ORGANIC VS CHEMICAL GARDENING / FARMING

[BIGGKIDD]

Hi Guys,

Any of you familiar with organic VS chemical gardening. I understand organic is better for you. I have only done a chemically fertilized garden. IE 10 10 10 fert. I also understand that if you are working a area thats had chemicals that it takes several years to get them out. I would like to produce all our own veggies and sell any surplus. In the past I have had good luck with all my gardens. We are going to a new area with different soil I am sure this will mean a learning curve. Where I am clearing will be all natural thats why I am trying to find out about organics. If we are going to go that route might as well start off that way. I would like to have enough to sell a bit and organic also brings more in returns.

Thanks
Larry 8)

[homesteadingnky]

Organic is the only way to go! Would take longer than I have now to explain why but it's easy to do and you'll be healthier and happier for doing so. Do your research. Go to the Library and check out all the books you can find on organic gardening. One in particular that I would highly recommend to you just beginning with organic gardening is Crow Miller's "Let's Get Growing". You can probably order it online from ebay or amazon for a steal. I did! ;D Focus on your soil 1st. Compost, compost, compost. It will change your soil for the better reguardless of what type it is. I'll post more later. Got to go for now. Read, Research, Experiement, and Enjoy! ;D ;D

Homesteading Dad

[Diamon_Girl]

Thanks for the book suggestion homesteadingnky! I went to Amazon and got a hardcover copy for $1.50! Sweeeeeeet!

[homesteadingnky]

That is sweet! ;D Better than I did when I got mine. I thank I paid $3.50 or something like that. It's worth the list price but I love a bargin any day! Hope you enjoy the book. Crow Miller also occasionally writes gardening articles for Countryside magazine (another of my favorites).

Homesteading Dad

[PK.]

If you're going to sell, then it may be worth checking into getting a certified organic rating. I'm not sure how it's done in every State but I would imagine your local Extension Service could help. To me, and I've been considering doing this, I think you could sell to a different market and make a good bit more money with an Organic Certification.

[homesteadingnky]

Selling as "Certified Organic" is a different animal. *The Gov. owns the word organic it seems and the $$$$ to be certified organic is high. *However you can garden organically without getting into all of that. *It's when you sell your produce and advertise organic that it gets tricky. *I don't know all the ins and outs but I did look into it when I was considering doing a CSA. *We garden organically. *We don't use chemical pesticides or synthetic fertilizers but I am not interested in paying $5000 a yr just so that I can say I'm organic and I don't like the idea of gov. anything nosing around my place telling me what I can and can't do. *But that's just me. *:)

Homesteading Dad

[PK.]

Here in Tennessee it costs about 600 bucks for a small grower to get the Certified Organic label. Reading through the booklet I have it seems that if you're selling less than $5000 annually then you can call your produce organically grown without any inspections or certification, you just can't use the labels or any of the literature available.

I'm with you as far as keeping Uncle Sam out of my garden. But for me it's more of a business decision, do I accept the intrusion and have a more lucrative market or do I just stick with regular truck farming. I have about two years to decide so I expect I'll go back and forth a bit.

[bee_pipes]

The big advantage to organic is that it's sustainable. Most standard fertilizers you buy at the coop are made from petro-chemicals. They do dose the soil with the nutrients advertised on the labels, but they are so harsh that they can do a job on the soil culture - the organisms that make the soil work. They also leach through the soil quickly, leaving it in worse shape than before the fertilizer was applied. You attempt to remedy this with more fertilizer, further aggravating the condition and getting into a viscious cycle. You are dependent on the fertilizer salesman to make anything grow in what's left of your soil, you must divert income to purchase fertilizer... you can see where you wind up chasing your own tail.

I had always been of the mind that most of the so called "organic" types were like a box of granola - what wasn't fruit and nuts was flakes. I still see, on occasion, extremists that would have us eating fallen leaves and living in caves - have no use for them. But from a practical viewpoint - why buy something I am constantly producing - fertilizer. Why take kitchen scraps to the dump when I can compost them and make mnore soil and fertilizer? Why depend on the petroleum industry, wholesale distributors and retailers for something I can produce? Why exhaust the soil when I have more than enough to provide for my needs?

Add animals to the equation and you have manure and other foods. I don't much care for the scare tactics of PETA, but there is no advantage for me to keep chickens cooped up. I have ticks and other bugs I want them to eat. They provide me with fertilizer, eggs and meat. Free range chicken may be trendy in the grocery stores, but it is a practical and simple way to raise poultry.

Pesticides and herbicides are other foreign substances that I have to pay for the priveledge of using. There are good bugs and there are bad bugs. Aphids are bad bugs for my tomatoes. Ladybugs are good bugs for my tomatoes. Cutworms are bad bugs, the wasps and hornets that eat them are good bugs. Honeybees are really good bugs. For every prey animal - the ones that cause problems, there are a low number of predator bugs - the good ones. It's the balance of nature - a given population of prey can only support a small number of predators. If the prey increase in population, the predators slowly increase because of the surplus food supply. When the prey are consumed, competetion becomes fierce and the predators die off. Their slow increase keeps the prey form being exhausted. When I use a pesticide, it doesn't care if it's a good bug or a bad bug - it kills them all. The prey (bad bugs) recover quickly and go crazy because the predators cannot keep pace - the recover slowly. I have just aggravated the situation in my garden with the pesticide - so I dose it again, further aggravating the situation. The more I use it, the more I need it. I am now dependent on the coop for poisons to keep decimating the prey bugs. Does that mean I have to wait for the predators to clean up my garden? No - I can use soaps and other anti-bug methods that are not as destructive to the predators. The "organic" pesticides are much more short-lived than the chemical pesticides. It doesn't mean they are safe - nicotine-sulfate is the grandaddy of all pesticides - it will kill you as quick as anything. It just dissipates quickly, and no bug has ever evolved a tollerance for it.

Herbicides, I likewise steer clear of - mainly on principal. I can mulch to control weeds (something else I can make at home). I can use a little elbow grease, or I can live and let live.

There are some effective chemicals out there, but we seem to have a problems with moderation and restraint when it comes to their use. They also cost money.

Two excellent books on the subject are The Humanure Handbook (http://weblife.org/humanure/default.html) (available on-line) and Rodale's Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening. The encyclopedia has been reissued a number of times, and later editions are really cheap knock-offs. Look for the old edition, 1145 pages. It is an exhaustive resource.

Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

Regards,
Pat

[AlchemyAcres]

No organic label can replace or be worth more than a one-on one relationship with your customer.

unfortunately..."Organic" has, in many cases, become a money making and marketing scheme much more than a matter of principle...that's the main reason that the almighty USDA as gotten involved.

There are people around here who grow certified 'organic' for the money and have a reputation of not being trustworthy...it is after all...just a label.

Anyway...

Here in PA Organic certification costs $660 initially and $605 annually afterwards....
There are sales bases fees on income above...$15,000...many additional assessment fees for things like poultry, etc. etc. etc....and yearly inspection fees. :-X

An alternative to 'gooberment' organic certification.....

http://www.naturallygrown.org/

~Martin

[Deberosa]

I agree the Organic label is losing it's value - people want to know how something is REALLY grown.

I see stuff now that is "70% organic". How in the world can that be? Is it made of 30% chemicals? ???

[MHinFox]

Certified naturally grown is another path to go..grass roots group. Google them. I do sustainable gardening..just using materail off my land to feed soil. feeding the soil is the trick. Shame you are not closer Wed I host a all day seminar on how to do it. people have fallen in love with the idea of using just the materail off your on land to garden with. We have had good crowds of great people attend. it is really a lot of fun as well. Host a couple of sessions every spring. Free to the public...if want some ideas i posted it in announcement area.

[MHinFox]

page 2 has post of the free seminar I do each year for a list of what is covered in seminar.

[BIGGKIDD]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the great info. I can't believe I forgot to check back until now. I think for the time being I will stick with what I know. Once we are moved and comfy I might just try. In a second garden area..

Larry 8)

[mtwildflower]

I admit it. I like fertilizer. I use it and I like the results of getting a good yield for my efforts. I'm also just starting out my compost pile and it will be awhile before it's really ready to use.

As far as I am concerned, "organic" labels in grocery stores are mostly a gimmick for the the ones who don't want to have to get dirty and raise their own food, to feel better about themselves if they pay more to be "healthy." Then, they think it gives them license to look down at others who buy fresh fruits and vegetables on the "other' side of the produce section and won't or can't spend the $$$$ to buy the "right" stuff.

Organic is just another way to bring classism into the business of eating good food. Why in the world would I want to spend $4 for a pound of "organic" spinach when I can buy it for $1.50 otherwise ( if I don't grow it myself)? and spend my other 2.50 on brocolli and carrots? I think that's just being a poor steward and foolish with my money!

Like it or not, fertilizer is instrumental in feeding more people. In our own little gardens, we're free to farm and do as we please, and I'm not knocking it, but frankly, I am glad for modern inventions like fertilizer and pesticides, (used sparingly) because more people can eat as a result. I think that trumps whatever minute risk there may be in contracting some God-knows-what disease possibly linked to chemical contamination.

[bee_pipes]

...I like fertilizer. I use it and I like the results of getting a good yield for my efforts. I'm also just starting out my compost pile and it will be awhile before it's really ready to use...


I don't think that makes you a bad person, or in need of some 12-step program. Heck, I have used Miracle-Gro in the past. It's just a matter of what fertilizer, and that comes as a matter of experience and personal preferences. A lot of the ag fertilizers do work - they wouldn't sell if they didn't work.

It's also a matter of what you are trying to accomplish. We can get along with the organics we use to grow our own food. If I were trying to grow as a business, I might have to make other judgements about what I use. The real objection I have to some of the ag fertilizers is that they are used in massive doses to promote a crop without doing much good for the soil. That would happen in more industrialized farming operations. Even such an outfit would eventually have to look at long-term effect on the soil - no business can intentionally shoot itself in the foot. When the suburban Harry-Homeowners out there see pallets of inexpensive ag fertilizers, they tend to go crazy and thing triple 12 can solve all their problems.


... "organic" labels in grocery stores are mostly a gimmick... ... just another way to bring classism...
... free to farm and do as we please...


As you can see from the previous posts, you are preaching to the choir. The organic label is a marketing gimmic and has found a home with elitists that are willing to pay for the priveledge of looking down their noses at the pleblians surrounding them ;D

You do have the right to do as you please. Maybe the tone of this thread got off course and gave the same impression of elitism. I stick with organic where possible because of long-term benefits to the soil. We have poor soil here, and building up the garden is a long-term process.

One problem you will find with compost - you can never make enough. Still, better to take waste that would otherwise have to be dealt with and make it into something useful. My bins are two pallets in length and one pallet wide. A good sized bin, and stuffed full by the end of the season. They sit for a year before using, and by the time that year is over they have broken down to less than half their volume.

Pesticides do have their place. The real art in their use comes from selection of the appropriate pesticide and the dosage. There again, the suburban homeowner sees retail displays for chemicals that promise everything.

Herbicides - I suppose if I had kudzu trying to take over or some other problem, I might have to make decisions about that.

The real point of this thread should be that there are alernatives to the chemical-intensive gardening that the media and advertisers promote. Other than selling the occasional compost tumbler, there's no money in telling people how to make use of yard and kitchen wastes. There's more profit in selling manufactured fertilizers. They have their applications, where they are the best solutions, but they are not the only game in town.

Martin said it best - there's no substitute for knowing where your food came from and how it was grown - an impossibility in grocery stores. But not all of us have access to the growers.

Regards,
Pat

[BIGGKIDD]

Hi All,

Got another question for you good folks. I have been spreading the potash out of my wood furnace on the areas I am trying to grow grass. I will most likely add it to my garden area also. I understand this has some good nutriants in it. But I can't remember what they are. But my question is how much lime do I need to add to counter act the acid from this? Do I need to be real acurite in the amounts of Potash to lime or will just a general guesstimate do?

I'm so bored we couldn't go to the property this weekend its raining cats and dogs here.

Thanks
Larry 8)

[bee_pipes]

Potash is good - particularly for garden and fruit trees. It's one of the three major nutrients (N-P-K - nitrogen, phosphate, potash). Wood ashes also contain lye - not necessaritly a bad thing in the doses you're feeding out, but lye is an alkaline (sp?) or plus pH. You put down lime to raise pH of the soil. You should check your soil pH before liming - the wood ash might have already raised the pH. You can find inexpensive soil testing kits at most garden stores, or get a test meter for a few bucks more so you don't have to keep replacing the kits.

I usually wait until there's a rain coming, then take the wood ashes out and scatter them around the fruit trees and garden. That way I'm sure the water will paste it to the ground and wash it into the soil, rather than blowing it around. It also helps when there's fresh ash in the can that might have a few live cinders left in it.

Regards,
Pat

[DM]

Hi All,

*Got another question for you good folks. I have been spreading the potash out of my wood furnace on the areas I am trying to grow grass. I will most likely add it to my garden area also. I understand this has some good nutriants in it. But I can't remember what they are. But my question is how much lime do I need to add to counter act the acid from this? Do I need to be real acurite in the amounts of Potash to lime or will just a general guesstimate do?

*I'm so bored we couldn't go to the property this weekend its raining cats and dogs here.
Thanks
Larry * *8)

*I'm going to say you shouldn't "guess" on this... *You need to take a soil sample and send it in so you know forsure! *Last one i sent in cost me $15.00, but then i knew forsure what i needed...

The soil sample will tell you EVERYTHING your garden spot needs, not just the PH.

*I also spread all of my stove ashes on my garden spot...

*DM

[mtwildflower]

Yes, I realize I am preaching to the choir LOL and that I am in the company of people who are down to earth and sensible. Mostly the previous post was a vent of how frustrating the elitist types really are. I was recently on a forum where someone was very proud of herself for 'only eating' "cruelty free" beef. How freaking cruelty free can it be when it's DEAD???!!!

And I know her point was that she was interested that the animal was treated humanley, but good Lord! Give us a break! As if semantics frees you from the responsiblity that you consume beef and like it. OOOooooohhhh...that's so BAD to admit!!! Argh.

And, I'm off on a tangent, but I think you know what I am getting at. I don't get the impression that many 'puritans' exist here and I can certainly respect the desire to take care of our little piece of ground so that it takes care of us. But so help me, I cannot take seriously those who would insist there is only one right way and that any other way is not only wrong, but damaging to the global health overall. Gag. KWIM?

[bee_pipes]

..where someone was very proud of herself for 'only eating' "cruelty free" beef. How freaking cruelty free can it be when it's DEAD???!!!


Well, I for one will never use cosmetics on my livestock, unless it's a special occasion ;D

Yeah - you've got yer dillitantes (?SP), city folk that buy into some fad (more money than sense) and yer militant vegans, petans, etc.

If we were doing this as a business, might be a little more hasty/expedient with handling the livestock, but only a fool or sick individual would be unnecessarily cruel. They get fed, they get as much freedom as predators and local conditions permit. But in the end, the best you can do is dispatch them quickly and humanely.

You're right - there's a lot of elitist claptrap out there. I like this way of living because I get to take responsibility for how I live, not hide in the separation between me, eating the meat on the little styrofoam tray, and the guy that put it on the tray.

Personally, when it comes to damaging the global health, I prefer to discharge flurocarbons into the air and deplete the ozone while curled up with a good book. ;D

Regards,
Pat

[BIGGKIDD]

Hi All,

Thanks again for the informative posts. I to have test kits. Haven't gotten that far yet. And of course I can't remember where they are at right now. Probably with last years left over seeds.

DM,

When you have the soil tested do they check just for nutriants or for anything that may be there?

Thanks
Larry

[DM]

Hi All,

Thanks again for the informative posts. I to have test kits. Haven't gotten that far yet. And of course I can't remember where they are at right now. Probably with last years left over seeds.

*DM,

When you have the soil tested do they check just for nutriants or for anything that may be there?
Thanks
Larry

You tell them what you plan to grow in that spot, and they tell you what you need to apply to get the soil where it needs to be for what your growing...

DM

[pergammano]

Phew! Lots of chains rattled here! Getting certified (Gov't) in B.C. was such an eye opener to me! Ttl. cost around $3500.00 & $250.00 a yr. membership! Can't even think of going there. Have been pesticide/chemical free here for 29 years, but I can't verify totally free, cause I can't control the overspray wafting in on the breeze from my neighbour ... so do what I can, go with what I can, like lots of labour...but I'm guessing that 50% natural is the best that I can do not being able to control what others have introduced into the environment. :'(

[hillsidedigger]

I am trying to learn organic gardening technigues because I think the day will soon arrive when chemical fertilizer and pesticides cannot be obtained at any cost and the 80% of the world's food that is grown with petrochemical products will be lost (along with the people who depend on it) and I feel that organic technigues improve the soil and chemical technigues degrade the soil..

[mtwildflower]

I feel that organic technigues improve the soil and chemical technigues degrade the soil..

So what do you base this 'feeling' on? Are you finding evidence of degraded soil ...i.e. dead worms, difficult to produce a crop from, mutated insects and small animals, a finger growing from your forehead, etc.?

Feelings personally mean nothing to me on a topic like this. If I can see concrete evidence regarding damage or yield in my own yard and in the fields around me, then I tend to base my conclusions on fact rather than feelings.

[bee_pipes]

No extra fingers, dead worms, mutations, etc. but there are some little published side-effects from products like miracle-gro and other fertilizers. Some of them leave a salt residue in the soil that destroys the soil culture - the microbe community that makes the soil fertile. You really have to hand it to them - they make your tomatoes bigger and leave the soil in such a state that you are dependent on their product. Miracle-gro is not the only product that disrupts the soil with it's residues. This is a big advantage of using manure and other organics. But it also has to be practical - otherwise people fall back on the chemicals.

For example - you can put superphosphate or triple superphosphate in your soil to feed your crops. It will leech through the soil in a season, not only leaving it as depleted of phosphate as it previously was, but also leaving residues from the chemicals. Or, you can use phosphate rock, rock dust, bone meal, or other natural sources of phosphate and you will have phosphate in the soil for a number of years.

Nitrogen is particularly dynamic - the nitrogen levels in your soil can change during a thunder storm. There are tons of natural sources - coffee grounds for one - the stuff you throw away is an excellent source of slow release notrogen. Blood meal is another. Nitrogen is generally something you will have to boost every crop. Rotational planting and cover crops are a good way to boost nitrogen content of the soil. Beans and peas are particularly good because they grow a microbe culture that fixes nitrogen into the soil. You can even innoculate seed before planting to jump start this culture.

Potash - lots of sources for that, but wood ashes from your stove are the easist to come by.

But then you have to juggle all that with soil pH, trace minerals, etc. You can quickly make this more complicated than it needs to be. Lime and sulphur are usually used to adjust pH. From first hand experience, bone meal and green sand can affect pH. The best resource is someone successfully doing this for a long time (unlike me) - they will know how to keep it simple and the easiest way to accomplish good soil fertility. We have crappy soil here and every year we work on it, it improves. There were no worms here when we started.

Regards,
Pat

[AlchemyAcres]

Good post Pat....

I think that the differences in conventional and 'organic', in the general sense of the term, aren't so obvious in the beginning, but as time goes on there are (can) be drastic differences.

I look at it like a checking account vs. a savings account...

Conventional being the checking account...lets call it checkbook gardening....you make deposits and withdrawals on a never ending and more frequent basis...deposit and withdrawal...deposit and withdrawal...never really gaining anything, your always depend on deposit and withdrawal...eventually overdrawing.. leading to penalties and the need greater deposits...on and on...always dependent on purchased inputs.

"Organic' is more like a savings account drawing interest..lets call it savings account gardening.....sometimes a bit slower to start...but with a small investment and occasional deposits you draw interest...more and more all the time....building long term fertility and soil health to the point where the need for inputs becomes minimal, yet always drawing interest.

What could make more sense?

~Martin :)

[BIGGKIDD]

Martin,

I like the way you put that even I understand it that way.

Larry

[WileyCoyote]

I'm all about organic.
When we first moved here 24 years ago, the soil was dead, hard clay. The only thing that grew here was pine trees and underbrush. No worms.

The very first thing I did was cut and clear. Then I went to a stable and cleaned it out. We brought home a trailerful of manure - some of it over a year old, had been piled up and just left. I spread it over the whole yard and tilled it in. I smelled for days, and so did the yard.

Then the following spring I started planting. Bit by bit, my yard has been covered with flowering and producing trees, bushes, bulbs, and corms. Now my yard blooms from March until November, and produces peaches, cherries, blackberries, and vegetables. I use organic fertilizers like bone meal and stuff from Garden's Alive that work with the soil, break down over time. Martin is right - the quick fix fertilizers are helpful if you are in a hurry or haven't prepared the soil - or had the time to do so. But the best investment you can make is in your soil first... as things rot and combine and react with one another over time, the soil has better tilth and pretty much takes care of itself.

Folks say I can put a dead stick in my yard and the next season it will grow. I just smile. It takes a lot of effort to mulch and weed and debug and cut back and... but my green thumb comes from patience over time. As for the 'organic' meats and vegies - what a scam. Everything's 'organic', everything comes from organic sources - if you go back far enough! I prefer 'natural'.

[hardrock]

Wow! I like the way you folks think!

Organic is the only way. I don't know as much as I should about it, but I believe Martin said it best...........think
checking VS savings.
With chemical farming/gardening you work completely alone.
With organic, you not only get the help of all those lil' buggers above/below ground, you foster "sustainability" for your soil as well as yourself. They're there to help you....let'em.

It's probably safe to say when the man upstairs made this big ball 'o dirt you can bet your bottom fiat dollar he
DIDN'T consult with Cargil/Monsanto.....(grin!)

Living in the cornbelt, I've seen what has happened to farming over the years.
We've "redlined" the dirt.
Max chemical inputs chasing max yields.......
The head's swallowing the tail........
If we stopped that for one season, we'd be darned lucky if we could even grow weeds.


mtwildflower,
LMAO!
You're right......Nothing more comical than watchin' a herd of Gucchi shoes loadin' "designer label' Organics into their Escalades!
It's to commercialized now to even think about getting Certified Organic.
Just like any good idea that's good for us, somebody somewhere sees it as a threat and swoops in and takes
hold of the reins.
I think we need to start a nation-wide grassroots Co-op.
Membership $1.00. Patent and copyright the name "Honest to Gosh Real Food" before it's too late............

[DM]

I sure don't claim to be an expert either, but i do what works for me.

I no longer buy any chem ferts at all... Since we stopped using them about 15 or 20 years ago, i've found my garden uses less water... This is important as summers are getting drier and drier all over the country.. Mulch on the other hand, allows the moisture to stay where your plants need it longer, instead of evaporating away... Chem fert needs water to work, so you need more and more water...

I no longer have near as many bad bug problems. I rarely use any chems for bugs. I did have to pick off some tomato worms last year, but that's the first time in 4 or 5 years that i had to do so. I do "sometimes" have to dust my cabbage but not near as much as i use to.

I'm a big believer in mulch, and i mulch all of my gardens "heavily" every summer. Another bunus is, the mulch keeps the weeds to a minimum, so there's very little weeding.

DM