Need help!! Wind/solar power

[Tayous1]

Hi there I just moved to SW TX in rural beautiful Terrell county. I'm looking buy land down here and I'm looking for some places to buy a wind turbine/solar panels combo to run my home. I'm looking to get 10Kw from this unit I think it should be enough power for the house maybe not I'm not sure that's why I'm here to pick your brains and ask a lot of dumb question. I know nothing of wind or solar power just know I have a lot of it out here. I'm also looking at a back up propane generation just in case something goes wrong. The home is going to be a 4 bedroom mobile home for right now until I can build a house.

Any advice would be a great help to me. Thanks

[jott]

I think the first step will be determining how much power you need. *you say 10KW but that is a rate of power usage, kind of like miles per hr is the rate you are moving not how far you can go.

The units that you need to look at is kilowatt hours. *A quick example is a 100w light bulb on for 10 hours will use 1kWhr (100W * 10hr = 1000Whr or 1 kWh)

So if you want to use a microwave that is rated at 1500w for 6 min you will need 150Whr or .15kWhr worth of energy. *Now if you have a battery that can power the microwave for that time you can take much longer to recharge the battery. So a 50w solar panel in full sun for 3 hrs will produce 150Whr (50w * 3hr =150Whr)

This is a simplified example because I'm not counting on losses. *A quick Google search will find you lots of reading material on how basic systems work. *Many here are happy to answer questions but we can help more if you can give us a better idea what you are looking for.

A good place to start would be for you to get your last electric bill and see how many kWhr you use in a month, *also look at with uses electric in your home and how often you use it, everything, lights , cooking, TV, and whatever else. *Once you know that you can start sizing a system for you. *

[machinemaker]

Just a suggestion, go to the library and read everything you can. knowledge and advice from others will help.
kent

[Tayous1]

I'm trying to find out what the elec bill from my other home is per month right now. The place where I'm at right now will not be a good one to go off of because little elec is being used there as its only myself that lives there and I know it will be a lot more when there are 5 people in the house.

[jott]

sorry I have not had time to add anything, been busy. I guess then the next step is to look at how much it would cost to connect to the grid, that will give you a base line.

Then look at what your energy uses are. How are you going to heat the place? How are you going to cool it? What will you cook on? how will you get hot water?

Gas would be a possibility for most of that but cooling will be an issue. also think about other things like lights, TV, computer. How much are you willing to cut back?

I don't want to discourage you, but it is a very big task if the 5 people want to live like most people do on the grid.

[Anon001]

Tayous,

It sounds like you haven't studied or done any research into alternative energy.... Start by getting books and read. *Don't start by "assuming" that a certain size system may be enough... With alternative engergy you MUST KNOW how much energy you need to produce.

After you start researching and studying, the next thing is to decide what type appliances to use. *A/C is almost definitely out. *Traditional furnaces....out... *traditional refrigerators and freezers are usually not good enough....

I have been 100% off-grid for 11 years as of May 2009. *I can tell you one thing that you can take to the bank. *You can spend $1,000 dollars or you can spend $20,000 on an alternative energy system. *However, if you AND EVERYONE in your family are not conservative by nature or learned to conserve the family will find alternative energy the biggest disappointment and the biggest waste of money.... *You and ALL members of the family must learn to conserve and change habits in order to survive on any size of system that is off-grid. *You can take that to the bank. lol... *I have seen it happen more than once.

You will be replacing all of your incandescant light bulbs with something else. *Anything that uses a direct short to produce heat is too inefficient to use in alternative energy. *You will have to learn to live without a/c or have one huge mega dollar system. *You will have to find an alternative for heat such as wood stove, wood furnace, or solar passive heat. *You won't be cooking on an electric cookstove. *You won't be using the "normal" type of washer and dryer.. You will want something efficient such as a Saber or something and you will learn to hang clothes out to dry....especially since there are 5 of you. *With just one or two, the laundry wouldn't be a big deal.... *You will have to think about your workshop if you have one and how to power it.... a generator?

A lot of thougth has to go into your planning.. You can't just assume that you will take solar and wind and produce 10kw and be good. *People always assume wind is the best way to go..... *Think again. *Test your windspeeds for a full year before spending the money on a wind generator. *A wind generator's rating is based on a 30 mph wind.... how often does your wind blow at a constant 30mph? *If you only have a 10 to15 mph wind 3 days out of the week, how much more power do you have to produce to compensate for the loss in windspeed?

Go online and do a search. *There are "worksheets" out there that you fill out to determine how to size a system for your needs. *It will show you how large a battery bank, how many solar panels, and/or what size wind charger to use. *I would start there. *You will be surprised how much power you average in a week's time with 5 people in a household. *

It can be done. *I'm doing it and have been or almost 11 years with no regrets. *I do fine but when I want to run a power tool or wash a load of clothes, I start the generator and then hang the clothes to dry.

So... start studying, researching, reading everything you can get your hands on about how to be conservative... the entire family has to have their hearts in it or it won't work no matter how big your system is. *Get the worksheets and figure up how much power to produce.

Here's some links that I found doing a google search....

http://www.bigfrogmountain.com/calculators.cfm

http://www.evsolar.com/worksheet.html

(This is my personal favorite and this is where I buy almost all my items from)
http://backwoodssolar.com/ - in the left column under "Reference Material" select "Calculate Power Use" in the drop down menu.

This will give you a place to start.....

Good luck on your road to independence!
PaulNKS

[humbug]

Paul makes some very good points. I have lived in a solar wind home for several years, although I am not currently off grid. It is a lifestyle adjustment....one everyone should make regardless of whether they are off grid or not..some things to consider..

Refrigeration..you will not be using a conventional refrigerator. You will have to make a choice between propane or using a super efficient refrigerator such as a Sunfrost.
Cooking...no electric here, either propane or wood.
Air conditioning..you will not be able to use a air conditioner, however if you live in an area of low humidity a swamp cooler will work.
Will your homestead have a well? Pumping water from a deep well will take a lot of electricity. We pumped water from 245 feet. To take care of water for trees, garden and animals took not only solar, but an old fashioned water pumping windmill with a 5000 gallon storage tank, and occasionally the use of a backup generator. There never was enough water to put a lawn in.
Electronics...electronics take a true sine wave inverter. I don't know if this is an issue anymore, the new inverters are so much more advanced but we had *modified sine wave inverters some of electronics had trouble running on them and when I moved and used these electronics (tv..computer) on grid power, within two months they no longer worked.
Heating..No electric heat..solar design, wood or propane here too. Along with a hot water heater..propane or solar.
There is a lot to consider when you make the choice to go solar/wind. Conservation is key. Another good site with a lot of information is

* *

www.sunelco.com (http://sunelco.com)

Hope this helps.

[Anon001]

Humbug
I know they still say not to use a modified sine wave inverter for electronics, but I don't know how much of that is accurate anymore. I think as far as printers, it depends on the printer. I think they say not to use laser printers with them. but I have my laptop, phone chargers, HP Printer, TV (just gathers dust LOL), and a Bose stereo and have had no trouble... I would recommend checking with the solar/wind/hydro dealer technicians or the manufacturer on specific items. I just use a cheap, cheap, cheap, Black & Decker 200watt inverter that is modified sine wave and so far..... my fingers are still crossed. lol

I hate to hear that you are no longer off grid. I wouldn't go back to any grid if I don't have to.

Thanks for sharing your link. It is one I haven't seen...

PaulNKS

[Tayous1]

generator like a 10kw guardian be worth the money? The home I might be setting up will mostly be gas, stove, heating and maybe hot water I might look in to the solar hot water. I know where I'm at I have to have A/C here is Southwest TX would the generator allow me to use the A/C in the home? Right now my home in IL we don't use much energy there as I know a lot of people where having power bills higher the there mortgage bills are highest bills where in the summer when we where running 7 window A/C and we never had a bill higher then $350.

[Anon001]

generator like a 10kw guardian be worth the money? I have to have A/C here is Southwest TX would the generator allow me to use the A/C in the home? Right now my home in IL we don't use much energy there as I know a lot of people where having power bills higher the there mortgage bills are highest bills where in the summer when we where running 7 window A/C and we never had a bill higher then $350. *

The answer is basically "no." * Generators are not made to run continuous for indefinite periods of time. *You will wear it out really quick... *generally on alternative energy, just realize that a/c is basically not an option unless you want to go with mega bucks for a solar/wind system... Otherwise, you will end up spending a fortune in generators.....

You say you will be in a mobile home until you get your house built.... if you are concerned with a/c that much, then you best build underground.... completely... or if money is no object then you can have a/c with alternative energy...

PaulNKS

[DM]

There are generators that are continous duty, but there are NO generators that are "affordable" to run continous duty!!

Even running one on veg oil, or some other "almost" free oil, you will still have enough hidden cost to make it prohibitive.

DM

[Anon001]

Hi there I just moved to SW TX in rural beautiful Terrell county. I'm looking buy land down here and I'm looking for some places to buy a wind turbine/solar panels combo to run my home. I'm looking to get 10Kw from this unit I think it should be enough power for the house maybe not I'm not sure that's why I'm here to pick your brains and ask a lot of dumb question. I know nothing of wind or solar power just know I have a lot of it out here. I'm also looking at a back up propane generation just in case something goes wrong. The home is going to be a 4 bedroom mobile home for right now until I can build a house.

Any advice would be a great help to me. Thanks


Tayous1,

It looks to me like you are grasping at solutions without knowing what is or is not available. I suggest you talk to a couple dealers/distributors of solar/wind/hydro. Buy a couple books and read them thoroughly BEFORE making any decisions or conclusions.

Alternative energy is great and I have been 100% off-grid since May 1998 and have NO regrets whatsoever and I very very seldom ever need a generator... I occasionally use one for the washer but I also use it as an excuse to have go to town (laundromat). LOL

With that said, I must also say that off-grid is not for everyone. It may or may not be for you. If you are considering going off-grid, you first need to decide what you will live with or without. You need to determine if you are naturally conservative enough or willing to change. You may need to change some of your "wants" or "needs".

The people I use for most of my purchases, I use for several reasons. One is that all their employees are using alternative energy. Their "technicians" are very knowledgeable, helpful, and pleasant. When I was first learning about being off-grid, I knew less than you know. I knew nothing of electricity, batteries, series, parallel, etc. When I would have trouble understanding something I was reading, I would call and they would stay on the phone not only until I said I understood, but until THEY KNEW I understood the answer. Also, I use them because I found them with better pricing on many items.... but even if I had to pay a bit more, it was worth the help and all the time they spent with me on those phone calls. SO.. find a dealer/distributor you like, trust, and feel comfortable with, and start asking questions. Ask them what book or couple of books they recommend you start with and study those books. It is definitely NOT something you can learn overnight.

Good luck to you! I hope you can find a way to be off-grid....... it is worth it.
PaulNKS

[Tayous1]

Now what are some good books to get to read up on this? Also I was looking at geothermal heating and cooling would this type of cooling allow me to be able to run off of wind/solar? Sorry just thought of it today as I was getting off work.

[Anon001]

The couple of books I have I can't find anymore. Contact some of the solar distributors about books for newbies. I am sure there are some good books you can buy through BHM.

Geothermal? I don't know enough about it, but I'm guessing not... I'll have to let someone one else answer that one. But generally, just realize you cannot use a/c on alternative energy unless you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on your system.

My favorite dealer is backwoodssolare.com. They have a catalog that they will send you for free if you are planning to be off grid. It will explain what items you can and cannot use on solar/wind..... By the way, I am not assoiciated with them in any way, other than a customer that has had better customer service from them over anyone else.

PaulNKS

[kmccune]

Why not solar as a backup and dedicate somethings to 100% solar ,use it when you have the juice- the lights going out shouldnt be a total disaster (JUST TRYING TO AVOID THE BOREDOM) anyway Paul how big is your system&what energy saving devices are you using?We have hardly any tax breaks in this great state and your advice about building underground is very sound Tayous a couple of good books about undergound housing"The $50 & up underground house book" by Mike Oehler and another by Louis Wampler" Underground Homes".I hope one day to build an earthbermed home using precast" superior walls"-Kevin

[kmccune]

PS, I forgot Tayous.please excuse me-Anything by Steve Harris-who is a retired Chrysler engineer he can show you how to do solar on the cheap using componets the average person wouldnt think of-Kevin 8)

[Anon001]

Kevin,
My system is very small. *I have only 155 watts of panel and 8 golf cart batteries, a Xantrex C40 controller and a cheap cheap Black & Decker 200 watt inverter. *It does everything I need. *I have a 12v microwave that I have only used one time. *I still prefer the old fahioned cooking. *I am using 12v cold cathode white lights that only draw 3.7watts each. *I heat with wood. *My fridge is propane and I heat my water with propane in the summer and on the woodstove in the winter. *To heat my little house I've only used 1 3/4 cord this year.

I agree with your $50 and up underground house book. *I have it and would love to build one like it, but that may not happen.

[kmccune]

Thats very good,what kind of a house do you have? I do envy your solar system(thats some great ideas-have you tried any LED lights?)Kevin{ One of these days I do hope to have a system like yours-Do check Steve Harris out I think it is the"Solar power handbook" by Steve,couldn't find my copy just now.Anyway he has a lot of neat ideas eg; using slightly damaged solar panels from highway warning signs-A fraction of the cost,but still have plenty of output-Kevin

[Anon001]

Kevin,
Thanks. No reason to envy it. Anyone can do it anywhere(almost anywhere lol). I had thought about LED, but the last couple times I talked to my distributor, he says they still just aren't quite far enough along.

If a person is handy, he could take those "pieces" of panels and build a bigger panel to produce more wattage.... or not. lol Personally, I would prefer to buy mine new because then I get the 20 to 30 year warranty. Mine carry a warranty of 20 years but some go as high as 30 years.

Thanks for the tip on Steve Harris. I may look for the book.

And seriously.... you could star implementing a small system and just add to it as time allows. And... I'm available anytime if you ever have questions or wanna chat about it.

[kmccune]

Cool 8)because we never know when SWHTF,one other thing-can the old glass jar Delco batteries be refurbished?I know the phone company uses huge storage batteries that seems to last forever.
-Kevin =) My daughter added the picture of Andrew McMahon- actually sounds pretty cool.

[Anon001]

Kevin, I don't know if those batteries can be refurbished or not. If you want a big battery that lasts forever, forklift batteries are a good option but pricey.... And who the heck is Andrew McMahon? LOL

I've often wondered what would happen is shtf and lasted long enough and you couldn't get any good batteries... ? I figured you would need to find another way to store energy or else find a way to use solar/wind/hydro direct but have some sort of controller/regulator that would keep from frying 12v items in use...... That is a question for 12vman....

But, I honestly don't think it will ever get that bad.

[kmccune]

Andrew is the lead man for the group"Jacks Mannequin" I know a long time ago you could get the info and supplies to rebuild those old top connector batteries-You ought see those back up batteries the phone company uses(very nice) you know if you had a elevated pond& a water source you could do a mini pumped storage
{,How about it 12Vman,can you rebuild the old Delco Jar batteries?}-Kevin By the way-Rufus is a fine looking friend and I bet he is very intelligent

[Anon001]

Kevin. I googled Andrew after I asked who he was. lol Anyway, have you checked online to see if you could find the supplies to rebuild those?

I don't think I know what you mean by a "mini pumped storage". I have three ponds here with the largest one being between 4 and 5 acres. I have used them for various things but would like to know what a mini pumped storage is.

Yes, Rufus is great. He is 2 1/2 years old and too energetic, but is finally starting to show some "cow sense" and wanting to actually try and work. So, now I have to start channeling that. I also still have my old cowdog who is now blind.

[kmccune]

I'm glad Rufus is such a youngun-hard to lose a beloved friend,just keep the ol' cowhand around as long as you can. Microhydro is actually what I'm refering to. You may have to actually increase your PV capacity a little bit. I don't know what the effeciency is on pumping the water up a hill vs. letting it run back through a turbine, but it is a good low-tech storage battery.Where I live at, we have the largest pump-storage facility in the world, so it's a good low-tech solution for electric storage. As a matter of fact there are some small wind generating facilities that use a small pump-storage for backup, plus you have the water for other uses if you need it. (eg: irrigation, fire fighting, water for sale, *etc.)
-Kevin

[readra21]

I live in WA and we are in the process of getting off the grid this year.
I could not justify 500 a month for the power companies constant increase in price.
In my findings there is one place in particular that might be able to help you with your search.

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/

Great website and even better help, they are in the process of setting up our home, barn, well, and bunker. Great guys to work with.

Take care

[Anon001]

Readra21,
Welcome...... so.. are you having them do the installation, too, or just designing your system? A lot of "homesteaders" can't really afford to have an installer take care of it.

I knew nothing about electricity, AC, DC, or batteries... nothing and I was surprised at how easy it was to install my small system.

[Tegerian]

I saw these wind turbines on Jay Leno's Garage site, they look pretty spiffy and supposedly very low maintenance.

http://www.enviro-energies.com/products.htm

[Anon001]

I saw these wind turbines on Jay Leno's Garage site, they look pretty spiffy and supposedly very low maintenance.

http://www.enviro-energies.com/products.htm


But, people like Jay Leno are the only ones that can afford it! LOL and it is probably overkill for the majority of homesteaders that want to be off-grid. Also, in the majority of the USA, wind is NOT a good option for the primary energy source. Solar or Hydro is best for the primary source with wind strictly as a backup or add-on.
Paul

[12vman]

Yup.. Jay probably got him a new scooter from the endorsement.. LOL

Those Hollywood greenies ain't got a clue. They're just riding the band wagon.. ::)

As for rebuilding the Delco jar batteries..

This was discussed on another forum in depth that I attend with no real resolve. They didn't have much aHr. reserve anyway. Not enough to mess with, IMO. And the fact of finding the proper alloy ("Doped" lead) to make the plates would be a chore. Not to forget the dangers of messing with lead without the proper facilities..

[Tegerian]

But, people like Jay Leno are the only ones that can afford it!

Has anyone here tried the USDA grant ( http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/busp/9006grant.htm ) *route to pay for their systems (solar, wind or other)?

[Anon001]

I think these are just for rural small business including ag producers. But I don't think a typical "homestead" would qualify. I may be wrong, but I think most homesteads are not considered a rural small business and most are not considered ag producers because the typical homestead is concerned with producing for family needs rather than producing on a commercial basis. However, in my situation where the majority of my income comes from a cow-calf operation, then I might qualify. The USDA considers me to be an ag producer. My cow-calf operation was twice the size of the average operator and will be again by the end of next year. I sold off more than half..... but am building it back up.

To make a long story short, just a residence would not qualify... Not only that, I think you would have to prove that you are a "viable" ag producer.

However, some states do have incentives and there may be tax incentives as well. That part ...I no longer keep abreast of it.

[Tegerian]

I was looking at it from a farm standpoint as that is my plan when I retire from the military here in a couple years, I believe you are correct that this likely wouldn't work for a residence but a family farm should be able to apply for this particular grant.

[kmccune]

I agree with the guys, solar panels are almost a sure bet- thanx about the reply on the delcos 12v man-as far as Jay Leno-he reminds me of what Art Bell did in Parumph Nevada to get off the grid(of course maybe Art had to) I know it was very expensive-Kevin

[crafty2002]

You say you are looking for land. If you had to pay twice as much for the land, try to find land with a creek.
It doesn't take nearly as much water or money to produce power as it does wind or solar. Even if you have a slow moving stream and not much fall, water will beat any other way to make your own juice for the cost.

[Steve_L]

I like this thread! Lots of good info.

I have air conditioning and use a generator when we lose power. The way it works, is that I run the generator, and then I jump in the truck, and turn on the air conditioner in the truck while I run around looking for a gas station with power so I can get more gas for the darned generator.
:-)

I don't think generators are the answer.

[WileyCoyote]

LOL at Paul!!! True!

Right about the ag producer too - although I was told in another forum that an "ag producer" according to USDA is someone who can prove at least $1000 yearly income from their farm productions. Seems kind of low, but if you start claiming yourself an ag producer on your income tax you have to start a whole bunch of things like depreciation of farm equipment, possible incorporation, etc just to keep the paperwork straight. And then you set yourself up for inspections, etc. Calling yourself an ag producer just to get solar or even wind tax credits could open up a whole can of worms down the road - or snakes, depending on how hard your local and State government bites.

[Anon001]

Wiley,

You have good points. However, depending on the program, and whether it is state of federal, you may or may not be subject to inspections.

As far as an "ag producer".... I have no clue what defines it by federal or state standards. I know that if someone goes in with 3 acres, they may laugh. Whereas someone with 160+ acres, cattle and hay, they won't question. They also don't always look at revenues for the federal programs.

The point being that it gets really convoluted and complicated at times. For example, some are state initiatives and some are federal but state administered and some are federally administered. I participate in as few as possible.

I am signed up for one program called EQIP which is federal dollars but state administered.

Dang! I guess I'm just ramblin'. sorry.