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dale00
03-21-2013, 02:42 PM
ok ive been trying to get to my off grid house for some time now but have had set backs,new baby on the way.looked on the internet cant find any laws in nh about having running water in the house other than if i do i will need a full septic.dont have the money for that now but can put in a gravity well,will not have any water lines running into the house till next yr when i have the money to put in a septic now i have a composting toilet and will recycle the gray water somehow.dont want the call anyone cause it may throw a red flag.so dont know if anyone nows what the laws are on this.thanks

billygoatgruff
03-21-2013, 03:51 PM
Do two searches with the following words, respectively:

1: new hampshire residential wastewater regulations

2: new hampshire drinking water regulations

As for not calling anyone, uh, didn't you just broadcast to the world? lol

Good luck, and congratulations on the baby.

John

Txanne
03-21-2013, 10:46 PM
ok ive been trying to get to my off grid house for some time now but have had set backs,new baby on the way.looked on the internet cant find any laws in nh about having running water in the house other than if i do i will need a full septic.dont have the money for that now but can put in a gravity well,will not have any water lines running into the house till next yr when i have the money to put in a septic now i have a composting toilet and will recycle the gray water somehow.dont want the call anyone cause it may throw a red flag.so dont know if anyone nows what the laws are on this.thanks

(((Shhhh a couple of buried 55 gallon drums with some lateral line and a little gravel make a fine temp or even permanant septic)

Dont you hate having to ans to the gooberment on your own property---grrrrrrrrrr!

Good luck on the new addition---and good luck to its parents in your quest.

HuntingHawk
03-21-2013, 11:12 PM
Brown water is from a toilet & that is what you need a septic tank for. But with your composting toilet you shouldn't need one. Grey water from sinks, shower, etc can go directly to a drain field like a garden. Drain field just needs to be lower then your frost line.

Txanne
03-22-2013, 01:05 PM
Brown water is from a toilet & that is what you need a septic tank for. But with your composting toilet you shouldn't need one. Grey water from sinks, shower, etc can go directly to a drain field like a garden. Drain field just needs to be lower then your frost line.

Right!!!
Potty water will affect ground water---but the soil will quickly purify gray water--well its reconized here.

HuntingHawk
03-22-2013, 03:43 PM
When most property laws laws are passed alot of times things are grandfathered in. Something you might want to look at. And you want to specifically look at what your county laws are.

dale00
03-24-2013, 01:38 PM
thank you guys for the congrads also on the gray water if i have water in the house i have to have a full septic.or a approved gray water recycle setup but no one will tell me what that is so?was going to just put the gray water into tanks and have them pumped but was told no go would like to say the hell with them and do it but my luck will get caught so.

randallhilton
03-24-2013, 02:54 PM
Protecting health is my first priority. Laws were put into place because of folks who disregarded health.

If I'm not using a public water supply and
If I'm able to dispose of the grey water without contaminating my or someone else's water supply and
If my grey water disposal doesn't create a health hazard for myself or others
then I'm very likely to have my own on site sewage treatment while saving up for an " approved" system.

The way I figure it, a county inspector isn't going to visit unless someone complains. If no one complains then all is good and that money will just be part of the emergency fund.

If someone stirs the septic tank so to speak then step one by the inspector person is to put me on notice that I need to set up a proper system within xx number of days. Then I'll get busy and do what I have to do. In the mean time, no harm no foul.

Your results may vary.

MissouriFree
03-24-2013, 03:17 PM
Be carefully on the grey water issue. In many places grey is required to go thru the septic also. In a past time I was working on east Coast and that was case. Many ignored it but that was code .

billygoatgruff
03-24-2013, 05:03 PM
Two items to add...

dale, my quick scan of the rules on the page you will find with the wastewater search seemed to say to me that New Hampshire does not recognize gray water. It is black water. There are states that do that - Oklahoma was one that did not recognize gray water when I worked for .gov. I have had several uncomfortable moments as I stood by the county guy and was asked about gray water reuse / disposal. Both the county guy and I knew the literature but we were bound by our oath to the laws of the state.

I was surprised at the paragraphs on privies and port-a-potties in the NH regs as that I haven't encountered.

HuntingHawk, there is no such thing as grandfathering. Period.

There are states who conform more closely with the ex-post facto portion of the constitution tho. The fed conforms also to a certain extent. In essence that portion says that a law passed today cannot make something that was acceptable yesterday illegal. Health and safety rules somehow got a bye from that restriction, and wastewater can contain cholera germs (among others) so...

Maybe it is just a semantics thing but semantics can lead to assumptions that are "not good." That is my experience anyway, and your mileage may vary.

John

Txanne
03-24-2013, 06:05 PM
You know what---If you keep your mouth shut???????

I wouldnt take my health or anyone elses and put them in danger----But gray water is bath water/dish water clothes washing water.

Have you ck'd out the drugs and other contaminates in our city drinking water?
It'll gag ya.

I'd claim ignorance till hell froze over----doesn't any patriot push back anymore???

Sometimes you can claim it as a hunting cabin--vacation spot---works here.

HuntingHawk
03-24-2013, 08:37 PM
I guess an explanation of grandfathered in means needs to be explained.

When laws are changed doesn't mean you have to run out & do upgrades to meet the new standards. Same goes for rezoning. When my county changed the law requiring homes to have a minimum of a 200amp main breaker there was nothing requiring those with smaller to have to upgrade, they were grandfathered in.
I don't recall the specifics, but there was a change in my county increasing size of septic tank & amount of drain field based on the square feet of the home. That was for all new homes & everyone else was grandfathered in.

dale00
03-25-2013, 11:00 AM
so if i just put in like a set up to use the gray water on my fruit tress insteed of the garden(read that is bad?)and not tell anyone,what would be the worst that could happen?the house is way out there so dont think i will have any neighbors complaining,but have a 13 yr old son and a new one on the way dont want to have someone cone and take my kids cause i dont have a "up to code septic"Thanks to all you guys for the info want to make it happen just only have the cash for the well.

ScrubbieLady
03-25-2013, 11:55 AM
Call a septic service in the area and tell them you are "considering" buying some property in the area and want to know what the requirements are. The ones I have talked with (the guy that actually does the service) were honest with both the legal requirements and what would work.

Here, septic tanks were grandfathered in when they changed the laws. If your septic tank fails or if you put up a new residence and need one, you are required to put in a sewage treatment system. Much more expensive, requires electricity, three underground tanks and sprinklers for the grey water.

The guy told me as far as taking care of waste water, the septic tank will work just fine with only black water (toilet) going into it which is what they were originally designed for.

Lots of people have straight drain hoses that go from the washing machine to the garden or a flower bed. If I was washing diapers, I would want the washing machine water to go into the septic tank.

MissouriFree
03-25-2013, 12:13 PM
Lots of people have straight drain hoses that go from the washing machine to the garden or a flower bed. If I was washing diapers, I would want the washing machine water to go into the septic tank.

Like I said a lot of people did that despite code in my old east cost state( me included).

When I sold the house the requird home inspecter didn't say a thing. the big reason for not running grey water thru a septic system is that the phospoates any of the cleaners ( laudry, dish soap, etc ) kill the good bacteria that make a septic system work so well.

Txanne
03-25-2013, 01:05 PM
Call a septic service in the area and tell them you are "considering" buying some property in the area and want to know what the requirements are. The ones I have talked with (the guy that actually does the service) were honest with both the legal requirements and what would work.

Here, septic tanks were grandfathered in when they changed the laws. If your septic tank fails or if you put up a new residence and need one, you are required to put in a sewage treatment system. Much more expensive, requires electricity, three underground tanks and sprinklers for the grey water.

The guy told me as far as taking care of waste water, the septic tank will work just fine with only black water (toilet) going into it which is what they were originally designed for.

Lots of people have straight drain hoses that go from the washing machine to the garden or a flower bed. If I was washing diapers, I would want the washing machine water to go into the septic tank.


Many septic systems here ARE grandfathered in--BUT if you seek a new loan to purchase or want to build/or place a MH ----YOU maybe required to put in the new areation system--upwards of $10,000----the problem in this swampy country is the water table can be at 4---7 ft below surface----so septic systems may interfere with wells---makes sense to be aware of it----280ft to 400 ft of lateral line can be required---depending on number of folks in the family-IE:number of baths/bedrooms.

And too--each county may have its own rules and reggies----no wonder citizens can be confused. In side the city limits can present a nightmare.

Catalpa
03-25-2013, 10:25 PM
Go online and search for the website for the health department for your county/district. That website should have links where you can read the well and septic code. Once you're aware of what the requirements are, you can make informed decisions about how much you will comply.

Here's how it is in Michigan:
All wastewater from the building is considered sewage. There is ecoli and other pathogens in the waste from the sinks and washer, so it has to go through the septic system.
The septic system must be installed under permit and inspected.
Houses must have hot and cold running water for occupancy permits.

With that said, the regs are enforced more energetically in some areas than in others.
Some rural areas are much more relaxed.

IF you are sufficiently off the road and away from neighbors, discrete disposal of the gray water shouldn't be a problem. Make sure you disperse it well in perforated pipe set in gravel, and be darn sure you've got the pipes at least 12" above your seasonal high water table. No sense in contaminating the environment, and the soils can't clean the pathogens out of the wastewater if they're under water.

Also think about your convictions - we have a lot of Amish here that have no indoor plumbing and the state sort of just leaves them alone. If approached, you needn't claim Amish, but you may wish to have answers ready concerning a simple, off-grid lifestyle conviction and practice.

Just be sensible and smart - know what the requirements are, what the risks are for not meeting the requirements, and when you don't want to comply, don't let the neighbors know.

While it would be wonderful if the state didn't interfere with out private lives on our own private property, there are some health concerns that must be addressed and standards to meet to avoid contaminating our water supply and poisoning each other.

Of course the state being the state, they've gone crazy with regs and fines and stupidity.

dale00
03-30-2013, 11:28 PM
thank you all for the help,baby came early so may have to wait alittle longer,been at the hospital looking at things anyone know where i may be able to find which gray water recycle set up would be legal?been searching and cant find anything on nh,found how to build them but no laws.thanks again guys for the help really want to make this happen but the other half thinks we should at least know what the laws are on it,i say to hell with them but want to make her happy

Txanne
03-30-2013, 11:54 PM
thank you all for the help,baby came early so may have to wait alittle longer,been at the hospital looking at things anyone know where i may be able to find which gray water recycle set up would be legal?been searching and cant find anything on nh,found how to build them but no laws.thanks again guys for the help really want to make this happen but the other half thinks we should at least know what the laws are on it,i say to hell with them but want to make her happy

Congradulations on the bundle of JOY---what did you have? Boy/Girl?How big?What did you name her/him?

Ingiuring minds want to know and nosey ones like me--LOL.

annie

Tim Horton
03-31-2013, 12:53 AM
Dale......
There are way/systems to reclaim grey water and recycle it for brown water (toilet flushing) use.

However that takes planning in the installation of the drainage and pressure water systems to accommodate using it. And a certain amount of monitoring of the condition of the grey water containment system.....

It can be done, but takes planning and maintenance.

Good luck

dale00
03-31-2013, 07:14 AM
we had a girl 5 lbs 4oz she was 6 wks early thanks

billygoatgruff
03-31-2013, 08:34 PM
Congratulations!!! A little girl to wrap dad around her little fingers... lol Only had boys but they did a bit of wrapping also but different.

She will probably be in the NICU for a few weeks till all the organs develop enough to stand up to the real world challenges. Don't worry too much, just takes some time and growing. And then before you know it that growing will have you giving her away in a church someday. The time flies by so enjoy every minute of it is my advice. One angry minute loses 60 seconds of wonder and humor (yeah, I was that kind of dad. lol)

From NH regs:

http://www.dhhs.nh.gov/dphs/cdcs/hom/documents/hom-septic.pdf (http://www.dhhs.nh.gov/dphs/cdcs/hom/documents/hom-septic.pdf)


NH DHHS, Division of Public Health Services September 2011
Septic Systems Health Officers Manual Page 1 of 9
Source: NH Department of Environmental Services

THE SEPTIC SYSTEM:


Household sewage is a combination of wastewater from several sources, including sinks, toilets, showers, washing machines, garbage grinders and dishwashers. Depending on the source, sewage is divided into two categories, gray water and black water.

Gray water on average makes up 60% of household wastes. It includes sink(s), washing machine and shower waste. Gray water is high in biological oxygen demand (BOD), and requires high amounts of oxygen in order to start the decomposition process. This is very difficult to obtain when in the ground, although there is a small amount of air transfer from the soil. Gray water tends to stay anaerobic (without oxygen) longer than black water.

Black water is toilet waste and on average comprises approximately 40% of household sewage.

The subsurface waste disposal system (septic system) settles solids and prepares household wastes for disposal into the ground. The system consists of two parts: a septic tank, and a disposal area (leaching system), which disposes wastes in the ground. The sewage generally flows by gravity, first into the septic tank where the larger particles are removed and some decomposition takes place, and then, into the leaching system where it soaks into the ground.

The function of the septic tank is to condition the sewage so that it can percolate into the ground without clogging the soil.

The solids and the liquids in the tank are partially decomposed by bacteria and other natural processes. These bacteria are anaerobic, thriving in the absence of free oxygen. This decomposition of sewage under anaerobic conditions is termed “septic,” hence the name of the system (and the cause of the odor).

A mound, or raised system is a disposal area built up with clean fill material in order to achieve proper height above seasonal high ground water.

That seems to say that NH does not differentiate between black and gray water. Both are supposed to go to the septic tank.

Good luck with it all, and do enjoy that little person that has been given to you, K?

John

Plowpoint
03-31-2013, 08:34 PM
I have had friends that ran into the same problem as you, and that is, they needed a septic system and yet had very little money. I suggested they do what was done for years here in Maine, and that was just go with a one pipe system.

All they had to do was buy the septic tank, a load of septic tank rock (screened rock 1/1-2" minus) and some perforated and non-perforated plastic pipe. With a rented mini-excavator, we dug a trench from the house to where the septic tank was placed, running the gray and black water to the tank with solid pipe, then ran the perforated pipe down hill in a ditch that was back filled with the septic stone for drainage.

It has been done for years here in Maine, and is still in use by many homes even though it is not legal for new home construction. It really is the same as a leach field, is not going to be a problem to yourself or neighbors down the road since it is buried and leaches into the ground just as approved leach field designs are, and is a lot less money. My friends were even able to get financing on their home after it was built, and the town is none the wiser. Everyone just assumes it was done in the designed leach field way.

Back in 1994 when I put in my legitimate leach field system, the cost was $1500. Today it would cost me $7,000 to do the same thing. The prices are just stupidly-high and it kind of angers me that regulation is pushing the cost of permitting to the point where people like many of us...people who want to build our own homes...just cannot afford too.

offgridbob
04-01-2013, 12:58 AM
I go by Gods law, He gave me water to drink, how I get it to the cabin is my business. How I take care of the grey water on my land is my business and the type of toilet I use is my business. Permits for anything is just a way for government to suck you dry.

Plowpoint
04-01-2013, 06:00 AM
I can see why they have the leach field designs that they do, and why they must be engineered based on soil type and system load. Obviously placing a leach field in swampy ground from a home with ten people in it is going to be wrought with problems. Sometimes regulation is for our own benefit as just explained in that example, but at the same time, if a person lives on a steep slope and is pushing their sewer water into someones well area, that is a problem too.

But that said, I noticed a big trend in exotic systems lately, with pumps, big surface areas and lots of piping. There is not a lot of motivation to have the systems be as minimal as possible and still get by. That is my beef.

My system was inspected and approved, but barely. I used 3/4 crushed rock because I could get it for free at the time, and yet the inspector thought it was a little small even though the plan called for 3/4 - 1-1/2 inch rock. Granted it was crushed and not screen rock, which he also had an issue with. Ultimately he did put his stamp of approval on it, but he should have; in 19 years I have never had a problem.

But I shouldn't. The soil here is gravely loam to a depth of 50 inches, on a 6% slope with a minimum lot size of 2 acres. Even with the one pipe system I suggested on a previous post, it would be adequate, and is adequate for many homes around here.

dale00
04-15-2013, 07:24 AM
SO IVE LOOKED AROUND AND DONE SOME THINKING FOUND SOME 330 GAL WATER TANKS,I CAN BUY THEM CHEAP,GOING TO USE TWO FOR MY WATER STORAGE AND ONE TO CATCH THE GRAY WATER.I THINK TWO WILL WORK FOR WATER STORAGE?DONT PLAN ON USING IT FOR DRINKIN JUST WASHING AND COOKING.AND THE OTHER FOR GRAY WATER.IF THE WATER GOES INTO A STORAGE TANK AND NOT ON THE GROUND ITS LIKE A CAMPER RIGHT?I CAN GET SOMEONE TO COME AND PUMP IT OUT LIKE A CAMPER,JUST THRROWING IDEAS OUT THERE WANT TO GET THERE BEFORE PLANTING SEASON.THANKS

billygoatgruff
04-24-2013, 12:52 AM
SO IVE LOOKED AROUND AND DONE SOME THINKING FOUND SOME 330 GAL WATER TANKS,I CAN BUY THEM CHEAP,GOING TO USE TWO FOR MY WATER STORAGE AND ONE TO CATCH THE GRAY WATER.I THINK TWO WILL WORK FOR WATER STORAGE?DONT PLAN ON USING IT FOR DRINKIN JUST WASHING AND COOKING.AND THE OTHER FOR GRAY WATER.IF THE WATER GOES INTO A STORAGE TANK AND NOT ON THE GROUND ITS LIKE A CAMPER RIGHT?I CAN GET SOMEONE TO COME AND PUMP IT OUT LIKE A CAMPER,JUST THRROWING IDEAS OUT THERE WANT TO GET THERE BEFORE PLANTING SEASON.THANKS

Dale,

The link in my former post to NH regs has a couple paragraphs about privies and port-a-potties. The way my experience with .gov says that should be read is that for temporary conditions, take care of the black water using those technologies.

Since the conditions allowing privies or port-a-potties are very primitive, there shouldn't be much gray water.

Using an RV with its sewage tanks and a water tank should work also. Operative word there is should. There is verbage about septage dumping in the regs also, IIRC. There may be a fee for pumping the wastes to a wastewater treatment system (in essence, to pay for the chemicals and such that are used in treating the wastes.)

Hope that helps. And, gotta ask... isn't some of the water used for cooking gonna end up in your tummy? :)

John

dale00
05-05-2013, 11:09 AM
JOHN THANKS FOR THE HELP AND LINKS,CALLED THE LADY AT DES AND WAS TOLD YOU CANT HAVE A GRAY WATER RECYCLE SET UP EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS YOU CAN HAVE AN APPROVED GRAY WATER RECYLE SET UP BUT THEY TOLD ME NOT ALLOWED SO I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO,DONT HAVE THE CASH TILL NEXT YR FOR THE FULL SEPTIC SO WE MAY HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER YR.THANKS AGAIN,DALE

doc
05-15-2013, 11:30 PM
>> The prices are just stupidly-high and it kind of angers me that regulation is pushing the cost of permitting to the point where people like many of us...people who want to build our own homes...just cannot afford too. <<

If you were to draw a simple schematic of an expensive septic system and that of an old outhouse/pit latrine, they would be identical. The waste products both wind up in the same place. The only difference is in the expense of walls and pipes vs simple diffusion.

The health effects are identical in both systems: pathogens are rapidly diluted by the inverse square law as they leach out into the soil. Just don't make surface water your source of drinking water and you're safe.

It's the lobbyists for the septic industry that gives us the unnecessary, expensive requirements of regulations, not the scientific evidence.