Jeff Cooper has passed away.

[jim]

http://www.frfrogspad.com/cooper.htm

jim

[Toad_Sticker]

RIP
Brother
TS

[fredusa]

Thanks, jim---heard it on the radio---one of the greats, in the same category, to me, as Skeeter Skelton, and that ilk. He'll be missed both by us old timers and people who've not yet come to the sport!

[jim]

I actually got to meet Skeeter back in the late 70's at an NRA show in San Antonio. Great guy. Skeeter is to blame for me liking big-bore revolvers so much.

jim

[Win-12]

I'm sorry for his family and friends.

Maybe now that he's gone someone can finally update the antiquated, so called, "Modern Technique of the Pistol". :)

[jim]

I've little doubt that it will be "updated" enough so that it is no longer effective, just like they did with IPSC. Gadgets and Gimicks!

jim

[Win-12]

For anyone interested there is a good article that explains why the "Weaver stance" is such a failure in the real world.

"The Anatomy of Fear and How it Relates To Survival Skills Training" By- Darren Laur- Integrated Street Combatives

www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html

[jim]

The Weaver stance is not a failure in the real world, except where individuals with little training and/or ability, fail to handle things properly. I and people that I know, have successfully used the Weaver stance. It works if one has proper training and presence of mind. If one has little of either, then one is of little use in a lethal confrontation. That being the case, that person should seek employment in a more sedate environment.

I read the article in it's entirity, and found it most interesting. Most of what he said is true, but almost anyone can train themselves to react properly and ignore or use natural or instinctive responses for their advantage.

Use the Walter Mitty approach and train yourself mentally on what and how you'd handle a wide variety of situations. Picture yourself winning in all variations of a situation you can imagine.

Use adrenalin to kick yourself into "hyper-awareness" and process a ton more data than you normally would.

Don't involve yourself in liniar fights as the subjects mentioned at the beginning of the article did. Immediately turn it to a circular or turning fight. Dominate the situation and control it, and refuse the fight offered for one that you can win.

Keep one part of your mind cold as ice and do as you are trained, not what your instincts tell you to do.

Rely heavily on muscle-memory patterns.

Finally, while it does work well indeed, I don't suggest using self-induced psychosis to bring on a combat mindset. For the most part, one does not have to be that lethal, and there are all sorts of reasons not to live in civilized society with that mindset. Picture the Viking "Berserkers, and you'll know what I mean.

jim

[Win-12]

Like the article says "the majority of officers involved in the study were Weaver practitioners".

The majority of the positive responces, were not using the Weaver stance.

I'm not saying the weaver stance is not usefull at times, but it fails more often then not.

None of the major hangun competitions have been won (recently) with the use of the weaver stance. Its slower to get into then some of the other more natural stances.

Slow = Dead in the Real world.

[jim]

Again, no offense intended.

"Like the article says "the majority of officers involved in the study were Weaver practitioners".

This doesn't mean they knew what they were doing, or were properly trained.


"I'm not saying the weaver stance is not usefull at times, but it fails more often then not. "

Again, proper training.

"None of the major hangun competitions have been won (recently) with the use of the weaver stance. Its slower to get into then some of the other more natural stances."

Again, Gamesters. Competation ain't real life shooting. Lots of those gamesters can beat the likes of Chuck Taylor at competition, but they'd be four kinds of dead going against him or others I know that couldn't win a match under any circumstances. Competition bears no relation to real life in this situation.

"Slow = Dead in the Real world"

Sometimes, but often as not speed isn't that big an issue. One can't miss fast enough to win. First shots that hit win about 80% of the time. Accuracy, power, then speed dead last. No pun intended.

Weaver and a lot of other systems work. If it works for you, then that's good enough, and what any system is for anyway. I don't know anything about these "Natural" systems, but they may well work wonders. My initial training was the old FBI system of a crouch with the off hand hanging down in front. It works and I used to score around 98% on the old PPC courses. For me Weaver works better, and is now a natural stance.

jim

[Win-12]

Jim, I can understand your thinking that training may be the reason for all the Weaver failures in the study.

What I see is the Weaver technique has failed because it is to complicated and therefore can't be taught in the standard amount of time people are trained. The old FBI stance was the same. There is nothing wrong with using either technique if you have the time to invest, most people don't.

The Weaver stance requires fine motor skills- something the average person won't have control of under stress. Isosceles uses gross motor skills which we all have under stress. We can see from the study the average person, given the average amount of training reverts to Isosceles under stress. To me it would only make sense to concentrate on techniques you know the average trained person will revert to.
If you have the extended amount of time to train then use whatever you like.
For me competition has taught me some very valuable skills. I have experienced in competition, many of the perception issues people normally have during deadly encounters- auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, slow motion time, etc.. By participating in these "games" I have learned how to perform while experiencing many of these problems. I would not have been able to learn this without competition.

[Toad_Sticker]

interesting discussion.............
I shoot Weaver and have for years it is ingrained in me I do it without thinking.
My late uncle a career LEO learned the "cup and saucer" shooting stance and had a very tough time unlearning it when its shortcomings were realized and it fell out of favor.
I think most of the Leo's in the test using weaver were probably trained using it but how often does the average LEO train with their weapon.
Without training learned techniques are only academic, and the body with only react with what seems natural.
I have to admit ISO seems more natural to people who are learning and it may be more/better than weaver but my body is trained the way it is and any changes would only make me less efficient at this stage of life.
just my $.02
TS

[jim]

I my zeal to support the Weaver stance I failed to mention that under 20 yards, I do tend to shoot one handed, and twist to the desired direction if I can keep my feet planted solidly. I'm a little slower and less steady with my weak hand, and would support that more quickly than my strong hand.

All in all, do what works for you, and train, train, train. Even dry-firing works wonders if executed properly. Usually 200 rounds fired a month, and at least five careful trigger squeezes a day, are required to maintain pistol proffeciency.

jim