Either or;

[kmccune]

Greetings freethinkers& sojourners why reinvent the wheel on a lot of this stuff? A lot of these ideas are very good-even the farout merits consideration,I will never laugh at you.@ this stage in my life I consider the 95% rule I made up" if its 95% as good for 50% or less, thats the way I go" some are so anal about things( bordering on OCD) that I know "Tempus fugit " applies to my doings now.When I was young I sorta lived in the third world-you know carrying water, chopping wood, a path,sleepng with siblings,etc.The point is when the lights went out, it was no big deal.you could still stay warm,slop the hogs,eat a hot supper etc. If SHTF now I would probaly feel different-but our CO-OP the BARC has grown so efficient & responsive what used to be days without power, is usually a cuople of hours. My point is " spirit of independence,not withstanding" how about just enough backup solar or wind to run a workshop or lights and a radio & enough heat for fun or to keep the pipes from freezing.We are total electric right now and the bill runs around $250 a month in the winter. (I do believe electricity does have the capacity to be the best utility bargain in the future) So why completly? why not supplement and be content?Iam building a stove room right now for comfort and to keep the other 2000sq ft livable if the power goes out. Anyway what do you guys think& what are your plans and expectations?-Kevin

[Anon001]

why reinvent the wheel on a lot of this stuff?
Kevin,... lol... Using solar or going 100% off grid is not reinventing the wheel. For many, it is the only viable option. For others, it is the sense of indepndence and not being dependent on anyone else which is my case. For that $250 you spend on electric, is money in the bank for me, less the $13.00 per month payback on my 100% off grid solar system.

When I was young I sorta lived in the third world-you know *carrying water, chopping wood, a path,sleepng with siblings,etc.
So... are you comparing self-sufficiency to third world living? If so, you will raise hackles on a lot of people on these forums. It is by far nothing like living third world. Being self-sufficient is old order....dependency on others for ALL your needs is new order and bad frickin idea. Look where it has a lot of people today..... If shtf and if for example in the dead of winter, some rogue country lobbed a nuclear bomb on New York in the dead of winter.... How many people do you think would starve and freeze to death? A great many! Because they didn't know how to take care of themselves. They expected someone else to take care of them and bury their head in the sand!

The point is when the lights went out, it was *no big deal.you could still stay warm,slop the hogs,eat a hot supper etc. If SHTF now I would probaly feel different-but our CO-OP the BARC has grown so efficient & responsive what used to be days without power, is usually a cuople of hours.
For one thing, have you been through an ice storm that knocked out power for two weeks in your area? your BARC wouldn't be able to speed up power restoration any quicker than anywhere else...
My point is " spirit of independence,not withstanding" how about just enough backup solar or wind to run a workshop or lights and a radio & enough heat for fun or to keep the pipes from freezing.
The flaw in your logic shows that you have no understanding of alternative energy. You won't put together "just nough solar or wind" to run a furnace. It can't happen...

I do believe electricity does have the capacity to be the best utility bargain in the future)
Do you? And where do you get your information? The REC coops are not under the same regulations in many states as the public utilities and can make many arbitrary decisions that will not be made with your best interest at heart. I know from experience. But, I would like to see your information source.
So why completly? why not supplement and be content?
Why completely? Tell us why not. I am more content with my independence and my own power production that if I was having to spend $250 per month to let some big corporate utility (REC here) dictate my need and drain my pockets....

Iam building a stove room right now for comfort and to keep the other 2000sq ft *livable if the power goes out.
And if you are going to that expense, why not use it for your primary source of heat? Also, are you going to use a wood stove or a pellet stove or a corn stove? You do realize that although corn and pellets are easier, cleaner and much less work, you are at the mercy of the costs of buying corn and pellets and if you lose electricity, then what turns the auger? I hope you are planning to use wood.

Anyway what do you guys think& what are your plans and expectations?-Kevin
My plans are to keep doing what I'm doing. I am 100% off grid and have been since May 1998. I have everything anyone else has... a computer & printer, TV (although I don't watch it), DVD player, microwave, Bose stereo, lights, phone with answering machine,.... and my solar payback just went up from about $9.00 per month to $13.00 per month ( replaced 6 1/2 year old battery bank). That is a lot more attractive than $250 per month.

.....and I'm NOT living like the third world and I've worked my a** off to get where I'm at and with several health problems. So, I certainly don't appreciate being compared to people living in huts in third world countries with no power. When my neighbors lose power, I don't.

I hope the tone of my reply doesn't offend you but I was offended by being compared to third world living and not being content.

For comparison's sake.... Take your 2000+ sq. ft house, most likely with a mortgage and take your vehicles...etc.. everything you own. Compare your net worth to mine and I bet you are sinking..... I am debt-free. I have about 240 acres on 3 farms.... the last one was cash. I did have about 80 cow/calf pairs(160) head plus bulls. I am down to 30 pair but will be back up to 50 by the end of the year and back to 80 by the end of next year. ALL DEBT FREE.... I am actually starting to build a little "wealth"(LOL).... and you?
.........Where has your dependence on others taken you?

[kmccune]

Nowhere really,$250 a month for total utilities isnt really bad-beats the hell out of a $30,000 solar eletric system that requires maintenence and nowhere did I say anything about the rest of the group being third world-What I said was- I 've been close to the third world-no way in the world could I afford a bunch of land like that.I,'ve had my share of butchering and livestock raising.Cut firewood all my life,not particularly fond of it.Besides I was trying to get a discussion going-been there done that.Yes our electric company is exceptional,they even travel around the country helping other districts out-when things get bad. Never underestimate the Barc-what I was trying to say was you can have a backup-I know Mennonites who have been off the grid all there lives they dont live 3rd world either-Kevin

[kmccune]

:)Oh,about electricity maybe being one the bargains in the future-there are several new technologies waiting to come on line-provided the Luddites allow it and firewood is everywhere- around here& none of it belongs to me-Kevin

[kmccune]

Oh by the way its not hard to turn the auger on a pellet stove overnight anyway an inverter and lead acid storage battery will usually suffice till the power comes back at least overnight.The last time we had a 5 day power outage was in mid October1979 when the heavy wet snow broke the trees down because of the foilage still oo the trees believe me these guys are really aggressive on right of way maintenence

[Anon001]

Nowhere really,$250 a month for total utilities isnt really bad-beats the hell out of a $30,000 *solar eletric system that requires maintenence

For one thing my solar system cost me less than $2,000 and the only maintenance it requires is keeping the batteries clean and topping them off a couple times a year.... that does beat the heck out of $250 per month.... people with that type of utility cost is enslaved to the mega utility corporations and don't even realize it....

[kmccune]

Well you got the bargain of the century-YES THIS 250 BUCKS IS MY TOTAL UTILITY COST IN THE WORST PART OF THE WINTER WITH NO EFFORT TO SAVE ANY ELECTRICITY. I 've had to live in the elements most of my life .and I consider electricity a bargain-Looked at a guys total solar setup the other day,he probaly had close to 50 solar panels plus a backup generator-I imagine he has a bit more then 2K in his setup,I have seen something on a solar site I would like to have if I had the spare cash a solar powered deepfreeze with a dedicated solar panel and I think a 15 yr warrenty.I'm not throwing off or picking on you dude-but around here a total solar electric system is gonna run around 30K, the accumulators are not going to last forever either.I can heat water with anything that produces heat.I just dont mind spending 1K a year on energy-around here with our average well depth of 600' I would hook to townwater if it was availible-When I started this post it was in no way shape or form to belittle anyone ;) I know its depending on someone else for comfort,but I love my modern conveniences-didnt have this stuff when I was a kid-Kevin

[DM]

I've always said, "if" those that are "dreaming" to go off grid, would live right now "like they ARE off grid", their electric bill would be so LOW, they would soon forget all about going off grid!

DM

[Anon001]

It is so much more than just the electric bill. I prefer the independence. When my neighbors were without power for two weeks due to an ice storm in Dec 07, I didn't know it until I turned on the weather radio and heard the announcements of locations for the emergency shelters. I was still sittting here on my computer. It is all about independence. For many it is about going green.... Not so much for me, though.
Paul

[kmccune]

this is true,when I was single (admittedly a few years back)I have brought my light bill down to less then $20 a month.Did realize too, that I couldn't save the world singlehandingly,I'm still green to a certain extent- but I don't pay much attention to Mr Gore. Dont mind a bit of recycling and trash pickup
(actually enjoy picking up litter back permitting)Solar is the best and our common legacy-Kevin

[kmccune]

And it is real nice to go on business as usual when things turn bad,would you believe that our school system has no backup generating capacity I'm told-so much for civil defense. On my wish list-less government and a return of state sovereignty-Kevin

[Anon001]

your school has no back up generator or anything? WOW Ours do here... or I thought they did.

[kmccune]

Thats what they tell me,but my daughter just informed that they do in the main buildings.They still cancel everything when the power goes off-maybe it has something to do with the budget crunch,now there is talk of closing an elementary school and the administration building and selling it and sharing a principal -Kevin

[12vman]

Until you cut the umbilical cord, you are controlled in one way or the other. Your life is centered around that wire coming from the pole and it sure would be a big inconvenience if you lost it for any length of time.

I could take my house and move it down the road several miles and it would still work as well as it does here.. with no strings (wires) attached. Just plop it down anywhere the sun shines and the rain can hit the roof and I'm good to go.

It's a mindset. The grid is/can be cheaper and provide more options and comforts but I like being independent myself. I can't imagine living in a conventional home and losing power for 2 years with no options or back up. Even if it was just an option or back up, do you believe it could supply you with everything you need for 2 years? Just a thought..

[kmccune]

Nah, all I wanted was a little backup without having to listen to generator running.Some people cant do without the grid.I know a guy not to far from here who kept fighting the utility to run him a several thousand$ powerline-so he could get on the grid and do away with his China Diesel.
As for me-if I lived by myself ,would certainly love to be off grid.There are new batteries on the horizon, listened to a scientist talking about them this morning-Kevin