Question on Surplus 4831 powder.

[cmdan]

Hi,
I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder and one type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets calls for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, just FYI.

[DM]

*Old surplus 4831 "IS" H-4831 as Hodgon bought up surplus 4831 and sold it as H-4831. The H-4831 of today is the same, BUT old load data is many times on the HOT side, and i'd check it against a current source before using it.

*You can use the 165 grain data for 168's BUT, start out "one grain lower" than you use for the 165's and work up...

*You should ALWAYS do that anyway, when switching brands of bullets of the same weight or weighing in as close as your wanting to switch do.

*DM

[cmdan]

Thanks DM, I read somewhere that some of the surplus 4831 was dupont, at least that was the thought of the writer. My data card says to use dupont IMR 4350 for 150-165, Hodgdon 4831 for 180-200. Why the different powder, I don't know. On the site I posted, they say 165-168 grain bullets use 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831. I'll try my 168 bullets at 70 and see how they shoot. What is an indication that I'll need to start moving up on the powder? I assume I should be able to look at the pattern and use that?

[DM]

Thanks DM, I read somewhere that some of the surplus 4831 was dupont, at least that was the thought of the writer. My data card says to use dupont IMR 4350 for 150-165, Hodgdon 4831 for 180-200. Why the different powder, I don't know. On the site I posted, they say 165-168 grain bullets use 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831. I'll try my 168 bullets at 70 and see how they shoot. What is an indication that I'll need to start moving up on the powder? I assume I should be able to look at the pattern and use that?

IMR 4350 is a faster burning powder than H-4831... Keep in mind that there's ALSO IMR 4831 and it does NOT interchange with H-4831!

Patterns are for shotguns, "groups" are for rifles... :)

Going up 1/2 grain at a time to "fine tune" your groups is a good idea...

Adding powder raises chamber pressures, so starting low is a good idea until you learn how to judge pressures by looking at the fired primers/cases. Also in some guns, by the "feel" or how the brass extracts from the chamber.

Anyway, many times you use different powder with "heavier" bullets, because it will fill the case to a proper level so a safe amount of pressure can obtained.

Note: You can ALSO have two low of pressure with a load/powder, NOT just too high of a pressure. So, stay within known and tested loads on charts, or better yet a good loading manual.

I hope this helps...

DM

[cmdan]

I went to the range Sun night and shot at a target where I found all my shots were low by about 6 inches. When I first bought this wby I took it to the range and the first rounds I fired were pmc 165 rounds which were in the middle of the target but a wide pattern. I then fired Weatherby brand 180s and they were grouped good, but about 6 inches high. I set the scope to the weatherbys, thinking I'd just buy some more. But when I couldn't find any other weatherbys, I decided to reload. My question is why are the weatherby brand bullets so much higher at 100 yards than the pmc or the ones I reloaded? I had to adjust my scope back to where it was in the begining. I fired two different 180s and one type of 168's and they were all with in a 3 inch circle. What is different about the Weatherby brand bullets?

[DM]

I went to the range Sun night and shot at a target where I found all my shots were low by about 6 inches. When I first bought this wby I took it to the range and the first rounds I fired were pmc 165 rounds which were in the middle of the target but a wide pattern. I then fired Weatherby brand 180s and they were grouped good, but about 6 inches high. I set the scope to the weatherbys, thinking I'd just buy some more. But when I couldn't find any other weatherbys, I decided to reload. My question is why are the weatherby brand bullets so much higher at 100 yards than the pmc or the ones I reloaded? I had to adjust my scope back to where it was in the begining. I fired two different 180s and one type of 168's and they were all with in a 3 inch circle. What is different about the Weatherby brand bullets?

Wby. doesn't make bullets, ammo or much of anything else... They have there ammo ect.. made for them, and much of it (the ammo) is mfg'd by Norma to their specs...

To answer your question: I would say they shoot higher for one or all of these reasons...

Heavier bullets (180's VS 165's) have more recoil, and recoil starts while the bullet is still in the bbl... That means the bbl. is "higher" in recoil when the heavier bullet leaves the bbl, makeing it hit higher on the target.

The factory loads are "probably" loaded to a "higher" pressure, makeing the bullet hit higher on the target.

Some brands of bullets just plain hit higher or lower, or some place on a target for reasons that would take too long for my two fingers to type here... lol

Some bbls also throw different bullets in different places on the target. Then again, other bbls will group many different bullet styles/weights into the same place on a target. It's the "luck of the draw"...

And then it gets even "more" complicated to explain what all happens to make bullets do what they do...

Bottom line is, find a bullet/load that YOU like, that fits the job you expect it to do, and load the ammo. Then sight in your rifle for that ammo, and stick with it!

Practise, practise, practise!!

DM

[cmdan]

Thanks DM, I've been to the range a couple times since my last post, kind of addicted to trying to get my group closer. I decided to stick with the Nosler Accubond 180 gr bullets. I try'd 71, 71.5, 72, 72.5, up to 76, then I figured everything I read says weatherbys like hot loads, so I went with 78 max being 81.5, then the nosler book states the best results for this bullet and the RL-19 powder (I've been using this powder for the last 4 shoots) is 77 gr.

This is my pattern at 100 yd today:

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/82/l_641eea449cc14e40829e111b1615e1ea.jpg

[Rick]

... kind of addicted to trying to get my group closer.

It is kind of addicting ain't it?

[cmdan]

Due to my stock coming in contact with the barrel if I tightened the front screw on the action, I built up where the screw comes through the wood and used a type of wood puddy, now my barrel is free floating and the screws are "tight". I also changed out the scope and had the same results as before:
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/66/l_838def46b9e842b780b14afe7e151412.jpg

After I fired 6 shots, I talked to another guy, who was assisting another guy, and he asked me what I was loading. I told him it was the Accubond Nosler 180 grain boat tail. He then told me, I should not be using a boat tail bullet in the weatherby. Said, the bullet has to travel about an inch before it hits the riflings and, because of this distance, the boat tail causes the bullet to wobble and will ware out the throat prematurely. I wasn't sure weather to take his advice or not, but I just happened to have a box of weatherby 150 grain, which are not boat tailed and I try'd them on this same target. They are the three holes on the top right, two holes are touching. So I put up another target and this is the result:

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/74/l_fdb7611600fc438581e241acfdd9e319.jpg

The very top hole is without support. So I consider this 6 shots in 1 3/4 inches at 100 yards. Either way it is a big improvement. I didn't know something as simple as the type of bullet could give me this kind of problem.

Now I have to find some bullets to replace my boat tail Accubonds, load them and see what load works best. Figure I'll get some 150 and 180 grain, 150 will be good for deer this fall.

I still have some weatherby bullets left and some Hornady which are not BT, so I'll give them and try and post them to verify these results.

[Teg]

Never heard of boat tails wearing out the throat on a rifle, I do know that boat tails are supposed to be somewhat less accurate (because the tail is not centered) than flat tail bullets but it's generally not noticeable for most shooters.

[DM]

The streamlineing of boattails doesn't help you much, UNTIL you get out past 300 yards or so. So, unless your into looong range shooting, there's no advantage to using them...

Having said that, you won't live long enough to have to worry about boattails hurting your bbl. any amount!

The only real "disadvantage" i've ever found to boattails on big game is, because the jacket is tapered, as the velocity increases, they increase the chances of the core slipping in the jacket! And i call that "bullet failure"...

DM