superstition

[bookwormom]

now I am not superstitious, knock on wood.
I can see how superstitions get started. we are in this drought, right? well, a few weeks back I had a teenager we hire occasionally move some firewood for me and put it by the woodshed, where it was in a pile since I did not have time to stack it right away. I told husband, now just watch, it is going to rain, for good measure I cleaned the car and left the laundry hanging out over night. Sure enough we got a couple of rains. enough to make a difference in the garden. I had a time getting my wood dry again and hustled to get it under cover. I told husband, now watch, we'll have another dry spell. sure enough, drought continues. and it will stay like this for a while because I just got finished making a 400 gallon waterbox to catch the water from the roof on the northside by my summerkitchen. Naturally I am waiting desperately to have it filled up. We also got a filter done for the in ground cistern. Of course I still have some firewood up by the barn that is going to be in my way...

[Rick]

Good thing you didn't make an 800 gallon cistern, we'd never get any rain.

Speaking of superstitions, some have a basis in truth. I always heard it was bad luck to light three [cigarettes] on a match. That one stems from WWI. By the time the third guy got his weed going, the enemy sniper had time to line him up.

[ShadowWolf]

I'd say that all of the above would fall under Murphy's Law.

[exodus]

Last night there was a 40% chance of rain..My DH left both cars out that had been newly cleaned, watered all the flowers, and left a couple windows open in the hopes of rain and sure enough we got a miserly 1/2 inch with lots of noise and lightening. We are thankful for that since it has been taking my DH 4-5 hours to water the vegetable gardens, fruit trees and flower beds daily.

We have never had a drought this bad...hope for lots of snow this winter.

Exodus

[bookwormom]

I opened my big mouth and talked about using commercial jars in the canning forum. Now I am worried they won't keep.

seriously, all through the world there are those superstitions. I remember reading "The Good 'Earth" as a young girl and in one scene the young man and his wife, walked along through their fields carrying their strapping firstborn son, happy as can be, when suddenly it struck them. The man covered the child's head and with a loud voice, so any "gods" neaby might hear, he said: too bad our child is only a girl and sickly. Yes, added the mother, I hope it dies soon.
well, I think I will leave the car windows open tonight.

[bookwormom]

I opened my big mouth and talked about using commercial jars in the canning forum. Now I am worried they won't keep.

Seriously, all through the world there are those superstitions. I remember reading "The Good 'Earth" as a young girl and in one scene the young man and his wife, walked along through their fields carrying their strapping firstborn son, happy as can be, when suddenly it struck them. The man covered the child's head and with a loud voice, so any "gods" neaby might hear, he said: too bad our child is only a girl and sickly. Yes, added the mother, I hope it dies soon.
well, I think I will leave the car windows open tonight.

[WileyCoyote]

LOL Last night I went to a football game, but had watered the garden. As we gathered, the players and coaches were watching the sky fearfully, it was lightening and thundering terribly. I laughed and told them not to worry, that I hadn't washed or waxed the pickup, only watered the garden. Although we were treated to a spectacular light display throughout the game, it never rained!

The truth of the matter is that I know the patterns of the air masses that go over us, along with the routes that they follow because of the groundwater, rivers and streams. If a sudden summer storm is traveling west to east and south of us, it will stay south of us because of the river configuration to our south and west; the sudden storms do not have the strength to overcome the changes in air pressure over the river. Ditto if it is north of the Great Swamp which lies 15 miles to our north. (A slow moving soaker can overcome those changes.) The air didn't 'feel right' or 'smell right' for a storm - and the leaves on the trees that turn over to bare their sensitive undersides to pending rain weren't turning over either.

Superstition is usually based on facts that are imperceptible or not known to the general public. It is more fun to be considered a soothsayer who can predict the weather than to continuously go through the practical and scientific explanations of natural occurances.

[JAK]

What is superstition?
Is Christian faith superstition?

[wax]

Jak- Is Christian faith superstition?

Wax- Good question... unless of course you are attempting to refute faith, Christian or otherwise.

The answer is no... Christian faith, or any faith is not superstition.

Superstition is a response to observation.
Example: It is observed that your uncle died the day after he reported seeing a black cat.
Your sister sees a black cat, reports it, and dies two days later.
Eventually you may form a belief that seeing a black cat is somehow connected to dying.

Faith is not supported by observation.
Faith is an acceptance of truth beyond observation.
It is nuanced and many athiests feel compelled to attack it because of this, yet it is beyond attack because faith is neither truth nor falsehood.

[JAK]

Interesting response. No I wasn't attacking faith, or superstition. It's just my understanding that a lot of superstition has some basis on some persistent beliefs from pre-christian faiths. I am of Scottish descent, so I have some of that handed down. It has value to me, so I don't use it to attack faith. I am one of those of a mind that such superstitions can go hand in hand with faith in christianity. They are part of my faith, as I see it, but I understand what you mean. Perhaps a better term for what I am talking about is a sixth sense, rather than superstition, but as a scientist and a believer, I can see them as being both at the same time. I can attach value to coincidence, while at the same time appreciating that they might just be pure coincidence. Like when someone close to you dies, and you try to find meaning in certain things associated with it, superstition and faith tend to be closely linked, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it compells you to move forward positively, and perhaps be a better person through positive acts.

[JAK]

Soren Kiergaard is credited as being the first existentialist philosopher, and as such considered to be a 20th century philospher, though he lived in the 19th. Unlike many of the 20th century existentialists, he was not an atheist, though I think he may have been excommunicated. He considered faith to be a what he called a 'leap into absurdity', but a neccessary one. I think its a beautiful idea. I don't understand why it should offend people.

[JAK]

Here is the dude:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard

I can understand that his ideas may not be useful to most people, and I don't understand most of what he has written, having never actually read it. But his ideas do strike a chord with me.

p.s. I think perhaps I was mistaken. I am not sure that he was excommunicated after all, though he had many critics. I think I had him confused with an earlier writer and philosopher, Spinoza, who I think was excommunicated from both Christianity and Judaism, or whatever they call excommunication. He was a lens grinder by trade. It was bitter irony, while at the same time a beautiful metaphor, that he went blind grinding lenses so that others could see. Many of the ancients believed that blindness is the price for great wisdom.

Here is Spinoza:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoza

p.p.s. I was mistaken again. Spinoza did not go blind, but suffered a fatal lung disease as a result of his lens grinding. Not sure what the message is there.

[bookwormom]

from thinking about it last night I have come to the conclusion that superstition is a believe (and attempt) that one can influence fate and ward off bad things by doing certain things, utilizing certain items, like a talisman. Like the self fullfilling prophecy, some of those things work because we make them work on a subconscious level. for instance, if I wear the talisman I believe in, I am selfconfident and full of positive expectation and things work out well.
Of course you can forget influencing things beyond your control, like leaving the car windows open, the cat may get locked up in there and poop on your seat.

[JAK]

The distinction between faith and superstition still seems pretty grey to me. I agree they have different connotations, but functionally they at least overlap, and what might be considered superstition to some people, might be regarded as faith to those people themselves, and perhaps vices versus. In all fairness though, I would use the term superstitious when I am more doubtful, and perhaps playful, and use the term faith when I am more serious. The two still overlap, if only because faith and doubt overlap, and perhaps also because faith and joy overlap. I understand that some of these beliefs and practicies might be considered to be somewhat heretical, but that is a different matter than whether we call it by one name or another. Perhaps it is more a form of blasphemy to consider faith superstition, and heresy, or at least sin, to consider superstition to be faith.

Wikipedia does a good job providing as overview:
http://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft: en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

[bookwormom]

I think that you are making a good point JAK. In German superstition is called something like "contrary faith", compared to faith. after all, you are believing something, right or wrong, approved or not, it is a kind of faith. some people put a lot of faith in Tarot cards. Maybe we need to have a thread on faith sometime.

[wax]

Jak- The distinction between faith and superstition still seems pretty grey to me. I agree they have different connotations, but functionally they at least overlap, and what might be considered superstition to some people, might be regarded as faith to those people themselves, and perhaps vices versus.

Wax- Yes and no... but then again yes, yet no!

Here is the "deal" as I understand it.

Superstition can be refuted by actual facts while faith can not.

Confused yet? It gets much much worse!
The "sun will rise tomorrow" might be a superstition but it likely to be a matter of faith.
There are many mechanisms in which the sun would not rise tomorrow but the key is this... can you convince someone that it will not by arguing these mechanisms?

Can you convince someone that the sun might go supernova tonight while they sleep and thus not rise tomorrow?
If not, the sun will rise is a matter of faith.
It always has and it always will so to speak.

Conserning Christianity there are many elements of "superstition" but it is foundationally based on faith.

Faith:
Jesus existed and was the savior of man.
He died for our sins.
Heaven exists and "God" loves us as his creation.
Those points are basic as faith and no "Christian" can form faith without them.

Possible superstition:
Praying to the archangel Michael (virgin Mary et al) will (do something et al).
That the bread and wine given during Mass literally turns to blood and flesh.
That a leader (such as a Pope) is given devine authority in some way.
That one can not sing to worship (must sing to worship) etc... in other words there are all sorts of possible superstitions concerning how one worships as a Christian.
That Jesus was born in December.
That the Jewish leaders played an active role in the execution of Jesus.


Could easily be one or the other but usually is a matter of faith:
That the "Lord's Supper" is a required mechanism.
That "God" hears and answers prayers.
That Satan exists as an entity and will be/has been damned.
That anyone will be/has been damned.
We could go on for literally years... people have!

Now you will notice that the faith portion listed is about as basic as one can get... and I would be shocked if a number of people do not jump in and declare that it must be added to (for example Jesus being "the" son of God instead of "A" son of God etc).
This is a two thousand year old fight that simply can not be resolved in a form like this!

We must understand that a great many of the "functions" of Christian worship and understanding are influenced by other cultures and thus are superstition.
One can argue against Jesus being born in Bethleham much less a manger but it is unpopular to say the least to do so!
And if such a thing is based on faith (as a Biblical source) then one can not argue against it.
Or at least one is not justified in doing so and can not win.

In matters of worship one can argue a superstition... in other words one can declare that the belief is not correct.

And again we must be as simple as we can:
A superstition might be that one must kneel in order to pray to God.
We can argue that God will hear prayers (or not hear prayers) regardless of body position.
As long as we do not argue that God does not exist then we are not threatening faith.