should a Christian Evangelist be in favor of invad

[bookwormom]

I thought I would toss this out for discussion. I am still learning the ropes and to my surprise read that a TV pastor named John Hagee is all in favor of bombing Iran.
Maybe other ministers are too, I don't know.

[alma]

It beats me how anyone who is a real christian could believe in war.

Christ, supposedly, said, "MY kingdom is NOT ot this world. If MY kingdom were of this world, than would my soldiers fight."

"The weapons of our warfare and NOT carnal, but mighty to the pulling down of strong holds, etc."

He, supposedly, said, "Wisdom is better than ANY weapons of war. If ANY man lack wisdom, let him ask of god who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not."

Solomon was given the gift of wisdom because he asked not the life of his enemies.

"The sword of the spirit is the word of god."

"From whence cometh wars. They come from the lust in your members. Ye ask (for peace) and receive it not because you would consume it upon your lusts".

MY peace, i GIVE unto you, not as the world giveth, give i unto you."

The old testament is full of war and warriors.

Jesus, supposedly, came to give us a new dispensation, a new direction.

Even though i am agnostic, meaning i just don't know the final answers to anything, he resonates with my spirit. I can relate to most of what he taught.

If you believe in the body of jesus and are fascinated with his body and forget what he taught, you are not getting it.

The old testament law says "Thou shalt not kill."

--but, you see, "It is the spirit that quickeneth. and not the letter of the law. Love fulills the law, not that ye loved me, but that i loved you."

That is where the grace of god comes in. It is a gift, and undeserved kindness, or somethiing.

It is what he taught that is important, as far as i can make out, and not his personality.

What he taught is god-like, as far as i understand it.

In the name of god, and believing in his blessing upon our wars, we destroy each other and all else that god has, supposedly, created.

--and all this for our various gods and countries, whoever we are, and wherever we come from.

Creation would be the work of a creator.
Destruction would be the work of a destroyer, i would think.

Why believe blind leaders of the blind.

"Let God be true, and EVERY man a liar."

--and if John Hagee said that, he is a rabble rouser, and not preaching the word of god as i understand it.

--and there are the mennonites, the jehovah witness, the amish, the church of the breather, the seventh day adventists and many other good and honorable and courageous people who believe the same.

Whose to say that the wisdomn they prayed for, and received, is not better than any of our carnal weapons of war? love, alma

[alma]

A conversation with god. i hope i have the address right.

http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/viewmovie.html

[Katrina-Sisu]

I'm a Christian and I believe in seperation of church and state. That guy is an excellent example of why we have that in America :-X.

Kat

[jim]

I've listened to him, and he wants to do this as a premptive strike to stabilize the area, and protect our nation. Christian or not, if you know someone is going to hurt you, you'd be a fool to leave them the iniative.

jim

[WileyCoyote]

Just because someone has weapons, does not mean that they intend to be an aggressor. Most of us on here aren't going out looking for a fight with other armed people just because they are armed, or because they are idiots or a different religion - but we WILL fight if we are threatened.

I'm sorry, I think the whole premise against Iraq was flawed - WE put Saddam into power because he was better than the Ayatollah, and he turned on us. If we had minded our own damned business - or taken him out the FIRST time in Desert Storm - we would not be over there today. Osama was educated HERE and in England, and learned how to stir up the unwashed masses to proliferate his own power base - he was the initiator (and still is) and still the biggest threat. His disciples are in our own prisons, even in conclaves all over the US, still stirring up the unwashed masses to revolution. Nevertheless, now we are pontificating about other 'threats' instead of taking care of the real ones swiftly and surely. This preacher, to me, is just buying into the whole - "We're right, They're wrong - let's go kill 'em all!" basic and irrational mentality of the current uneducated masses, and using it - just like Saddam and Osama - for his own personal agenda and self-promotion.

I get sick of people - ANY people - using their religion as a power base from which to kill others "in God's name".

I still don't see the use of a virgin (much less 73 of em) ;) ;D but whatever they believe, fine - just don't start using specious interpretations as foundations to kill more American soldiers - and thereby enrich Haliburtons and Blackhawks and politicos.

[jim]

Well, they're willing to use the weapon as soon as they get it. Aren't you willing to protect yourself? They're dangerous and need to be stopped in this area. No invasion, but bomb the reactors and weapons sites.

jim

[WileyCoyote]

ARE they willing, able, and have the intent and/or capability to use it? Or is that just rumor and propaganda to justify any act?

Naw, I'm not challenging you, Jim. I just don't trust the whole cheerleading team that insists that everyone is out to get us, so we have to get 'em first. It's a whole lot easier to start something with rumors, innuendo, aspersions, and personal attacks than it is to stop it... or repair it once the rumors are proved specious.

[azsavage]

john hagee wrote a wonderful book called jerusalem countdown that has some very knowledgable arguments, the real problem is not with iran, it is with islam, a religion whose very basis of faith calls for the conversion or death to all infidels, if you do not follow these guidelines you are also considered unworthy of your own muslim faith and should be put to death.......on and on and on.....that is who john hagee is against, if you do not wish to open your eyes to the threat then you better start learning to embrace islam.

killing an infidel is an express ticket to heaven in the muslim mind.

[jim]

This properly condenses the problem, and is not the only source I use, but is an excellent statement of the problem(s) we face.

Middle East Imperative
BY: JIM CASH, Brig. Gen., USAF, Ret.

I wrote recently about the war in Iraq and the larger war against radical Islam, eliciting a number of responses. Let me try and put this conflict in proper perspective.

Understand, the current battle we are engaged in is much bigger than just Iraq. What happens in the next year will affect this country and how our kids and grand kids live throughout their lifetime, and beyond. Radical Islam has been attacking the West since the seventh century. They have been defeated in the past and decimated to the point of taking hundreds of years to recover. But they can never be totally defeated. Their birth rates are so far beyond civilized world rates that in time they recover and attempt to dominate again.

There are eight terror-sponsoring countries that make up the grand threat to the West. Two , Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, just need firm pressure from the West to make major reforms. They need to decide who they are really going to support and commit to that support. That answer is simple. They both will support who they think will hang in there until the end, and win. We are not sending very good signals in that direction right now, thanks to the Democrats.

The other six, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea and Libya will require regime change or a major policy shift. Now, let's look more closely. Afghanistan and Iraq have both had regime changes, but are being fueled by outsiders from Syria and Iran . We have scared Gaddafi's pants off, and he has given up his quest for nuclear weapons, so I don't think Libya is now a threat.

North Korea (the non-Islamic threat) can be handled diplomatically by buying them off. They are starving. That leaves Syria and Iran. Syria is like a frightened puppy. Without the support of Iran they will join the stronger side. So where does that leave us? Sooner, or later, we are going to be forced to confront Iran, and it better be before they gain nuclear capability.

In 1989 I served as a Command Director inside the Cheyenne Mountain complex located in Colorado Springs, Colorado for almost three years. My job there was to observe (through classified means) every missile shot anywhere in the world and assess if it was a threat to the US or Canada. If any shot was threatening to either nation I had only minutes to advise the President, as he had only minutes to respond. I watched Iran and Iraq shoot missiles at each other every day, and all day long, for months. They killed hundreds of thousand of their people. Know why? They were fighting for control of the Middle East and that enormous oil supply.

At that time, they were preoccupied with their internal problems and could care less about toppling the west. Oil prices were fairly stable and we could not see an immediate threat. Well, the worst part of what we have done as a nation in Iraq is to do away with the military capability of one of those nations. Now, Iran has a clear field to dominate the Middle East, since Iraq is no longer a threat to them. They have turned their attention to the only other threat to their dominance, they are convinced they will win, because the US is so divided, and the Democrats (who now control Congress and may control the Presidency in 2008) have openly said we are pulling out.

Do you have any idea what will happen if the entire Middle East turns their support to Iran , which they will obviously do if we pull out? It is not the price of oil we will have to worry about. Oil WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE to this country at any price. I personally would vote for any presidential candidate who did what JFK did with the space program---declare a goal to bring this country to total energy independence in a decade.

Yes, it is about oil. The economy in this country will totally die if that Middle East supply is cut off right now. It will not be a recession. It will be a depression that will make 1929 look like the "good-old-days". The bottom line here is simple. If Iran is forced to fall in line, the fighting in Iraq will end over night, and the nightmare will be over.

One way or another, Iran must be forced to join modern times and the global community. It may mean a real war---if so, now is the time, before we face a nuclear Iran with the capacity to destroy Israel and begin a new ice age. I urge you to read the book "END GAME" by two of our best Middle East experts, true American patriots and retired military generals, Paul Vallely and Tom McInerney. They are our finest, and totally honest in their assessment of why victory in the Middle East is so important, and how it can be won. Proceeds for the book go directly to memorial fund for our fallen soldiers who served the country during the war on terror. You can find that book by going to the Internet through Stand-up America at www.ospreyradio.us or www.rightalk.com.

On the other hand, we have several very angry retired generals today, who evidently have not achieved their lofty goals, and insist on ranting and raving about the war. They are wrong, and doing the country great harm by giving a certain political party reason to use them as experts to back their anti-war claims.

You may be one of those who believe nothing could ever be terrible enough to support our going to war. If that is the case I should stop here, as that level of thinking approaches mental disability in this day and age. It is right up there with alien abductions and high altitude seeding through government aircraft contrails. I helped produced those contrails for almost 30 years, and I can assure you we were not seeding the atmosphere. The human race is a war-like population, and if a country is not willing to protect itself, it deserves the consequences. Nuff-said!!!

Now, my last comments will get to the nerve. They will be on politics. I am not a Republican. And, George Bush has made enough mistakes as President to insure my feelings about that for the rest of my life. However, the Democratic Party has moved so far left, they have made me support those farther to the right. I am a conservative who totally supports the Constitution of this country. The only difference between the United States and the South American, third world, dictator infested and ever-changing South American governments, is our US Constitution.

This Republic (note I did not say Democracy) is the longest standing the world has ever known, but it is vulnerable. It would take so little to change it through economic upheaval. There was a time when politicians could disagree, but still work together. We are past that time, and that is the initial step toward the downfall of our form of government.

I think that many view Bush-hating as payback time. The Republicans hated the Clinton's and now the Democrats hate Bush. So, both parties are putting their hate toward willingness to do anything for political dominance to include lying and always taking the opposite stand just for the sake of being opposed. JUST HOW GOOD IS THAT FOR OUR COUNTRY?

In my lifetime, after serving in uniform for President's Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Bush I have a pretty good feel for which party supported our military, and what military life was like under each of their terms. And, let me assure you that times were best under the Republicans.

Service under Jimmy Carter was devastating for all branches of the military. And, Ronald Regan was truly a salvation. You can choose to listen to enriched newscasters, and foolish people like John Murtha (he is no war hero), Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Michael Moore, Jane Fonda , Harry Reid, Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, and on-and-on to include the true fools in Hollywood if you like. If you do, your conclusions will be totally wrong.

The reason that I write, appear on radio talk shows, and do everything I can to denounce those people is simple. THEY ARE PUTTING THEIR THIRST FOR POLITICAL POWER AND QUEST FOR VICTORY IN 2008 ABOVE WHAT IS BEST FOR THIS COUNTRY. I cannot abide that. Pelosi clearly defied the Logan Act by going to Syria , which should have lead to imprisonment of three years and a heavy fine. Jane Fonda did more to prolong the Vietnam war longer than any other human being (as acknowledged by Ho Chi Minh in his writing before he died). She truly should have been indicted for treason, along with her radical husband, Tom Hayden, and forced to pay the consequences.

This country has started to soften by not enforcing its laws, which is another indication of a Republic about to fall. All Democrats, along with the Hollywood elite, are sending us headlong into a total defeat in the Middle East, which will finally give Iran total dominance in the region. A lack of oil in the near future will be the final straw that dooms this Republic. However, if we refuse to let this happen and really get serious about an energy self-sufficiency program, this can be avoided. I am afraid, however, that we are going in the opposite direction. If we elect Hillary Clinton and a Democrat controlled congress, and they carry through with allowing Iran to take control of the Middle East, continue to refuse development of nuclear energy, refuse to allow drilling for new oil, and continue to do nothing but oppose everything Bush, it will be over in terms of what we view as the good life in the USA ..

Now, do I think that all who do not support the war are un-American -- of course not. They just do not understand the importance of total victory in that region.
Another failure of George Bush is his inability to explain to the American people why we are there, and why we MUST win. By the way, it is not a war. The war was won four years ago. It is martial law that is under attack by Iranian and Syrian outside influences, and there is a difference.

So, what do I believe? What is the bottom line? I will simply say that the Democratic Party has fielded the foulest, power hungry, anti-country, self absorbed group of individuals that I have observed in my lifetime. Our educational system is partially to blame for allowing the mass of America to be taken in by this group. George Bush has done the best he can with the disabilities that he possesses.

A President must communicate with the people. And, I would tell you that Desert Storm spoiled the people. Bush Senior's 100-hour war convinced the people that technology has progressed to the point that wars could be fought with no casualties and won in very short periods of time. I remember feeling at the time, that this was a tragedy for the US military. To win wars, you must put boots on the ground. When you put boots on the ground, soldiers are going to die. A President must make the war decision wisely, and insure that the cause is right before using his last political option. However, CONTROLLING IRAN AND DEMOCRATIZING THE MIDDLE EAST IS THE ONLY CHOICE IF WE ARE HELL-BENT ON DEPENDING ON THEM FOR OUR FUTURE ENERGY NEEDS.

Jimmy L. Cash, Brig. Gen., USAF, Ret.
Lakeside , Montana 59922

================================================== =========

"I'll tell you what war is all about, you've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough they stop fighting." Gen. Curtis LeMay

[WileyCoyote]

I agree with about 90% of what you posted. However, it is apparent to me that we have people in BOTH parties who think that our military is expendable for purely political gain.

I did NOT want to go back into Iraq. Yes, Saddam was a miserable genocidal maniac - but WE put him in power, let him gain his dictatorship and rule thru violence and fear. He helped cause the violent responses in the Middle East, rather than forming a reasonable barrier to them. Unchecked and then - suddenly and with mouth breathing shock - the US discovered what he was doing! - and then suddenly we had an Enemy! Whoo hoo! Instead of taking him out and replacing him in Desert Storm, we merely put him underground and helped fuel the fires of Al Queda.

I think that we are woefully uninformed, emotionalized, and politicized about the Middle East, and I think it is done on purpose so that the politicos can use war for pure profit rather than telling the truth and doing as you posted - negotiating where ever possible, showing force that is immediate and definitive where absolutely necessary. Instead, our presidents and congresses waffle and whine and talk about the human factor, when we know for damn' sure that the Islam world doesn't give a tinker's damn about the human factor.

We militarists had a motto in Desert Storm - "Seven Empty tubes, a mushroom cloud, it's Miller time!" and my son's unit had tshirts made that said, "Baghdad Weather Forecast - 73000 degrees and partly cloudy" with an orange mushroom cloud. Had our military been allowed to do what should have been done without the bleeding hearts getting in the way, we would have stopped that problem. Instead this has become another never-ending war.

Yes Islamic jihadists want to kill all of the Jews and Christians if they can't convert them. Even thought their own Koran teaches tolerance and dignity, they have overlooked those chapters and verses to ignite and incite - mostly for their own achievements of personal power. And- we have done the same with the Bible, in many instances! We are being played by both sides, based on religious and cultural fanaticism, and using terrorism and politics alike to promote each agenda.

I long for the day when we can all boil it down to common sense and final and permanent solutions for those who want to kill us. But that day will never come again - if it ever existed. There is too much money to be made on the dead bodies of soldiers from all sides.

[azsavage]

wiley, i totally agree with your point on being allowed to fight the war with immediate and definitive action, we seem to have our hands tied by politically correct agendas, you can not fight this way, the jihaist love that we are bound by law, morals and pc constraints, it gives them a serious advantage. i can tell you that the military on the ground has had numerous rules that impede their ability to do their job, how would you like it if someone was shooting at you in a war zone but you could not return fire unless you could positively id the shooter as the enemy, i wish i could really let loose on this topic but as active duty my hands are tied on that matter. i support the war, our troops and the goal, we as a country can not by any means afford to lose in iraq or anywhere else in the middle east.

[WileyCoyote]

Exactly, Azsavage. And these jihadists are NOT responsible to nor native to any country - they are outside most governments and are stirring hate and discontent simply because they can. You don't kill someone because they are related to, neighbors to, or go to church with the person who attacked you - you kill the person who attacked you! That's like "blaming society", or your mother, or twinkies, for making you do something illegal or immoral - personal responsibility has gone by the wayside, and now we blame guns, nuclear weapons, and other inanimate objects or general societies for causing the problem. Kill what or who bothers you; do it swiftly, unemotionally, take no excuses or prisoners.