Running out of oil?

[Ozarkguy]

.

Just my thoughts on this whole running out of oil and energy crisis stuff...

Yes. We have bio-diesel, solar, fuel cells and more on the horizen. ;D

Bottom line is if we wind up at war with these countries that hate us and they turn the spigot off NOW, we're screwed. :(

Ten years from now we will be well on our way, (or there) with alternative fuels and energy sources. 8)

BUT there IS more than 60 countries that hate us at the moment and know our weak spot is oil. So if they turn off the supply, or another country or two stops the shipments or blows up several refineries at once, we are in BIG doo-doo! :P

A few years from now we'll be o.k., but if "it" hits the fan tomorrow or next month, (or even next year), look out! :'(


Ozarkguy

.

[Tightwad]

Yes, Peak oil is a problem for the world as a whole.
However America has an ace in the hole that we have
in abundance.........COAL. *A conservative est. of our
coal reserves is......more than Saudi Arabia & Kuwait
total oil reserves BEFORE we started pumping when
the oil fieids we new!!

Sen. Obama(D-Il) & Sen Bunning (R-Ky) have introduced a bill that
would build 10 coal to liquid conversion plants INLAND OFF THE
GULF COAST to make coal diesel fuels. With the plants coming
on line about 1 a year America should do Ok if we can stop all
this williy-nilly one loaf of bread driving. As soon as this becomes
a hot button issue just watch all the politico's jump on *the band
wagon.

In the mean time get used to planning ALL your car use to conserve
fuels. I think it will be the way we all drive in 10 years or less.

http://obama.senate.gov/press/060607-senators_obama_and_bunning_introduce_legislation_t o_expand_coal_use/index.html

[oldnndway]

" BUT there IS more than 60 countries that hate us at the moment and know our weak spot is oil. "

Must not be the time of year for our government to send their checks.

(they get real friendly when they are accepting Americas "Foreign Aid" )

[Ozarkguy]

.

"Must not be the time of year for our government to send their checks."

Aint THAT the truth! The saddest part is many of them use the funds not to feed their people, but to arm their militants!

.

[Frank]

as early as the mid-60s, there have been fully functional cars running on alternative fuels, such as water.
a few years ago a man from Asia build one and it was shown on a science show how he filleld up on water and had a converted engine and such.
all of sudden, man and machine disappeared.
wonder why?
some jewish controlled oil companies
'took care' of business.
(you fool still stand up for that scum).
the us is the world largest oil user, because both the oil companies and the car makers are of the same kind.
should there be government/jewish mad shortage of oil, all of us will have to pay for it once more.
and you still don't see the writing on the wall.

[oldnndway]

Frank I was thinking (up until about half-way through) that this was the first pleasant, conversant post I've ever seen from you and then ...BLAM ... you hit us with another zinger.
Oh well.

[jim]

A buddy of mine (petrolium geologist) that is like a brother to me says that peak oil is BS. We have enough for another 200 years at current use levels. Technology will take over long before that.

If we want alternative fules fast and of high quality all we have to do is give the makers tax credits and tax none of their profits, and we'll be in full production in less than one year. This would be a very small price to pay for an energy secure country.Of course, the bureaucRATS won't allow that.

jim

[Tightwad]

A buddy of mine (petroleum geologist) that is like a brother to me says that peak oil is BS. We have enough for another 200 years at current use levels. Technology will take over long before that.

If we want alternative fuels fast and of high quality all we have to do is give the makers tax credits and tax none of their profits, and we'll be in full production in less than one year. This would be a very small price to pay for an energy secure country.Of course, the bureaucRATS won't allow that.

jim

Your post is correct on many points.jim. However, the one point that
needs to be talked up alot more it the "When" is oil going to run out.

I'm not saying that you friend is wrong on the timetable for true oil
depletion but if you think about it telling people that that day is
within 20 yrs forces changes that will be needed long before they
are. People who are "to" comfortable won't change anything and
will blindly run into the wall unless you prick them enough to make
them a bit afraid. It's a good white lie if you will.

Sen.Obama & Brunning know this and are trying to get coal to liquid
program started now to make our own coal based diesel fuels. So it's
really not to smart to tell people that there's "plenty of oil left" if you
think about it.

One thing is for sure.......There IS a limited about of oil on the planet
With evermore demand that end day will happen that much sooner.
So those countries that get their populations in line & on line will
suffer the least. I'd rather America be on the leading edge of that
eventual change than in the back of the pack. Wouldn't you?

So instead of tellin everyone that they can ignore Peak Oil just
tell them that we must prepare for the change which is true. Also
tell your short sighted friend the same thing 'cause he ain't doing
anyone any favors by telling them peak oil is BS.

[JeffColorado]

Bad news for all who think bio fuels is our salvation - we can't even come close to growing enough to make what we need and still feed the population. Rarely does anyone make not of that.

Also, did anyone catch the French company who have come up with the compressed air engine? Performs the same as the best electric cars on the market today, that is to say, 50 miles on a "fill up" and 55 to 60 MPH. Of course we pollute running the compressor to make the compressed air.

[Tightwad]

Bad news for all who think bio fuels is our salvation - we can't even come close to growing enough to make what we need and still feed the population. Rarely does anyone make not of that.

Also, did anyone catch the French company who have come up with the compressed air engine? Performs the same as the best electric cars on the market today, that is to say, 50 miles on a "fill up" and 55 to 60 MPH. Of course we pollute running the compressor to make the compressed air.


Yes, it's kinda hard to "feed" people & "fuel" people with only one
crop or "biomass" needed to fertilze the food/fuel crop. :o :o
Kinda like the chicken or the egg story.........Round & round 'till
you're dizzy.

That said, we're likley to see all sorts of hair brained schemes for transport engines. ::) ::)

[jim]

So my friend and I are "short-sighted" because we won't lie about a situation? ::) I can't go with that. Truth is always better, and more people need to start showing some integrity. I may not be right, but I always believe I am, or I don't take the stance. Most here are like that. We've plenty of time to change over, and stampeading the population will only cause trouble and cost a lot more money.

I'm all for anything new that will work, and we should go for what works and disgard the rest.
jim

[Tightwad]

What a shame. Try as one might it seems that no one can
reason with you. No one. So one can just quit trying and
remove you from our board..... to ignore.

One thought that for a brief moment agreement to discuss topics was
at hand. Sorry to say you were not up the task. It's always one
smart pants shot after the other with you. Oh, well......

[jim]

Should I have left out the ::)?

jim

[billy_goat_gruff]

"All war is based on deception." *Sun Tzu

Although it might mess up the list what with a registered democrat on it, can I be on that list with jim, Tightwad? *(you are a registered republican, aren't you, jim?)

I just hate people making war on me without me knowing it... *>:( * >:( * >:( :D

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

[oldnndway]

Hey, I am a registered Democrat and most likely always will be.

[oldnndway]

(have to be a democrat to vote in the local primaries, where most of the local elections are decided)

"Should I have left out the ? "

I don't think it makes any difference Jim.

Same MO, different name.

[jim]

Yup I'm a Republican. With a few exceptions, the ones here in Texas are pretty good. Evidently, that's not the case all over the US.

Hays County is pretty much controlled by the Democrats (some of them ain't too bad either), but that's changing as the new Sheriff is a Republican, and has been for a while. I suspect that the last one was a closet Republican, but can't bet on it.


jim

[Tightwad]

CLICK LINK TO READ ENTIRE STORY.........
http://www.energybulletin.net/22129.html

PREVIEW OF STORY..........
Every now and again, a senior oil company executive speaks optimistically to some august gathering about all the oil that is left. This time the honor fell to Stephen Pryor, president of ExxonMobil Refining. Speaking to a conference in Houston, Mr. Pryor stridently asserted that "energy resources are adequate to sustain growth— we are not peak oil people." At the mention of the bogeyman, "peak oil," the reporter covering the speech, or at least his editor, felt impelled to add a few words of explanation: "proponents of peak oil argue that the world has already tapped most of the easy-to-find deposits and that the drop in supplies combined with ever-growing demand point toward inevitably higher prices that will eventually hamper global economic growth." Actually, the reporter did a nice job in capturing the essence of peak oil.
The speaker then backs up his assertion by saying that the world has thus far produced 1 trillion barrels of oil and that there are still 4 trillion left. The average listener is left with the impression that oil shortages are centuries or at worst lifetimes away.
Of course, based on what we currently know about he earth's oil resources, the "4 trillion barrels left" is really a stretch bordering on irresponsible. The first 2 trillion are supposed to be reserves of conventional oil. This number is based on a badly flawed US Geologic Survey study produced a few years back that attempted to estimate the world's remaining conventional oil resources.
The major flaw was the authors' assumption that existing and not-yet-discovered fields would eventually turn out to contain much more oil than originally estimated. While it was true many decades ago that the ultimate size of newly discovered oil fields was often seriously underestimated, modern geologic techniques have markedly reduced initial overestimates.
Someday soon it will be obvious to all that the "4 trillion barrels" of reserve exist only in the minds of Exxon speechwriters and not in the ground. To keep repeating this fable may be good for Exxon's stock and the morale of its employees, but it certainly is not helping America prepare for oil depletion.

[JeffColorado]

Does this really count as a political thread?

[Tightwad]

Does this really count as a political thread?

With oil & politics being so closely linked I doubt that any discussion
about oil ,or coal, could take place without getting into the political
arena.

This link to a report on a Governors confernce in 2001 shows what
I mean about these bedfellows.......

http://www.sws.uiuc.edu/hilites/confinfo/energy/postinfo.asp

[Mulerider]

Bad news for all who think bio fuels is our salvation - we can't even come close to growing enough to make what we need and still feed the population. Rarely does anyone make not of that.

Summarizing from the University of New Hampshire Biodiesel Group:

It is possible to produce enough biodiesel to replace ALL petroleum currently used for transportation purposes in the U.S., without competing with productive farmland.

Algae produces exponentially more usable oil than any other crop. It can be grown in manmade ponds in arid areas that are otherwise useless for farming. It produces between 5,000 and 15,000 gallons of usable oil per acre/year. Soybeans produce 40; palm oil, 650.

It would require land area of 15,000 square miles (9.5 million acres, or an area roughly about 12% of the Sonora desert) to produce enough biodiesel to completely replace petroleum diesel and gasoline. Estimated cost of facilities (ponds, transestherification equipment, etc): $308 billion.

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

I'm not editorializing against other alternatives, BTW, I just happen to think that biodiesel holds more promise than other biofuels, and far more than hydrogen, since the storage, delivery, and transportation infrastructure for biodiesel is already in place. Getting the general public to accept diesel-powered vehicles, even clean modern ones, is another matter entirely. Just my .02.

Mulerider

[kawalekm]

One thing I think that is missing in all the discussion about running out of oil is what we OURSELVES are doing to reduce oil consumption. Forget about leadership from the government. We ourselves must take action. Every day when I go to work I see how we could be running out of oil. So many people in their blooted SUVs in the fast lane going 75 mph. How many of them are getting more than 10mpg? As I drove home yesterday in the carpool lane it was surprising how fast I was going in the almost empty lane as compared to the mass of single person cars going 10 mpH. Most people I ask don't even know what their actual miles per gallon is. The best answer one woman could give was "The sticker says I get 28mpg with this car". This is how we will run out of oil, all like lemings running over a cliff without ever knowing what's happening till we drop over the edge. It's time to ask ourselves what WE can do now. I drive a 4 cylinder Saturn with a stick-shift. I get 40+MPG on the highway. Going back and forth to work I get 35. Even when it was badly in need of maintainence in summer city driving with the aircon full blast it never ever went below 30. I drive the speed limit, so I end up staying in the slow lane. When I run errands on the weekend I look at the map and plan my route so I don't waste gas zigzaging back and forth. Lastly, I never, ever let the car sit there idling. I shut off the engine. We must all stop consuming gas like it is some kind of birthright or we will all be left hungry shivering there in the dark!

[Tightwad]

One thing I think that is missing in all the discussion about running out of oil is what we OURSELVES are doing to reduce oil consumption. *Forget about leadership from the government. *We ourselves must take action. *Every day when I go to work I see how we could be running out of oil. *

America needs more folk's such as yourself , mate. It's rare for me
to read posts such as yours that have so much honest common sense
on every citizens CIVIC DUTY to reduce personal oil consumption.

The hard fact is that until the U.S. Government does one of two
things oil consumption in America will NOT change.

Point 1. The Price of fuel MUST be allowed to raise to true market
prices.

Point 2. Fuel rationing must be implemented nationwide to force
a paradigm change in both business and personal consumption.

Point 3. Amtrak passenger rail travel , along with more freight rail,
must be rebuilt to take burden off the highway systems of America.

Point 4. Coal must used as much as possible to replace oil.

Point 5. All personal cars on MUST carry more than one person or
be fined for waste of resources.

Point 6. Road space & routes must be established for increased use
bicycles (pedal & electric) and small motorcycles (50cc or less that run on bio fuels)

Point 7 Trip planning becomes a way of life. *Shop more on the web
or via catalogs to bring goods to you via mass transport. Eliminate
"shopping" as a habit or hobby.

added.........
These changes to get America free of import oil will not happen
voluntarily because the majority of American as so addicted to
low cost oil that they will have to be forced to change how they
live & travel by either making fuel terribly expensive or limit supplies.
Americans will kick and scream like a spoiled child when the truth
of peak oil comes home to roost. The President in power when this
happens will need to be a person of great courage to resist a spoiled
public and do the right thing to keep America free of import oils.
This President will have to keep America from being held hostage
to import oil vendors in spite of what the spoiled consumers want.
Not an easy or popular task for that courageous President.

[Duncan_Idaho]

Point 5. All personal cars on MUST carry more than one person or
be fined for waste of resources.




Hmmm...single young people or single old people will no longer be allowed to own or use automobiles?

[Slugger]

Point 6. Road space & routes must be established for increased use
bicycles (pedal & electric) and small motorcycles (50cc or less that run on bio fuels)

Yeah lets add some excitement to our 65mph highways and double the carnage......... ::) ::) ::)

[Tightwad]

Hmmm...single young people or single old people will no longer be allowed to own or use automobiles?


Don't take the statement out of context, please. No one said anything
about ownership. As far as use goes this thinking is a revival of a
practice used during WWII. Sharing rides was very common then.

Older seniors will remember well sharing cars with friends and
neighbors to "go to town" or the store. Single occupant driving was
either discouraged or fined.

[Mulerider]

The hard fact is that until the U.S. Government does one of two
things oil consumption in America will NOT change.


Somehow I sense a tax increase proposal in your ideas, but you don't come right out and say it.

Here's a novel idea:

Before we impose draconian limits to personal freedom by dictating demand controls, why not address the supply side of the equation? You can limit demand all you want, but the relative inelasticity of petroleum demand will only defer the day of reckoning. The only way to permanently solve the problem -- and the ancillary problem of Middle East dependency -- is to develop renewable sources.

[Tightwad]

Somehow I sense a tax increase proposal in your ideas, but you don't come right out and say it.

Here's a novel idea:

Before we impose draconian limits to personal freedom by dictating demand controls, why not address the supply side of the equation? You can limit demand all you want, but the relative inelasticity of petroleum demand will only defer the day of reckoning. The only way to permanently solve the problem -- and the ancillary problem of Middle East dependency -- is to develop renewable sources.

No, No tax increase. Unless the government get's involved in a ways
that are not wars for oil and starts taking care of business at home
the renewable sources you speak of are a long ways away. To start
that process a weaning of the America public off import oil must
start soon,very soon. It's clear that American's won't wean them-
selves without some sort of incentive. It's that "incentive" I was
addressing.

As an example......
When gas was $3 a gallion little cars were all the rage. Now that
it's back below $3 big cars & suv's are back. America does not even
remember the recent past long enough to learn from it. Something
has to happen to break the back of the cheap fuel big car mind set.

[Mulerider]

No, No tax increase.

Sorry, then, if I misunderstood your statement that the price of gasoline MUST rise to market levels. Gasoline is already priced at market, i.e. the government does not subsidize pricing ala Venezuela, nor does the government artificially depress demand via taxation, as Europe does.

The last two or three years have seen historically high fuel prices. As a result, renewable fuel production has increased tremendously. As the cost of petroleum fuels rises, biofuels become more cost-competitive. For instance, in 1999 there were only 500,000 gallons of biodiesel produced nationwide. Last year there were 91 million. That will easily double this year. All this was brought about because biodiesel is now in a competitive pricing environment with dino-diesel.

Another advantage to biofuels (which coal lacks):

Although there is considerable debate regarding this, many biofuels proponents believe that biofuels are "carbon-neutral," meaning that the plant material from which the fuel is derived consumes as much atmospheric carbon dioxide as the fuel produces when burned in an internal combustion engine. Any way you slice it, though, biofuels are inherently more environment-friendly than any fossil-fuel based product.

[Tightwad]

Another advantage to biofuels (which coal lacks):

Although there is considerable debate regarding this, many biofuels proponents believe that biofuels are "carbon-neutral," meaning that the plant material from which the fuel is derived consumes as much atmospheric carbon dioxide as the fuel produces when burned in an internal combustion engine. Any way you slice it, though, biofuels are inherently more environment-friendly than any fossil-fuel based product.

What is your take on coal to liquid programs to get "coal diesel"?

There is a bill in the house now to start funding of plants to turn
America's huge coal reserves into diesel fuels. Some sites have
been identified as to where to put the plants already.

I agree that bio-fuels seem to offer the better solution as long as
the bio-mass converted to fuels is not also a food source. I know
our local Farm Co-op is promoting the use of non-food bio-mass
ethonol production with plans for plants to be sited to take plant
waste for conversion.

So yes, there is now one candle lighted on the horizion. We just
need to get more candles lighted faster. Maybe then wars like Iraq
would be unneseccary.

[Mulerider]

What is your take on coal to liquid programs to get "coal diesel"?

I'm all for it. We can't convert to renewables overnight, obviously. Every gallon we produce domestically is one gallon we don't buy from our enemies.

[Tightwad]

A story I picked @ Bikeforums.net. It also is sad that this thread
isn't just hopping with activity but it's not which illustrates that
even here at BHM the majority still are in some sort of denial.

"A father from around the block drove to my house on a beautiful September Saturday to pick up his daughter from my girl's birthday party. I could not stop myself from asking "Did you just drive your SUV around the block to pick her up?"

He looked surprised, then a little sheepish and said "I didn't even think about it, I just jumped in and went."

THIS is the best illustration of whats wrong with the American mindset when it comes to oil consumption. Once the reader
comes to a full understanding of the implications of this story it becomes clear that Americans have a long way to go to even
begin to think about weaning themselves OFF import oil.

This story also justifies the reasoning for forcing this mindset to change with higher prices or rationing. A terrible though to be
sure but much better than waiting until oil supplies are so rare that only the military has fuels to use to fight over the oil that's left.

Somehow the people must be convinced that the depletion of oil
is not doom & gloom but is the real deal. ::) ::)

[tonyb]

WE will run out before we wake up!!
I look forward to the day we do run out.
I can't wait ;D ;D

[jim]

I feel blessed to have people around that know what is best for me and are willing to take steps to accomplish their mission. :-*

jim

[kawalekm]

I was at the Ford Dealer the other day for a recall and observed another guy who arrived at the same time. *He set his brake and left the engine idling on his Excursion for a good 10 minutes while waiting for the service rep to process his car. *I would have gone up to him to suggest shutting it off if I didn't think he would get hostle! *He definately looked the type that would think cheap gas is a birthright! *I'm ambivelent about new regs cortailing American's bad driving habits, but I am also disgusted with the brainless sheeople that can't see what's happening and change their habits. *Now about alternative fuels, I myself bought a flex-fuel Ford Ranger back in 2000 in anticipation of these events. *Well, in all that time I never saw automotive ethanol sold in California once! *No, not one single station in 5 years. *Now I have a diesel truck in anticipation of using bio-diesel. *However, I've yet to find a single station that sells it yet. *We really should be looking at all the arguements from both directions. *Decrease consumption and increase bio-production. *Decrease personal demand and increase government inforcement. *I don't think that one single method will ever be the solution. In the end, maybe my woodstove is the best single purchase I've ever made.

[Tightwad]

I was at the Ford Dealer the other day for a recall and observed another guy who arrived at the same time. *He set his brake and left the engine idling on his Excursion for a good 10 minutes while waiting for the service rep to process his car. *I would have gone up to him to suggest shutting it off if I didn't think he would get hostle! *He definately looked the type that would think cheap gas is a birthright! *

One thing not often thought of is the damage idiots like this do to
those of us who are conserving. When they do crap like this they are
stealing from every citizen in America........and no one says a thing.

[tonyb]

One thing not often thought of is the damage idiots like this do to
those of us who are conserving. When they do crap like this they are
stealing from every citizen in America........and no one says a thing.


How is he stealing? It is his gas, his money.
If I leave my light on am I stealing?

[oldnndway]

How much difference do you really think that would make in the overall situation ?

Wonder how many gallons were consumed at NASCAR tracks that weekend ?
Or at other racing events.

By folks out for a ride around the lake in their boats.
Maybe fishing a little, maybe just riding.
Drive by any professional sports venue and look at how many cars are there in the parking lot ... for what ! ... to watch a bunch of grown men play kid games for millions of dollars people drive from miles and miles away.


Yeah , I know, we HAVE to start somewhere.

In East Texas in the summer it gets HOT ... if I'm waiting in the car I got the motor running and the A/C going.
Most folks that have em do.
and I would highly advise you not to try and tell any of these ol boys (and girls) why they have to shut their truck (and a/c) off.

[Tightwad]

I'm not sure but don't Nascar and circle track cars
burn Alcohol?

Yes, folks will keep on doing what they do now until
the can't do them anymore. While the change will
happen no one is sure when it will take place in full.

[pancho]

I'm not sure but don't Nascar and circle track cars
burn Alcohol?

Yes, folks will keep on doing what they do now until
the can't do them anymore. While the change will
happen no one is sure when it will take place in full.
I am sure all the cars in the parking lot did not run on alcohol. Think how many gallons of gas was used just getting from home and back. Might be a few more gallons than a single car running for 10 minutes

[oldnndway]

I don't think NASCAR runs alcohol.

Some drag racers use nitro methane but most of the lower brackets burn gasoline as do all of the local stock cars around here.

The point is that MY turning off my truck while idling is like trying to get water out of the Titanic with a teaspoon....it WON'T make a difference.

[Tightwad]

The point is that MY turning off my truck while idling is like trying to get water out of the Titanic with a teaspoon....it WON'T make a difference.

While I have to agree that one person saving fuel by not idling seems
logical it is not really. Large Fleet operators usually require their
drivers to shut off the engines while stopped to unload or drop off to
save that few ounces of fuel that makes gallons each day overall.

Now while I'm not picking at you or your choices if you stop and
consider all the folks who waste fuel idling when there is no need
to the amount of fuel, overall, that CAN be saved is staggering.
Saved one or two ounces at a time. Fuel that could be used later.

Saving fuel one once at a time is one of the many mindset changes
that will be accepted either voluntarily or be forced upon people
by the economics of wasting fuels.

[tonyb]

How much would have been saved if we didn't start a war?
How much does Congress waste every day?
Lets start at the top and work our way down!!!

[kawalekm]

Oldnndway is correct when he says that shutting off the engine for a few minutes won't make a difference. But, it's all part of a mindset that does. If I shut off, drive the limit, reduce the air-con, plan trips, and drive small, all at the same time, it DOES make a big difference! Hey, I get 35-40 mpg. Now Oldnndway, are you one of the drivers with the 10mpg SUV? I'd bet the ones saying "why bother, it doesn't make a difference" are the ones consuming the very most gas.

TonyB's statement about not stealing the gas reminds me of an old cop show from the sixty's. The smart cop, paired with the dumb cop, get locked in a bank vault while chasing the robbers. The smart cop says "It will be OK, the bank will open the vault at 8am tomorrow morning. Lets just rest here till then and we can get out". He drew an imaginary line on the floor and said "I'll take this half and you can have that half". He tried to sleep to conserve air but was later awakened by the dumb cop who was doing calisthenics. He shouted "Stop! you're using up the air". The dumb cop replied "Look, you use your half your way, and I'll use my half my way!" Does that sound familar? The more we waste gas now the less there will be for everyone in the future! We'll all have nothing left to burn! The time to conserve is NOW. Come on, it doesn't have to mean banning ownership, or rationing, or regulating driving habits if we show a little bit of responsibility now! Do all the things I suggested yourself and I bet you get another 50 miles with every tank of gas!

[tonyb]

So I guess you are calling me dumb!!
Very nice of you.
The speed limit says 65 I drive 55. I don't drve anywhere unless I have to.

Sure all that is wasteful....BUT.....

It is his gas. He paid for it.
He can do with it what he wants.
Nobodies business but his.
Until it is against the law, you'll not stop it.

[Tightwad]

Sure all that is wasteful....BUT.....

It is his gas. He paid for it.
He can do with it what he wants.
Nobodies business but his.
Until it is against the law, you'll not stop it.

Thank you for your excellent illustration of the selfish mindset that
is being discussed here. *It matters not that you paid for the
resource being used. What matters is that ANY limited resource
belongs to all to be shared EQUALLY BY ALL.

Death, food , water & air are all shared by every creature on the
planet. Money can only buy the temporary use of them and won't
buy you one more minute of life.

No one "owns" anything in life.

[oldnndway]

Which of you were squealing the loudest when gas went over $3.00 a gallon ?

You want to save gas ?
Get the price up around $5.00 a gallon and see how much is "saved" .

[Tightwad]

Which of you were squealing the loudest when gas went over $3.00 a gallon ?

You want to save gas ?
Get the price up around $5.00 a gallon and see how much is "saved" .
;D ;D ;D ;D LOT'S of folk's were"squealing" at $3.00 a gal. LOT'S
of folk's also "discovered" bicycles & trains too.

The way I figure it when gas get's to $5.00 (or more) a gal the
"squealing" ought to be flat hysterical. :o :o Gosh, who knows
folk's might even "discover" walking again. ;D ;D ;D

Do tell.................

[tonyb]

Well I don't have a problem with money. $3-$5 a gallon
I'll pay it.

If I have to I got my golfcart & bike plus my feet.
And horses.

[anastasia]

can bio-diesel be made out of shit* of any kind human or otherwise? that is in abundance. I think that will solve the problem for using food crops to produce fuel. looks like most of it goes to pollute the seas thru sewage systems plus the swine farms etc. etc. toilet paper is make out cellulose

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

sorry to spoil the whole freak-out here but if we get cut off from all the countries that hate conservatives/republicans then all we have to do is drill for our own oil that we have here. yes the left will oppose us doing that even in an emergency cause the "environment" trumps all! its alot better to have other countries ruin the environment instead. we also have a lot of oil shale which is feasible when oil prices are over 40 bucks a barrel. we could also build our own nuclear power plants instead of doing it for north korea.

i know its hard to believe but if we are screwed in the USA then that pretty much means that the rest of the world is too. oh sorry i forgot about socialists & liberals. i am sure they will have the answer.

[kawalekm]

I see two central themes is this discussion. One, is that "I payed for it, so I can do what I want with it". The second is "others (Like NASCAR racers) waste so much more than me, so I can waste a little". I have to applogize to TonyB because he thinks my story implies he's stupid. However, I do think it is just selfish self-interest to claim you can do what you want because you pay for it. Sooner or later, there won't be anything left to use, BY ANYONE! As for waste in sporting events, I agree that racing is wastefull, I can only hope that people will see the light and racing will decline in popularity. I myself do not participate in ANY motor sports whatsoever. Sure, I use a car every day to go to work, but that is out of economic necessity rather than recreation. I don't use gas just to have fun! The bottum line is this... When we do really start to run out, conservation will be forced upon us. Maybe some day at gunpoint! The government will do anything it takes to maintain control, and the sheeple will go along with it as long as they get THEIR ration of gas! We can either CHOOSE to conserve now, or be FORCED to conserve later.

[jim]

All this sounds like a lot of trouble and expense when the real problem can't even begin to rear it's head (except by artificial means) for another 50-100 years. In fifty years, fuel cells will negate the problem.

Let the free market solve the problem and keep all busy-bodies (govt. and otherwise) out of it. They'll only make things worse. Anything else is merely foolish.

jim

[Dan_Kane]

"...What matters is that ANY limited resource
belongs to all to be shared EQUALLY BY ALL.
[snip]
No one "owns" anything in life..."

When did this turn into a Communist-coming-out party? ;-)

I'll certainly be sharing my lead equally, one round per skull, if anyone tries claiming 'equal rights' to my gasoline reserves...

[Tightwad]

This site offers ways to conserve that might align
with the priority's of the forward thinking folk's
here at BHM. The backwards thinking folk's will
just have to catch up later.......

http://www.oildepletionprotocol.org/share

[Tightwad]

"...What matters is that ANY limited resource *
belongs to all to be shared EQUALLY BY ALL.
[snip]
No one "owns" anything in life..."

When did this turn into a Communist-coming-out party? *;-)

I'll certainly be sharing my lead equally, one round per skull, if anyone tries claiming 'equal rights' to my gasoline reserves...

Gosh, If you don't agree with the concept of Peak Oil there's no
reason to get so upset and violent.

You have every right to continue to waste your money as nobody
will try to stop you at all.

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

welp kawalekm its unfortunate for you that nascar is the fastest growing sport in the world. you prolly have alot in common with my liberal brother in-law who likes competitive swimming. he agrees with you that its a terrible waste of oil & he also doesnt get the point of just going around & around. i asked him "what then is entertaining on watching people go back & forth?". i then asked him how with good conscience he can jump into an indoor pool in the water starved state of new mexico? couldnt this water be used on crops to provide organic food for the poor?

i also wonder in the grand scheme of things how many more minutes of oil usage on a global scale we would have if auto racing were outlawed?

are the fuel cells you refer to hydrogen fuel cells? if so have you ever wondered how we get hydrogen? is there a pipe we stick into the ground to get it? nope....atm it takes natural gas. is that limitless? nope.

either way you look at it mother is the necessity of invention & i assure you that there are plenty of other sources for energy which we now have or will discover. regardless you could help save us all & move within walking distance to your job or ride a bike. you could also lobby to get some laws past where all competitive sports are bio friendly where no precious resources are used at all. maybe have all athletes compete on some sort of generator device & see who can produce the most kilowatts.

[oldnndway]

I DID mention NASCAR as a user of fuel but I would add to that , go by any large sporting event and look at ALL the cars oin the parking lot...it takes (literally) zillions of gallons of gas for all those folks just to get there.

Take the same look at any large mall on the weekend ... oughta just go ahead and outlaw malls too.

...theme parks
...movies
...eating places

The list is endless.

Now what really p/o's me is that you have all these big "stuffed shirt" politicos and such (that TW and others parrot) telling us how WE better start saving fuel, yet they fly back and forth across the country to their meetings and symposiums to decide just how bad it is ....and they are burning tons of it themselves.

I'm getting to where I care less and less for liberals

[kawalekm]

It's amusing how as I advacate being conservative I am compared to a liberal and if I suggest self-regulation the word "Communist" pops up. *At this point I really feel like the lone sailor on the Titanic who kept shouting "There's an iceberg ahead!" *It is really amazing to me how much denial people can generate to perpetuate their statis quo. *If you all have your own excuses to keep on with business as usual, then that is your problem. *I tried to tell you. *Now I'll just focus on getting my own lifeboat stocked and I won't worry about you all because I won't be making an space in it for you! *If I"m really lucky I will be far enough away not to hear your moaning as you all freeze to death!

[jim]

Anyone that wishes to get into the lifeboat 50 years early (really closer to 200 years) is welcome to do so, but why become insulting to those that just don't agree with you? You're not smarter, just way more cautious as is your right.

Hydrogen from water will be ideal, and that will take a little time, but will eventually happen. Then, we can hotrod all we wish if there is still room.

jim

[unclesam]

Funny , it seems the US army is preparing for peak oil. Heres a presentation on it from west point.


http://www.asc2006.com/posters/HP-18.pdf

And it seems that fuel prices are already drastically affecting food prices.I would hate too see the prices at the grocery store in 200 years when according to some when the peak will really happen.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=ayonmpI2Y1dA&refer=news

[Tightwad]

Jim, how do you feel about a different kind of
engine to replace the internal combustion engine?

The old internal combustion engine is long past due to
be replaced with something that DOES NOT take fossil
fuels to burn. ALL of the engines mankind has now
have been around for a long long time. Time for
a new kid on the block don'tcha think??

[jim]

Hey, I'm all for technology. Innovation is good for everyone for the most part. I'd like to see the private sector do it without govt. money/interference though. There are some geniuses out there that need to be turned loose. Couple that with supply and demand should get the job done with the minimum of cost and trouble. Nothing would please me more than to see OPEC begging everyone to please buy their oil.

jim

[Tightwad]

"Nothing would please me more than to see OPEC begging everyone to please buy their oil. "

Here!Here!! ;D ;D ;D

Let'em go pound sand for a while...........

[billy_goat_gruff]

scottie12 asked me what I thought about this long ago and I responded on another thread to a portion of it. *Guess it is time to say the rest of my piece...

There, my comment was that any resource, whether renewable or non-renewable, would go away assuming useage was more than the recharge rate.

Peak oil, yeah, it is out there in our future somewhere.

Why is oil the topic of many conversations when the real issue appears to be energy to support ____ (fill in the blank with your choice of civilization, life style, et al.) Because oil has one of the highest energy densities around. There is a lot of energy locked in each lb., gallon, liter, whatever. And, it is fairly stable in the chemical world. Doesn't a gallon of gas (refined from oil) have about the same energy in it as a couple of sticks of dynamite? And, without the uncontrolled release of energy...

The world is already addressing the peak oil problem to a certain extent. Off gridders are leading the charge. Engineers putting solar collectors on buildings is happening in some cities elsewhere in the world. The everyday Joe is walking and/or riding a bicycle.

My opinion is that everyone should look to their own energy needs, and that includes whatever turns them on, be it hydrogen, solar, wind, whatever. Self reliant is the word I'm looking for here. Self reliant energy to meet your needs.

So, in a blatant hijack attempt of Ozarkguy's thread, what do you plan to do in the next year to become more self reliant for your energy needs? Buy an electric scooter with associated wind or solar or whatever charger, build a bicycle car, find more money to pay the cost the other guy fronts to obtain the oil and process it?

And, Tightwad, my labor is my own as is everyone else's. *The water may be a common resource but if I use my labor to make it purer then it is no longer a common resource. It is value added, and I should be compensated for that value added.

And if you don't agree then feel free to drink the common resource... You should last about 3 days or so drinking sea water, shorter time if you drink some of the other waters I'm aware of before the value added thing...

I'll shut up now and await Ozarkguy's diatribe against hijack trolls on this board... PS and BTW, you don't have to tell anyone else your plan for the next year to be more energy self reliant.

Just do it... *or, in other words, get er done... or,... ;)

[Tightwad]

And, Tightwad, my labor is my own as is everyone else's. *



??? ??? Your labor has never been questioned as an issue nor
has anyone else's labor. It's all in how you interpret my meaning
while still keeping it in the intended context.

[kawalekm]

Now I liked Billy Goat's question about how we all are trying to be more self-sufficient. That's really what was bugging me about this thread. Everybody talking about what the government, market, tooth fairy will do to keep the oil flowing and maintain our standard of living, instead of what we ourselves are going. In this coming year I'll be installing my woodstove to dispose of the big piles of oak I've been accumulating. I'm also planning a rooftop collection system that will supplement the well water I already use. I'm also looking for new generators for my utility shed. I'd like to get a dual-fuel generator that uses either gasoline/propane or one that's diesel/vegetable oil. Besides that, I'm now shopping for a windmill and solar panels. Then very next project though will be making a solar water heater. Here in the Sierra, there's lots of sun most of the year and I think I could count on some hot water from May till October. And, I have just enough pieces of plywood left to try making a nice big solar oven for baking.

[Tightwad]

Funny , it seems the US army is preparing for peak oil. Heres a presentation on it from west point.


http://www.asc2006.com/posters/HP-18.pdf

And it seems that fuel prices are already drastically affecting food prices.



This PDF offered by UncleSam should be required reading for
every citizen in North America. While the main focus is the
Army's need for fuels the PDF details the why's of what will
happen ALONG WITH THE SOURCE DOCUMENTS THEY ARE
DRAWN FROM. This collection of source documents will give
even the most harcore nay sayers pause when it comes to
discounting the reality of Peak Oil. These documents also
point out the dangers of 6>9 BILLION people on a planet
that can't support them without cheap plentiful oil.

"Peak Oil" is not about running out of oil tommorrow, it's about
the changes that will take place AFTER half of the oil is consumed.
The changes that will be forced on all who live on this planet.

Everyone will have a lot more of "less" when the scale is tipped
to the downslope of cheap plentiful oil.

http://www.asc2006.com/posters/HP-18.pdf

[jim]

Some of you might find this interesting. Scroll down to the article posted by preparedordie and read what John Mauldin has to say on the subject.

http://survivalmonkey.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52&page=3

jim

[Tightwad]

Interesting......

Thanks, Jim.

[billy_goat_gruff]

Tightwad, my apologies if I misunderstood. Too many of the folks who support the common ownership theme also forget that finished product is not the raw material.

As for who actually owns the raw material, well, it has historically been those with the most swords and the will to use them ruthlessly. Don't think America has that last word down pat, hope we never do, but if we aren't going to be totally ruthless then we need to set a dream, a goal, and start the race. Kennedy did it when Sputnik zoomed over our heads, and I think it can be done again.

As someone else suggested, I would love to see the shieks and kings and all those guys begging for someone to buy their oil that is facing a better product in the market place...

Maybe we Americans do have ruthless down, just in our own unique way... :D ;D

Oh, and as for those extra 3 billion... the machine exists right now that can make light crude #2 out of chicken and turkey processing wastes. Maybe we could sell the machine to those rulers who have the excess population?

Yeah, guess I have a dark side... thankfully, I will never be faced with deciding whether to sell one to someone else.

There is abundant energy, it just isn't in a very usable form.

As for me, I'm going to go try to find a small brushless DC motor and one of those yard windmills that tufhelp has in his picture. Then see if I can hook it up somehow to trickle charge a battery sometime in the next year...

[Tightwad]

Are the chickens coming home to roost?........

Costly fuel cools Americans' love for cars
By Bruce NicholsThu Nov 30, 12:21 PM ET

High gasoline prices not only slowed fuel demand growth and cut sales of gas-guzzling vehicles in 2005, they also prompted Americans to drive less for the first time in 25 years, a consulting group said in a report Thursday.

The drop in driving was small -- the average American drove 13,657 miles per year in 2005, down from 13,711 miles in 2004 -- but it is more evidence that the market works and prices help control consumption, Boston-based Cambridge Energy Research Associates said.

"Price matters," CERA Chairman Daniel Yergin said.

The group's 2007 edition of "Gasoline and the American People" shows the U.S. romance with automobiles is changing, but not ending, due to tighter environmental rules, expanded fuel options, such as ethanol and biodiesel, and an aging of the population, CERA said in a news release.

U.S. motorists are currently paying up an average of $2.247 per gallon at the pump, down from a record $3.057 struck in September 2005 after Hurricane Katrina disrupted U.S. Gulf Coast refinery operations, according to AAA motor club data.

The share of U.S. household budgets going to gasoline and oil has been relatively stable for decades, at 3.8 percent in 2006, compared with 3.4 to 3.6 percent in the 1960s, due to low fuel taxes and improved vehicle efficiency, the report said.

Miles driven per motorist was down partly because there are more elderly people driving, and they tend to drive less, the report said. Between 1980 and 2004, drivers under age 21 dropped from 18.8 million to 15.8 million and those over 65 almost doubled, from 15.4 million to nearly 29 million, CERA said.

Average annual miles per vehicle also declined last year, from 11,946 to 11,856. That number for cars is smaller than average miles per motorist because there are more cars than licensed drivers in the United States, 1,148 per thousand, CERA said.

Growth in U.S. demand for gasoline slowed from an average 1.6 percent per year between 1990 and 2004 to 0.3 percent in 2005 and 1 percent in 2006, the report said.

Sales of vehicles with lower gas mileage "have begun to slump, with monthly, seasonally adjusted sales reportedly declining nine of the 12 months ending September 2006," CERA said. "Weakness is most pronounced for the heavier class of SUVs."

The report said sales of minivans and sport utility vehicles peaked at 56 percent of all vehicles sold in 2004, but slipped to less than 55 percent in 2005 and 53 percent so far this year.

[Mulerider]

Here's an article on a new biodiesel facility in South Africa. This is essentially the model I think the U.S. needs to implement. The South African facility bought its equipment from GreenFuels Technologies Corp., a U.S. company. Note the yield/acre comparison of algae and sunflower oil near the end.

Mulerider
==============

Firm plans to produce biodiesel from algae

WEDNESDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2006


JOHANNESBURG: South African fuels firm De Beers Fuel Ltd plans to produce 16 to 24 billion litres of bio-diesel a year from algae within five years with an initial investment of 3.5 billion rand ($US487.4 million - $NZ738.26m).

The company has bought licenses for 100,000 acres (40,489ha) to be developed into algae farms – for which the initial investment is targeted – and within five years from now the intention is to increase that land area to 800,000 acres.

De Beers Fuel – which is unrelated to the world's biggest diamond producer De Beers – said in a statement that South Africa uses about 8.1 billion litres of bio-diesel yearly.

De Beers Fuel already runs a plant which produces 144,000 litres of bio-diesel daily from sunflower seed oil, at Naboomspruit in the northern Limpopo province.

A bio-diesel algae reactor installed at the plant will be showcased to investors, experts and the media later this week.

"The project is highly capital-intensive. The first 100 acres will require about 3.5 billion rand, this has been sourced mainly from foreign private equity groups," Hendy Schoombee, a senior official at De Beers Fuel said.

"We had initially intended to list the company to raise the money. We might list at a future date to raise money for further expansion," he said.

One acre of algae can produce 92,000 litres of bio-diesel, compared to 350 litres produced from one acre of a sun-flower seed farm, he added.

The company will use land that is not arable or useful for most other purposes, and will also generate electricity from waste material out of the bio-diesel-making process.

Its bio-diesel will be targeted for industrial use and for future exports, and is based on technology supplied by a US company, GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, while Green Star Products, also of the US, will build the bio-diesel reactors.

[unclesam]

Theres apparently not as much oil in the reserves as has been stated. Who would have thought that governments or big business would lie to us?

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com: 20061130:MTFH65881_2006-11-30_14-04-12_L30750555&type=comktNews&rpc=44


No public disclosure of Kuwait oil reserves-minister

CAIRO, Nov 30 (Reuters) - OPEC-producer Kuwait will not make a public announcement about the size of its oil reserves but will provide data to the Gulf Arab state's parliament, the energy minister said on Thursday.

Industry newsletter Petroleum Intelligence Weekly (PIW) said in January it had seen internal Kuwaiti records showing reserves were about 48 billion barrels -- half the officially stated 99 billion, or some 10 percent of global oil reserves.

"We will not announce it (the reserves) publicly because we are not obliged to," Sheikh Ali al-Jarrah al-Sabah said.


"We have our reserves and our parliament will look at it," he told Reuters on the sidelines of an energy event in Egypt.

[kawalekm]

The aura of secrecy follows that of Saudi Arabia. It reminds me a lot of the secrecy the the Soviets tried to maintain over the years. That secrecy was maintained out of fear of its ememies, namely us, the United States. If we really knew how pathetic their military was, we might not have perpetetuated the cold war. With the arabs however, their secrecy is to prevent panic and the push to develop alternative fuels! By pretending everything is just fine, they maintain the statis quo and everything stays business as usual. That way we stay dutifull paying custumers. You can't expect George Bush or any other of the politicans to say anything either. Jimmy Carter tried to do that and look what happened to him!

There seems to be a lot of confusion about sources of energy and engines producing power. No engine, whether it be a gasoline, fuel cell, or even steam engine produces any power without a source of energy. It's where that energy comes from is what determines how we keep engines running. Fuel cells keep being proclaimed to be our salvation for the future, but people don't realize that hydrogen is NOT a SOURCE of energy! We can't drill a well and pump hydrogen out of the ground. The FREE hydrogen has to first synthesized from something else. The cheapest source of purified hydrogen right now is to strip it off of petrolium. The second cheapest source is to make it from water by electrolsis. In either case, you use a lot of energy to MAKE the hydrogen. Obviously we are not going to solve a petrolium shortage by making hydrogen from petrolium. If we try to make it from water, very large amounts of electricity must be used to make the hydrogen. So, where does all the electrcity to make it come from? Some people will say we have hundreds of years supply of coal left (based on the current rate of consumption), but if we make both electricity for our homes, and to power our vehicles, how much longer is it going to last. Lastly there is the amount of energy that is required to extract our energy from the ground. At best oil has a 1:20 ratio of input to output. This means you consume about 1 barrel of oil in the drilling, pumping, and refining of oil to produce 20 barrels of additional oil. No alternative source of energy has a ratio as high as oil, and oil's ratio has been dropping for the last few decades. That means we now expend more oil to get those new barrels out of the ground. Once the ratio drops to 1:1 all the remaining oil will stay in the ground because we would be using up more fuel getting it out than is produced. That is really the key point in any alternative fuel discussion. If the new source of power does not have a input/output ratio of greater than 1, then it will never be a viable source of power!

[Tightwad]

"There seems to be a lot of confusion about sources of energy and engines producing power. *No engine, whether it be a gasoline, fuel cell, or even steam engine produces any power without a source of energy. "

This key point is the root of the problem. Energy can not be "created"
it can only be "changed in form" which is what the engines used
today do.

Now consider that ALL energy on earth comes from two places only...
The sun or radioactive minerals of the earth. OIL/COAL are both
stored sunlight which man converts to usable energy.

What is needed is methods (maybe not engines) that convert these
two sources as directly as possible to usable energy that can be
converted to "work" to power our society.

The conversion process is the sticking point now.

[jim]

I firmly believe that scientists can and will come up with a cheap method of stripping hydrogen from water so we can run cheap and effective fuel cells. It will happen, and I'm not worried about it. Neither am I worried about running out of oil before that happens.

jim

[billy_goat_gruff]

Da-yum, Tightwad!!! Ya actually synthesized a couple of those articles that you post into thoughts that we can discuss! FANTASTIC!!!!

I want to toss in gravity as another source of energy but can't think of a pure gravity source. Hydroelectric dams are both sun source for the water flowing in the stream and gravity pushing it through the turbines...

Anyway, since this has turned into a discussion of folks' thoughts instead of posting articles, think I'll join you guys in speculating and synthesizing the articles I've read...

Mulerider, algae needs shallow ponds and nutrients to grow well. And we come back to the water problem. I do agree that we can get more useful energy from growing that stuff than from regular crops since the life cycle for algae is so much shorter. It would be kinda like growing 100 crops a year... And, like corn, it would have to have the fertilizer and all.

unclesam and kawalekm, the Arabic countries (and some others also) have lots and lots of land that is pretty much useless. Sand, in other words. Why not cover those areas with solar panels and generate electricity? Well, probably because there is little or no demand in that area. What oil seems to be is an easily transported storage mechanism for easily accessed energy. There would need to be some easily accessed energy mechanism to convert the electricity into. Hydrogen comes to mind, but it is a gas at normal temperatures and gas is what burns, whether it is wood or oil or steel. And we hit the water problem again if we want to use electrolysis. If those areas had water then they could bloom like Israel has made their desert do.

There is a lot of ocean area out there also which would be better to use if hydrogen is the storage medium of choice.

And that brings us to Tightwad's position, which the foregoing is little more than a restatement of. We need some way to convert sunlight or radiation into a safe, easily transportable something which can be transported to where the energy is needed then converted back into energy. [TW, right now if I'm not mistaken there are places pumping sea water into higher elevations when electrical demand is low so that they can run the water through turbines later. This is what triggered the gravity thought in me.]

So simple... on paper at least. There is the dream that the leaders (real leaders, not so-called leaders) could put before the people and all that is left is to put some competition into it. Let's say Arabs against Hawaiians. I mean, the Arabic places have the desert areas and Hawaii has lots of ocean nearby... :D ;D ;D

And I'm not sure that machine I was talking about earlier won't convert algae and/or corn into #2 oil... Best I remember it just needs a carbon source and a hydrogen source plus power to heat the mash up enough to duplicate the process the earth uses to make oil.

That is about all man does anyway, is speed up Nature's processes, whether it is breaking down wastewater, or solid wastes, or making drinking water. It seems about time to see if we can maybe speed up the energy processes and make sunlight into oil faster, don't you think?

http://www.discover.com/issues/may-03/features/featoil/

[Tightwad]

Gravity is one of the forces of nature that man
doesn't really understand. If we did the need for
"fuel" wouldn't exist at all! :o :o

[billy_goat_gruff]

Gravity is one of the forces of nature that man
doesn't really understand. If we did the need for
"fuel" wouldn't exist at all! :o :o

I'll see that bet and raise you a tad...

What documentation do you have that if we understood gravity then we wouldn't need fuel?

[Tightwad]

I'll see that bet and raise you a tad...

What documentation do you have that if we understood gravity then we wouldn't need fuel?

This could get a bit exotic as far as "fuels" go.

A full understanding of Gravity would allow mankind to use the forces
that hold atoms together to cause object to move. The use of Gravity
could cause objects to decrease in weight or be pulled/pushed from
place to place with no physical contact with anything around them.

The use of Gravity could allow all those science fiction devices to
become real. The full depth of the use of Gravity as force to "work"
can give one a headache. However, for the sake of simplicity, just
imaging that you could do what you wanted with anything by wishing
it to happen. That's kinda like the way Gravity could "work" for man.

Being able to fully understand and use Gravity is mind boggling.

[Mulerider]

>> Mulerider, algae needs shallow ponds and nutrients to grow well. <<

BGG, that's right. Fortunately many strains of oil-dense algae grow in saltwater, thus eliminating the need to deplete freshwater supplies. Commercial algae farming in the ocean is an interesting concept that's just now getting attention.

The nutrient issue presents another exciting benefit of biodiesel from algae (can you tell I believe in it? ;) ) Algae actually acts like a CO2 "sponge." It thrives on carbon dioxide. There are a couple of companies that have begun constructing algae/biodiesel facilities at fossil-fuel power plants. These algae facilities are reducing the power plants' carbon dioxide emissions by 40%. The company that has developed this technology is Greenfuels Technologies, referenced in the earlier article. They call their process "Emissions to Biofuels." This is the U.S. company that is providing the equipment for the big South African biodiesel facility.

Here's their website:

http://www.greenfueltechnologies.net/

Very promising technology. Fortunately, the auto industry appears to be gearing up for increased demand for diesel vehicles.

Mulerider

[kawalekm]

I think that part of the problem here is that few people here have a solid background in science. To look at Jim's post, there is NOT going to be a "cheap way" to strip hydrogen off of water. Water can be considered completely oxidized hydrogen. As such, it is at it lowest possible energy state. Free unattached hydrogen can only be synthesized by adding very large amounts of energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. It simply can not be cheap because that would volate the laws of physics. You might as well be talking about creating a perpetual motion machine. That also violates the laws of physics. Since I am a scientist with a pHD, I do know what I am talking about.

I am in strongly in favor of any new hydroelectric dams that can be built across the country. However, only about 6% of our total electric needs nation-wide are hydro so even if we double the number of dams nation-wide, that only meets about an 8th of our total electrical needs. Getting back to solar, since I've purchased solar panels myself, I know how little power even a fairly big panel produces. Again, it gets back to the energy ratio again. It takes a lot of electricity to MAKE a solar panel, and over its whole lifetime it makes only a little more power than what it took to produce it. I think biofuels are our single greatest hope besides going nuclear. I don't know much about oils from algae, but my gut feeling is to trust traditional vegetable oils more because they are a proven commodity. I will not purchase any vehicle from now on that cannot run on either biodiesel or E85. I have a diesel truck now and love it. I can't wait till I can purchase a small diesel sedan here in California. That's where I'm putting my money!

[oldnndway]

Wind and waves folks.

Wind generators are finally taking off big time (at least they are in Texas)

and we have an unending source of power in tidal movement.
If someone can harness tidal action for generation you have a near unending source of energy.

[oldnndway]

course it may not be aesthetically pleasing off Nantucket

[Mulerider]

Agree 100% on Texas wind farms. The one on I-20 at Sweetwater is impressive!

[BrentL]

heat. a better method of converting heat to electricity and we got it made.

[Tightwad]

heat. *a better method of converting heat to electricity and we got it made.

This is conversion is already done with internal combustion engines,
steam generators/engines, planetary wind,water and biomass.

Is there some other method you were meaning?

[oldnndway]

Can you imagine how much energy could be developed if someone comes up with an economical way to use the energy of tides and/or wave action.

A constant, natural, unlimited source of energy.
The tides come and go , twice in 24 hours...normally.
...and they do it every day.

[Steve90]

The French (annoyingly :)) have had tidal power for 30 years. I keep hearing proposals for sites in this country, but none have taken off commercially yet.
This (http://wwwphys.murdoch.edu.au/rise/reslab/resfiles/tidal/text.html) link gives an idea of what is capable, given the will.

[BrentL]

TW, yes, most of what you list generates heat as a by product and is part of the inefficiently of those methods.

a thermo electric generator converts heat to electricity directly.

but they do so at about 12% efficentcy

[oldnndway]

I've always wondered if it were possible to get enough electrical generation to power a house off a "paddle wheel" like arrangement floating in a flowing river.

Seems like no matter how little it put out that you could put it in batteries just as solar power is used.

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

Can you imagine how much energy could be developed if someone comes up with an economical way to use the energy of tides and/or wave action.

A constant, natural, unlimited source of energy.
The tides come and go , twice in 24 hours...normally.
...and they do it every day.

this idea is good in theory however not feasible, especially off the coast of massachusettes. as with the wind farm idea that was scrapped there, the wave power generators could spoil ted kennedys view and even worse could disrupt jellyfish or something.

[kawalekm]

To answer Oldnndway's last post, I remember a Bosnian news snippet from the 90's. Residents of Sarajevo or where-ever were out of power for weeks on end. One solution was to attach sealed automotive altenators to a flooting platform that was connected to a paddlewheel. This whole assembly was attached to a tether and strung downstream of a bridge. The flowing current turned the paddlewheel, which in turn rotated the altenator, producing at least some electrical power.

By the way, there's a post on making a home-made electrical windmill from cut plastic pipe and a tread-mill motor. Considering that it's relatively hard to find a scrap treadmill, what other kinds of electrical motors are suitable for conversion into a generator? I'd like to try making one and see what happens.

[Tightwad]

TW, yes, most of what you list generates heat as a by product and is part of the inefficiently of those methods.

a thermo electric generator converts heat to electricity directly.

but they do so at about 12% efficentcy



Do you mean like this?

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/ThermoElectric/index.html

[BrentL]

TW, ya, here is a classic example of a mid-level TEG aplication.

http://www.magma.ca/~barkhm5/ecofan.htm

they are also used extensivly in remote communicaition posts.

to learn more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect

[Tightwad]

Whoa!!! :o :o :o NEAT stuff, mate. ;D ;D ;D

[billy_goat_gruff]

Hey, TW. Er, think those forces holding the atom together are called something besides gravity... and if it were just gravity then atoms would collapse. I remember something about van der walls, strong and weak forces, but don't remember which is what without looking it up. There is electro in there too (Proton - electron interaction) but think I know what you mean. A theory of everything (including gravity) would make it easier.

kawalekm, the trouble is that you ARE a scientist... ;) If you would, cut jim a break on not using proper scientific jargon. Slam me into the wall if you wanna over it cause I'm supposed to know it, when I want to use it anyway.

It happens that I agree with jim also. It won't be so much a "cheap" way to do it in my opinion as it will be someone coming up with a way to use waste energy to crack water. May not generate that much hydrogen but even a bit of return on what was once thrown away is just gravy for the taters. Co-generation at factories is my paradigm when I think of cracking water for hydrogen.

Also, I'm thinking that the cost of solar cells has come down, at least on the non-silicon ones. Heard that some of those can give payback of it all in 7 years with 13 years of production still in them.

As for what to use as a generator in homemade experiments, rumor is that any brushless dc motor can be used as a generator. The devil is in how fast it has to turn. I probably will try a hard drive motor or some such with my baby windmill, but am prepared to go crunch some numbers, buy the magnet wire, magnets, and polycast if it comes to it. First I'll probably hit 12vman up and see if he knows any motors that spin fairly slowly though.

Hey, 12, are you out there?? What is a good motor to turn into a play generator?

BrentL, aren't those things fairly fragile though? Pop a solar furnace (focused mirrors) on one and...

You guys have a lot of good ideas on here. I have enjoyed reading them.

Here is one from several years ago... some dude generated power from squirrels crossing a line to his birdfeeder. He had hung magnets on string/springs inside of plastic pipe which had a coil wrapped around it. I can't find the website any more so if you run across it, let me know, okay?

That one gave me a big smile at a time in life when I needed to be distracted...

Thanks, guys. Oh, and has anyone done the bike generator setup (or similar) that they talk about over on the otherpower website? Just curious...

[Archangel]

kawalekm
The break down from water to gas is not that hard, They use it for UAV that fly for days. The problem is safe storage of H2. Just my 2 cents

PS remember the Ark was built by armaturs and the Titanic was built by pros

[pancho]

kawalekm
The break down from water to gas is not that hard, They use it for UAV that fly for days. *The problem is safe storage of H2. *Just my 2 cents

PS remember the Ark was built by armaturs and the Titanic was built by pros

Just remember we have found the Titanic, it is real. We have not found the Ark, it may not have ever existed.

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;They found the Ark on the top of Mount Ararat (In Turkey)in the late 1970's.National Geographic did a photographic Odyssey on this.Albeit a lot of you don't remember the 70's but this was big news!-

[jim]

I remember that.

jim

[billy_goat_gruff]

But.... guys!!! It was just photographs and since NASA airbrushes the UFOs out of their pictures then obviously someone airbrushed the Ark in!!!

Okay, just kidding there... but if one takes the instructions for building the other Ark and builds one then puts it in a nice dry desert wind... *:o

Conductor (gold) - insulator (gopher wood) - conductor (more gold not in contact with the outside layer)

THAT spells electrocution in my book if one touches the outer conductor when it is charged by the wind and one isn't standing on a rubber mat. IMO, anyway...

[BrentL]

not fragile, but they do have an operating range.

the thing i like about them is that heat is the driving force. if you can store heat or create heat ,you have a source of electricity.

its my favorate pet project. other than making lava.

[pancho]

Hey Guys;They found the Ark on the top of Mount Ararat (In Turkey)in the late 1970's.National Geographic did a photographic Odyssey on this.Albeit a lot of you don't remember the 70's but this was big news!-
That was the story back then. Test proved different. As of today there hasn't been any evidence to prove the Ark ever existed. There have been a few that found some old wood and some who found what they thought was a shape of the Ark. All of these were found to be not true. There was some ancient wood found that has a tar like substance on it that many thought came from the Ark. They were mistaken also when the test were done.

[oldnndway]

I think y'all may be talking about two different arks.

The one on Arrarat is Noah's

The "electric" one is " ' Of The Covenant "

[oldnndway]

(it may be in Africa ...some think, in ethiopia)

[pancho]

I think y'all may be talking about two different arks.

The one on Arrarat is Noah's

The "electric" one is " *' Of The Covenant "
I didn't know there was more than one. Please tell me about this new one.

[billy_goat_gruff]

pancho, The Old Testament, Exodus 25:10 assuming I haven't written it down wrong.

For a more PC view -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant

There are several things in those old books that also seem to appear in engineering texts. Different words but...

After re-reading the Exodus description, my description above appears to have been flavored by the engineering texts... Think one huge capacitor. It is also described as some form of radio receiver with God...

Don't know, wasn't there...

[kawalekm]

I don't think statements like "violates the laws of physics" is full of techical jargon! I also did not say that making hydrogen is HARD! I said it was energy intensive. You yourself can produce your own hydrogen gas right in your own garage. Just pop the hood of your car and hook up your charger to your battery. Once the battery has been fully charged it gasses. Well, that gas is partially hydrogen. Is that so hard? No. However, the energy contained in that hydrogen can not physically equal more energy than the electricity you pumped into the battery. That's what the laws of physics talks about. If you make hydrogen for your car by electrolysis, then you willl use as much or more electricity to make the hydrogen then it takes to move the car down the road.

Seeing how this thread has degenerated to a discussion of Noah's Ark, I can see how much fantasy influences this discussion. I'd suggest however we discuss the search for the Holy Grail instead. Jesus's cup must be the ultimate source of plentiful energy that will solve all our problems!

On second thought though it might be best for you all to keep you fantasies. Once you are out of gas and sitting on the curb on the side of the road you will need all your fantasies to get you through the day, because you certainly won't be ready to deal with reality!

[jim]

YOU whinners are the ones failing to deal with reality. You are the one in a fantasy world. While we may have reached peak oil (and I'm still not convinced of that) we for damned sure aren't running out any time soon. Estimates from people that KNOW state 200-400 years of oil at least. Our only major problem now is the chicken little syndrome of people that just have to have some contrived emergency to use as a hammer to force their will on others. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Scientific progress will solve the first problem, but God save us from the willful ignorance and fear mongering of the second!

We're not running out of oil or fuel in my lifetime! ::) We are not running out of oil in my son's life time! ;D ;D What we are running out of is guts and intelligence.

BGG
Never considered the "capicator" angle of ark construction. Interesting.

jim

[Archangel]

An of the Conv. was built at Bringam Young Univ. in the 70-80's. The voltage it generated were dangerous and had to be destroyed. It has been some time but it seem to be a self charging cap/rectifier. I'll try to look it up.

My point was people don't need to wait they should try to figure things out. HELLO
Michael

[Tightwad]

"Seeing how this thread has degenerated to a discussion of Noah's Ark, I can see how much fantasy influences this discussion. *I'd suggest however we discuss the search for the Holy Grail instead. *Jesus's cup must be the ultimate source of plentiful energy that will solve all our problems!
*
On second thought though it might be best for you all to keep you fantasies. *Once you are out of gas and sitting on the curb on the side of the road you will need all your fantasies to get you through the day, because you certainly won't be ready to deal with reality! "

Yes, I also was amazed that a thread about Oil and
it's possible replacement got preverted to a series
of comments about Noah and the ark.

CAN'T YOU PEOPLE STAY ON TOPIC? ::) ::)

Even some who disagree with the whole concept
of dwindling oil supplies managed to stay on topic.
WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO THOSE OF YOU
WHO CAN'T? ::)

[oldnndway]

I've made hydrogen several times over the years starting when I was 12 and had a science teacher at school that showed us how.

Simply mix some lye in water (I used a coke bottle to mix it in) then tear strips of tinfoil and put them down in the mixture.
It will start bubbling as the lye mixture consumes the aluminum and the bubbles are hydrogen gas.

We would put a balloon over the lip of the coke bottle to collect and hold the hydrogen.
It fills the balloon pretty fast.

Then tie off the balloon.
Hydrogen, being lighter than air, will cause the balloon to float.

I would tie a toilet paper tail (fuse) on it, light the paper and let it go.
When the lit paper got to the balloon it would cause a big, fiery explosion...very cool at night.

I showed this to one of my kids to use for a science project.
They got an A

[Archangel]

I think it not so far off as you may think, I was off on who built the ark

Richard Andrews, ark of the covenant

It is interesting reading on electric generating.
Just my 2 cents Michael

[Tightwad]

Richard Andrews, ark of the covenant

It is interesting reading on electric generating.


HUH? What the heck is that about?

Ark=Electricity?

Please explain.

[billy_goat_gruff]

TW, this thread is kinda like a six (or more) way, knockout ping pong match... The goal is to keep the ball in the air and anyone who wants a net or table just isn't playing the right game... :D ;D

For clarity (and JIMHO-ICBW -- just in my humble opinion, I could be wrong)

Thread topic - what can replace or replenish oil
Format - out of the box thinking (brainstorming)
Use - expansion of everyone's understanding, possibly even a couple of home experiments just for fun.
Format - bull session with associated joking around in among the tidbits of info

kawalekm, you shoulda, coulda, woulda hammered me on the Ark of the Covenant capacitor idea. Yes, it is a capacitor but some say it is also a microwave resonance type deal with the angel's wings serving as antennae. Resonance phenomena can split worlds in half once the resonance reaches certain levels. "Rout step" for all the military types... ;)

As for jargon, it is actually the bonds that have to be broken, hydrogen isn't made. There are ways of weakening bonds, however, mostly I think we are looking for ways to get natural forces to do much of the work for us without us having to pay for it. That is what happened with the oil deposits, nature made it just because that is what it does.

jim, the difference between whiners and winners is an h and an n - call it a need that one is willing to go through hell for...

whiners aren't willing to go through the h part so keep the h and lose the extra n while winners aren't willing to worry about the h part so lose it while getting the extra n they are after. JIMO.

All, Noah's ark was put forth as a possible fantasy since it hasn't been conclusively found. Word association brought the Ark of the Covenent and its associated energy phenomenon into the discussion.

And, kawalekm, the Holy Grail could serve as an energy source also if found. E = mc^2, ya know... ;D Of course, technology is going to have to be developed so that converting that much mass to energy doesn't cause the mushroom clouds that converting micrograms of mass produces...

Very interesting discussion guys... Thanks, even to the folks I'm picking on the hardest. It wouldn't be the same if you weren't in it.