biodiesel fuel from sunflower seeds

[crafty2002]

There was a site I looked at several months back,
http://www.oilcrusher.5u.com/
but I can't seem to be able to pull it up any more. The guy showed his whole operation and he made his own fuel for all his tractors for his farm and he had a large farm, somewhere up north.
He used a screw press he bought from china no less, (but hey, he makes his own fuel) run it through some kind of strainer, and added 10 to 15% regular gas to it and got 25 - 40% more power and fuel mileage from it.
He has done all kinds of scientific test that is over my head but still what he said made perfect sense.
It's driving me crazy looking for the link again because I want to build a tractor using a 14 HP diesel engine I found for $1,395.
Last year I took the deck off of a 10 HP lawn mower, put tractor lugged ATV tires on it, and built a bottom plow for it. It worked great until I hooked a pipe and busted the transaxle.
It sure would be nice to plant the 20 acre field I have back here and two or three of them be all the fuel I need except for 10% gas.

[crafty2002]

Something told me if I did this I could click on that link and it would pop up and it did.
Anyone that has any land they can plant should read this site. Yeehaw.
Dennis

[crafty2002]

Has anyone followed the link yet??? I see a few looked at the thread but no one has posted anything yet.
I know it would take a major operation to make enough fuel to drive your car coming and going to work every day, etc., but I am just thinking about it being enough to grow the food to feed a small army of family and friends.
They say one acre is enough to grow food for one person and I know there are a lot of fields just setting now.
We are even importing food, as if oil and the walmart gadgets weren't enough. I think shortly most Americans are going to be in for a big surprise when they try to buy food.
And what is really worrying me is what if we can't even get gas for tillers etc.
Well, I just thought I would throw this out for people to see.
Dennis

[CarolAnn]

Crafty - that site is superb! It could make the difference for many farmers - of swimming or sinking. I wish I had the chemistry background to fully understand what he said - but he sure SOUNDS like he knows what he's talking about!

I'm going to send your link to my big brothers! They know more about this stuff and it'll be great for a round-robin email discussion!

[walls0stone]

I dissagree with the whole natural fuel idea. You can't make a fuel from corn or beans or whatever that takes more energy to make than it makes in turn. I don't know any farmers who have another moment in the day for making fuel. No offenc Carol I'm just dissagreeing...

Natral gas cars are the way to GO!!!

I was on 5 drilling sights today, all with in 5 miles of each other.

[crafty2002]

wallsOstone, I pretty much wonder about most "homegrown fuel" but this farmer started pressing seeds in April of 2006 and has already made and used over 15,000 gallons of it, if what he says is true, and he lays it out pretty well. Everything included he says that the finished product cost him about 2 bucks a gallon and that is counting wages for someone to run it 24/7's, plus he still has the meal from the pressed seed for his cattle feed. That is at least 4 paychecks he is creating for people that can't get a better job anywhere in todays economy.
He has his press running 24/7's and making a little more than 25 gallons per hour. That is 600 gallons a day that doesn't come from outside the country.
With diesel fuel running @ about $4 a gallon he is saving 2 bucks a gallon on what he uses plus he presses for other farmers in the area for even more "extra cash" . If the price climbs to 6 bucks a gallon, he will be saving 4 bucks a gallon. Means he is paying 33 cent to 50 cent on a dollar while everyone else is paying the whole buck.
And it sounds like he has a huge farm and cattle operation if he has used 15,000 gallons of his own fuel so far in a little over two years.
I don't see how anyone could be against that.
I talked to the guy on the phone one time about a year ago but haven't ever been able to get him again. We talked maybe 10-15 minutes and I didn't understand 1/2 of what he was saying. It was just over my head and he got a little perterbed at me, ??? oh well, but he dang sure sounds like he knew what he was talking about.
He did tell me there wasn't any use in doing what I wanted to do, which was build a regular hyd. press with a large steel basket that would hold about a bushell on each press.
He said I wouldn't get 10 % of the oil from it. And I never did find out where he got his screw presses from. He talked too fast and I can't hear good.
So for what it worth, I think this guy is on to something good.
Dennis

[annabella1]

A lot of this is covered in journey to forever even the best type of sunflowers to plant for quality oil, and easy ways to process it. I don't agree with his attitude towards homemade bio diesel. The waste products are glycerin which is not toxic and can be used for a lot of things, and methanol which can be recovered and used for making more bio diesel. He is using gasoline to thin the oil so it will burn in his diesel engines and talks a lot about how you have to get the amounts just right or you will have problems so if you can't duplicate his process, he can just say you got the amounts wrong. If you have any questions about bio diesel check out this link:
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

[Curbie]

I finally got a little time to read this web-site and the piece that got my attention was:

"Unlike the chemical process that the bio-fuel fellows use, I keep the glycerin in the oil for the added power output. The difference is almost 40% gain with some engines with greater power and mileage than commercial bio-diesel with the glycerin taken out."

He seems to using the gasoline just to thin the oil based on the projected ambient temperature at which the fuel needs to be feed to the diesel.

Since he seems to be suggesting that the fuel's purity and viscosity it all that's really important, then why not just use a fuel heater for viscosity and skip the addition of gasoline altogether?

Cubie

[kawalekm]

Since he seems to be suggesting that the fuel's purity and viscosity it all that's really important, then why not just use a fuel heater for viscosity and skip the addition of gasoline altogether?


Sounds like what he is doing is running straight veg oil that's thinned slightly with gasoline to run in an un-modified engine. You can have a diesel vehicle converted to running straight oil, but you are right, you need a fuel pre-heater to thin it to go through the injectors. The bad part of that is that you need two tanks, one regular diesel to start, and the second tank for veg oil. You start up on regular diesel and wait till the engine reaches operating temperature. Then it's hot enough to run the veg fuel.

If he thins the oil with gasoline, that might make the fuel thin enough to go through the injectors at startup, so a dual fuel system is not needed. Personally, I would be scared to death of putting any gasoline at all through a diesel engine.

[DM]

The Deutz tractors i've owned, and still own, in the manual it tells you how much gas to mix in #2 diesel, to thin it down for winter use. The gas will keep the wax from forming and clogging the fuel filter. It was an accepted practise on old diesels...

DM

[Curbie]

Sounds like what he is doing is running straight veg oil that's thinned slightly with gasoline to run in an un-modified engine. You can have a diesel vehicle converted to running straight oil, but you are right, you need a fuel pre-heater to thin it to go through the injectors. The bad part of that is that you need two tanks, one regular diesel to start, and the second tank for veg oil. You start up on regular diesel and wait till the engine reaches operating temperature. Then it's hot enough to run the veg fuel.

If he thins the oil with gasoline, that might make the fuel thin enough to go through the injectors at startup, so a dual fuel system is not needed. Personally, I would be scared to death of putting any gasoline at all through a diesel engine.
Does the diesel conversion you referred to consist of just the duel fuel tanks and cold-weather kit, or are you referring to more?

I share your concern about thinning vegetable oil with gasoline.

Curbie

[Curbie]

The Deutz tractors i've owned, and still own, in the manual it tells you how much gas to mix in #2 diesel, to thin it down for winter use. The gas will keep the wax from forming and clogging the fuel filter. It was an accepted practise on old diesels...DM
I don't disagree for a moment that thinning #2 diesel with gasoline is in the manual or a recommend and accepted practice, what concerns me is the initial cold-weather viscosity difference between #2 diesel and pure vegetable oil AND the percentage of gasoline required by pure vegetable oil to achieve proper #2 diesel viscosity.

Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something here, but it would seems like vastly different percentages of gasoline for thinning #2 diesel and pure vegetable oil?

Wouldn't we be adding an unwanted increase in volatility, to achieve a wanted (or necessary) in increase viscosity?

Curbie

[DM]

I don't know that "thinning" is the right word to use? All oil WILL go through a diesels "injectors", it's not even about that. By the time it leaves the injectors, it's under so much pressure, "thinning" isn't the problem. Diesels are "compression ignition" engines, and the problem is, pure oil, unlike diesel doesn't get hot enough under compression to start the engine.

Gas is added to #2 diesel to keep the fuel from "waxxing". This is why you switch to #1, or in extreme cases Kerosene, as they don't have the wax...and that's also why fuel economy goes down when using those fuels. #2 diesel has the most wax, and that = more but's of energy per gallon.

On a side note: The wax also is a lube, so using a lot of kero in a diesel (no wax) is very hard on most injection pumps. In Alaska, they rebuild the pumps with what's called an "artic kit", the parts are made to withstand the lack of wax in kero, so it can be used in the extreme cold of the far north.

Now, we are at veggie oil, and i don't know what adding gas to that does, but i bet you a small amount won't hurt a thing...

I pour oil into my diesel and run it! Even veggie oil.

DM

[Curbie]

I don't know that "thinning" is the right word to use?
I think we're on the same page page, but I'm still a little confused after reading your last post and am hoping you can clear up my confusion. My understanding from research is:

There are two issues that diesel have to deal with in this area, volatility and viscosity.

Volatility is needed to START "compression ignition" engines.

Viscosity (or lack thereof) is needed for fuel flow from the tank, through filters, to the injectors. ("cloud", "pour", "gel" or "wax" points)

My understanding is that once a diesel has been started and is providing heat the the pure vegetable oil fuel tank and lines to maintain the proper viscosity that diesels will continue running fine by switching to pure vegetable oil.

What do I have goofed up here?

Thanks,

Curbie

[DM]

My understanding is that once a diesel has been started and is providing heat the the pure vegetable oil fuel tank and lines to maintain the proper viscosity that diesels will continue running fine by switching to pure vegetable oil.

What do I have goofed up here?


Nothing that i can see...

A side note would be, that "todays" diesels, with all their sending units for their puters, may or may not like veggie oil... My diesels do NOT have any sending units, so i can run what i want, and not have to worry about that.

DM

[Curbie]

My diesels do NOT have any sending units, so i can run what i want, and not have to worry about that.
Do you have a small diesel engine recommendation that would seem to be conducive for conversion to for use with vegetable oil, say one for stable and one for variable RPM duty, both in the 10-14Hp range?

Thanks,

Curbie

[DM]

Do you have a small diesel engine recommendation that would seem to be conducive for conversion to for use with vegetable oil, say one for stable and one for variable RPM duty, both in the 10-14Hp range? It will run on diesel, veggie oil, or even well filtered used motor oil...

Thanks,

Curbie

For what use??? Generator? All of the small diesels made today have aluminum in them, and IMO that's NOT the longest lasting design...

Deutz made/makes? a 2 cyl air cooled diesel (about 30hp) that's all iron and would last about a life time, and do it on very low fuel use. I have one in a tractor, and it's a GREAT diesel.

http://www.fototime.com/EFA1D36BC75A7B2/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/B01691175A9D243/orig.jpg

They sold/sell? them as stationary engines too, and i see them around from time to time.

With the extra hp, you could slow the rpm's down, and gear up what ever your running. That way the diesel would use less fuel and last even longer.

Why not buy a tractor and power what ever you want with it with the pto? You'd then still have the tractor for "other" uses too...

DM

[Curbie]

For what use??? Generator? All of the small diesels made today have aluminum in them, and IMO that's NOT the longest lasting design...stable RPM for generator and/or general purpose hydraulic pump and one for variable RPM for a home-scale (5 acre) garden tractor.

I would prefer cast iron also.

Curbie

[kawalekm]

Viscosity (or lack thereof) is needed for fuel flow from the tank, through filters, to the injectors. ("cloud", "pour", "gel" or "wax" points)

My understanding is that once a diesel has been started and is providing heat the the pure vegetable oil fuel tank and lines to maintain the proper viscosity that diesels will continue running fine by switching to pure vegetable oil.

What do I have goofed up here?
Curbie
I believe that the fuel's viscosity (thickness/thinness) is the issue for modern diesels, like my Ford F-350. Even at room temperature operation, the veg oil is too thick to atomize properly through the injectors. The bio-diesel conversion process that removes the glycerol molecule is making fatty esters that are thinner than the parent veg oil. Older (a lot older) diesels could digest a bigger variety of fuels because they didn't have the sensitive high pressure injectors and computer controls that modern diesels have.

The conversion kits that are being marketed now have a heat exchanger mounted on either the exhaust manifold, or passed through the radiator, to heat the veg oil to approximately 180F. Hot veg oil at that temperature has the same viscosity as room temp diesel and will pass through the injectors properly.

Cold weather gelling is just another issue that makes veg oil even worse. The gelled wax in the fuel plugs up the filters/lines/injectors to stop the engine dead in it's tracks. I was going to school at the University of Idaho back in the early 80's and can remember some of the very first bio-diesel research being done there. They had the university's experimental farm tractor running on veg oil, but the tractor had to be parked inside a heated shed so it could be started in winter.

[DM]

stable RPM for generator and/or general purpose hydraulic pump and one for variable RPM for a home-scale (5 acre) garden tractor.

I would prefer cast iron also.

Curbie

It seems a small tractor like the above Deutz, would be "perfect" for your needs then. It has the govenor you need, it already has an hydraulic pump, and is already a tractor ready to do service in your garden, or around the homestead.

DM

[Curbie]

I believe that the fuel's viscosity (thickness/thinness) is the issue for modern diesels...
Michael,

Thanks for the post, my research closely mirrors your post with one caveat; I think DM makes a valid point on volatility.

I'm thinking a duel tank, one for start-up with proper volatility and one heated by the running engine for proper viscosity to switch over the running engine to pure vegetable oil for operational use. I think cold weather operation would require a third switch over back to the volatility tank to purge the fuel system of pure vegetable oil to prevent fuel gelling/waxing after shutdown.

DM,

Thanks for the recommendation.

Curbie

[Curbie]

Maybe a little fly in the pure vegetable oil ointment, in my opinion it goes back to DM's point on fuel volatility in "compression ignition" engines.

There are web-report (for what they're worth) that operating a diesel on pure vegetable oil can, over time, cause carbon deposits on both pistons and cylinder heads. This carbon build-up causing a rise in compression ratio and resulting in pre-ignition, knock, power-loss, and engine damage if not properly cared for.

These web-reports suggest this carbon deposit issue can affect a diesel after 500-600 hours of use with pure vegetable oil and the cures range from manually cleaning the combustion chamber, a diet of bio-diesel, water injection under load, and fuel additives.

I don't view this as a idea "Killer" but the concept makes sense, so it seems to be something to be aware of.

Curbie

[Curbie]

Ok, I got to thinking about this plan so I contacted the plan's inventor to chat with him directly, I think I now have a pretty good handle on his theory and think it may have merit, although I'm thinking about some slight changes.

As pointed of here, even some diesel manuals recommend thinning diesel with gas for cold weather operation, so the idea added a little gas doesn’t concern me, but normal operation on a 50/50 mix seems both unnecessary and risky. I would be far more comfortable with the idea of thinning the SVO with just enough gasoline for proper volatility to prevent compression-chamber carbon-buildup and than using just enough pre-heat to compensate for proper viscosity for ANY ambient temperature, both while preserving the best level of lubricity. I was thinking that running diesels in a dual tank environment, one tank for starting-fuel (and shutdown) and the other for normal operating temperature fuel.

I was thinking of setting the specific gravity of the SVO/Gas mix for the starting-fuel for whatever the actual current ambient temperature was and a fixing the SVO/Gas mix of the operating-fuel to a set ambient temperature of say 70°F (regardless of the actual ambient temperature) and than heating the fuel in the heated fuel tank to a temperature of say 150°F.

Anyway I'm vetting idea with some users of this plan for feedback, I'll see what that turns up?

Curbie

[kawalekm]

I was thinking of setting the specific gravity of the SVO/Gas mix for the starting-fuel for whatever the actual current ambient temperature was and a fixing the SVO/Gas mix of the operating-fuel to a set ambient temperature of say 70°F (regardless of the actual ambient temperature) and than heating the fuel in the heated fuel tank to a temperature of say 150°F.

I would caution you though that specific gravity may not be a good measure of volatility! Another very important issue is getting the viscosity of the fuel correct for the sake of the fuel pump and injectors. To measure the thickness of your fuel you need a viscometer like this.
http://www.vwrsp.com/catalog/product/index.cgi?catalog_number=52946-606&inE=1&highlight=52946-606

Rather than mixing your own fuel on the fly, maybe your best option would be to get one of the conversion kits installed in your vehicle, and let the kit's chip decide how to manage the fuel. The chip can monitor engine temp, rpm, ect and decide when it's optimal to switch to veg fuel.

[Curbie]

I would caution you though that specific gravity may not be a good measure of volatility! Another very important issue is getting the viscosity of the fuel correct for the sake of the fuel pump and injectors. To measure the thickness of your fuel you need a viscometer like this.
http://www.vwrsp.com/catalog/product/index.cgi?catalog_number=52946-606&inE=1&highlight=52946-606

Michael,

Good point! I'm going to see if I can find a test for the proper measurement or volatility for diesel fuel.

Thanks,

Curbie

[Curbie]

The Deutz tractors i've owned, and still own, in the manual it tells you how much gas to mix in #2 diesel, to thin it down for winter use. The gas will keep the wax from forming and clogging the fuel filter. It was an accepted practise on old diesels...
DM,

I'm still toying with this SVO/Gas mixing idea, do you recall from your Deutz manual, what Deutz's minimum and maximum gas to #2 diesel suggested percentages or ratios were?

Thanks,

Curbie

[DM]

It was only suggested you use it in the "winter" to keep the #2 diesel from gelling... Also, keep in mind, these are old manuals, for older diesels...

DM

[Curbie]

I would caution you though that specific gravity may not be a good measure of volatility! Another very important issue is getting the viscosity of the fuel correct for the sake of the fuel pump and injectors.
Michael,

My research kicked up an old Lister manual, in it they give performance specifications for fuels to be run in their diesel.

Lister Fuel Specifications

Test......................Temperate............Tro pical
Specific Gravity..........0.93.................0.90
Open Flash Point..........410°F (210°C)........425°F (218°C)
Viscosity at 70°F (21°C)..1035 Redwood Seconds.2000 Redwood Seconds.
Viscosity at 140°F (60°C)..112 Redwood Seconds..175 Redwood Seconds.
Viscosity at 212°F (100°C)..46 Redwood Seconds...58 Redwood Seconds.

Also tracked down the specifications for the "Open Flash Point" and "Redwood" tests, let me know if you or any one else is interested in them.

Curbie