Windmill or fuel generator or both

[Anne]

Hello all. In theory, I am buying a mini-farm in the next few weeks. I say "in theory," because I am awaiting some contractor bids for major work needing to be done that I don't trust myself with just yet, and at least one of them needs to come in under a certain number for this to truly be a go.

Anyway, it is, obviously in the country, and it is in an area where when the power goes down in the Winter, it's going down for a few days at least. The heat will not be dependent on a blower or otherwise require electricity, but the rest of the house is electric, including the stove and hot water. I won't expect a lot, but I would like to get a Skystream windmill. (My neighbor has one, and I've had a severe case of covet ever since.) However, I'm not sure it would be reliable enough to produce the electric needed during outages, if I'm conserving electricity -- avoiding television and computer use.

What do you guys think? Am I better off just getting a small diesel generator, or can I get by with the windmill alone? Or should I get both? It's more money than I would like to spend, but I will do it if that works best.

On an unrelated note, if any of you have any thoughts on small tractors for keeping 30ish acres tidy, I'd love to hear them. There are cattle there now keeping it pretty trimmed, I plan for goats, but it will need some periodic work and the land that isn't pasture will need cutting and clearing sometimes. And I really don't want to spend a lot on this.

[kawalekm]

Hi Anne
You can forget about powering either the stove or the water heater with the Skystream. Its rated output is only 1.9Kwatts and your water heater probably uses at least two 2.0kwatt elements. Dido for the stove. You just about have to forget about alternative energy completely if you what electrically powered major appliances!

Here's my opinion on what you have to do to have a viable system. If you have wood heat, and switch to propane powered appliances, you can use the Skystream to charge batteries to provide the power for lights, electronics, and small kitchen appliances like microwaves and toasters. If you get a grid-tie system, your power produced by the Skystream will get credited to your account, but I would guess if you keep the electric appliances you'll never break even and will still always have an electrical bill.

If you go with the grid-tie system, your needs for a generator will be minimal, and only if grid power goes down. With an alternative system, you'll have to have a generator to fill in the lulls and also to top off the batteries occasionally.
Michael

[Anne]

Thanks. I knew I would need to stay on the grid, and the windmill would be grid tie. Just wondered whether it would be enough standing alone for when the grid goes down. Sounds like not, unless I plan to cook on the outside grill and take cold baths -- fine for when it's down two days, but not a week. I have my limits. :)

[Clair_Schwan]

Anne:

In general, anything that is a heater (stove, space heater, water heater) can't be run on a wind generator. There is just too much power demand.

Even if you get a large wind generator (which costs plenty), you'd have to be in high winds in order to generate what you would need to power heating loads, and those high winds are infrequent.

Your plan for grid tie makes sense. This cuts down on maintenance and upkeep since you won't have batteries to mess with. The wind generator does require maintenance however, because it is mechanical in nature and lives in a harsh environment.

Good luck with your land purchase,

Clair

[jott]

The problem with grid tie is if you have the grid unless you are getting some kind of grant or other special green power deal you will never make a return on investment. Power off the grid is cheap. And with most grid tie they are set up so if the grid is down so is your system so there is no chance of you back feeding the power line and killing a line worker trying to fix it.

[flatwater]

What I did with my generater was plug it in to my welder outlet in the shop , shut off my box at the house then run the 220 backwards into the house. This way everything worked. We had to plan well because I didn't run the gen.constantly. I hooked the refrigerater up to my little honda gen. seperatly because it ran more.
Flatwater

[jott]

Flat
It sounds like you know what you are doing so I’m mostly pointing this out for other readers. Your method of connecting an emergency generator is extremely dangerous and in violation of many codes. To start, to make a plug go into your welder outlet you have to energize the male end of the plug. That means if the gen is started without it plugged in you have uncovered metal prongs energized just waiting for someone to touch them, or for them to short out on something. Also you must manually turn off the main breaker in your breaker panel. Not doing this can lead to back feeding the utility grid making a very hazardous condition for any lineman working on the lines trying to restore power. Linemen have died due to improperly connected generators. If you do everything in the right order nothing bad will happen but we all make mistakes, or what about the night when you are not around and some other family member tries to start up the generator.

I hope no one reading this forum thinks connecting their generator is as easy as getting a 220V plug wiring it backwards and plugging it in. the safe way to do it is with a transfer switch so you can not possibly be connected to the gen and grid at the same time.

[Anne]

My plan now is to buy an automatic standby generator and have it professionally installed.

I am hopeful that my state will have some tax breaks for the windmill in a few years that will make the grid-tie windmill make sense.

[Catalpa]

I hear what you're saying, jott, but I'm with flat on this one. It's really quite easy to back feed the generator through the panel when the grid goes down. I do it all the time, using the outlet for my dryer. A person using common sense and reasonable precautions shouldn't have any problem with it. I make darn sure that the main breaker is off, and then I also turn off all the breakers. I hook up the generator to the dryer outlet, then turn on the breaker for the dryer circut. That energizes my panel and then I just turn on the breakers I need for the well pump, freezer, furnace, etc. When the generator runs out of gas, I always turn everything off before I refill it, then go through the same process again. Periodically I shut everythnig down, disconnect the generator, and turn the main back on to see if the grid is up yet.

One has to be very, very careful, but it's really not a big deal. The most important thing is to never turn the main back on while the generator is hooked up; otherwise you risk energizing the lines of the grid and injuring a line worker, and that would be awful.

I'm envious, Anne, I would love to have an automatic generator so I'm not out there in the storm refilling mine all the time. Enjoy the security! And yeah, I wish my state would give tax breaks or other incentives for individual homeowners to go alternative.

Cat

[jott]

I know it can be done easily, and I’m not going to say that I have never connected a gen by doing what was just said. But I’m still pointing out that it is not the code compliant way to do it. The national electric code is not written just because someone thinks it is a good idea, the NFPA investigates accidents and if they find unsafe conditions in common practice they rewrite the code. Your choice to not follow the code means you are taking a lot of liability if you do ever make a mistake.

I know it s a common practice to back feed a panel from a gen, I’m just pointing out that it should not be done by someone that dose not have a good working knowledge of electricity and an understanding of the risks they are taking if they make a mistake.

Again, my warning is not so much for the people doing this and have an understanding, it is mostly for someone that is reading this forum looking for information and not knowing any other way.