The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

[chloe3388]

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have
Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=autos_autos+--+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+stories

[Buck]

""But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient."

I've heard dumb answers but this one is the tops! Back when VW sold
a diesel Rabbit they couldn't build'em fast enough so this, added to
VW new diesel, is proof that if diesels would be sold in the US there
would be a ready market.

This is just lame!!!!!

[Quietgentleman]

A barrel of oil yields these refined products (percent of barrel):

47% gasoline for use in automobiles
23% heating oil and diesel fuel
18% other products, which includes petrochemical feedstock—products derived from petroleum principally for the manufacturing of chemicals, synthetic rubber and plastics
10% jet fuel
4% propane
3% asphalt
(Percentages equal more than 100 because of an approximately 5% processing gain from refining.)

Do you suppose we are kept chained to gasoline because rest of the world runs mostly on diesel. The oil companies working with the auto industry to find a market for the gasoline by product.

QGM

[Anne]

They are shooting themselves in the foot, and they certainly have the ability to build these here.

There was a car out years ago -- the Geo Metro. My recollection was that those cars got something like 60 mpg on the highway. At least, that is what the dealer info said. The notion that we need some crazy technology that hasn't been invented yet or some mass alteration of how cars are currently built is silly. American car makers need to get their heads out of their backsides.

And the first company that comes up with a fuel efficient truck or SUV to pull a loaded trailer will have my money.

[Naughty_Pines]

I owned a Geo Metro. I drove it from Los Angeles area to Seattle then to Wyoming and back to LA area.
I checked mileage in Montana and it was about 55mpg traveling about 60 - 65 mph. Great little car for being a 'throw away' car.
I wish I still had it.

[jim]

There are lots of high performance diesels in Europe and we should build them too. A lot of the technology comes from Teledyne, and Continental so we have things like variable compression ratio turbo'd diesels that perform like sports cars, and that is 30 year old technology.

The little VW diesels would give 50 (NA) and 60 (turbo) mpg at 3000 rpm. There are still plenty of them around, but I don't know if they're still imported.

Because diesel smokes and stinks (I love the smell!) ignorant people think they pollute badly. Not true at all! Even a Normally Aspirated diesel can reach 98% effeceicny and all the black stuff is carbon which is inert, and won't harm anything at all. Politicians play to the eco-freaks and so diesels have an undeserved bad rap.

jim

[MooseToo]

""But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient."

I've heard dumb answers but this one is the tops! Back when VW sold
a diesel Rabbit they couldn't build'em fast enough so this, added to
VW new diesel, is proof that if diesels would be sold in the US there
would be a ready market.

This is just lame!!!!!

right buck - this is proof fomoco's upper level management have elected to not make money - the root of all evil and all that stuff -

[Suzy]

The radio station where my best buddy does the news had someone from the energy-government-folks on there this week talking about why Ford wouldn't sell the 65 mpg Focus here, saying that they "couldn't make it competitive yet with the Prius here." good grief!

The woman on the talk show was giving Ford, the government, and everybody else he** and I think more of the rest of us should too...

They could make vehicles if higher mpg if we demanded it....the nation has made a good start cutting down on gas useage since the gas prices went so high but we don't need to stop there!

[kawalekm]

One reason for diesel's slow comeback was the poorly implemented scheme to introduce diesels back in the 70's during the first oil crisis. GM modified a gasoline engine to run of diesel, marketed it, and saw demand plummet after owners saw what a terrible product it was.

The second reason is that the pollution controls in California and New York are more stringent than the rest of the country. Automakers don't want to sell a car unless it is marketable in all 50 states.

A third reason is that environmentalists have made diesel the poster child of environmental incorrectness. They will trip over themselves in the rush to promote hybrids while not being able to say anything good about clean diesel.

Companies like VW and Mercedes are very committed to diesel technology, and both come up with viable pollution control strateges to meet Ca. and N.Y. standards. Companies like GM don't want to bother because that would raise costs. Just like installing seatbelts or air bags did.

In the end, the only thing that will change people's minds is the price at the pump. Gas will be 5$/gallon next year, and people will start to ask why can't they buy the diesel that is getting 60 mpg! That's what's happening in Europe an the rest of the world. We aren't chained to gasoline because the rest of the world uses diesel. The rest of the world is chained to diesel because Americans use so much of the gasoline!

[ryanmercer]

Saw that yesterday on a link in my gmail. Isn't that crazy... *shakes his head*

[Winston_Smith]

As the big three struggle to stay afloat let's not forget that VW does currently offer a diesel in their Jetta, Touraeg, and I think Passat models. The Jettas are always backordered and I've heard of many dealers asking and getting $4,000 over msrp. While I am a VW fan I would much rather support the automakers in my own state if they would only give me the opportunity to. If GM or Ford would introduce a compact AWD turbodiesel they would sell like crazy. BTW Subaru will be releasing it's own boxer turbodiesel in the states here very soon.

[kawalekm]

I want a diesel car so bad I can taste it. Being here in California makes it tough though. Until the new pollution controls are installed, VW can only sell 1000 diesels in all of California per year.

Actually, I am very excited about the Subaru diesel. I'm leaning toward getting a Subaru anyway because I want a light 4X4 for driving on our dirt moutain roads, but don't need to drive my big F350 all the time. The upcoming diesel Subaru may be the best of two worlds. I'd guess that a diesel Forester would probably get about 40 mpg. I'm waiting!

[keitholivier]

The new Jetta TDi is 50 state emissions compliant and you get a $1300 tax credit if you buy one because of both the fuel economy and the low emissions. * Sad part is that dealers only get about 3-4 per month and most dealers have waiting lists over a year long already. * I am on a list of a dealer in Ft Wayne for the TDi and have paid a $250 deposit about 3 months ago and went on the waiting list for the Smart almost a year ago. * *Despite a year of waiting, no Smart yet and it is looking the same way with the Jetta. * *

The demand is so high that with a little throttling on the supply side by the automakers, it allows premium prices to be charged *($5k over MSRP), which is pretty nice for the dealer in todays market.

If Ford and GM would bring their diesels here, they would sell like crazy, but they are too lazy to invest in the needed exhaust aftertreatment and new engine calibration.

[Tuckahoe]

In the 1980's an old mechanic/tinker here took an engine from a farm tractor and put it in a full size ford f100. With a bunch of work and tuning he was getting 40 mpg from a three cylinder tractor motor in a full size pickup truck. The origional motor gave 15 mpg tops. If an old man in a back yard shop can build something like this what are we getting from detroit.

[Red_Diamond_Ranch]

For those of us here that are pretty good Mechanics and or who have an extra couple of grand laying around. Check out the Cummins 4 & 6 cylinder Diesel engines. These will fit into most any truck or car. The best part is that even in a one ton truck they will get between 25 & 30 MPG. They are made to pull a load. And, there is company the makes adapter plates to fit these to many transmissions Ford, GM and Chrysler. There is a Forum where folks who have and are doing this swap.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php
These engines are much simpler than the new computerized guzzlers that cost 30 to 40 grand today. There is definitely one going into my gas monster.
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm354/RedDiamondRanch/100_9225.jpg

[MooseToo]

the main reason we don't have small diesel vehicles in the u.s. is the good old epa -

[ryanmercer]

Right now I'd prefer unleaded... 1.39 for Unleaded... still over 3$ for diesel.

[fnfredux]

we DID have Fiestas for sale here. Nobody WANTED them. They didn't get quite that mileage, but certainly about 45mpg, we HAD one.
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/festiva/review.html

Ford also had a Fiesta for sale here and the line even included a mini pick-up


http://www.channel4.com/4car/ft/feature/retrospective/1186/5
NOBODY WANTED THEM, everybody WANTED the big gas guzzlers, to "drive the carpool kids safely".
Well, America, you got what you wanted.
Too late to cry now.


we had one of these RELIABLE, ECONOMICAL, ROOMY for its size, and we got 46mpg on the hwy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5376.shtml
My husband totaled it >:( or we might still have it!

[MissouriFree]

we DID have Fiestas for sale here. Nobody WANTED them. They didn't get quite that mileage, but certainly about 45mpg, we HAD one.
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/festiva/review.html

Ford also had a Fiesta for sale here and the line even included a mini pick-up


http://www.channel4.com/4car/ft/feature/retrospective/1186/5
NOBODY WANTED THEM, everybody WANTED the big gas guzzlers, to "drive the carpool kids safely".
Well, America, you got what you wanted.
Too late to cry now.


we had one of these RELIABLE, ECONOMICAL, ROOMY for its size, and we got 46mpg on the hwy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5376.shtml
My husband totaled it >:( or we might still have it!
Fred is smack on . The big 2 and half *make and sell what the people what.. just like any other business in the world. *Why do you think Toyoto now makes a full size *pick up .

Funny that old free market thing always works. willing buyer and willing seller = contract

[ryanmercer]

Fred is smack on . The big 2 and half *make and sell what the people what.. just like any other business in the world. *Why do you think Toyoto now makes a full size *pick up .

Funny that old free market thing always works. willing buyer and willing *seller = contract


People don't always want what they need.

[fnfredux]

People don't always want what they need.

You are right, they WANT what they WANT... that;s why so many can't pay their mortgage either.
There is no way you can force people to do what is best for them. That's what GOOD parents are for, to teach VALUES, and the ability to REASON.

[kmccune]

Love these links you guys provide, anyway I've had a good many Fords-make of that what you will-the last Ford we owned was a 2000 Focus(less then exempliary-sorry about my spelling) Ford has turned around in the past few years and I believe I would probaly would buy another, but they used to want you to buy what they(the management) wanted to produce the Edsel, Pinto, etc-they even micromanaged the Diesel engine program(psd) when I found out what they did,I had to grit my teeth-Kevin

[Phil_R]

If interested in Volkswagen diesels: TDIClub.com forums (http://forums.tdiclub.com/)

Diesel conversions: 4BTSwaps.com (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php)

Phil
2000 VW TDI Golf
2008 Ford F250 diesel

[WRTN]

Actually these vehicles have been available since the early 1990's. The get up to about 45 mpg. The first models were the Festiva's that were built for Ford by Kia who is now owned by Hyundia. As stated above, very little interest was expressed in these models by the AmeriKan public.

[bookwormom]

Fiesta? Fiat had a Fiesta for years. I don't pay much attention to cars, but I am surprised there is to be another Fiesta on Europes Market, or is Fiat now Ford?.

[nhlivefreeordie]

People don't always want what they need.

That sounds a little bit on the heavy handed side. Granted there are people who buy things they can't afford, that is NO reason to limit what is available to those of us who will pay the price. I have an F-150 and wouldn't have anything smaller, it fits my needs, is dependable, and POWERFUL ( 5.4 L ) and I believe it was worth every bit of the $35,000 price tag back in '04, it is the last vehicle I will buy new, and it will last me 25 years at least, ( I take care of things). To start talking about limiting others choices because someone prefers to ride around with their knees in their chest is Un- American as far as I am concerned. I do not judge those who choose this form of transportation, just don't tell me that I don't need what I want.

[kawalekm]

The car company line that they can't sell diesels in the US is just another bad decision in a long line of bad decisions that the car companies have been making. The truth is that the diesel market here in California is so hot that there have been waiting lists. Can't market diesels? That's #ull#hit!

I've been watching threads about gas prices, cash for clunkers, ect and what I've concluded is that America still has an absurd sense of entitlement when it comes to cars. I see so many lame excuses why each of them NEEDS a 3 ton SUV. I would guess that 90% have never even touched a towing hitch, so the real reason is the big cars/trucks strokes their ego's/manhood/fantasies, ect. I for one would love a diesel focus/civic/forester/metro whatever. I'm six-one/240lbs but I still fit into a Honda civic. And, I can drive a stick-shift, even in southern California commuter traffic. I am MAN enough to drive a small car!

[gunsmoke]

the main reason we don't have small diesel vehicles in the u.s. is the good old epa -


:yes2:


OOPS! Someone hit the head on the nail. All government regulation is driven by political correctness, public relations and self-preservation much more so than real science, common sense, and the common weal.


:yes2:

[chrisser]

Southern California commuter traffic?

There must be a special type of hubris to someone who thinks that the paradigm of Southern California driving can be applied to the rest of the country, and that anyone who makes choices that don't work in Southern California is some sort of egotistical girlie man.

You may want to consider that the areas of the country epitomized by the term "Backwoods Home" bare little resemblance to Southern California and that might drive radically different choices in vehicles.


Some people - many of which inhabit this board - have to do things with their vehicles that are not really possible with your Accord.

Like:

- Hauling gravel, plywood, lumber, sacks of feed, fertilizer, or seed
- Traversing muddy terrain to haul parts to the tractor that needs repair at the far corner of the property.
- Crossing the stream that cuts across the driveway to get to the house
- Plowing several feet of snow off the driveway to get to the street, and then having to plow part of the street to get into town
- Hauling livestock bought or sold
- Hauling produce to/from market

There are vast swaths of this country where the above is a regular part of day to day living - and you don't have to live in the middle of nowhere to need to do one or more of the above on a regular basis.

[kawalekm]

I'm sure that you do use your big truck to haul supplies and navigate open ground. I'm not saying that YOU can't have a big truck. I myself have a Ford F350. BUT, I don't use it for daily commuting. The big truck stays parked while I drive my little commuter each day.

However, I think it is very safe to say that 99% of the SUV's on the road today (at least here in California) have NEVER hauled gravel, NEVER driven off a paved road, never crossed a stream, Never plowed snow, or EVER hauled livestock/produce a foot. So what DO these people have an SUV for?