can store large amounts
of ammo for 22.'s but it's still a brass cartridge gun and well outside
the scope of this thread if you read my qualifiers.

[Rick]

Whoops, I missed the "no modern Cartridge" qualifier. Belay my earlier post about the AR with a .22LR Ceiner drop-in.

One gun, hmmm, only one gun, maybe a Kodiak double rifle in .54 caliber. I'm thinking a person could shoot bird-shot out of it in a pinch, but the rifling would screw up the pattern.

Jim, here is a link to the Ruger Old Army drop-ins:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=9488

[DM]

Percussion caps are cheap enough and seem to last a long time, so stocking up on them wouldn't be a big deal

Yes you can stock up on percussion caps, just like you can stock up on primers... and they take up very little room.. That's why stocking up a little, and reloading your own is such a HUGE advantage over BP that it's the way to go...

Buy 2 or 3 of the same kind firearm you prefer, all useing the same ammo. Then stock up on ammo and store the guns + some ammo in different places "just in case"... You will then always have a firearm available, if and when you need it even if one fails, or it's taken from you....

DM

[Tightwad]

DM, not to discount the merit of your opinion one bit
but in my scenairo shell casings & brass may be hard
or impossible to get new to replace those that can't
be reloaded.

Then there is the possibility that one may be in a place where
only the barest of goods is available. My goal was to find a gun
that can be used with the barest minimum of manufactured
component's. All these point lead one to a Black Powder gun that
our forefathers used for centuries with little in the way of any
manufactured items to make them work beyond the gun itself.

All that said if you can see it from my point you will understand
then that many, many gun owners will have expensive clubs
to use when , or if, the ammo runs out. THAT is why I will not
consider any modern ammo feed guns. Black Powder can be
made at home which gives it the edge.

[DM]

DM, not to discount the merit of your opinion one bit but in my scenairo shell casings & brass may be hard
or impossible to get new to replace those that can't
be reloaded.

Then there is the possibility that one may be in a place where only the barest of goods is available. My goal was to find a gun that can be used with the barest minimum of manufactured component's. All these point lead one to a Black Powder gun that our forefathers used for centuries with little in the way of any manufactured items to make them work beyond the gun itself.

All that said if you can see it from my point you will understand then that many, many gun owners will have expensive clubs to use when , or if, the ammo runs out. THAT is why I will not consider any modern ammo feed guns. Black Powder can be made at home which gives it the edge.

A brass case can easily be loaded more than 20 times provided you keep the pressures below MAX. Lets see, i have a couple hundred rounds of ammo and i know i can load every one of them more than 20 times.... How long will it take to use them up?? AND, i would have more than 200 rounds put away.... Just how many rounds do you think you will need?? 4,000 rounds is more than a life time of hunting for food and then some...

Bullets... I can cast my own, i've already been doing it since the 70's... Won't you need to have bullets or shot for your BP gun?? I have about 2,000 pounds of clean lead here now and there's 7,000 grains in a pound... You do the math...

Powder, i can shoot black powder in my centerfire gun too.... So, i CAN make that too if needed, but i won't have to... I've got some of that put away too....

Primers... You can store thousands of them in such a small place it's a no brainer....

BTW, i will NEVER have to, but i CAN switch my firearm to BP if i wanted too, it's just not that hard....

Sooo, i'm not saying i have the only way... but i am saying i feel it's a better choise than yours...

Anyone can make a "shootable" BP shotgun out of scrap pipe in less than an hour... Untill i need one, i'm sticking with my modern gun as i'm absolutely sure it's all i'll ever need....

DM

[Tightwad]

Sooo, i'm not saying i have the only way... *but i am saying i feel it's a better choise than yours...

*Anyone can make a "shootable" BP shotgun out of scrap pipe in less than an hour... *Untill i need one, i'm sticking with my modern gun as i'm absolutely sure it's all i'll ever need....

*DM

Not to debate your personal position but you've based your response
on your personal stores and equipment which like may or may not
be widely available to others. The point here is a "family" gun
that is easy to shoot FOR ANYONE, easy to sustain with powder or
ball.

You can sustain your personal position but what about others who
may not have the resources you've saved up?? That is the core point
of this thread to cause all gun owners to think in terms of sustainable
long term gun use that doesn't attract to much attention from the
authorities or the military. Your collection of guns & supplies will be
a magnet to those looking for guns to take from the public. Will
that happen? I sure hope not. It CAN happen is all.

Muzzle loading Black powder guns might just be low enough in the
food chain to allow the owners to keep them during hard times.

All that said, I don't believe your choices are wrong for you at all,
The are just not all that sustainable to someone who hasn't spent
the time you have to collect the supplies.

[jim]

So TW, how much do these doubles cost?jim

[Tightwad]

Jim, Cabela's sells the BP shotguns that I prefer
and I'm sure that one can buy they elsewhere.

Cabala's price range for 12ga. is $500>$750 ish
so that's the benchmark to me for now. When I
get around to buying one,if I can find a place to shoot,
I'll shop hard for price then.

[jim]

I think I'll just get a kit and put together a ML .50-.52 cal flintlock. To me 500-750 is way too much to pay for a caplock. No offense to your choices.

jim

[longshot]

traditionally the tool/weapon of choice on the farm/homestead has been the shotgun. *versatile, powerfull, and capable. *weither BP or smokeless is not the question IMO *the prompt was if only one gun, which one for defence and every day. *i dont need an everyday carry so the shotty is my choice


ls

[HPshooter]

Instead of #11 caps for your BP, you and get by with the little plactic caps they sell in both strips and rings for kids toys. You can buy several hundred for pennies. However when the hammer comes down it may cut the plastic against the nipple and leave a plastic disk in the hole when you remove the outter part of the plastic cap. However, if you use a nipple pick between shots anyhow, this won't be a problem.

I think a regular cap throws more fire, but every plastic cap I tried worked, and that was with a side-hammer gun, not an in-line. ::)

[huntershaven]

I disagree on the proposed "one gun for everything" unless one is talking about living with pre-Civil War technology on the entire planet. Even then, I wouldn't want to handicap myself with a slow to load, potentially unreliable, single shot weapon when there are more modern tools to select from.

There is a reason why there is no such thing as a do it all tool in any segment of our culture. Specialization occurred for a reason.