Industrial Wind Power.......

[AlchemyAcres]

Pennsylvania's largest wind farm, by far, is slated for installation 5 miles south of my place.
Unfortunately, a few area residents have decided to exchange some cash for something that's priceless (our way of life here).
What are you willing to give up to support unsustainable cities?
Are you willing to lose your place in the country (eminent domain) to provide power for the unsustainable? It's happening!!!!
I have mixed emotions...I'm all for alternate energy...but on a small scale..all I ask is that folks think long and hard before agreeing to this.....there is a point of no return.
The countryside will be changed forever!
I'm extremely sour since the hypocrite Kennedy's won't allow this off the coast of their place!!!
Dump on rural America to support the unsustainable!! *::)

What are your thoughts?

There's a wind farm planned adjacent to my place as well.

You don't get something for 'nothing'...there's a price(es) to be paid for everything!!


~Martin

[walls0stone]

I'd rather have Natural gas.

Why dont you go tell Mr McGuire what you think in person? want his office hours?

[AlchemyAcres]

I already have.
And I'm in the process of a local education campaign!


~Martin

[walls0stone]

You went to see Jim Mcguire? I just don't like them becouse they are subsitised.
want to by radio add time for your campain?

I don't worry about loosing this place, I think I'd know somthing buy now. *Natural gas company chopper is overhead every day.

I think they should look at putting in that dump up on the mountain and using the gases to make electric. *the mountain is unusable now any how.

((((((((Hey Leatherneck))))))
what if that fire at the landfill made power?

[AlchemyAcres]

I'd rather have Natural gas.


Money. Money. Money. That's all that matters!
::)

It's all a sell-out!


~Martin

[patriotchick]

In my town we just got the news that we have been selected for a wind farm as well. There is already a fairly large one in Mars Hill Maine, now there are plans to put more around the state.

I am trying to educate myself on the pro's and con's as there is a town meeting scheduled for this wed. that I plan on attending.

Unfortunately I have read some things about "windturbine syndrome" that concern me. Apparently because the turbines are placed east to west they can cause pulsing type shadows that effect some people and there are reports that the decibel levels exceed federal standards for whats acceptable.

Because they are putting them in rural areas with little to no other background noise they are a real concern for people that live near them.

Thats all I know at this point, I just started researching it, but so far I do have some concerns.

[AlchemyAcres]

Do you have broadband?

If you do please watch The Voices of Tug Hill (NY)...or better yet...visit Tug Hill....I'll be there in the next few weeks.

The Voices of Tug Hill, Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZO76z2iBY

The Voices of Tug Hill, Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugmxuYQvjv4

The Voices of Tug Hill, Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgeQjtuwxuE


And Life under a Windplant......

Life Under a Windplant - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNxvkrgoPLo

Life Under a Windplant - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utFV2ukOtU&feature=related

Life Under a Windplant - Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOd5tSZF3A4



~Martin

[walls0stone]

Money. Money. Money. That's all that matters!
::)

It's all a sell-out!


~Martin

how do you figure? *you think you can pull tits forever?
what great business is come'n to our area that will save us? You want your kids to make min wage and loose the farm you have becouse they can't pay the taxes?

the local factories are owned by men in other countries, Adelphia is gone...Mansfield U is in megga debt, I know...let's all go work at Kingdom INC..

natural gas is not evil...it's a product you can sell to an unsubsitised customer. It helps everyone were we live.

Go tell all those contractors and truckdrivers in our area to go back on unemployement. *Tell them all infront of their wives and kids.... Daddy can't run dozer and build pads for Eastern Energy any more becouse people called him a sell out... can't pay the bills and then what????

Those drilling rigs will keep farms open and undeveloped so they can grow food on them.


So you want to purchase radio time in Westeren Pa and voice your ideas? ? ? ?

[AlchemyAcres]

We made it this far without Natural Gas.....we can continue!!!
IT's not a done deal yet anyway!!!
It's a bunch of promises, so far.
We'll see.

I've always survived without the money from natural gas...and will in the future..

I won't lease...in fact...I'll beat them at their own game.....I can keep them at least a short distance form my. place....i know how to beat them at their own game....

Yup....there's a lota things that are more important to this guy than cash!!!
::)




~Martin

[patriotchick]

Martin unfortunately I dont have broadband, but I will try to get to my sisters tomorrow and log on from there so I can watch the videos. In the mean time, since its a little past midnight here in Maine, I am going to do a google search for Tug Hill and see what info I can come up with before I hit the hay. I want to show up at that meeting as informed as I can be. thanks for the links

[AlchemyAcres]

Windmills split towns and families.
"Is it worth destroying families, pitting neighbor against neighbor, father against son?" asks John Yancey, whose family have farmed Tug Hill for generations. "Is it worth destroying a whole way of life?"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26242604/

Is it really worth it?


~Martin :(

[walls0stone]

prommises? whatever..

NOW,

I asked you a question...if your so gusto...If your forming a campaine... I'll sell you radio spots on 2 staions west of you so that you can tell everyone from Gaelton to the other side of McKean and beyond about your idea. not enough? I can get you more radio time around the state....

Martin do you want all those poor people to go with out this knowlage? You gota tell them.... can't do it here..can't do it in wall-mart marking lot... isn't it worth finding a sponcer and telling everyone!...money isn't everything..

[patriotchick]

Martin, your link and the three I just read after a google search echo the same sentiment of the people in Mars Hill, Maine....same complaints and same fighting between people, I agree it may not be worth it, in Mars Hill they were promised property tax relief...one couple who are really upset by the flickering shadows and noise had a whopping savings of $151.00 on their tax bill...again not worth it to them.

This is the proposed plan for my area
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2008/08/15/lincoln-announces-wind-farm-hearing/

[AlchemyAcres]

Industrial Wind and Eminent Domain.........Prattsburgh, NY

http://batr.net/cohoctonwindwatch/2008/04/pressmedia-release-eminent-domain.html

http://www.mpnnow.com/news/x1246329768/Wind-company-sets-Prattsburgh-date


~Martin

[WileyCoyote]

Well, frankly, I am torn and don't have enough information.

Out here we have a LOT of wind, more than I have ever seen anywhere else including the empty desert of NM. Every clear, 'still' day we have at least 10 mph winds, usually more. The third night we spent in ths house we had steady 40 mph out of the North. Thet could cause a lot of damage if the brakes are not properly placed or adjusted on the turbines.

"Noise" seems to affect different people differently. I watched about 20 videos on YouTube - thanks for the links that got me started, Martin! - and there were varying complaints about the noise. I think that the only way to really determine how it would affect a person is to actually go out to one and stand under it, then keep moving further away. Also, as with any machinery, noises increase with age - moving parts wear and make more noises. The question is, is it tolerable? For the past 23 years I lived in between an Interstate corridor and a ralroad track central line. What I might consider tolerable, or even negligible, someone else might not. I do like the endless silence except for the crickets now, though. The 'whooshing' sound would be like the wind anyway, wouldn't it? The "thumps" and "clicks" - does it have to do with not only the configuration but the composition of the land itself, transmitting vibrations?

"Shadow flicker" seems like folks are really reaching for a complaint, though. Clouds cast shadows as they stroll or race by; antthing in the sky leaves a shadow.

The strobe lights seem to be a consideration as well, that I cannot see any determination of, other than the fact that people don't like them. Are they that bright or irritating simply because they are regularly flashing and peoples' eyes are drawn to them? They do not seem that bright, even up close - but again, that is a determination one can't make from a video, only in person.

How does it affect wild animals in the area? Not just bats and birds, as some videos covered, but the movements on the ground of wild creatures? Do the vibrations or noise upset them, change their habits? I have yet to see any discussion on this.)

Some other videos on YouTube talked about the property owners who leased, not sold, their property to the wind turbine people. Out here they want to buy the property outright. I think that is a serious consideration; even though with leasing would come more legal problems, one could control the useage of the property more, methinks.

Personally, I think that wind energy is the cleanest and most renewable energy resource we currently have available. While I agree with Martin that individual power resources are less damaging to the environment, most folks are either too busy or too uneducated to do this for themselves, including the ranchers who live out here. When you work 12 hours a day from the back of a horse, taking care of one's wn tools takes up valuable time - trying to provide power for the operations facility for a thousand-acre ranch is simply not feasible. And until they make electric hybrid tractors that can work from sunup to sundown, diesel is still going to be used. Propane is still a major heating resource because of the ice and snow that often break or shut down the local electricity. So wind energy is simply another option, and won't be the only power resource here for many years, if ever.

My little town is struggling to survive. They don't charge taxes, only the state does. People are moving away from, not to, this area. The town only pays for its water pumps, etc. They think that wind turbines would be the way to go to not only garner some revenue but to power the town independently as well as to sell the output to neighboring towns. They want to put turbines on the ridge that surrounds the town (part of which I own as undeveloped pasture). Being Irish, I don't want to SELL it, but would discuss leasing it so that, as I put my cattle out there, they could graze around the turbines. And it would be ignoble to lease it (or sell it) at a price that would handicap the town; so all I've asked for is my continued use of the property, indemnity from harm, and free electricity. I have been told I could sell my "wind rights" - the air 20+ feet above the property - for $60,000 an acre. But that seems like someone - not the power company! - would eventually pay for that, and the town needs to earn money, not spend it. So I am in discussion right now about t. But I still feel like I need more information. The Ranchers around me would like the cheaper electricity they have been promised as well as the closer and more available output. There is another meeting tonight where we are supposed to get more information. There is also another town about 50 miles away that has put up four turbines and they seem to like it, no complaints. They only have about 1500 people there, widely scattered, there.

So any one that has more information I would love to hear from you, pro and con. The more info we share the better educated we all will be - and the better prepared to fend off anyone who tries to take advantage of us. Emotional gut feelings from either side, pro or con, isn't helpful to the discussion. Facts, figures, and proof are what I need to make a decision here.

[AlchemyAcres]

Patriotchick,

There's also a video on Mars Hill.......

Welcome to Mars Hill (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp31TWPC5tc

Welcome to Mars Hill (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpFLsNiXE0g&feature=related

Welcome to Mars Hill (Part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBPHKWR-wTM&feature=related


~Martin

[WRTN]

I am all for wind energy PROVIDED it IS ALL done via PRIVATE industry AND Eminent Domain is FORBIDDEN under ANY circumstances.

I was just thinking about this very issue the other day. I have seen the T. Boone Pickens TV ads and other proponents pushing wind energy but they don't tell you that it requires huge powerline infrustructure to make it work.

If the public wants it they should pay for it. The public has no problem paying nearly $5 a gallon for gasoline. Neither gas or electricity is a necessity but if you choose to call it that, gas is about as much of a necessity as electicity is. They can pay land owners their asking price for powerline easements or pay the land owner's asking price for their entire property PLUS ALL costs associated with moving, acquiring new property, and associated costs. That would approximate the TRUE cost of wind energy.

If Eminent Domain is such a good thing..........and the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.............then eminent domain should also be used to seize gasoline, oil wells, timber, coal, steel, automobiles, you name it.

How long do you think that would last??????? ::)

This entire theory of "wind rights" is about as silly and stupid as mineral and timber rights are. Unless they are sold and harvested IMMEDIATELY, it does nothing but convolute and place a cloud on the deeds of property owners.

Anyone care to see what a clear cut looks like? Anybody thought about what a parcel of property looks like after it has been mined for coal?

The answer is NOT in making more of limited resources. The problem is over population and their in lies HUGE amounts or reserve CLEAN and EFFICIENT energy. Population reduction IS the answer but it is NOT a pretty one in that the consequences as well as 2nd and 3rd order effects are very serious concerning social securty, health insurance, taxation, and there are huge numbers or other issues not yet touched.........but that in itself is another story and subject.

[Buck]

Not everyone agrees that wind power is "evil" as painted by those
resisting this emerging energy source.

"One community is attempting to prove that clean energy can beat dirty power -- even in the heart of coal country."

"The late John Flynn, an environmentalist raised in West Virginia's Big Coal River Valley, was a farsighted man. In 1995, Flynn met a Catholic sister fighting poverty there. They talked about the abuses that Massey Coal Company's operations had inflicted on the valley. There were the mining jobs denied to local people and an economy on its knees, people forced out of their homes to accommodate mining in hollows, and front porches blanketed by coal dust. Flynn wondered aloud about placing windmills on top of the mountains surrounding them to produce power. Why, he suggested, couldn't an array of windmills replace the giant coal mines that dominated the valley?

What Flynn didn't know was that in a few years Massey would begin the most draconian form of strip mining, known as mountaintop removal, with incredible damage to the environment and communities."

http://www.alternet.org/environment/95535/how_wind_farms_may_really_replace_coal_mining/

[AlchemyAcres]

The lesser of 2 evils sure is a different way to look at it, ay?

How about neither?



~Martin

[MooseToo]

sounds a little like deja vu all over again -

the liberals and eco-freaks invoke every imaginable impediment to prevent petro-companies from bringing known oil reserves on-line -

these same liberals and eco freaks give lip service to "alternate energy" such as wind, solar and hydro and are lobbying to destroy productive dams and denying permits for power transmission lines for wind and solar -

does the word "phoney" seem to fit ?

[MNMOM]

We just found out that the wind farm 8 miles from us has been sold to a company from Germany. Just what will happen with the other wind farms? Are we going to have them all over and then sold out to foreign companies?

[Catalpa]

I believe we have to look at alternative energy sources. Oil just isn't going to last, and using it damages the environment.

With that said, these huge windfarms are NOT the way to go, in my opinion. There's a new windfarm just to my north, and while I've not stopped to listen (and there are locked gates, a person cannot get close) I do find them a blight on the view of the rural countryside, and believe it or not, they are difficult to drive past. The rotating blades moving at angle to the road and at different speeds really messes with my peripheral vision, and at night the strobes flicker off the blades as they turn, making it even worse.

There are crews scurrying around just a few miles from my home, busily erecting even more of these monsters. I will have to pass a couple dozen of them just to take my child to school. Supposedly the farmers are getting money for allowing the turbines on their land, but the placement is horrible - one in particular will be right over the top of three homes.

The way the company approached the development is also a sore point - they advertised heavily, "so good for the environment, so good for your electric bill" etc. So AFTER they get all the leases signed, it's "by the way, the taxpayers have to fund a new transmission line to take all this energy to Detroit". >:(

So, we have to live with the sight and sound of these monsters, yet the power they produce is sent to Detroit. How nice, not only do we have the dumps so the city can get rid of their trash, we can provide their power, too. :P

And don't give me the argument that the energy from the turbines will feed "the grid" and benefit us in the end. That's just so much liberal hokum. Most of the folks are connected to a small local power generator, and anyone connect to Edison just had all the rates go up. IF having these windfarms is such a good idea, how come the liberal democrats never want them where they go for vacation?

It would make so much more SENSE if alternative energy was affordable and available to homeowners. Instead of major tax breaks and subsidies for large corporations seeking only profit, why not give private landowners tax breaks for having solar panels and a small wind turbine? A local school put up three used wind turbines, small ones that don't spoil the view or make a lot of racket, and the school has cut their electrical bill by thousands, easing the budget so they can buy textbooks and pay teachers. Doesn't that make more sense than supporting corporate greed?

[CarolAnn]

I'd rather have a wind farm next door than a nuke plant.

Although I work for an engineering firm that designs electrical hookups for utilities, including to wind farms, I've always thought those big white machines were things of beauty - I don't know why. I'm surprised to hear they are noisy - if they're designed right, there shouldn't be much noise at all. (Noisy parts = wearing parts.) They don't whirl fast - just a slow, synchronized *ballet in the wind.

Good news is, there are new designs coming out all the time. One of the neatest ones I've seen recently was designed to go UNDER water and move with the tides, like a giant piece of seaweed. When the water gets too turbulent, they just lay right down -also just like a piece of seaweed. At least THOSE won't be changing the landscape.

If I had my druthers, people would all shingle their houses with solar panels, have banks of batteries for night and we'd just take down all those big ugly transmission lines and noisy substations (that the company I work for helps to design.) I'd gladly change jobs if it could happen!

[Anne]

I don't live in an area with any wind. Literally, one of the worst in the country. So I don't share your problem from a practical standpoint. That said, when I've been to areas with commercial wind farms, I find them rather beautiful and relaxing to watch. I suppose whether I would want them depends on how close they were to my land and whether I could hear them. Wouldn't mind seeing them at all, and I would like the economic gains they could potentially have for my area.

The newer residential ones are very quiet. Don't know if the noise is getting any better with the commercial ones.

[AlchemyAcres]

I suppose whether I would want them depends on how close they were to my land and whether I could hear them.

The 200 foot tall temporary testing tower is 130 feet from my property line.

Turbines can be located no closer than 5 times the hub height (for a non-participating land owner)...the hub height of these behemoth turbines is about 200 feet....so 1,000 feet setback from my dwelling....that's not very far from a 400 foot tall wind machine.



~Martin

[walls0stone]

Should just drill for oil. I don't beleave the bull about running out in 60 years. It's just a way to drive up the price.

The whole world is one BIG NIMBY!

Anything that's driven by 100% capitalism is fine.

I also got to see 3 Natrual Gas Wells today, the total size was that of a 2 or 3 car garage is area on a 300 acre farm...not bad when you look at the payout.

[CarolAnn]

Holy kamoley, Martin! That IS awfully close to one of those monsters. :o

I might not think they were so pretty . . . in MY back yard!

[AlchemyAcres]

Holy kamoley, Martin! That IS awfully close to one of those monsters. :o

I might not think they were so pretty . . . in MY back yard!


Yup! That sure helps put things in perspective, doesn't it?

Check this out.......

http://www.aweo.org/windsize.html

Those are the smaller ones!!!! Some will be over 80 feet taller!!!

You mentioned wind turbines compared to a nuclear reactor.

I sure wouldn't want a nuclear reactor next door either.....

The reality is...it would take 6,600 1.5 MW behemoth wind turbines spread over thousands and thousands of acres (146,000 acres, GE's recommended spacing for their 1.5 MW turbine....several thousand acres more when you factor in setbacks!) to equal the output from one 2,500 MW nuclear power plant.

The wind farm that'll be as close as 5 miles south of my place will include just 125 behemoth turbines (Pennsylvania's largest wind farm, by far) at a cost of $400 million!!!!



~Martin

[flatwater]

Martin , We have wind turbines in the columbia gorge. I don't live anywhere near them but I have heard that they kill a tremendious amout of birds.
Flatwater

[Anne]

The 200 foot tall temporary testing tower is 130 feet from my property line.

Turbines can be located no closer than 5 times the hub height (for a non-participating land owner)...the hub height of these behemoth turbines is about 200 feet....so 1,000 feet setback from my dwelling....that's not very far from a 400 foot tall wind machine.



~Martin


I don't know the specifics of your situation. But if you are looking at most likely getting screwed, you might want to see what you can do to make the most of it. Trust me when I say that you can either have them stomp their feet and do what they want, or you can try to work something out with them that will minimize the problems. That tact usually works a lot better than the alternative.

Anywhoo. Here is what I would do, if it looked like this was definitely going to happen. Talk to them and suggest that you go to one of these places and measure out how far you have to be from them to no longer have the noise being a problem for you. Then do just that. Add some additional distance for higher wind speeds than on the day you visited and then suggest that if they put the windmills no closer to your building sites (or other sites where you really do need quiet, like a deer stand -- that sort of thing), then you won't oppose it. Get the agreement in writing or on a public transcript if this is the government you are dealing with and get a copy of the transcript, which would not be cheap, and the agreement might be cheaper.

For the most part, people would rather work with you on reasonable terms than fight you, even if the terms are more favorable to you than the law. But if you make them fight you, they will, and they will probably win.

[Deberosa]

I don't know the specifics of your situation. *But if you are looking at most likely getting screwed, you might want to see what you can do to make the most of it. *Trust me when I say that you can either have them stomp their feet and do what they want, or you can try to work something out with them that will minimize the problems. *That tact usually works a lot better than the alternative.

Anywhoo. *Here is what I would do, if it looked like this was definitely going to happen. *Talk to them and suggest that you go to one of these places and measure out how far you have to be from them to no longer have the noise being a problem for you. *Then do just that. *Add some additional distance for higher wind speeds than on the day you visited and then suggest that if they put the windmills no closer to your building sites (or other sites where you really do need quiet, like a deer stand -- that sort of thing), then you won't oppose it. *Get the agreement in writing or on a public transcript if this is the government you are dealing with and get a copy of the transcript, which would not be cheap, and the agreement might be cheaper. *

For the most part, people would rather work with you on reasonable terms than fight you, even if the terms are more favorable to you than the law. *But if you make them fight you, they will, and they will probably win.


It would be really nice if it worked that way but I would pretty much bet that those people making millions off the wind farm could care less if Martin is inconvenienced or not.

I was talking to Kurt about this last night and can't figure out why they need to put them so close to where people live - there are plenty of windy remote sites that would be great for this - putting those monstrosities in people's back yards is crazy!!!! It's all a matter of money and greed.

Kurt read about Colorado - the people there forced the utility to use wind power to generate 10 percent of the power and the utility fought and fought because they thought it was bad. Then they figured out they could make a bunch of money off of it and now they produce 20% ofthe power with wind - if it is profitable now it's all the rage!

Now in PA they want to destroy people's homes to put in more and make even more money. After all it would cost more to put them in remote areas!

Leave it to greed to make a mess of a good idea.

[WileyCoyote]

Just some thoughts from our meeting yesterday.

The Farmer's Union explained a bunch of things to us. There are currently eight "wind farm developers" canvassing our state; one is from Portugal, another one from England (British Petroleum), six from the US. They are buying "wind rights" from Farmers and ranchers who don't know any better... then they sell those wind rights for a hefty profit to oil and gas companies. The FU (yes I know) is encouraging farmers to know their rights under the law.

We have no eminent domain laws here. The State is very weak in opposition to individual rights. They will not and cannot take someone's property for any reason, either for a corporation nor for a government. *(So if all property owners affected do not agree to sell their land for, say, a road, there is no road built.) *

Five wind turbines went up in a town 50 miles from here. They have been up for three years, and are owned and operated by the statewide PSU that is all across the State. They are maintained by the company's employees and are the newer, more silent models. Because we have very good wind here - we are 6th in the nation - the smaller turbines are being scattered around the state. While the towers are owned by the PSU, the leased land payments and the profits from the KWH sold to six dfferent entities (here and in other states) are paid to the landowner.

There is real profit in owning the wind turbines, or owning a piece of them. The seemingly altruistic determinations of Warren Buffet and T Boone - they not only get government subsidies for the construction, purchase, and maintenance of the turbines, but will get a monthly check based on KWH produced. So naturally the more and bigger turbines put up on a plat, the bigger the profits. Since the FedGov determination is to have the US change over to 20% wind power dependency by the year 2030, there are constant changes in both Federal and State legislation to encourage this sort of production. Right now it is like wildcatters over a new oil find - everyone is getting into the act.

The state govenment here is encouraging private, not public or corporate ownership of the wind turbines. Local private people are holding graduated ownership contracts in partnership with corporations - 1% private, 99% corporation, with the sliding scale of change over 10 years, so that by the 10th year, the private entity owns 99% of the turbines, the corporation 1%. *This may be good as any profits start out going mainly to the corporation but end up going to the private corporation - and may be bad because after 10 years the private corporation ends up being fully responsible for maintenance and upkeep on 10 year-old turbines! Corporations get carbon-reduction credits for investing in the wind energy technology, especially in this fashion.

My personal thoughts on carbon reduction credits - just another scam that has corporations paying into a fund that - after being passed thru several hands, all taking a piece - gets put to farmers and ranchers who use certified rotational grazing, wind technology, and till-less farming methods. So Corporations pay farmers to reduce their carbon footprint. Corporations get carbon credits that they can use on their taxes, the middlemen get to make money, and the farmers and ranchers get paid several thousand dollars a year to practice more ecologically correct farming methods! They called it a win-win, but it sounds more like another way to pass money back and forth and pretend that we are doing something good for the environment - at least to the politicians. But this is apparently the way the world is heading... the US is the last to jump on board.

[walls0stone]

I have heard that they kill a tremendious amout of birds.
Flatwater

Cars kill a lot of deer every year, and hay'n equipment kills a lot of critters to....but I'm not giving up my truck or tractor to save the stupid critters that can't evolve.

[Anne]

It would be really nice if it worked that way but I would pretty much bet that those people making millions off the wind farm could care less if Martin is inconvenienced or not.

I was talking to Kurt about this last night and can't figure out why they need to put them so close to where people live - there are plenty of windy remote sites that would be great for this - putting those monstrosities in people's back yards is crazy!!!! *It's all a matter of money and greed. *

Kurt read about Colorado - the people there forced the utility to use wind power to generate 10 percent of the power and the utility fought and fought because they thought it was bad. *Then they figured out they could make a bunch of money off of it and now they produce 20% ofthe power with wind - if it is profitable now it's all the rage!

* Now in PA *they want to destroy people's homes to put in more and make even more money. *After all it would cost more to put them in remote areas!

Leave it to greed to make a mess of a good idea.




They probably don't care if Martin is inconvenienced. However, I represent large companies and very, very wealthy individuals in litigation. For the most part, if someone is going to raise a stink and cause a lot of headaches, it is often to the company's or person's advantage -- cheaper and faster and a better public relations situation -- to work out an amicable solution rather than fight it. But if they have to fight it, they have the money to do it and to put you in a bad place at the end of it.

So it seems to me that if they really want to do something, they will. (Like put it on your next door neighbor's property at your property line.) You can either work out a solution that works best for you and gets you something in return, or you can get stepped on in the process. I'm just making a suggestion that might work for Martin, and then again, it might not.

[walls0stone]

I was talking to Kurt about this last night and can't figure out why they need to put them so close to where people live - there are plenty of windy remote sites that would be great for this - putting those monstrosities in people's back yards is crazy!!!! *It's all a matter of money and greed. *

Leave it to greed to make a mess of a good idea.



Becouse this county has an average house hold income of 30-40 grand a year...that's 2 people working. Income here is so low becouse other projects have been dumped or disscuraged outright..they wanted to put a large landfill on Armenia mountian.. A place were you can't live if you want to grow anything or live on a road that has winter plowing. * but nnnnoooooo we can't have that...

we need to presurve an old strip mine sight that won't grow anything on a mountain were just 2 or 3 people live.

They could have taken the gas created by that trash and used it to make electric..that fight will go on and on forever. The landfill company has tons of money to lease the land from the owners and wait out all the nimbys. *People here will do just about anything to keep away tourists, actual business, and new teck in this county.

[Deberosa]

They probably don't care if Martin is inconvenienced. *However, I represent large companies and very, very wealthy individuals in litigation. *For the most part, if someone is going to raise a stink and cause a lot of headaches, it is often to the company's or person's advantage -- cheaper and faster and a better public relations situation -- to work out an amicable solution rather than fight it. *But if they have to fight it, they have the money to do it and to put you in a bad place at the end of it. *

So it seems to me that if they really want to do something, they will. *(Like put it on your next door neighbor's property at your property line.) *You can either work out a solution that works best for you and gets you something in return, or you can get stepped on in the process. *I'm just making a suggestion that might work for Martin, and then again, it might not. *

Yes, you and I come from different perspectives. Fighting is one thing - but at $250 an hour to the lawyers only they get rich and a lone person has no chance of outlasting the funds of the lawyers for these companies. I could afford maybe say - 2 hours???

I know- I was married to a law clerk - turned divorce attorney. :o Maybe I would have gotten something besides all of the debt from that marriage if I would have fought it. BUt again at $250 an hour vs his free legal resource how long do you think that would last? Only one getting rich would have been the attorneys in the process. So gave him a house and all the equity and all of the "stuff" and I took the debt he ran up.

It all turns out in the end though - turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to me!

There is no fighting the legal system unless you have very deep pockets. At least that's been my experience.

Ha! And I am on call for jury duty this month - do you think they'll put me on a jury? ;D

[Anne]

Yes, you and I come from different perspectives. *Fighting is one thing - but at $250 an hour to the lawyers only they get rich and a lone person has no chance of outlasting the funds of the lawyers for these companies. *I could afford maybe say - 2 hours???

I know- I was married to a law clerk - turned divorce attorney. :o *Maybe I would have gotten something besides all of the debt from that marriage if I would have fought it. *BUt again at $250 an hour vs his free legal resource how long do you think that would last? *Only one getting rich would have been the attorneys in the process. *So gave him a house and all the equity and all of the "stuff" and I took the debt he ran up.

It all turns out in the end though - turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to me! *

There is no fighting the legal system unless you have very deep pockets. *At least that's been my experience.

Ha! *And I am on call for jury duty this month - do you think they'll put me on a jury? * ;D

Fortunately, unlike divorce cases, most other types of cases permit contingency fee payment structures. If such a system were allowed, Martin might be able to find a lawyer to represent him. If not, he can represent himself. He probably wouldn't win in a suit, but he might be able to negotiate something -- a much greater prospect if he approaches them first (before filing anything or raising a ruckus).

And no. You are not likely to be on a jury.

[AlchemyAcres]

17 jumbo wind turbines planned for this tiny township...That sucks!!!!!

I found out today that the ordinance isn't set in stone (yet) and that the final setback from a non-participating landowners dwelling will likely be 5 times the TOTAL turbine height, instead of 5 times the hub height....that's a bit better but still potentially close!!!!
Total applicable setbacks.....
Public road right-of-way....1.5 times the total turbine height of 415 feet.....623'

Occupied building...participating land owner....1.1 times the total turbine height of 415'....457'

Occupied building...non-participating land owner 5 times the total turbine height of 415 feet....2076 feet.

Property line of of a non participating landowner....1.5 times the total turbine height of 415'....623 '

I think the best I can hope for is using the setbacks to my advantage.

Using the setbacks and other info.....I heard a rumor that they are unlikely to place turbines below 1800 feet here....I can get an idea just how close turbines may be.

Check out Google maps pedometer!!!

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/

I also plan to use setbacks to keep natural gas wells atbay....There are setbacks from water wells.....I've got 2 water wells planned along my property line BWAHHAHAHAahahaha!!!!!!!
LOL




~Martin ;)

[Deberosa]

Great strategy Martin!

Good luck!

Can you build an "occupied dwelling" on the very edge of your property?

[MooseToo]

The reality is...it would take 6,600 1.5 MW behemoth wind turbines spread over thousands and thousands of acres (146,000 acres, GE's recommended spacing for their 1.5 MW turbine....several thousand acres more when you factor in setbacks!) to equal the output from one 2,500 MW nuclear power plant.

~Martin

now, THAT'S an enlightening bit of information - something conveniently overlooked by those prone to snap-decisions regarding "alternative energy" - seems the brilliance that surfaced with the ethanol decision might have been an object lesson - but, NO -

[walls0stone]

Just spoke with a man today, long time friend very wise and educated. who owns 40 acres (hayfield) and a well. The well makes him $3,000 ish a month.
(after taxes)

O'yea.... he lives close to Martin and I :)

so I guess some people are making royalty money dispite what some think . *Since most people I know don't see that kind of money in 6 weeks, my vote is gas. ;D

[patriotchick]

Just back from the informational meeting by in my town, it wasnt very informative. I am so mad and so upset that I dont even know what to say to be honest. I live in a town thats claim to fame is the 13 lakes within the towns boundaries, I was told my concern of sound crossing water was not that big of a concern....excuse me?? I live within 1/2 mile of a lake that I have deeded access to- and I can hear a duck fart on a calm night. I can hear people on the other side of the lake talking when conditions are right, and even on loud windy days I can hear the motor boats...but they say no one will be able to hear these, although most of the lakes will be in the shadow of one of these 400 ft turbines...and we are getting 40 of them.
Thanks Martin for all the links you provided, I passed them on, hopefully I can get more town people on board to try to stop this before its too late.

[walls0stone]

I can hear a duck fart on a calm night.
good one! *Now is that a bubbleing sound.... or do that lift out of the water to do that? ? ? *Kidding

[AlchemyAcres]

Can you build an "occupied dwelling" on the very edge of your property?

That's definitely a possibility, I plan(ned) to build a new place in the near future, but wonder now if I should just wait and see what happens.
???

The neighbors (talked to them today) received a packet from the wind company (leasing propaganda) almost 3 months ago and were told they'd hear from them in a few weeks....so far nothing.

I think that the company may be waiting to see what happens with the gooberment tax credits (set to expire at the end of the year) and other socialist stimuli that drive this whole bunch of crap. ::)

We'll see!!

"History hints at the possible long-term damage if the credits expire in December—because it has happened before. In 1999, 2001, and 2003, Congress didn't renew the tax credits, and in each of the following years, wind-power installations fell dramatically, according to the Department of Energy." ::)

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/07/28/congress-blows-hot-and-cold-over-tax-breaks-for-wind-energy.html

~Martin

[jott]

The reality is...it would take 6,600 1.5 MW behemoth wind turbines spread over thousands and thousands of acres (146,000 acres, GE's recommended spacing for their 1.5 MW turbine....several thousand acres more when you factor in setbacks!) to equal the output from one 2,500 MW nuclear power plant.

~Martin



now, THAT'S an enlightening bit of information - something conveniently overlooked by those prone to snap-decisions regarding "alternative energy" - seems the brilliance that surfaced with the ethanol decision might have been an object lesson - but, NO –


Yes thanks for pointing that out, it is something that dos not get talked about much. also to add to it, PA’s total generation capacity is more then 18000MW (just added up some large power plants that I know of) that means it will take over 1,051,200 acres to replace them with wind power. The idea of not needing fossil fuel because of wind power is just not realistic. It may help reduce the need for other new power plants but we don’t have enough space for them to cover base load.

[danville]

I live in Greenbrier County WV. A few years ago Invenergy proposed a "wind farm " here that would put 124 wind turbines that are 260 feet tall with blades 130 feet on a ridge top 23 miles long. I can see that ridgeline from home. I am a NYMBY from the developers point of view. ( NOT IN MY BACKYARD) They are somewhat correct. I don't want those beasts destroying my view. But, I also don't think that the folks living a quiet life here should be the ones who pay the price for others hundreds of miles away exorborant use of resources so they can have a view from their penthouse suite. I am here for the solitude as compared to a big city. If DC, NYC or Baltimore need the power so it's population can lead a throwaway nonrewable lifestyle then I say let them produce their own energy. Put the turbines on the highrises, solar panals on the buildings needing the energy. We aren't using that energy or wasting that energy here. Let the nonsustainable communities take care of their own waste and leave me alone.

[walls0stone]

Green Brier County is so much like Tioga County...and so diffrant. I would never fight something becouse I don't want to loose my view. I understand what your saying since I have lived in that are, and the area were AA is also.

I can't imagine spending a week getting signatures to stop a project, becouse I don't want to be inconvenced or see change. It's a fight based on emotion and perspective.

Windmills are just so subsitised, like ethonal, That they are not self supporting. Other forms of energy are like natural Gas industry, Crude, or what have you.

The other kicker is this, DC and Baltamore are NIMBYS to they don't want high lines over the farms they own. But the people at Dominion would tell you that if somthing dosen't give soon, that whole neck of the woods will be in major trouble.

It's all so intresting how we fight this stuff in the name of NIMBY.... but then in the name of NIMBY, the government turned 100's of acres of historic cane plantion in FL, and turned it into swamp becouse it reminded some NIMBY that slavery once was in this country. It was a business untill they took it from the owners to make a swamp. You can make fuel out of cane can be made into fuel faster than corn.

So if a person is to make a case as to weather or not a war should be waged in oposed or in favor of anything related to capital or business, the only way to win such a fight is to argue in dollars and cents in Debits and credits, rather than somthing you can't physicaly put on paper or hold in your hands.

[DaleK]

My opinion is fairly simple. If you want to control the view, the sound, whatever, on the land surrounding you... buy it. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

[walls0stone]

Hey, I saw the Space Station this morning...it's effecting my view of the sunrise!!! It's effecting my way of life!!!! I want it GONE!

[DavidOH]

Hey Martin,

There are not only the towers, but just how are these thing connected? ???

Won't the electric company be stringing new lines everywhere?

That sure is a monster.
Smart move on the wells. Maybe I need another one. ;D

[AlchemyAcres]

Hoodwinked, bamboozled, and swindled.....
Smile America! You are getting screwed!!!!!
How does it feel??!!!!
Subsidies, tax breaks, accelerated depreciation...etc...etc...etc...
You're paying for the silliness!
It's a joke!!!!!!!


~Martin ::)

[AlchemyAcres]

Hey Martin,

There are not only the towers, but just how are these thing connected? ???

Won't the electric company be stringing new lines everywhere?

That sure is a monster.
Smart move on the wells. Maybe I need another one. ;D

The connections between the turbines are usually underground,,,,
They're most interested in placing them where the infrastructure already exists......like here......and then they'll go from there.


~Martin :)

[johnjmw]

If the Oil crash happens, with out ALL renewable resources being tapped the lights will go out too. I'll live with a lot of Windmills and Solar paneled roofs over the Nuke power or loss of lights anytime. Ok I plan on putting a home sized Wind Generator in after I build my cabin. I really do like that they are having the forethought to go with the underground power lines.

John

[walls0stone]

so how did this little topic end in PA...
well after this *wind farm thing started, the wind farm GuRu came to our farm telling us they wanted to put our place in this string. they offer a pathetic sum for the space they will rent, told us about the 50Ft Right of way they would be taking across our land and the road they would build in that space... that we were not allowed to use. * The papers we were handed said they they would be connected by an OVER HEAD line.

Now, let me make this clear...if they are going to take you over a drum, it's just how it is... unless you want to kill someone. So I just can't stop them... *I would not be upset if I had to look at one of those things, but it's the waste of time, money and actual resorses that make no sence to me.

*Take all that subsity money and just give it to the people here before you spend it on an ineffective wind farm AND take away farm fields and valuable hard wood timber crops. *To hell with the view, don't waste my money. *

And in the end, they lost all the Gov subsity grants*and the whole thing was put in the trash were it belonged. They even sent out notes saying, we are broke, but can we start building and pay you nothing... *well *Yipp Yipp Yahoo no more wind farm.

Point 2, when the wind farms are put up, you could not erect a tower higher than 40 Ft. *Uh a gas Drilling Rig is higher than 40 feet...and Natural Gas, disspite what some greennies want to tell us is NOT subsidised!!! *and this place is loaded up with them.

So what invester would want a wind farm it means no gas rigs on his place? *men who make real money and spend real money are flooding my area. One fellow went into the LOCAL hardwere store and purchaed every single pair of hip boots they had! then asked were he could rent 30 apartments! *My friend's little pizza shop is delivering pies to the drillers on site..sends more pizza to the drillers then local State U! *the real money is in the working men, not just the gas.

40 new Drill rigs just arived in town! I have 4 wells in site of my house! *The answer to the oil problem is Natural Gas! and it pays the people...not the other way around. *:)

[flatwater]

With the way things are now if they could put those wind mills around the white house they would have all the volume of hot air they would need to run the country not to mention the natural gas. But really it will be hard not to sell out to the big money. My greatest respect to you for holding out and trying your hardest to stop them.

[crafty2002]

There is an estimated 50,000 dams already built in the US that could make electricity. On top of that, the old fashioned water wheel can produce roughly two times the electricity that a turbine produces and they are near silent.
Go figure.
Dennis

[crafty2002]

And whay don't they put turbines on top of the tallest buildings in cities where the wind is really whiping. Ever been on a 450 structure working as a welder iron worker in the middle of the winter? I have been nearly blown off I-Beams just for raising my welding shield. I have had to set on my butt straddle a beam and shinny across it because there wasn't any way to walk it.
The top of the red iron, the huge I-Beams at hyco lake on unit 4 are 432' high. Those beams are dang near as wide as a side walk and there has been a many a time I had to drop to my knees and hold on.
If they would put them on buildings like that they would even need to upgrade the transmition lines. The juice would already be where it's needed at.
JMHO
Dennis

[flatwater]

Does Chicago (the windy city ) have any wind turbines

[walls0stone]

actualy most wind turbines will NEVER produce what the markeeting says they will. Needless to say, in many areas of the US wind can not be counted upon. Sure it's realy windy in my nook of the world in Winter, but what do you do when the wind don't blow? Can you see that post...

"sorry I've not been on the Forum this month, no wind"

Any busines that pushes it's self along with only tax money is not worth starting. I never tried to stop them as it was simply a joke. I mean if the Gov of PA wants to take my hill side, he just will...however if they have no money to start the program, I don't need to fight....no one will build or work on a wind farm for free.

And since it takes NO tax money to build a gas well...and the man power that comes in with it, builds local business in our area, like resturants, hotels, and hardwere to name a few... natural gas is going great.

let's build natural gas cars, put the rag heads and brazil out of work and Put that money and profit back into the hands of the American worker in the gas fields. that gas worker could be a young Vet, rather than some terror love'n camel jocky.

[AlchemyAcres]

Thank God! they've backed off a bit.....
Too much opposition in the immediate area.

;D


~Martin

[walls0stone]

What? no...lack of money..... The grant funding was cut. When the bottom went out of the Subsidy tub, the project was canned. They where expanding the project till the money was taken away by the state.

Remember, it's all about money.

[AlchemyAcres]

Which project are you refering to?



~Martin

[walls0stone]

The entire wind farm subsidy was taken out of the budget. YOUR string was extended all the way over here. Those fellas were here last Fall. Didn't you people get a letter about not being able to pay?
Didn't you hear Eddy talk about it on the radio last week?
Didn't you hear the official rant about money that would not go to some of the communities were the wind mills were going? Indefinite hold of the job had nothing to do with people and everything to do with the funding that was cut from the budgets of Pa and NY.

all wind farms are about money.

[walls0stone]

A few local land owners stopped the entire project state wide? wow!

Did you mail out all those letters about being out of money?

[AlchemyAcres]

A few local land owners stopped the entire project state wide? wow!

Did you mail out all those letters about being out of money?


::)


We're obviously not on the same page here!


~Martin

[Michael32170]

Unfortunately, cities will continue to grow. They out number you. Guess what's going to eventually happen?

[AlchemyAcres]

I don't need to guess!
This Country is well on its way to being totally trashed!



~Martin

[AlchemyAcres]

Greed Power is on the horizon!
Oops, I mean Green Power! LOL ;)
I can see it from my place!! :eek:

They've started hauling in the monster turbines for Pennsylvania's largest wind farm!

Thrills!!

~Martin

[AlchemyAcres]

The first turbine is up!

Pennsylvania's largest wind farm, a taxpayer supported scam, is becoming an unfortunate reality, destined to power and enlighten mostly parasitic citiots! :sarcastic:

Forget the supposedly inalienable "Pursuit of Happiness", that's dead, all that really matters now is the "Pursuit of politically correct 'green' energy." and "living at the expense of others!!!!".

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness has become...
Strife, Liberal Glee and the Pursuit of Laziness!

You can quote me on that! LOL :D

http://www.thedailyreview.com/news/first_turbine_up_on_armenia_mountain

~Martin

[AlchemyAcres]

DON'T stand next to one of those stupid things!!!! :eek:

Reported today 12/27/09................

Turbine falls at Fenner Wind Farm!!

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/story/Turbine-falls-at-Fenner-wind-farm/Rbs42QIY8EyvGn-inmnl5g.cspx


~Martin :rolleyes:

[Bones]

Any update on what cause the failure. I looked at several sites that had pictures but none really showed the base so I could not tell if it was a concrete footing problem or the steel itself that snapped.

[AlchemyAcres]

Any update on what cause the failure. I looked at several sites that had pictures but none really showed the base so I could not tell if it was a concrete footing problem or the steel itself that snapped.

Foundation failure.
In pic #3 at the link I posted it shows the tower still firmly bolted to the upset foundation.



~Martin

[AlchemyAcres]

Good news!!!!

The wind test tower is coming down and there WON'T be any behemoth industrial wind turbines coming to the immediate 'neighborhood'!!!!

Not enough neighbor's will to 'sell-out' for all the hype!!!

~Martin :D

[SPIKE]

Congratulations!!!!!

SPIKE

[recoilless_57mm]

Amen to the dismantling of wind power in your area. In this area they are still tube thumping about it. The only ones that win are the utilities with their rate raises. The two main manufacturers of the turbines, Deere & GE.

OT