Satanism

[Rick_O_Shea]

No...I'm not a Satanist...I'm not anything.

I was just toying with the idea that perhaps we backed the wrong horse.

God creates man, gives him free will, places him in paradise with a perfect woman, then forbids him to seek knowledge.

Maybe God is a sadist, creating little human playthings for his own pleasure. Perhaps he even has an ego, where he only wants to be loved and worshipped.

Whereas Satan wanted man to know, to feel, to experience the fullest wonders of his life. And he was cast down with man when he persuaded him to eat the fruit.

So on one hand, you have God - that is egocentric, sadistic and wishes to retard mans' experience of life - and on the other Satan - that wishes for man to be all that he can be.

What amazes me is the success of the propaganda machine that has instituted all manner of churches. Perhaps these people are cynically trying to claw their way into God's good graces again? But for what?

To hell with God...let's back the other horse!

[333]

Peace,

Cant fault your logic, its precise, and I agree, there are some serious contradictions between the western notion of What God Is, and the fact he needs or wants anything from humans. Perhaps we should transcend our old beliefs
and discard that which is inapplicable and defunct, and build upon that which is known to pragmatically work.

So on one hand, you have God - that is egocentric, sadistic and wishes to retard mans' experience of life - and on the other Satan - that wishes for man to be all that he can be.

I would say that humans have perverted the notion of god to effect their own temporal agendas, all social institutions based on morality come from law makers and their beliefs in god for that which is morally right, so much for the separation of church and state, wasn't there a big nasty debate over this by the founding fathers, a few of them were staunch deist's. (God exists but has left us to our own devices) God should have nothing at all to do with government.

That which is morally right can not be premised by ones interpretive imaginary omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, benevolent, eternal, ONE friend.

It is contradictory, by this definition of god, that he needs anything from us humans.
Ignorance was the blissful state of EDEN, to ask the question why, by primitive man, in the nature of the world around him, then to research the answers, was his fall from ignorance/ bliss, his mortality. Creating science, and subsequently god or gods to explain the things his primitive understanding (science) could not. And repeat through out the eons.

333

[alma]

God, supposedly, told adam and eve NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, as i recall it.

Now, i take that to mean that we are not to judge one another about who is good and who is evil, stop personal judgements that demean one, and
put another up on a pedistal.

--better than thouism. "My side is better than your side".

"My country, my race or religion or economic status or intellectual capacities are better than yours".

"Judge not that ye be not judged".
"Our righteousness is as filthy rags," etc
That's what i think was meant.

I don't think we are told not to seek knowledge.

In any event, i am agnostic, and don't think anyone really knows anything, certainly not how to consider the heights and depths of good and evil. love, alma

[dwh]

Satanism is the religion of Self. Love those that love you, because loving those that hate you does not profit you any. Loving yourself above all because you are the most important person in your life.

Christianity is the religion of Love. Love your fellow man, even your enemies.

I think I'll go with the powerful being that teaches love, even of your enemies, before the one that teaches love yourself over any other.

The thought that a being that will teach love of self as the primary motive of action, somehow cares about you, or me... I'm sorry I see serious problems with this.

[Rick_O_Shea]

I have no knowledge of what Satanism 'really' is or how it is practiced. Quite frankly, I see a lot of kids walking around that accessorize with satanism for the sake of some cool goth chic. They just look totally gay to me ;-)

I also imagine that a lot of people 'understand' what satanism is because of what they have been told. God is love, Satan is hate, God is Joy, Satan is pain, Heaven is bounteous pleasure, Hell is red-hot forks up yer ass.

No surprises there! I would expect the Christian side to propagandize and demonize (!) Satanism, as it stands in opposition to everything they've worked hard to establish.

I wasn't trying to justify any particular sect of Satanism, as I know nothing about them...I was just starting out down a fresh road on my own ;-)

How would we know if we were wrong? How would we be able to decide that we'd backed the right horse? What if God really is a petty sadist, and Satan was our savior, and everything we've been told to believe about God vs Satan is a pile of manipulative crap?

[dwh]

I have no knowledge of what Satanism 'really' is or how it is practiced. Quite frankly, I see a lot of kids walking around that accessorize with satanism for the sake of some cool goth chic. They just look totally gay to me ;-)

Yea, people grab on to anything to buck the establishment, to be different, I agree with your assessment here.

I also imagine that a lot of people 'understand' what satanism is because of what they have been told. God is love, Satan is hate, God is Joy, Satan is pain, Heaven is bounteous pleasure, Hell is red-hot forks up yer ass.

I don't believe that Satan is hate, though I'm sure at this point he does hate God, and so would have to hate God's people. To a Christian God would be love and Satan would be hate, it's like two sides of a war, so it's understandable.

I don't think "Hell is red hot forks up your backside". But it won't be good, maybe we really should start a topic about hellfire, as we have a conversation going about it on another thread. But there's a misconception that the prisoners somehow run the prison. Satan will be an inmate there, just like the rest of us.

No surprises there! I would expect the Christian side to propagandize and demonize (!) Satanism, as it stands in opposition to everything they've worked hard to establish.

The church considers anything that takes away from the church to be of the Devil. The belief that you can find God without church is of the devil.

I wasn't trying to justify any particular sect of Satanism, as I know nothing about them...I was just starting out down a fresh road on my own ;-)

How would we know if we were wrong? How would we be able to decide that we'd backed the right horse? What if God really is a petty sadist, and Satan was our savior, and everything we've been told to believe about God vs Satan is a pile of manipulative crap?

I'm going to play devils advocate here, and I really hate to do this, because I would hate to lead anyone away from God. I really feel like God talks to me. The trouble with that is, when God talks to you, so does Satan, and he can be convincing.

Anyway...

You asked how can we know we chose the right side.

Dan 7:10 talks about the number of Angels being ten-thousand times ten-thousand.

According to interpretations of Rev 12:4 Satan took a third of Heaven with him when he fell.

Think about that for a minute.

A third of the Angels in Heaven, that walked with God, talked with God, knew Gods forces, and knew Satan, chose to follow Satan over God. Do you believe these beings would know God's power better than us? Do you believe these beings would know whether or not when they lost they would be thrown into Hell fire, surely they wouldn't rage war on God if they didn't think they had a chance, eh?

And if the Angels who have seen God don't know, how can we?

You search for the truth and you will find it. You follow your heart.

I think your heart knows to who it belongs. But that's just my belief.

[bookwormom]

good post alma.

Please red careful what the scripture says. there is nothing against "knowledge". What it says is knowledge of Good and Evil. what it boils down to is, man is not supposed to decide what is good and what is bad. God decides that and gave us instructions correspondingly. But man can make the decision to decide for himself.

Humans have always wanted to reject what God tells them and decide for themselves. My experience in life so far has been that God does not want anything for me that is bad.

there is a scripture in Isaiah 5:20 to the effect of "woe to them who call evil good and good evil...,etc"
and In Deuteronomy there is a scripture that says in effect:
(I am quoting from memory)

"I call this day as a witness against you, that I have put before you good and evil, life and death...so choose, for why would you die..."
In Rev. speaking to the seven churches Jesus says seven times "to him who overcometh will I give...."
It looks to me like we are put on planet Earth to have to contend with evil, to make a choice and we have to bear the consequences. Tell me one thing that God tells us that is bad for us?

By contrast I see a world full of pain and homemade suffering by going contrary to the Creators instructions.

Satan offered Jesus the whole world, riches and power if he would follow him, which we know Jesus turned down. But there are people on this planet with lots of power and wealth who have not turned it down. No. God is not sadistic and has not created us for his entertainment. we are to become his children, (in other words, become like him, be creative, heck, the Universe is huge, the possibilities are endless). Planet Earth is a training and trying ground, we just have such a narrow view. And fact is, so far we have made a huge mess of planet Earth, and not by following God by and large.

[Rick_O_Shea]

As I said at the outset...I ain't anything...it's all mumbo-jumbo to me...but given that so many people find so much comfort in God, I have to wonder, as an outsider, how anyone can know if they're wrong. Quoting from Christian literature isn't really too compelling an argument - I doubt you're going to unearth a revelation that Satan is the 'good' one ;-)

Where can we find alternative knowledge of the flip-side of this equation? Are there 'official' satanic texts to reference? Without any balance, how can Christians be confident they are not being conned? Perhaps all the good that happens in their lives is the result of an astonishingly benevolent Satan...and God has, in fact, abandoned us?

[333]

Peace,

Most all religions in their essence proclaim " love thy neighbor as thy self" in one form or another, they preach and teach, and claim the path to god.

But while we pull out quote and verse as we choose,
here are a few that I find contradictory to the extent I believe could not have come from any deity/entity/ concept that holds the value of Benevolent.

Deuteronomy 23:1-2

"He that is wounded in the "stones" (testicles),
or hath his "privy -member" cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord"

Torah

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gates of the town."They shall say to the elders, ' This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard ' Then all of the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you."

Qur'an ,Surah 9:123

O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you that Allah is with those who fear him."


Bhagavad-Gita Chapter 2 Text 32

"...you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles, and so there is no need for hesitation."

Exodus 32:37

"take every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout his camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."

Numbers 25:4-9

"Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the Lord."

2 Nephi 23:6-16

"and their children shall also be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished."

Now these are all words from holy scriptures that represent a benevolent God.? I find that contradictory.
Either the scriptures are mistaken, or our definition of God is inaccurate .
So if the scriptures are mistaken, then no problem, toss out the trash and recycle the working scripture.
If our definition of God is inaccurate likewise.

Peace

[Mark_and_Nicole]

"did we back the wrong horse"
LOL! i posed this very same subject once over at the tree rat board.
i was booted instantly.
bible thumpers dont like to think or have their dogma challenged. L!

Mark

[bookwormom]

quote by 333
Most all religions in their essence proclaim " love thy neighbor as thy self" in one form or another, they preach and teach, and claim the path to god.

on the surface that sounds right, however, if memory serves me right ( I did read up on world religions some time way back) there is one difference.
The one says basically to not do unto others what you do not want to have done to yourself.

Jesus however in the famous golden rule states to: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you take the trouble to look at it you'll notice that one is positive and the other negative. two sides of the coin.
One says DON'T hurt the other guy, the other says DO good to the other guy.

[333]

Peace,

I prefer the analogy there are three sides to every coin.
On one side you have one view, on the other side another view, then theres the edge of the coin, some where between the two sides, resides the truth.

333

[bookwormom]

so what is in the middle of the two?

[333]

Peace,

The Middle Way?

A god that is neither, vengeful, or exclusive?

A god that lives up to everyones expectations?

A god that requires nothing from us.

A god that is content with it's perfect creation, energy manifested in the human experience?

A god of unconditional love?

::)

333

[Rick_O_Shea]

or...ahem...no god?

[daphodil]

'we backed the wrong horse' I wonder about that, too; certainly there is a lot of fun to be had when you enjoy life to its fullest. . .
For a long time, many of the religions have been uptight about certain natural functions, making many seem unclean and taboo. Calling our 'drives' lustful and immoral.
Sometimes I think the 'drive' to control others via a book is just as lusty and pernicious.

[admin]

Jesus however in the famous golden rule states to: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you take the trouble to look at it you'll notice that one is positive and the other negative. two sides of the coin.
One says DON'T hurt the other guy, the other says DO good to the other guy.
Well...

The golden rule doesn't actually say anything about doing good to anyone. It says 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'

What if you are willing to chance others trying to steal your property if they can? Does that then give you divine license to steal from others if you can?

What if you are willing to chance others raping your woman or women? Does that give you divine license to rape?

After all, you are only doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. If they're not as strong or prepared to defend themselves, their property, and their women as you are, well, too bad.

We assume that everyone wants everyone else to do only good unto them. Remember what happens when we 'ass u me' ?

The gravest mistakes we make in America are believing

1. Everybody is basically good at heart.

2. Everybody essentially thinks like us.

3. Everybody can be reasoned with or bought off.

They stem from hubris and self-delusion and, IMHO, will be the cause of our downfall.


Oliver