Revelations and Pre-Tribulation vs Post-Tribulatio

[RangerRick]

For those of us that are born again Bible believing Christians this is a topic of considerable importance especially when viewed through the eyes of a prepper. During most of my younger days I had considered myself as a pre-trib Christian because that’s what the pastor taught. Of course, I’ve never been real good about taking others ideas to heart until I do my own research and I of course make that recommendation to others as well. Probably one of the reasons I hold David Wilkerson ("Cross And The Switchblade") to such high esteem. He sets his own course and tells other big time preachers how it is not how they'd like it to be. Consequently, he isn't invited to alot of rallys anymore. I only know of 2-3 scriptures that “may” support the pre-trib viewpoint but many many that support that of the post-trib view. I thought it would be interesting to hear from other Christians on this topic and see if ya’ll have some differing scriptures that I haven’t considered. I don’t know if this will be of interest to others but I enjoy it and it has enough twists to make my old brain work hard. So, if there is an interest I thought we could cover the where/what/when/why/how of the tribulation. I hope it will work because of the difficulty of the topic and the online platform but it should be interesting nonetheless. Please understand, I make no claims of Bible scholarship, nor have all the answers and only express scripture, as I understand it. I’m but a sinner saved by Grace and those that know me know I’m unworthy by any measure but God’s.


Where will we/they be taken?

Pre-trib. Many believe that the following relates to the rapture. Luke 17:34-37 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left. Where, Lord? They asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather”.

These people will be taken to the place of corpses and carcasses – where the vultures gather, to the land of the dead. Clearly, scripture isn’t talking about Christians being caught up in the air to meet Jesus. I think this is speaking of a coming judgment, just as the one of the flood in Matthew 24:40-41, just the reverse of the rapture.

Post-trib. The first resurrection – The rapture of the church

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to “MEET” the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, the dead shall rise first – thus we have a mass resurrection of the dead. To my understanding it would be impossible for this resurrection to be part of a rapture to take place at the beginning of the tribulation because

Revelation 20:1-6 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. 4And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Verse 4 has some Christians coming to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Verse 5 says this is the FIRST resurrection. Consequently, there couldn’t be a resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation or this one in Revelation 20 wouldn’t be the FIRST.

Rick

[gardenfay]

RangerRick:
I think this is a very good subject. Have to admit that I was raised to believe that we would be raptured before the real bad stuff happens and will readily admit that I sure Want to believe that is the way God will do it. I hope you get a lot of good imput and will certainly be watching this discussion.

[RangerRick]

What is the rapture of the Church?

Rapture – not in the Bible you say and I’d agree with you. It’s just a term some old old theologians coined as a label to identify an event that will take place in the future when Christians will be “caught up” in the air to meet Christ. Of course, those Christians that have previously died (the dead in Christ) will make the trip first and then those still living Christians will be “caught up.”

So, back to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul writes “For the Lord Himself will desend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

Therefore, to my understanding the Rapture of the Church is the event whereby all Christians will physically leave this planet and meet Jesus in the sky.

Rick

[bookwormom]

the church I go to seems to believe that they will not have to go through the tribulation because they will be raptured away.
I am finding out all kinds of surprising things folks believe that I had never heard of.
I started a thread about ministers wanting the USA to attack Iran in order to sort of force Jesus to return.

Interesting post RR.

[RangerRick]

Yep, mine too and that's what the pastor preaches, however I choose to read my Bible and not take someone elses word for Holy Script. I find the scriptures do no agree with that viewpoint. Don't worry, be happy and keep those tithes a coming. While I don't, I am and I do, I also base my life and future as well as that of my family on God's word not Pastor Jim's. I recommend that to all.

I'm reminded of the story of a man that was wading through the burning fires and horrors of hell, lifting up by the hair each person he came to and looking them in the eye. When asked by someone why he was doing this he replied, "I'm looking for that preacher that told me I was OK".

Rick

[Sebastian_Haff]

I am reminded of Jesus Christ, the only son of God who hung out with sinners. He healed the sick, helped the poor among other things.

The book of Revelation has been disected by theologians for over a thousand years, seems like some people think they have the answer. But you see the book of Revelation was written by John who had been sent in isolation to a Island. Christians were being persecuted by the Romans and well they all wanted Christ to return soon. It did not happen. There are alot of things that have to take place before Jesus returns to earth to Judge the living and the dead.

[gardenfay]

I like that story about hell and agree with you. More and more I try to base everything on what I believe the Bible says. I am trying to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" and I praise the Lord that these sites are available for discussions like this.
So, Rick, I have a comment based on your first post of this thread. I think I heard something about that recently. But I don't know if I can explain it exactly right - don't have much time now. But I will try and will get back on here later today and explain better if anyone has posted any questions.
okay , here goes.
What if the dead in Christ described in the verse about the rapture is the souls or spirits of Christians only? What if the first resurrection is an actual resurrection of the bodies, maybe undergoing transformation to our eternal bodies as they are resurrected?

[WileyCoyote]

I wish someone would explain this to me in simple words.

The whole "rapture" thing confuses me. I was raised catholic, switched to mormon, was very active and enthusiastic - choir, sunday school teacher, etc - and then got a serious dose of 'church -hurt' where I refused to stay married to a highly placed member of the church because he was abusive - and the church kicked me out. In all of those 20 years of experiences, I never heard of the "rapture". Now suddenly it is gospel, and everyone believes in it and some are counting on being swept up - even out of their cars while driving! - before the Great War takes place.

It was always my understanding that we were the warriors, trained to be here to fight the final incursion of evil and if necessary die - but dying was not supposed to be what we sought after! We would not be taken up until after the war was won and 'the earth will appear as a garden place'. Then those of us who were honest and true warriors and not fence sitters would be exalted, transformed, right along with and at the same time as the prophets of old.

Please spell this out for me - slowly - as I simply am not getting it. No warriors? We're gonna get swept up and not help Jesus in the final battle against Satan? We're gonna get rewarded for being good people before the final battle begins? Hunh? HELP!!!!

[RangerRick]

What if the dead in Christ described in the verse about the rapture is the souls or spirits of Christians only? *What if the first resurrection is an actual resurrection of the bodies, maybe undergoing transformation to our eternal bodies as they are resurrected?

The dead in Christ are in fact Christians. The flesh cannot inherent heaven. 1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed. This takes place at the seventh and last trumpet sounding. Are graves opened and rot and ash removed - I don't know but I don't see that it matters because we are immediately raptured and receive our new, supernatural bodies outfitted for war against Satan.

Rick

[gardenfay]

Hi WC: I'm sure others will answer you also; but here are some thoughts. . . First, in my opinion, your final paragraph is what this thread is about. Will we be here in some of the final world events - like battles; or will we not.
Second, discussions about the rapture have been around a long time; guess they just don't discuss them in catholic or mormon groups. But do they discuss personal salvation thru Jesus Christ our Lord? That is the most important issue.

[RangerRick]

WC, I'll try to cover some of your questions as we progress. I'd suggest you get an easy to understand New International Version Bible and read Revelations 1-19 chapters to give you a basis of understanding which will help put this in perspective.
:)

Rick

[gardenfay]

Hi Rick:
you must be on now. Yes, I understand that the dead in Christ are Christians. What I'm trying to say is that maybe the first resurrection is called the first resurrection because the rapture doesn't involve our bodies, just our souls? You see what I mean? It could still be called the first resurrection in spite of the rapture if by resurrection they mean actual bodies resurrected and so the rapture; by their definition wouldn;'t be a resurrection.

[RangerRick]

So, when will it happen and why is it so crucial?

It is so crucial because it will literally affect almost every decision you make: Where will you live, what skills you should develop, the vocation you follow, how hard you seek after God, how righteously you try to live, and on and on.

During the 7 year tribulation there will be wars and famine to such magnitude that 100% of your salary will be required in order to eat. Therefore, if a Christian actually believed this he/she might be expected to make preparations accordingly and if you don’t why not just live life with no eye to tomorrow? Revelations also says that we Christians won’t be able to buy and sell in the market place of the day, again, preparing to be totally self-supporting with skills accordingly and a network to barter. Revelations also says Christians will suffer terrible persecution. If so, what to do regarding preparations?

These are all critical points I think that lead me to the crucial aspect of “When.” Many preachers subscribe to the popular view of pre-tribulation whereby Christians are taken out of this world before all the bad things happen. Nobody wants to hear bad news right and just think of all those resources that the “church” wouldn’t have access to? Don’t worry, be happy. Surly God wouldn’t allow us to go through bad times? Lets not think about slavery in Egypt or Persia or the Great Flood or famines or Nazis or any number of things that Gods children have suffered through. What makes our generation so special?

1 Thessalonians 5:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, (Christians) will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to “MEET” the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

"At the end of the tribulation," Verse 16 says Jesus will come down from heaven and verse 17 says we will be caught up (go up). Some believe Jesus comes half way and then takes us all back to heaven for seven years – to do what I don’t know and then we return and do battle. Why come half way just to go back to heaven, we gonna get lost, He just needs to streach his legs? As I understand this, as Jesus is coming down to Earth we "MEET" Him in the air on his way to Earth so this “rapture” is of a very short duration. I don’t think He will come half way to Earth just to return to heaven and immediately return to Earth to do battle with Satan. In this rapture Jesus is gathering his Army Of The Lord for an immediate battle and we are transformed with our new heavenly bodies.

Matthew 24:1-3 says, And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2And He answered and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” 3And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, say, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

So, the “when” is as scripture says “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved” in Matthew 24:13 this is in fact the end of this current (second) age and the new millennial age (third) begins. Scripturally, the first age ended with Jesus' death.

That’s putting it real blunt I’d say, they know it’s gonna happen and they want to be ready and not because they think they’ll miss His coming.

Rick

[gardenfay]

I totally agree with the first part of what you said on this last post about why pre- or post trib. is important. What I believe is that we should be prepared for trouble, in case post- trib. is what is true. I do not think a person needs to get overly scared because we will not be in this alone. I am reminded of a few of the miracles God performed for Corrie tenBoom in concentration camp just so she and others could survive the ordeal. I think we need to pray more and more for guidance on what preparations we should be making. The bottom line is that pre or post, there is no way we can know. But I must admit; it makes me feel good that I do already feel somewhat prepared for the idea of not being able to buy or sell, persecution, etc. I spoke to a fellow Christian at the post office today and he was worrying about the same type thing; he says that Bush and Cheney are building basically work camps for us now. Without even thinking, i said, well i won't be working in one.
he said yes you will
i said no, and he said then where will you be?
i said well if the one world religion keep progressing the way it is; they will probably also ask me to renounce Christ. Since I won't they will put a bullet in my head; so no i won't be in their work camp. haha
After I thought about it, i probably answered that way kinda like the pre-trib answer; i don't want to wind up in a work camp or imprisoned for someother reason; so i automatically answer no.
But the truth is, if we prepare thru prayer, praise (so important to me more and more to acknowledge that He is in control) and asking for guidance. I believe the rest will fall into place.
If we feel led to do or learn certain things in preparation, I have no problem with that. He may guide me to have a different preparations list than He guides you to have.

[RangerRick]

Actually, the time when we will be required to receive Satan's irrevocable mark is just into the second half of the tribulation, after the anti-christ is mortally wounded by sword and raised again to life. *Actually there are some that believe that the rapture won't happen until the beginning of the second half of the tribulation. *It can get twisty so quite time reading is the trick I think.

Rick

[gardenfay]

Sorry, you lost me on that last sentence.

[WileyCoyote]

Thanks, but I still don't understand why all of this foreknowing or not-foreknowing is so important. To me (and don't take this wrong) it sounds not so much like divination but trying to guess the will of God. And that I have NEVER been able to figure out. I know what He's said, and what he expects, but not what ultimate ends or means to those ends he has in store.

I get the Four Horsemen, I get the wars and rumors of wars. I even get the Anti-Christ (I think). But pre and post tribulation? Please don't think I'm being rude or flippant here - but why would it matter? Do you really think that they can or will hunt us all down and demand that we declare against Christ - would they have enough minions to cover all of the outbacks and farmsteads of the world to do so? Or to herd us all into work camps?

Would the people as a whole really be so unremittingly evil - or wouldn't there be a large group who would rebel or become revolted or abandon the project with which they were tasked and join us in the hinterlands?

I always thought that we were simply to survive and wait until we were called to fight, learning and growing and gathering together those of like spirits (temporally speaking) to avoid the evil minions until it was time to be called up to fight. Then after it was over, we would be called up to our reward, outside of our temporal bodies.

[RangerRick]

Sorry, you lost me on that last sentence.

Sorry, I just ment that it can get convoluted.

Rick

[RangerRick]

Meeting the Lord in the air?

I talked earlier about MEETing the Lord in the air and to some it might be a new idea. *After a bit of digging in scripture I learned that this meeting in the air is just what the word means as you can find in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. *The Greek word for meet is “apantesis” and only used in three places in the New Testament with all the same meaning. *

In the second case in Matthew 25:6 Jesus uses it to describe the meeting of the five virgins and the bridegroom. *The bridegroom comes, meets the virgins, and continues on to the wedding feast. *He didn’t go back home or take a break on the side of the road but continues toward his destination proceeding forward. *Thus joining this parable with the second coming, and ending this age.

Again and in the third instance in Acts 28:15 Paul is traveling to Rome to visit Christians. *These folks get advance word of his arrival and came to meet him on the road he was on. *Then they all continued with Paul on “his journey.”

So, based on the only 3 instances of the use of this word I would have a hard time believing that the word “meet” has any other scriptural meaning in context than found here which goes one step farther to substantiate my belief that at the seventh trumpet when Jesus returns for His saints we are “caught up” into the air in resurrection and rapture to “meet” Jesus, receive our heavenly bodies and immediately return with Him as He journeys to earth for the destruction of Satan and his demons. *

Post-trib - *no return to heaven to wait out the 7 years of tribulation. *Semper Paratus - Always Ready.

:)

Rick

[RangerRick]

Wiley Coyote

God gave us His Word and Plan in the form of the Bible so we would know how to conduct our lives. *We are simply through study learning what God's plan is and trying to live our lives accordingly. *I suppose if we had never read with understanding John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, we could be content in damnation. *I'd rather read and find out things for myself and maybe dodge a few of those little bumps in the road.

The ultimate ends and means I'm afraid is beyond the scope of my post-trib study. *While I do look to the future in Christ, I've never really tried to get into that "Thousand Year Reign of the New Millennium" and then beyond, "The New Earth". *That's very heady stuff and honestly the available info is sketchy.

;D

I tried to express the importance of being ready regarding pre and post-trib in an earlier post. *Basically, it boils down to being prepared.

1. *Salvation-wise. *Don't leave earth without it. *If there is a "surprise surprise surprise" pre-tribulation and you're not spiritually "ready" you just missed the boat and as a non-Christian you literally won't have a friend in the world. *Your left behind in a very miserable world possibly without your family and loved ones and a whole lot of not so happy people getting ready for World War III then plagues, floods, fire, death, destruction, nasty little demons that bite ya and make ya terribly sick for months and months, then it gets worse. *If ya live through that you get the really bad stuff of the 7 trumpet seals as all manner of demons are released on what's left of mankind.

2. *Same as above but as a Christian you are sealed by God for a time against some things. *If you prepare *before hand you and yours have a better chance of living through the most monumental events in history which would make everything else pale in comparrison.

I think, for the most part that is what "we" here at BWH are really all about. *Persevering. *Preparing for difficult days ahead and if we are taken early, those we leave behind will be better prepared physically, financially and spiritually if we know Jesus Christ as out Lord and Savior, for what lies ahead. *So, when we all gather round the great white throne we'll be content with knowing that we did our best for the Kingdom of God.

Man has always asked the great question of why are we here and this is the answer, this is our purpose in life. *We are chartered through the Gospel to go tell others the good news of Jesus Christ. *This period is Satan's last hurrah and just who do you think is going to be on his public enemies list? *Me, I look forward to the fight cause I know who wins.

;D

Rick

[bookwormom]

quote by WC
I get the Four Horsemen, I get the wars and rumors of wars. I even get the Anti-Christ (I think). But pre and post tribulation? Please don't think I'm being rude or flippant here - but why would it matter? Do you really think that they can or will hunt us all down and demand that we declare against Christ - would they have enough minions to cover all of the outbacks and farmsteads of the world to do so? Or to herd us all into work camps?

I get the Four Horsemen, I get the wars and rumors of wars. I even get the Anti-Christ (I think). But pre and post tribulation? Please don't think I'm being rude or flippant here - but why would it matter? Do you really think that they can or will hunt us all down and demand that we declare against Christ - would they have enough minions to cover all of the outbacks and farmsteads of the world to do so? Or to herd us all into work camps?


we have looked at a lot of Rev. there are a few important scriptures there that among others tell us basically what this is all about. Look at the key message that the seven churches are given, seven times, each hears the same thing.

Ephesus,
Rev.2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life

Smyrna,
Rev.2:11 He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death

Pergamos,
Rev.2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden Manna

Thyatira,
Rev.2:25 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Sardis
Rev.3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life

Philadelphia
Rev.312 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God

Laodicea,
Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne.

something interesting for Philadelphia
Rev.3:10 because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Thyatira is promised something unusual,
Rev.2:28
and I will give him the morning star.
As far as I know that is Venus.

Ihave to hurry off now, someplace it says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and evil spirits in high places, I'll look it up when I get home or someone can do it. I know I am paraphrasing it badly.

[elh]

I always thought that we were simply to survive and wait until we were called to fight, learning and growing and gathering together those of like spirits (temporally speaking) to avoid the evil minions until it was time to be called up to fight. Then after it was over, we would be called up to our reward, outside of our temporal bodies.

This also is what i belive.

[RangerRick]

The final seven trumpets

Revelations 5 talks about a scroll that is sealed with seven seals. There is great sadness because none can be found worthy to open this scroll. Jesus Christ the Lamb of God being the only one worthy takes the scroll and there is rejoicing in heaven.

In ancient days it was routine for people to use scrolls as a means of written communication to high officials. The scroll would be rolled up and sealed so as to keep prying eyes at bay. The writer would write a note to the official’s secretary to explain any special instructions and this note would be attached to the scroll and sealed to the primary communication. The writer might also write a note to the gatekeeper so his messenger will be directed post haste to the appropriate location and that note scrolled around the communication and sealed yet again. When the appropriate (worthy) person was encountered the first seal would be broken and read and those instructions followed directing the messenger to the secretary who would open the next seal, read his instructions and finally deliver the communication to the worthy official who would open the last seal for the actual message and take appropriate action.

Revelations 6 deals with the opening of the first six seals. These six seals are dealt with in a manner of a few scriptures each, however the conclusions of each were indeed horrible. The seventh seal is in a category all its own. It in its self is very complicated and several chapters of Revelations are dedicated to the seventh seal.

Revelations 8:1-6. Here we find that the seventh seal is actually made up of the sounding of seven trumpets. These trumpet calls are sounded in sequence and each ushers in a different calamity. The first four trumpet calls are found in Revelations 8, the fifth and sixth in Chapter 9 and finally the seventh, the last trumpet call is sounded in Chapter 10. Each of these calls seem to become more and more important. One through four are only a verse or two in length, fifth and sixth each take half a chapter and the last trumpet call takes two chapters in explanation.

When the first six trumpets sounded terrible things happened on earth like a hail of fire and blood, burning mountains thrown into the sea, a third of mankind killed by plagues and battles and so on and so on. When the seventh trumpet is sounded something completely different takes place.

Revelation 11:15-19 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet and there were loud voices in heaven which said: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ and he will reign for ever and ever. 16And the twenty-four elders who were seated on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18The nations were angry and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great – and for destroying those who destroy the earth. 19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

In sumation, Jesus begins to reign; the time of judgement of the dead is at hand; as well as the rewards to Christians; the wicked will be destroyed; and the Ark of the Covenant is brought to God's temple.

An all of this to bring you back to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And of course we all know that we can't be "taken up/raptured" until the dead in Christ rise first, with the last trumpet call of God.

So, if you thought you would be raptured before the tribulation ya might want to think again.

Rick

[RangerRick]

Well, I'd hoped to get a little more discussion going from this topic but understanding it's no easy nut to crack and it's all kinda Greek anyway. I did enjoy gettin this all outta my head an on paper. Well, not paper but kinda sorta.

Like the ageing of fine wine -This age and the age to come, it just keeps getting better!

Well, I talked about this age earlier but I wanted to go a bit more in depth with it because it is so relevant to the events of the tribulation. There are a couple of different translations in the New Testament for the word “age”. The one I’m referring to here is the Greek word “aion”. In some versions you see this word translates as “world” as in “end of the world” when it should correctly state “end of the age”. This Greek word “aion” actually means “a large number of years to indefinite”. It’s all Greek to me, right?

Oh well, scripture tells us in Matthew 12:32 that: “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come.” Wow, so mums the word with the Holy Sprit but I’m really interested in the phrase “age to come.”

Movin on to Hebrews 6:4-5 we hear again about the future age and that there is at least one more to come: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.”

Then again Matthew comes through in 28:19-20 where Jesus gives us our final marching orders: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Cool!

The previous age ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just as that was a real special event (daaa) it stands to reason that at the end of this current age there would be another special event as well. My Bible tells me at least partly what will happen at the end of this age in John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54: “39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Just so we don’t leave anybody out, Jesus tells us in John 12:48: There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.


I think most would agree the next/future age to come will be the one thousand year Millennium which marks the beginning rein of Jesus Christ on planet earth. Based on the scripture I’ve referenced above point me in the direction that we Christians that are alive at the time of the tribulation will in fact go through that tribulation and at the end thereof those Christians that have died previously and we remaining will be taken up to meet Jesus Christ in the air and almost immediately return to earth with Jesus in our heavenly bodies to defeat Satan, his demons and those remaining that would not accept Jesus as their Savior.

I talked about "when" a little earlier but ya know it’s kinda important so I thought I’d take one last swing at it before I finish up. Scripture tells me that I cannot know when Jesus’ return will be but as Christians I think we have a responsibility to have a general idea when this will happen. Wouldn’t ya know it, I even found some scripture that points me to that end in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6. “No brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety, “ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”

I leave you with two words I find most fitting to bring this topic to its heavenly conclusion.

SEMPER PARATUS. Always Ready.

;D

Ranger Rick

[bookwormom]

well, you put it really well. It would be interesting to hear from someone who does indeed believe in the rapture and see what the source of that belief is. I have asked several people who are all gung ho that they won't be around for the tribulation, but I am still waiting.

[RangerRick]

Oh wait, I think I miscommunicated this to you. I do believe that the rapture/taking up will actually happen, I just can't find much that indicates that it will take place prior to the tribulation. I'm really sorry if I didn't make that clear to you.

:)

Rick

[gardenfay]

Well, Rick, I reallly enjoyed your discussion of Pre-Trib vs. Post - Trib. also.
I know you have basically signed off on it and hope you don't mind the tardiness of my remarks; but have been pretty busy lately.
First, I'd just like to say that although you made some good points; you reallly didn't change my mind . i will still pray for guidance during these increasingly difficult times we live in. one of the reasons, I will do that more and more is because I am convinced that even if pre-trib turns out to be right; things may get pretty bad before even a wondrous rapture occurs from a puny human perspective.
i also want to point out that even though looking at individual verses is great and is imperative in Bible study; there is also the need to look at the overall tone.
I think that is why I am still not convinced that post-trib is accurate - because God simply does not make it clear when He describes all those different events in Revelation where we will be when they occur. Therefore, I tend to believe that it is not all that easy to decide. Especially since, as i think it was Sebastion, pointed out near the beginning of this thread that theologians have been arguing this point for a long time.

Also, like I tried to point out once before; I have heard discussions about the rapture that contend that it might just involve our souls; so it would not be referred to as a resurrection at all. Anyway; i still think it was a worthwhile discussion; but still believe that if God wanted us to know for sure, it would be a lot clearer than it is.
Here's a verse in Revelation to think about: Revelations 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM; AND ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL MOURN OVER HIM, Even so, Amen.
So this describes Christ coming back to the earth at some point in time and the Roman soldiers who pierced Him (could be talking about the nails, the thorns, the sword in His side or all three piercings) will be alive in either spirit or body or both to see His return.

[RangerRick]

OK, so what is the "basis" of your belief in a pre-trib stance? *Please understand, "because my pastor said so" really doesn't carry much weight. *I didn't quote the many Old Testament verses that support a post-trib and I know of only two verses that may suggest other than a post-trib, so what Bible scriptures to you look to for your belief?

Rick

[Sebastian_Haff]

gardenfay,

From the tone of Ricks posts over the past year he is preparing both spiritually as well as earthly for a well....
a SHTF in a Biblical sense. And Rick please correct me if I am wrong. He has a good cache of rifles and ammo as well as food and other "survival" gear.
Its interesting that it was not until the year 1830 that
"Tribulation theology" got its start. Does this make all of the Biblical scholars of the past 2000 plus years of Christianity wrong, of course not.
I personally think that well, Tribulation Theology is a "fad" what with all the books and movies, like the "Left Behind" series of books and all of the money that is to be made in it. But I must state that I respect those who wish to believe in it.
Please read my next post which explains things of this nature in a different light.

[Sebastian_Haff]

A sermon given at
The Episcopal Church at Princeton University
Princeton University Chapel
May 6, 2007
The Rev. Joan E. Fleming
Associate Chaplain

Easter 5-C
Acts 11:1-18
Revelation 21:1-6
John 13:31-35
From today's Collect: Almighty God, whom truly to know is everlasting life...

Is Christian faith more about life now or life after death? Enter any medieval church built between the year 1000 and 1350 or so, and you would have been powerfully convinced by the gaping Hell's mouth painted over the crossing or sculpted over the west door that Christian faith is all about whether we get to go to heaven or to hell after death. Listen to Jesus' "new commandment" to his disciples the night before he was to die, and you'd be persuaded that it is all about loving and living in the here and now. Just where does one locate the heart of Christian hope, in time or in eternity?

Some years ago, a newly confirmed teenager in my parish shook me severely with a book recommendation. With great enthusiasm, he pressed a volume into my hands, the best-selling novel, Left Behind. "You must read this!" he exclaimed. About three weeks later, I gave it back with almost equal enthusiasm, enthusiasm to get it off my hands and out of my sight. I had been able to stomach only a couple of chapters, but those two chapters were enough to convince me that however eagerly the series may be embraced by churchgoers on the Christian "right", the message of these books is antithetical to the very heart of Christianity.

The heart of the Left Behind series can be summed up with a little jingle that has been taught in many Sunday schools in this country: "Somewhere in outer space God has prepared a place for all those who trust him and obey... The countdown's getting closer every day." It is the vision of the authors of these extraordinary best-sellers, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, that God will "rapture" the "saved" away from planet Earth, away from the chaos of destruction to be released on those who persist in unbelief, literally leaving behind those unworthy of life with God, to a fate horrible beyond imagining. Over 65 million of these books have been sold, a staggering number, and staggering evidently also to the authors, who claim that such huge sales are evidence of God's "anointing" approval of their work, and proof that, "Prophecy is God's love letter to man."

In the course of John's gospel, Jesus gives what seem like two conflicting messages about his departure from this world. Speaking in the context of his last meal with the disciples, we have just heard him say, "Where I am going, you cannot come." Insisting that he really is leaving them and his physical presence about to be taken away, he repeats that the disciples' love for each other will for ever be the proof of their allegiance to him: whether Jesus is present or absent his new commandment remains non-negotiable:

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
A little later that same night, though, when Jesus sees how deeply distressed the disciples are at the prospect of losing him, he shifts ground to reassure them with the promise of his renewed presence after the terrible passage he is about to undergo: in words that for many of us have deep personal associations with loss and hope because they are so often read at funerals, Jesus promises, "Do not let your hearts be troubled... In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also." The conflict between, "Where I am going you cannot come," and "where I am, there you [will] also be," is resolved in the many sayings of the great "Farewell discourse" of Jesus, on the theme of abiding in his love, through obedient action, yearning and longing, and unalterable allegiance. "If you obey my commandments you will abide in my love." Through such faithful abiding, life now and life to come merge into a single continuum.

From these and countless other passages, I want vehemently to contradict Messrs LaHay and Jenkins by affirming that far from "prophecy," let alone apocalyptic prophecy, being God's love letter to men, Jesus is God's love letter to humanity. For Christians, what we know of God in this life we know through Jesus; and what we hope for in a life to come, we hope in trust through Jesus too. For us there is no self-evident knowledge of God and no assurance of life beyond the grave, outside of what we see and trust in Jesus either. As St. Paul himself says, we walk by faith and not by sight, and the shape of our faith is what we see and believe through Jesus, just as our commitment and allegiance is to follow and obey him. We have our commission from Jesus along with the disciples in the upper room, "Just as I have loved you, you are to love one another."

The Book of Revelation has been used to cook up all manner of hideous scenarios claimed to be Christian, but its ultimate vision is not one of catastrophe visited by God upon a sinful world, the destruction of God's own creation: it is one of a world redeemed by God's own entry into it. Its message is identical to the message of the Incarnation, the message of Emanuel, God with us, and its vision is the realization of Jesus' own prayer, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth." There is tribulation aplenty in the world as we know it, and it is an insult to those who are undergoing unspeakable suffering in Darfur, in northern Uganda, in Iraq, Palestine, and countless other places, to suggest that the real tribulation is still to come, to be unleashed only in the future, and that believing Christians alone will be rescued-by-rapture when it does.

In her book The Rapture Exposed, Barbara Rossing writes: "Christians are not dealt a get-out-of-tribulation-free card to play in the face of the world's suffering and trials... Jesus never asked of God to 'Beam me up' from the earth, nor can we. It is a temptation we must resist - as Jesus did. Tribulation is something that has happened and is still happening today for many of God's people in the world. God saves us not by snatching us out of the world, but by coming into the world to be with us."

To remain true to Jesus' "new commandment" we need more, not less, awareness of the reality of other lives than our own, and more, not less, awareness of the marvelous vision of Revelation, chapter 21: the throne of God descending out of heaven, coming down to earth, and a great voice from the throne proclaiming, "See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes..."

Echoes from this voice and vision and from Jesus' final commandment to his friends, have rippled down through generations of Christians, from the gentle Bishop Polycarp of Smyrna who in the year 156 AD refused to renounce his Lord, saying as he was walked to the stake to be burned alive, "Eighty-six years I have served him, and he never did me wrong. How can I blaspheme my King who saved me?" to 20th-century activist Dorothy Day who gave hospitality in the name of Christ to any in need at her Catholic Worker shelters during the terrible Depression years, and in the faithful witness of multitudes whose names are known to God alone - all of them acting on the inspiration and commitment engendered in their own hearts from the heart of Jesus.

May our lives merge with theirs in a single continuum of witness, action, and love that through trust and hope in Jesus indeed transcends the grave.

[gardenfay]

Sebastian;
I agree with you and the sermon you quoted in regards to the importance of trying our best to carry out Christ's commandment to us about loving others. It is hard for me; i suspect many of us, to truly love others and put their needs above ours. i struggle with it basically every day.
I think we should also never forget what Christ said the most important commandment is; to love God. I think that I am just figuring out how to do that. First, I realized that just like on everything else, I have to ask Him to help me love Him just the way He wants me to. Then, it has helped me love Him more by doing these things; praising Him (speaking of Revelations - some wonderful praises to God there, huh? can't get much better than using the same phrases that are used to praise Him in heaven, can we?), reading His word, thanking Him for the myriad of blessings He gives us each day, even ones we know nothing about. But back to the things you spoke of, Sebastian.
I believe that Christ also said, in John13:36 to Simon Peter 'Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you shall follow me later."New American Standard Version
So when Christ told them of the many mansions in heaven; it was not a 'shifting of ground' on Christ's part; but just a further reassurance, in my opinion.
I also don't agree with, in my opinion, an inference that it has to be one way or the other - focus on the here and now or focus on the hereafter. There is a saying - probably from my Southern Baptist upbringing (haha)that if you are too heavenly minded you will be of no earthly good. I just don't agree with that. What better incentive to do what He wants us to now, than the promises He has made for our future?

I believe that God told us just what He wanted us to know - about what we should be doing here and about what is in store for us.

And Rick , I am not going to bicker with you about the meaning of particular scriptures; i got my fill of that type of 'Bible study' in my youth. Please look back at my immediately previous post and you will see the reasons i have already given you for my persistence in my pre-tribulation stance.
I will, however, expound on it just a tad. As I said earlier, God simply does not make it clear when He describes all those events in Revelations, where we (Christians) will be when they occur. Let me now say that a different way; I double-dog-dare you (okay, just kidding) how should i say this?? I do not think there are Scriptures you can show me that say where Christians will be when these events (tribulation) take place. Therefore; I don't believe God wants it to be clear. Therefore; I will not worry about it too much. Because if there is one thing I am sure of it is that God told us exactly what He wanted to.

I will also say that another reason I hold to my belief in pre-tribulation rapture is that I see no firm reason why we should be here. I think of alot of the events of tribulation as punishment to the world for not accepting Christ - And/Or a way of trying to get them to realize this is their last chance to accept Him. Why would Christians be here for that? We didn't reject Him and so don't need to be punished for that or another chance.
Also, Christ, as He reveals these events to John does not have any special instructions for Christians like we normally get . Why not? I think cuz we are not here.
Like i said in a former post, if the Holy Spirit prompts you to prepare in a particular, but different way than He prompts me to prepare - i have no problem with that. just be sure that you arent spending more time or money than He intends for you to.
praying for guidance and never forgetting that He is Almighty. it Will all go according to His plan.

[RangerRick]

FYI, Rick is prepared for come what may, baseball bat in left hand, Bible in right and tinfoil in hip pocket. I am however impressed you've taken the time to read my previous years post? Could you be that enamored with me, surly I'm not that interesting? But of course I don't know what you're talking about regarding a cache of rifles/ammo/food/survival gear. That was all just supposition don't ya know.
;)
Actually, I think the idea of a Biblical tribulation began about the time "God's Holy Scripture" (Old Testament) stated it and it may well be a "fad" however as I said, I'm not a Bible scholar and wouldn't begin to make that determination without some serious scripture to back it up. Got any? I do know that the Bible isn't written for only the very elect to read and understand and convey from on high. I can read and understand myself, I don't "need" Pastor Jim or the scholars of old to tell me what God says, I can determine it for myself just as God planned. Ya see, my beliefs are based "souly" on God's Word. Now as to books and movies or pastors, I'm sorry, did I quote any, other than the Bible and if memory serves me I believe the Left Behind series supports a pre-trib stance. Not exactly where I'm coming from.

Actually, this thread was started in the hopes of generating some real "personal" heart felt Bible study and sharing of scripture towards a deeper understanding of what God has for each of us. Now me, I'm up for that!

;)

Rick

[RangerRick]

Fay, *the point I'm looking at is regardless of ones point of view it should have some basis founded in God's Word to anchor that position. *Thereby we grow our strength and faith in God. *Feelings are mere speculation, God's Word is rock solid.

My wife told me once she was retaining water and it was all because Jesus "stilled the waters". *Ok, and her anchor held.

;D ;D ;D

Rick

[Sebastian_Haff]

FYI, Rick is prepared for come what may, baseball bat in left hand, Bible in right and tinfoil in hip pocket. *I am however *impressed you've taken the time to read my previous years post? *Could you be that enamored with me, surly I'm not that interesting? * But of course I don't know what you're talking about regarding a cache of rifles/ammo/food/survival gear. *That was all just supposition don't ya know.
;)

Rick

Now Rick,

Lets all be honest here. Would you not be holding a AR-15 assault rifle in one hand and a Bible in the other. After all you do own a variety of firearms and I betcha got more than 100 rounds of ammo laying around the old homestead. ;) Which is your right.
You actually are a very interesting study in Fundamentalist Christianity. I always look forward to reading your posts.
I am not trying to highjack this thread, I just want you to be honest with gardenfay. After all she can read your previous posts regarding firearms, survival gear and the like. You seem to really know what you are talking about.

[gardenfay]

hi guys:
im baack~! hehe
well, i think you both sound like you know what you are talking about - look forward to many more interesting discussions with you, both here and in heaven.

But for now, think i will bow out of this one, at least for now and say once again Rick, that i believe my view is grounded in scripture. you know in legal arguments, when they say that for some discussions, the spirit or intent of the law is just as important as the letter of the law. Well that is the point im trying to make here. Anyway, no point in beating a dead horse, as they say. you guys take care and have a very blessed Christmas.
oh, and one more thing, when I say I believe this way or feel that way, I am merely trying to convey that is how i interpret something. I don't want to come off as sounding like I Know God meant this by such and such scripture because it just doesn't feel right for me.

[RangerRick]

Fay,

I trust you and yours will have a blessed Christmas remembering the real reason for the season.

;)

Rick

[gardenfay]

Thank you Rick

[homesteadingnky]

Hi Rick, I appreciate your post and the stand you take for Christ. I have been pondering this very question for some time now and I ran across this post today. I'm still not sure (pre-trb, post-trib, etc.) but more and more as I read I believe we will have to go through some very hard times.

I've had a gut feeling (may-be or may-be not, perhaps it is the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart) telling me to get prepared. Prepared for what? I wish I knew. I only know that this feeling is as strong as any I've ever felt. May-be it's just me. I do know that we are living in serious times and probably there are worse times to come (perhaps an economic collapse or terrorist attacks-I don't know).

But I do know that Jesus is coming back someday and He said to "watch and pray". And as we talk about the end of time I'm also aware that today or tomorrow could be the end of time for any one of us, as we are not promised another day.

But as you mentioned, this site and BHM is all about being prepared. And I want to make sure that my family is as safe and provided for as I possibly can and that means first and foremost spiritually, then physically, and financially. It means stocking the pantry, and being constantly prepared. Having a well thought out BOB an a plan in case of trouble. It means getting out of debt and staying that way! It means sharing with others the importance of all these things and teaching them the skills they need in order to survive.

But it also means spending time with my family in the Word and discipling them myself rather than sending them to someone else for their spiritual education. As the husband and father the responsibility falls on me. It is my responsibility to train my children in the things of God (Duet.6). Academics are important but we've majored on the minors long enough. It 's just so important to make sure that those you love are prepared in every way.

I'll save the rest of my rambling thoughts for another post perhaps under a new topic and I'll be reading again in Revelation and may have some questions soon.

Thanks again.

I thank you for your post. They have challeged me to dig a little deeper in the Word and I look forward to seeing what everyone else has to share on this subject.

[RangerRick]

Sounds to me like you've got your priorities sorted out well. When we look to Him we tend to not run off in the ditch of life. Look forward to hearing more of your ideas soon.

;D

Rick

[hillsidedigger]

I suspect the 7 years of tribulation started in 587.5 (?) b.c and lasted until 1967.5 a.d. (A number of years very nearly = to the number of days in 7 years). So, any sort of Rapture must be subsequent to the conclusion of the tribulation and in fact it may be the non-believers that are taken and the believers 'left-behind'. It would take a long dissertaion to explain this.

[RangerRick]

I'd sure be interested in seeing some scripture that backs that up.

rick

[homesteadingnky]

yeah. So would I. ???

Homesteading Dad 'n KY

[hillsidedigger]

Consider the Dome of the Rock also known as the al Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount.

It was built within a decade of the mid-point between 587.5 b.c. and 1967.5 a.d..

Its commonly considered that the 70 weeks (490 days) of Daniel is actually 490 years.

[flatwater]

You say that pre trib or post trib is such a big thing to know and I would ask you this---Why? It has nothing to do with your salvation and the most important thing is to just be ready. Besides this thing has been talked to death for at least 200 years or longer by bible teachers far smarter then you and I and most of the people that use this forum and their still arguing about it still. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.
Flatwater

[homesteadingnky]

I would certainly agree that the most important thing is to just be ready always. There's no doubt about that. And I would also agree that there is no need to argue about it. But I also think that there's nothing at all wrong with trying to learn all we can learn about the scriptures and there's nothing wrong with discussing our ideas, point of view, or even our convictions. Who knows, by simply discussing the coming events (even if we don't have all of the answers) someone may read the post who isn't spiritually prepared and be drawn by the Holy Spirit to repent of their sins and they may become ready and prepared. We should be able to discuss even the most controversial scriptures in love with one another without arguing and getting mad. That would turn the non-believer off instantly! Being passionate is good. Being argumenitive is not. I would simply say if someone wants to discuss something. Go for it. Whether I agree or not. I might chime in and share my take on the subject and you might disagree but isn't that the beauty of it? God chose to give us a choice. You can be right or you can be wrong, but it's your right to choose. If God doesn't get mad at us and strike us dead when we walk outside of His will but chooses to love us and patiently draw at our heart shouldn't we be more loving and patient with each other in discussions like this? My best to you all. I hope we can continue to discuss topics like this peacefully and respectfully.

2 Timothy 2:15
Homesteading Dad 'n KY

[RangerRick]

You say that pre trib or post trib is such a big thing to know and I would ask you this---Why? It has nothing to do with your salvation and the most important thing is to just be ready. Besides this thing has been talked to death for at least 200 years or longer by bible teachers far smarter then you and I and most of the people that use this forum and their still arguing about it still. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.
Flatwater

There are some folks that just don't want to take someone elses opinions on things but would rather learn the truth of the matter themselves. *At one time all the worlds "experts" agreeded that the world was flat and imprisioned those that disagreed. *Consequently, I'd disagree with your primis of the superiority of a "bible teachers" superiority. 1 John 2:27 - *God's word was witten to be read and studied to show ourselves approved. *Actually, the aformentioned scriptures are all about salvation and the tribulation is God's final attempt to bring the lost that salvation so I personally think it's kinda important and worthy of indepth study to those that "have an ear to hear" and don't care to be programed by some "teacher" that may or may not know what they are talking about or just relating what some other "teacher" has taught. *As for me, I think this is far too important a topic to be left in the hands of anyone other than myself. *Kinda of like my salvation, why take someone elses prespective regarding "my eternity"?

Rick

Rick

[flatwater]

Rick
could you explain to me why pre-trib or post-trib could make a difference in ones salvation, I have an ear to hear. Even after bible collage I didn't agree with everything my professors had to say because the were men just like myself but I did reccognize their life time of study and knowing hebrew and greek which is very usefull in interpreting Gods Word. Good on ya if your affluent in those two languages. I still haven't got them mastered yet.
Flatwater

[RangerRick]

First you might re-read the thread as you may have missed a point or two.

Just think of all these folks relying on a pre-tribulation God wisking them out of all of the terrible trials of those "left behind". What could be better than a gold plated "get outta jail free card"? Will they then be prepared mentially, physically and most importantly, spiritually to deal with the reality of first, WWIII then losing everything they own, those they know and then trying to live through every calamity of the Bible yet to follow. They may well wish to understand and prepare themselves and family for a different reality before it slams them into an actual "hell on earth". I think for those living in the "great tribulation" their salvation may well come at a much higher physical cost than they "were" prepared to pay with a simple "poof, I'm outta here" God.

To thine self be true by always being ready. Me, I like to try covering all the bases I can.

Semper Paratus. IMHO.

:)

Rick

[rAcErRicK]

For whatever it is worth, I have wondered for many years these same questions, and I am thankful to all who have attempted to communicate with each other in trying to peacefully and respectfully help each other understand this subject. I fear what lies ahead, and believe it to be very near, and look forward to it, simply to get to the other side where we all shall meet and reside for eternity. Thank you all for your efforts.

your other brother, rick

[RangerRick]

Fear? No fear at all for those of us that have an iorn clad guarantee for eternity but for those poor fools that continue to reject the Son Of God, much fear and trimbling and the everlasting torment of hell yet to fill their forevers.

Me, I'm looking forward to the Kingdon Yet To Come!

;D

Rick

[lsg]

Yes, and I don't plan on being around for the tribulation ;D

[beekeeper]

I do not know if 'pre-trib' or 'post-trib' is us.

The way that I see it, I need to study God's Word and to worship Him.

WWI was not the end of the world.
WWII was not the end.
WWIII may not be the end of the world.

We could be facing WWIII; all of the middle east could erupt in war next week. It has before. None of that dictates that is has any connection to the events of the 'Revelations of John'.

[RangerRick]

Yeph, studying God's Word, that's pretty much what this thread is all about and I do highly recommend it as it will put a song in your heart and a skip in your step.

Rick

[quietH2O]

Greetings R-Rick et al,

I'm new to this site and thus only recently had the pleasure of reading this thread. (It has taken me three days to read it in its entirety.) Perhaps this topic has been exhausted; however, maybe I can "resurrect" some interest in it again?

I have a question from the Thessalonians scripture that R-Rick quoted on a few occasions at the start of the discussion. It's text is included here for convenience.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, (Christians) will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to “MEET” the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

My question is this: What do you think about the amount of time, indicated by "after that," that elapses between verse 16 and verse 17? Do you think that verse 17 happens immediately after 16? Or could a number of days, months, years or even centuries separate these events?

I'd be interested in what your thoughts are on this and how, if at all, it may influence your view of the timing of the rapture? Does this bear any relevance to your discussion?

::)

[milleniumbug]

Revelations is thee "ends-beginning"... I was raised in a home of Christian faith and concider myself to be a Christian...I have over the last 25 years done alittle research into thee Tribulation period the Bible and the book of Revelations... I have also within that time have been writing a story based upon that area of time...in my travels I have heard many a soul either ask this question or state that there would be no rapture at all...since Revelations is a symbolic map of end time events yet to come then I would like to reference a scripture within that book inwhich I in brief viewing did not see mentioned here... I believe, if read, will bring and or shed light upon this question...For myself, I believe YES...There will be a "Rapture"...If you are curious...Please go to Revelation 14:14-20... :oI all so believe there will be only a select few whom will "make the grade" to be "reaped" or "harvested"...Do I believe I will be one in that select few...? :-/Unfortunatly...My gut feeling is no...I, as in my story I've been writing over these 25 years, feel is a different calling...But I do feel there will be a harvest of Gods children upon this Earth before what is yet to come...have Faith

[flatwater]

Not to be picky but it's Revelation not with an S. It's considered one revelation not many Revelations. And sorry that you feel you won't be coming with us.
Flatwater

[quietH2O]

Hi Milleniumbug,
Your name is intriguing, given the topic. I'm sure there must be a story behind it.

I'm curious why you don't believe you will be taken in the harvest? It sounds as thought you feel you have a God-ordained purpose for remaining behind? Or do you believe you will not "make the grade?"

[RangerRick]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner but things around the place have happening way too fast of late. In reply to your question:

I don't see "after that" as a specific period of time but "in a sequence of time". As I find no basis for multiple "takings" in scripture, we scripturally know He does take the dead in Christ first and in sequence we who are still alive and are left will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM.

You got any scripture that sheds any light on it I'd sure like to study it a bit?

Of course another point that interest me would also be in verse 16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven", just exactly where will He come down to? Will He come down to Earth, His throne to the gates of His kingdom, somewhere in the heavens, etc.. Sure gives reason to study doesn't it.



Rick

[lsg]

I find Dr. J. Vernon Magee's explanation of Revelation and the end times very interesting. *You can go to ttb.org and order the books or CD. *His teachings are down to earth and easy for me to understand.

[flatwater]

Isq. I used to listen to him on the radio or at least his tapes (he's dead ) I liked his teaching but could hardly stand to hear him talk. Especially when he said God. He made it sound like Gaaawwwd. Great sermons though.
Flatwater ;D ;D

[lsg]

Flatwater, his talk doesn't bother me. I guess it is because I am from Missouri and have that twang myself. ;D
Although he is dead, his program is still heard on many radio stations. I believe his teachings are as applicable today as they were when he taped them.

[quietH2O]

RangerRick,

There are a number of instances in scripture in which "after this" can indicate an indefinite period of time, or at least it doesn't indicate "immediacy". For instance: John 5 starts out indicating it was the Feast of the Jews (which typically references the Passover). Jesus was in Jerusalem for the feast, as was His custom. It goes on to describe an event at which Jesus gives a wonderful defense of his divinity. John 6 then begins with "after these things" and goes on to tell us that Jesus had left Jerusalem and gone to Galilee (vs. 1) and a great number of signs have been performed (obviously took some time.) Then we see that once again the Passover of the Jews was at hand (vs. 4) Thus, a year has passed between the two chapters - indicated by the phrase "after these things." It sounds sequential, which it is, but not immediately.

The gospel of John is full of the phrase, "after these things." Yet it covers the time frame beginning with creation to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Another instance from Revelation: Ch1:1, "...to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place..." It sound like these things are going to happen soon. But "shortly" doesn't mean any minute now, but rather "suddenly" or in a sudden, unexpected, surprising way. Revelation, like John, has a number of "after these things," and "after this," phrases.

The book of Daniel, which has significant end times relevance, bounces all over the place. At some instances 15 years lapse from one chapter to another. Some chapters happen decades before the chapter which precede it.

Just something to think about.

I really don't know the answer to the question I've posed. Maybe it isn't relevant, but I have wondered if it is correct to assume that the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the believers happen one after the other AND also at the same event. I'm inclined to pose the challenge to provide scriptural evidence to substantiate that is the case.

I'm like you, I'm not convinced by the pre-trib stance. But, I do know that He will never leave us or forsake us, so if we do have to endure tribulation we have an advocate, helper, comforter and protector in the Holy Spirit who is resident in the life of every believer. We may suffer but we will not be overcome. One thing we can know for certain from Revelation and all of The Word, is that God triumphs and we have the Victory. Halleluia!!!

Now, we also know that at some point God will remove the Holy Spirit - the restrainer. So I have no doubt that when that happens we will not be left for the very reason I stated above - He will never leave us....

awaiting your thoughts
::)

[milleniumbug]

I appologize for my length in times passing of my response... FLAT WATER...Yes you would be correct in your statement that it is pronounced "Revelation"...I can not speak for the heading of this forum...But I will say in my last or previous post my reference to and used as "Revelations" is because in my research and studies of its book I have learned to separate...view all of John's visions as plural (many visions "revelations") not as a singulure vision(just one vision)...So I am sorry if I misspoke its pronounciation...My bad ;D ....QUIET H20... Yes the "Milleniumbug" thing...there is a connection(you are intuitive and insiteful) .Your other question...?But first I have to ask... Are you a Priest...? ;D If not, I am sorry but I won't go into "all" the reasons I won't be "joining the party" and if you are one of those unfortunate whom are left behind with me... then maybe one day you and I will possibily meet and we can sit around thee camp fire and tell each others sad stories...I mean this reply humorously of course, so please don't take offence (about the priest question). "Is it a God thing?" I would have to say yes, By seeing all that I have seen, I would definatly have to say yes... But that all, is a looooong story... I guess that is why I been writing the story that I have been for so long... I hope for all whom pose this question of Faith and the Tribulation that the verse I referenced sheds some light and blessing upon this subject...I have writen three scripts for three different movies, God willing, I hope one day you and all can see...pertaining and set in this time period. :) Oh, and Ranger Rick...To your kinda question... about the Bible not mentioning the taking of many...The verse I spoke of speaks of... a harvest of the Earth...When a farmer goes out to his field to harvest his crop...Does he just remove one single grain...? or does he reap his harvest(all grains)... :) Our belief in our creater... Our God... As his children...Requires our Faith in times and of Tribulation... Does not that require any less? God Bless all in these uncertain and trying times we all now live in.

[quietH2O]

Milleniumbug et al,

No, I'm not a Priest or a Nun, but I do consider myself a saint (small "s" - Eph. 2:19).

Thanks to the enormous sacrifice of my Savior, I can count myself among that group. Believe me, I'm not deserving of the title. I owed a debt I could not pay; He paid a debt He did not owe. I am the happy recipient of a "ticket" to heaven - it could be I will be cashing it in today, maybe I'll live to see Him return in the clouds. I've always thought it would be fun to fly, so I wouldn't mind experiencing the rapture!!!! :D ....whenever it happens.
??? I tend to be, as they say, "Pan-trib," it will all pan out in the end - according to His perfect will.

If I am left behind, I will not deny God, or feel as though God has lied to me. My concern is for those who have been taught, emphatically, that the rapture WILL occur before the tribulation. IF it doesn't happen that way, what will become of the faith of those who've bought that bill of goods? Will they doubt God's Word? - as was the case with the early Christians which required Paul to write to them to give clarification? (II Thess. 2:2 ff)

Milleniumbug, I hope to see your movies some day. And I hope we do meet around a campfire, or around The Throne!

Some days, the hope of Heaven is the only thing that gets me through.

Q

[milleniumbug]

sounds good Q....

[prepngo]

Excellent topic and very timely.

I, too, grew up believing in a pre-trib rapture, then about 15 years ago the Holy Spirit led me into a real study of the Word regarding end-times prophecy. It was then that I discovered that there is nothing in the Bible that indicates that Christians will "escape" the tribulation.

The Bible does say that we are not "appointed to" God's wrath, however according to what I read in the Bible, God's wrath...which is much different that God's judgment...doesn't get "poured out" until the 7 vials get poured out, beginning at the sounding of the 7th trumpet/"last trump".

The 7th trumpet is also when the "Day of the Lord (http://like-a-thief-in-the-night.blogspot.com)" occurs and is when the "rapture" occurs.

To answer someone who wondered why it is important to know whether there's a pre-trib or post-trib (pre-wrath) "catching away": many people who have heard the teaching of the pre-trib rapture have decided to live their life any way they want, believing that when they see all the Christians disappear, that that will be the time for them to "get right" with God. Then they think they'll just have to tough it out and get through the Tribulation.

However, when the Christians don't disappear and the anti-christ comes into power, they will not recognize it and will be those who God will send a "delusion" so that they will believe the lie of the anti-christ because they "loved not the Truth".

[TNDadx4]

Wow... cool subject. I am not sure where I stand, however, I like to believe the pre-trib viewpoint.

For me, if we were raptured after the tribulation, we would have a more definite idea of Christ's returning, because we would know the date of the signing of the peace agreement with Israel, the desecration of the temple, etc. There is also mentioned that the Anti-Christ won;t have full reign until the restraining one is removed. I believe that that is the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit resides in us, then we leave when He leaves.

But... on the other had, typically when trials came in the Bible, God's people were preserved though them (ie: Israelites in the wilderness, Noah and the ark, etc.) to show God's providence.

Either way, I am preparing like we will be here just in case :)

[gwhilikerz]

Very interesting discussion. But I can't go along with any pre-trib or even a post-trib rapture. To me the Bible simply won't support such ideas. We aren't going anyplace. We aren't going to fly-away into the clouds. Paul was using "clouds" to mean a great mass of people. He used the same analogy when talking about running a race. Jesus is coming here. HE will set up the kingdom in New Jerusalem (same location as present day Jerusalem).
BUT, and this is most important, HE won't come until after most of the people have been deceived into believing the first one claiming to be Jesus is the real thing. That's what anti-christ means in the Greek, "instead of" or "in the place of" Christ.
I could write about this subject all day, but I better stop here for now. Nice meeting you guys.

[shinja]

As it was in the days of Noah.... -what does this mean? As the Lord’s Presence is intensified, the world situation continues to degrade, to fall further and further away from God's presence and His authority. Prior to the deluge in Genesis, there is evidence that God was striving with man, who continued to fall further and further away from God prresence and ruling authority and into sin and rebellion. Enoch [who walked with God and was taken by God] predicted that when Methuselah died, “then it" –the deluge –God’s judgment "would come". There is a principle here; as the presence of the Lord is magnified, the world, the cosmos, degrades in regard to things concerning God and His kingdom. In the book of Revelation, we read that as the age of grace continues to its climax, the Spirit of God’s New Testament ministry is actually magnified seven fold to supply the spiritual needs of His believers and to give the world a chance to repent and turn to Him and be saved from the coming judgment by fire.

The apostate condition of the world, the nation of Israel and the church is an indication that the Lord's presence is increasing... -i.e. the heat is turning up and for us the believers, that means He is intensifying from within our regenerated and mingled spirit as well.

This brings us to another revelation in the Scripture and that being the fellowship that the Lord's return to the believers is not just upon them [to take them away] but also simultaneously from within them as well -as Paul wrote to the church in Ephesus, we are God's dwelling place in spirit." He is coming to be glorified from within His believers [2 Thessalonians 1:10] and upon His believers [1 Thessalonians 1:10]. This was Paul's fellowship to the church in Thessalonica, and also his fellowship to the church in Roman [Chapter 8] as well as the church in Philippi [Chapter 3]. It was also John's fellowship in his first epistle; and Peter alludes to the same revelation when he writes concerning the Lord as the morning star rising up within our [the believers] hearts. In the eyes of the Lord this is all quite relevant and this is how the believers will be raptured to stand in te presence of the Lord [Gospel of Luke]

But how many professing Christians are ready for the Lord to be glorified from within them? Sobering thought. When the apostle John saw Christ in His glorification [book of Revelation] he fell down as a dead man. Saul of Tarsus was blinded.

From this revelation of the Lord’s coming to be glorified in His believers, we can also see just how the apostles and early believers actually lived... and walked in spirit and in continual fellowship with the Lord -and in a sobering fear in and with the Spirit [2 Corinthians 3] –this being a fear of not being found ready and having to turn away in shame at His Presence being manifested [glorified] from within them and being turned away from His glory being manifested upon them.

The multiple fallings away recorded in opening chapters of Genesis [Chapters 3-6] that issued in the deluge are being played out again... only this time, judgment will be by fire. This "falling away" in Genesis is also outlined in the big Recovery Version of Bible in Genesis.

Subsequent to the flood, we know that the Spirit of Jehovah was prominent on the earth up until the time of Nimrod when human culture began to go contrary to the Lord's grace and the decline began to repeat itself ...and has continued up to this day. As you know, more detail of the rise of godless human culture is recorded in a book called, The Two Babylons.

We know that the Lord presented our being "raptured" in the same manner as the principle of harvesting a crop. Firstfruits, harvest and gleanings.

We know that the believers will be taken, because this is the Lord’s promise to them and because Jude also writes in his epistle that Enoch saw the Lord return with tens of thousands of His saints –this would be to defeat anti-Christ and to usher in the millennial kingdom of Christ. In order to return, did they not have to be taken first -in a similar manner as Enoch and Elijah? However, the Lord’s return with His believers will be with the overcoming believers throughout the Old and New Testament ages and their presence and activities at their manifestation are recorded in the Book of Joel.

One of the deceptions of Satan, is to distract and befuddle the Lord's followers in such a way and with such teachings that are based on portional understandings of the Bible. These are typically established as doctrine. But, while some may argue about pre and or post tribulation rapture, it may very well happen as they debate and they may not even know it... though a taking of the first fruits provokes the soberness of those believers "left behind" and their love for the world being dried up as a result, then the majority of the believers become the harvest -as opposed to the firstfruits, the overcomers.

The kind of teaching [of a mass -all the believers are to be raptured at one time is also derived from Hindu teachings as well] and does not promote watchfulness, but rather complacency. This is not logical. Why would a harvest be reaped if it is not ripe?

Many of those who claim to watch are only looking at the signs of the times, a similar stance like a previous generation that claimed to know the Bible and follow God during the Lord's first Presence and ministry on earth. However they missed the Lord altogether. Believers should not be so arrogant so as to think that they are simply going to be taken regardless of how they live today. Like the fruit of a harvest, if it is green it will not be picked until ripe. Those picked first are enjoyed by the farmer in his house; the harvest is later reaped and taken to the "barn." [Gospel of Luke]

[gwhilikerz]

shinja, I don't know where to start. So I'll just take one paragraph of your post.
"We know that the believers will be taken, because this is the Lord’s promise to them and because Jude also writes in his epistle that Enoch saw the Lord return with tens of thousands of His saints –this would be to defeat anti-Christ and to usher in the millennial kingdom of Christ. In order to return, did they not have to be taken first -in a similar manner as Enoch and Elijah? However, the Lord’s return with His believers will be with the overcoming believers throughout the Old and New Testament ages and their presence and activities at their manifestation are recorded in the Book of Joel. "
Yes Jesus is coming back with "tens of thousands" of His saints. These are those who have previously died right here on earth and are now patiently waiting before the Altar.
Jesus told us that those "taken" from the field, bed, press, etc. are just like those taken in the days of Noe (Noah). Who was taken then? It was those who disregarded Noah's warnings and kept right on with their wild living, right up until the flood came and "took" them. Noah and his family were "left behind" to start things anew.
Those who will soon be "taken" are those who are fooled into believing they are following Christ, when in reality, the first one on the scene is Satan claiming to be Christ. They are "taken" by his flood of lies. They will be crying for the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the True Christ when they realise what they have done. Those "left-behind", God's remnant, the ones who have been shouting at the tops of their voices that the first is a fake, are just like Noah was in his day.