A question for Shamrock1121

[FloridaWyld]

I didn't want to hijack someone else's topic, so I thought I'd move my question here.



As a Kansas State University Master Food Volunteer, I've received hours of training on home canning and food safety from Karen Blakeslee - Food Scientist at K.S.U. - and Karen P. Penner - Extension Specialist, Food Science, and Professor, Foods and Nutrition - K.S.U.

We have more and stronger microorganisms now than ever before. Using untested recipes for home canning is risky business because of these new and more powerful bacteria. For those of you who choose to use old recipes, untested recipes, and unsafe canning methods, please don't feed the resulting foods to elderly people, children/babies, people on medication, people with compromised immune systems, and anyone with health conditions. These people tend to die from ingestion of toxins.

If you can't find a recipe for something in The Ball Blue Book or at the National Center for Home Food Preservation, chances are it's unsafe.

-Karen


How many people get sick and/or die from poorly preserved home processed foods each year? Is there any information on this type of statistic available to the public?

Also, I have seen repeatedly where you advise members of the forum to work with their local extension office to develop safe recipes for their preserved foods. Why is the information on how to determine recipe preservation requirements not available freely to everyone?

I find it very hard to believe that in this day and age we haven't come up with a formula (perhaps based on pH levels of the ingredients, etc) that tells you when a recipe includes A + B then it must be preserved for x amount of time. I concede that the values of the formula perhaps change frequently as stronger biologicals put in their appearance, but I don't see this in any way as a hindrance to the freedom of the information.

I'm not asking to be 'snotty'- I really don't understand why it is that if someone wants to develop a recipe for their own special spaghetti sauce, they have to go to the extension office to have someone determine the proper preservation time. It seems at odds with the entire concept of being self reliant and SAFE-- and makes me wonder-- a lot.

[CanNerd]

I'm not Shamrock1121, but here is some information to help answer your questions.

Foodborne Botulism in the United States, 1990–2000 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no9/03-0745.htm)
There are many other bacterias, molds, fungi, yeasts, etc. involved, but even Botulism poisoning is hard to track because people seldom report food poisoning and when they do go to their doctor/hospital it is often reported as the Flu since the symptoms are identical. They do say that up to 94% of Flu cases are actually food poisonings.

There are other statistics out there I'm sure, but the above link is the one I refer to the most.
*Why is the information on how to determine recipe preservation requirements not available freely to everyone?
It is, in the publications on canning and most recipe books, plus on the internet. The Ball Blue Book of Preserving is considered the bible, but there are lots of others. Just make sure it was published after 1990 when the rules on canning changed.

I find it very hard to believe that in this day and age we haven't come up with a formula (perhaps based on pH levels of the ingredients, etc) that tells you when a recipe includes A + B then it must be preserved for x amount of time.
Unfortunately foods are not perfect, nor is our ability to have a science laboratory in our homes. The vast majority of unique recipes have been tested since 1990 by food scientists in laboratories that have the equipment to do it. Stability of the food at room temperature is also an issue.

The acidity of Tomatoes is a good example. They now run the gamut from 4.0 pH to 4.8 pH (4.6 pH and lower is acidic), so some will be acidic and others not, and despite some statements, pH testers/strips cannot properly test 'foods', only liquids. The food scientists therefore require a shotgun approach of adding bottled lemon juice to all tomato canning.

Canning is fun and safe if you follow the rules, but it is a science and does involve chemistry and other issues that cannot be easily worked out in the average kitchen, if at all. The food scientists know what they are talking about, especially at the National Center for Home Food Preservation, which is THE authority in the US on the subject.

[Shamrock1121]

Thank you CanNerd for the excellent input. I can't add a thing to it.

FloridaWyld -

Please feel free to do anything your heart desires when it comes to home canning, lots of people play "Russian Roulette" everyday with home canned foods. I'll just ask you not to feed it to anyone else if you don't follow scientifically tested recipes and untested and dangerous methods for home canning.

When people ask questions about home canning that are dangerous, can make them, or others, sick, I COULD sit back and let their ignorance or willful stupidity take it's natural coarse, and I think that's what I'll do from now on.

Just as cases of toxins in home canned foods rose in the 1970's from newcomers to home canning without benefit of up-to-date information, during another era of layoffs and inflation/recession, we may see the same thing happening now with the new crop of home canners. Especially if some of the questions posted on this message board are any example.

Making up your own canning recipes is unsafe without scientific testing. It's not just the pH, but after the product has been in storage, has bacteria turned into a toxin? Your pH paper won't tell you that.

Lets say you add extra starch, flour or other thickener to a recipe. This will change the rate of heat penetration into the product and can result in under-processing.

Adding extra onions, chili, bell peppers, or other vegetables to salsas can result in diluted acidity and can result in botulism poisoning.

Go ahead and make your mistakes.

-Karen

[Route6]

Thank you CanNerd for the excellent input. *I can't add a thing to it.

FloridaWyld - *

Please feel free to do anything your heart desires when it comes to home canning, lots of people play "Russian Roulette" everyday with home canned foods. * I'll just ask you not to feed it to anyone else if you don't follow scientifically tested recipes and untested and dangerous methods for home canning. *

When people ask questions about home canning that are dangerous, can make them, or others, sick, I COULD sit back and let their ignorance or willful stupidity take it's natural coarse, and I think that's what I'll do from now on. * *

Just as cases of toxins in home canned foods rose in the 1970's from newcomers to home canning without benefit of up-to-date information, during another era of layoffs and inflation/recession, we may see the same thing happening now with the new crop of home canners. *Especially if some of the questions posted on this message board are any example. * *

Making up your own canning recipes is unsafe without scientific testing. *It's not just the pH, but after the product has been in storage, has bacteria turned into a toxin? *Your pH paper won't tell you that. *

Lets say you add extra starch, flour or other thickener to a recipe. *This will change the rate of heat penetration into the product and can result in under-processing.

Adding extra onions, chili, bell peppers, or other vegetables to salsas can result in diluted acidity and can result in botulism poisoning.

Go ahead and make your mistakes. *

-Karen



Why do you feel the need to respond with such snarky remarks?


{6}

[FloridaWyld]

FloridaWyld - *

Please feel free to do anything your heart desires when it comes to home canning, lots of people play "Russian Roulette" everyday with home canned foods. * I'll just ask you not to feed it to anyone else if you don't follow scientifically tested recipes and untested and dangerous methods for home canning. *

When people ask questions about home canning that are dangerous, can make them, or others, sick, I COULD sit back and let their ignorance or willful stupidity take it's natural coarse, and I think that's what I'll do from now on. * *



I am appalled at your response to what are very logical questions. Rather than provide an answer to an honest set of questions- like CanNerd did- you simply attack me and reply in a manner that portrays me as an ignorant, dangerous person out feeding improperly preserved food to every old woman and baby I can get my hands on.

The questions I asked were- and still are- valid questions for ANYONE who wants to be informed about the process of canning.

With help like yours, its no wonder the topic is so confusing.

[CanNerd]

Without defending Shamrock1121's response here, I can understand totally where it comes from and I left another message board because people there brought a food scientist and instructor to tears by the ridicule for sticking to the safety rules when they wanted to "do their own thing."

I try hard to give responsible and accurate information to help those that want the help and information, and I spend a lot of time doing research and follow up to make sure I am accurate, but there is a vocal bunch out there that constantly degrade the effort and it hurts. *Sometimes its hard not to be sarcastic or cynical.

I really don't care what a person does in their own home since its their life, but I draw the line at allowing it to be stated on these public message boards as being "safe". *Botulism poisoning "is" rare, but it does occur. *Other kinds of poisoning may not kill, unless of course you are in that category of higher risk. *They may die. *You may just suffer simple diarrhea. *Most of us should practice safe techniques and if we get sloppy one day perhaps the margin of safety is enough to protect us. *I like that.

Let's all talk safe canning rules and we will all be a very happy and friendly group. I promise.

[FloridaWyld]

I completely understand the need for safety and the dangers that are imminent should those safety guidelines be ignored- and I do appreciate the well thought out response you gave full of information.

To be honest, I am someone who works with chemistry on a daily basis and I am trying to comprehend this subject from that viewpoint- hence my questions. I believe in being informed and making logical conclusions- which means I need more information than I have been able to find.

My questions were not intended as a put-down or to seem bratty- which can be hard to convey without inflection; which is why I pointed that out in my first post. I simply wanted to know answers to questions that I was unable to find via research.

To be honest, I'm still quite confused on this topic. I've registered for the food safety course linked by another member (from the Georgia website) and can only hope that, when added to the information I have garnered from this website, the answers will become clear.

I just can not imagine that each extension office is taking someone's recipe, creating it, chemically analyzing it and then determining the proper canning time/method. It strikes me as much more likely that there are set guidelines for certain foods- a thought that could be entirely incorrect for all I know. To explain what I mean, let's go back to the example given of tomatoes. It seems logical that- since levels of acidity vary- the longest possible time would be applied to ensure that all variety of biologicals were eliminated.

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond and can assure you I have no intention of 'picking' on the food experts.

[CanNerd]

I just can not imagine that each extension office is taking someone's recipe, creating it, chemically analyzing it and then determining the proper canning time/method.
Actually they do, but they are soooooo busy that they do not take individual requests unless it is a unique recipe not already covered, but that is rare because there are tested recipes out there for just about everything. If you can't find a recipe it is usually because it is unsafe.

And if you have an Extension near you, ask for a visit and tour. *They will probably fall all over themselves to do it. *They want to help us, within their abilities to do so.

Email the National Center for Home Food Preservation and you WILL get a personal response, though you must be patient for it. *Elizabeth Andress PhD is probably one of the nicest and most helpful people you could meet.

let's go back to the example given of tomatoes. It seems logical that- since levels of acidity vary- the longest possible time would be applied to ensure that all variety of biologicals were eliminated.
Logical perhaps, but the objective is NOT to cook all the nutrients out of the foods trying to make it safe. *There are other issues too, but that's the basic concept and why testing on different levels occurs to find what works best.

Do take that online study course at the NCHFP through the Univ. of Georgia. *It will gives you considerable information and don't hesitate to use the "search" function on their website. *Their information is vast. *And you can also email them if you still have a question.

All of us ARE here to make your canning experience fun and safe. *Perhaps the hard part is accepting the fact that the 'rules' are accurate and should be followed even if you don't understand 'why' as yet (while you seek the answer).


Are Grandmother's Pickle Recipes Safe? (http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/columncc/cc990430.html)

[otterbob]

I am appalled at your response to what are very logical questions. Rather than provide an answer to an honest set of questions- like CanNerd did- you simply attack me and reply in a manner that portrays me as an ignorant, dangerous person out feeding improperly preserved food to every old woman and baby I can get my hands on.

The questions I asked were- and still are- valid questions for ANYONE who wants to be informed about the process of canning.

With help like yours, its no wonder the topic is so confusing.

It's called Fear mongering!

Canning is a simple process and safe when up to date and recognized procedures are followed .

As for making your own recipe, I do this all the time.

My rule of thumb is the product should be processed with the time and procedure that would apply to the ingredient requiring the most processing.
I also add a little time and or pressure to the published time and or pressure for that ingredient as a safety factor.

Be Safe And Have Fun !!!

Otter Bob

[otterbob]

*If you can't find a recipe it is usually because it is unsafe.


No offense meant but that is not a fair statement !

Recipes are highly cultural and localized, therefore the books and testing can not cover even the majority of different recipes. Just take a look at the cookbook section in the stores or online.
With that said you need to fall-back on a "deemed safe" rule of thumb.

The number one reason so many people won't try canning is because Fear mongering on "Canning" is so rampant .

Otter Bob

[CanNerd]

You may not consider it "fair" by your thinking, but it is accurate and what is stated by the Extensions.

I don't consider following safe rules created by experts in the field, most of which have phD's, as "fear mongering" but I guess that is a matter of interpretation by those that would rather tweak the rules to fit their own ends....and thus confuse people.

No offense meant.

[otterbob]

You may not consider it "fair" by your thinking, but it is accurate and what is stated by the Extensions.

I don't consider following safe rules created by experts in the field, most of which have phD's, as "fear mongering" but I guess that is a matter of interpretation by those that would rather tweak the rules to fit their own ends....and thus confuse people.

No offense meant.


So which "phD" said "If you can't find a recipe it is usually because it is unsafe."

A question was asked and you tell everyone to use a book produced be a "Company" called Ball, but do not answer the question.
I give an answer from a book produced by a "company" called Kerr.
You based your answer to my post on what "Extensions" say, Yet "extensions" just pass along information given to them that may not be totally correct.
I am not "tweeking" the rules or information any more then the statements that you and Shamrock have made !
I have not tried to create fear or misinformation.

As a matter of fact you stated that the authority is "USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning" , OK, lets take a quick look at their "Guide 5, Preparing
and Canning Poultry, Red Meats, and Seafoods" that is published online at http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/usda/utah_can_guide_05.pdf
You will notice that there is only ONE recipe in the entire guide, Everything else is procedure .
You should also notice that Goat is not listed, care to tell me that a person should not can goat , one of the most common meats raised by homesteaders?
Maybe you believe the scientist that produced the guide/procedure for Bear { which most homesteaders will never need to can !} is more important.

Now that your "authority" does not publish recipes but publishes procedures your statement "If you can't find a recipe it is usually because it is unsafe." is totally incorrect !

I know you and shamrock mean well, but be careful of the statements you quote ! and be a little more open minded as to where given information may be found.

Still a cyber friend !
Otter Bob

[CanNerd]

I'm not going to raise my blood pressure on this. You choose not to respect the published safety guidelines and wish to challenge the authority. That's your choice.

I prefer to guide people by what is published as correct and safe.

As for your goat, it is referred to as "meat" and can be found in books of published and tested recipes.

[Route6]

The Ball Blue Book is a resource we all seem to depend on. This is the only commercial canning book that follows the USDA recommendations.



Can anyone confirm the above statement?

What about the "Ball Complete Book of Home Preserving"?

http://www.amazon.com/BALL-Complete-Book-Home-Preserving/dp/0778801314


{6}

[otterbob]

on Jan 10th, 2009, 11:31am, Shamrock1121 wrote:
The Ball Blue Book is a resource we all seem to depend on. This is the only commercial canning book that follows the USDA recommendations.


Can anyone confirm the above statement?

{6}

No, it is not correct !

Look at this :
http://www.uga.edu/setp/

Otter Bob

[otterbob]

To say you cannot adjust a recipe is not correct.

MIXED VEGETABLES

Optional mix—You may change the suggested proportions or substitute other favorite

vegetables except leafy greens, dried beans, cream-style corn, squash and sweet potatoes.


Notice the above text in blue !
This is copied from the “Authority” “USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning”

Please note that the statements about changing recipes as being to dangerous is fear mongering.

Consider the recipe for spaghetti sauce.
If you make the sauce without meat AND PROCESS AS WITHOUT MEAT you must stick with the recipe OR process it as per sauce with meat. By reading the different extractions from the guide below you will notice that the caution under procedure for sauce without meat does not apply to sauce with meat. We and confirm this by looking up the processing procedure for peppers and mushrooms in the charts, which is less then for meat, thus the rule I gave in a previous post is still correct under the USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning.


From :
USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning .

SPAGHETTI SAUCE WITHOUT MEAT

30 lbs tomatoes

1 cup chopped onions

5 cloves garlic, minced

1 cup chopped celery or green peppers

1 lb fresh mushrooms, sliced (optional)

4-1/2 tsp salt

2 tbsp oregano

4 tbsp minced parsley

2 tsp black pepper

1/4 cup brown sugar

1/4 cup vegetable oil

3-11

Yield: About 9 pints

Procedure: Caution: Do not increase the proportion of onions, peppers, or mushrooms.

Wash tomatoes and dip in boiling water for 30 to 60 seconds or until skins split. Dip in cold

water and slip off skins. Remove cores and quarter tomatoes. Boil 20 minutes, uncovered, in

large saucepan. Put through food mill or sieve. Saute onions, garlic, celery or peppers, and

mushrooms (if desired) in vegetable oil until tender. Combine sauteed vegetables and

tomatoes and add remainder of spices, salt, and sugar. Bring to a boil. Simmer, uncovered,

until thick enough for serving. At this time the initial volume will have been reduced by nearly

one-half. Stir frequently to avoid burning. Fill jars, leaving 1-inch headspace. Adjust lids and

process.


Recommended process time for Spaghetti Sauce Without Meat in a DIAL-GAUGE

pressure canner

Canner Gauge Pressure (PSI) at Altitudes of

Style of Jar Size Process 0– 2,001– 4,001– 6,001–

Pack Time 2,000 ft 4,000 ft 6,000 ft 8,000 ft

Hot Pints 20 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb

Quarts 25 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb


SPAGHETTI SAUCE WITH MEAT

30 lbs tomatoes

2-1/2 lbs ground beef or sausage

5 cloves garlic, minced

1 cup chopped onions

1 cup chopped celery or green peppers

1 lb fresh mushrooms, sliced (optional)

4-1/2 tsp salt

2 tbsp oregano

4 tbsp minced parsley

2 tsp black pepper

1/4 cup brown sugar

Yield: About 9 pints

Procedure: To prepare tomatoes, follow directions for Spaghetti Sauce Without Meat, page 3-

11. Saute beef or sausage until brown. Add garlic, onion, celery or green pepper, and

mushrooms, if desired. Cook until vegetables are tender. Combine with tomato pulp in large

saucepan. Add spices, salt, and sugar. Bring to a boil. Simmer, uncovered, until thick enough

for serving. At this time initial volume will have been reduced by nearly one-half. Stir frequently

to avoid burning. Fill jars, leaving 1-inch headspace. Adjust lids and process.

Recommended process time for Spaghetti Sauce With Meat in a DIAL-GAUGE

pressure canner

Canner Gauge Pressure (PSI) at Altitudes of

Style of Process

Jar Size 0– 2,001– 4,001– 6,001–

Pack Time 2,000 ft 4,000 ft 6,000 ft 8,000 ft

Hot Pints 60 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb

Quarts 70 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Recommended process time for Peppers in a DIAL-GAUGE pressure canner

Canner Gauge Pressure (PSI) at Altitudes of

Style of Jar Size Process 0– 2,001– 4,001– 6,001–

Pack Time 2,000 ft 4,000 ft 6,000 ft 8,000 ft

Hot Half-pints 35 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb

or Pints

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Recommended process time for Mushrooms in a DIAL-GAUGE pressure canner

Canner Gauge Pressure (PSI) at Altitudes of

Jar Size Process 0– 2,001– 4,001– 6,001–

Style of

Pack Time 2,000 ft 4,000 ft 6,000 ft 8,000 ft

Hot Half-pints 45 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb

or Pints

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Recommended process time for Mixed Vegetables in a DIAL-GAUGE pressure canner

Canner Gauge Pressure (PSI) at Altitudes of

Jar Size Process 0– 2,001– 4,001– 6,001–

Style of

Pack Time 2,000 ft 4,000 ft 6,000 ft 8,000 ft

Hot Pints 75 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb

Quarts 90 min 11 lb 12 lb 13 lb 14 lb


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MIXED VEGETABLES

6 cups sliced carrots

6 cups cut, whole kernel sweet com

6 cups cut green beans

6 cups shelled lima beans

4 cups whole or crushed tomatoes

4 cups diced zucchini

Yield: 7 quarts

Optional mix—You may change the suggested proportions or substitute other favorite

vegetables except leafy greens, dried beans, cream-style corn, squash and sweet potatoes.


The “USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning” may be found here:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/publications_usda.html

Otter Bob

[sbemt456]

I had a thought. And I'll just let it pass.

You tell em Otterbob!


Good Day!

stella

[Gobstopper]

One must never question the authority of the almighty USDA and their pawns.
http://i39.tinypic.com/9lhpno.jpg

Gob ::)

[CanNerd]

And this, FloridaWyld, is why good people quit trying to be helpful, Shamrock1121 makes the comments he does and we experience the quality of BHM being dragged down into the sewer. It's more than sad.

[otterbob]

And this, FloridaWyld, is why good people quit trying to be helpful, Shamrock1121 makes the comments he does and we experience the quality of BHM being dragged down into the sewer. * It's more than sad.


What is sad is the fact that when someone corrects misinformation or incomplete information . Someone has to make a snide remark about the quality of BHM.

Just because there is incomplete or misinformation on BHM does not drag down the quality of the forum. What would drag down the quality would be if no one stepped up to point out the incomplete or misinformation !

I will not respond to any more "snipping" posts on this thread.
But I will continue to do as much as I can to help correct incomplete or misinformation on BHM and other boards.

I have posted the source of the information I used, which is the same source quoted by the members posting the incomplete or misinformation.

I do not believe the misinformation was deliberate , I believe that hackles were raised because some were not aware of what the quoted "Authority" has published.

This post is not an attack on any member, only my opinion !

Canning is safe and fun.
I also support and recommend the quoted authority "USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning" and use of the Ball Blue Book. There are many other resources and books that contain very good information. All sources of information should be compared against the "USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning" and any discrepancies carefully considered !

Otter Bob

[bee_pipes]

...How many people get sick and/or die from poorly preserved home processed foods each year? Is there any information on this type of statistic available to the public?

Also, I have seen repeatedly where you advise members of the forum to work with their local extension office to develop safe recipes for their preserved foods. *Why is the information on how to determine recipe preservation requirements not available freely to everyone?

I find it very hard to believe that in this day and age we haven't come up with a formula (perhaps based on pH levels of the ingredients, etc) that tells you when a recipe includes A + B then it must be preserved for x amount of time. *I concede that the values of the formula perhaps change frequently as stronger biologicals put in their appearance, but I don't see this in any way as a hindrance to the freedom of the information.

I'm not asking to be 'snotty'- I really don't understand why it is that if someone wants to develop a recipe for their own special spaghetti sauce, they have to go to the extension office to have someone determine the proper preservation time. *It seems at odds with the entire concept of being self reliant and SAFE-- and makes me wonder-- a lot.

The thread started with a question asked of Shamrock. The question was couched in terms disputing some of the statements that Shamrocks has made. If you'd like to dispute these comments, feel free. The information is out on the web and a google search will provide results.

Shamrock has a great deal of experience in a number of areas and is sharing the information with members of the forum.

She is not here to argue [] over technicalities. If you don't agree with her opinions, feel free to do the research and draw your own conclusions.

If you'd like to experiment with your own recipes and formulas, please do knock yourself out.

The thread has degenerated into a festival of opinions and become a soapbox for axe grinding about bureaucracies. If you feel you have the answers, then proceed and use your common sense. If you don't like the answers you are receiving from someone, then why ask them a question? Do your own research, do your own footwork, and by all means come back and share your experiences.

I read Shamrocks' response. It may not have been the friendliest response I have ever read. Part I attribute to the argumentative way the original post was phrased. Part I would attribute to the deadly nature of botulism, something to not be taken lightly and treated with the deadly seriousness it merits. Go ahead and take that for granted, take shortcuts or make things up on your own. But don't try to blame the results on someone else.

The local extension office, the USDA and the numerous books on the topic provide volumes of information. On top of that, if you have family traditions and recipes - hard won from practical experience - those are another source.

Regards,
Pat