Without Sanctuary....

[frostbite]

Powerful and sobbering.....


Without Sanctuary (http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/)

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

is there a website like this that shows people under saddam getting executed or tortured? i need some reinforcement on why iraq would be better off if we left saddam in power. i think i am supposed to feel some sort of quilt about the lynching pictures. i guess if i were alive back then i could have done the easy thing & just been "against" lynching people just because of their skin color, but never really "do" anything about it. i guess i wouldnt feel that quilty about not doing anything to free 50 million people from an evil dictator or the overall persecution of 80% of a society along with crimes against women & children.

[frostbite]

Maybe if we took a moment to look at the dark side of the American experience of the last century we won't be wanting to repeat those offenses in this new one

[tonyb]

That was before my time. I feel nothing. People keep bringing up the past, wounds will never heal.

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

wink wink frostbite......look a lil farther & you might see the similarities.

[alma]

Thank you, frostbite. love, alma

[frostbite]

wink wink frostbite......look a lil farther & you might see the similarities.

I'm not interested in the similarities, as it's a detraction that serves no useful purpose for this thread on American injustice.

My interest is in becoming a better human with a good soul. As America is my culture and home, it requires my full participation and involvement. To accomplish that requires knowledge of American history both good and bad, not Iraq's.

As I look at those images, it's not the dead that I'm interested in, but the circling pack of humans, often in their Sunday best, celebrating the hunt and the kill of another disposable human.

In those images one can find within the pack, children in whom there is no doubt that their parents, and elders had planted the seeds of racism, white supremacy, hate, bigotry and eliminationism. That legacy still looms large to this day.

[billy_goat_gruff]

Are you interested in facts, frostbite?

Bennie Simmons, picture #4 in that gallery, Anadarko, OK. *He was accused of killing a 16 year old girl.

Do you support murder as long as it is done by one of color, frostbite?

For what it is worth, we don't generally support vigilantes here-abouts anymore. The lawyer that defended McVeigh was one of our best in my opinion. He did it partly because we don't generally support vigilantes here-abouts anymore, IMO. *The feds had to play some games to make sure McVeigh was the lone bomber, again in my opinion. But, the Oklahoma lawyer did his best. And yeah, some cussed him for it...

What did those other fellows in your gallery do?

For what it is worth, folks with your position on all this showing up at the jail with guns was one of the cans of gasoline that was thrown on the fire in the Tulsa race riots. Look it up if you are interested in facts...

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

frostbite i understand that you are only interested in america because you dont want to admit the similarities between the mind set of terrorists & insurgents in the middle east and the racist people of america's past. reflection is a great way to learn but you can just look to today for evil in our midst.

[frostbite]

Are you interested in facts, frostbite?

Bennie Simmons, picture #4 in that gallery, Anadarko, OK. *He was accused of killing a 16 year old girl.

Do you support murder as long as it is done by one of color, frostbite?


...

........are you suggesting that a trial by jury to establish guilt or innocent is a waste of time, and that vigilante justice superceeds the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th amendments of the Bill of Rights?

[billy_goat_gruff]

frostbite, the innuendo was answered in my original post.

For what it is worth, we don't generally support vigilantes here-abouts anymore.
Please answer my direct questions:

Are you interested in facts, frostbite?

Do you support murder as long as it is done by one of color, frostbite?

What did those other fellows in your gallery do?
And if you are in the mood to do so, please also answer the innuendo in my post that there is no justice system in place, especially considering that the "anti-hate speech" bill has now been reintroduced in Congress.

The feds had to play some games to make sure McVeigh was the lone bomber, again in my opinion.
That bill appears to me to do nothing more than create a class of elites which cannot be criticized. So much for Ben Franklin's lively free speech debates that he recommended, don't you think...

[frostbite]

As to facts, you used the term "accused". *Without trial records from an OK criminal court for Bennie Simmons to support this fact, then you're basing your facts on hear say, and reaching the same collective conculsion of guilt as that mob.

[billy_goat_gruff]

And you are assuming...

Do you know how far I live from the town of Anadarko? If I have researched that case or not? Etc. Etc. Etc.

To answer the next attempt at distraction, if one takes a shot at, say, RangerRick and myself while we are peacefully dining at Denny's Restuarant, chances are good that one will not have their day in court. The media call it Oklahoma's "Make my Day" law.

That law which allows so-called "vigilante" response is available to ALL skin colors here . It does require a background check to screen out those who have a history of using the older definition of vigilante in their trip through this life, but one does not have to be a friend of the Mayor, or of the Police Chief, or of anyone else to utilize that law.

Do you have any facts you wish to share, or do you just want to spin? See the sidebar for the innuendo... *:D

[RangerRick]

Go ahead fella, make my day. :)

Me and the Old Goat would have a bang up good time there Pilgrim. I'm always locked, he's always loaded.

;D

Rick

[frostbite]

It matters not one iota on how close you live to the site, or the amount of research you have, or have not done on this subject, Simmons is still innocent until he has had his day in court. You cannot provide that day!

What I would suggest is not using the word "accused", but instead "alleged". Once a jury has established guilt based on the evidence and reasonable doubt, then the term "accused" comes into play at which time the Court can then apply the appropriate remedy for an unlawful killing.

Vigilante murders cheats both the alleged, and the victim of justice, and serves no purpose other then revenge leaving no remedy for a proper sentence, appeals or reversals, or even the ability of the survivors to move on to a civil trial for monetary compensation.

As to the self defense example, it's a straw man argument that implies that mobs have the same rights of self defense as an individual citizen protecting his/her life. I don't think so, unless that is the law of the land in your area :o :o

Courts have established that once a threat is no longer a threat, then the right of self defense goes aways. Just as I don't see how a person who is shackled hand and foot, and led by a rope to his/her doom can be a threat to a mob, I suspect that a court would also consider the same.

[frostbite]

frostbite i understand that you are only interested in america because you dont want to admit the similarities between the mind set of terrorists & insurgents in the middle east and the racist people of america's past. *reflection is a great way to learn but you can just look to today for evil in our midst. *

I've reflected on these subjects on several other forums at considerable length, would you like a seperate thread to expound on?

[Rick_O_Shea]

What I would suggest is not using the word "accused", but instead "alleged". Once a jury has established guilt ... then the term "accused" comes into play ...


This is utterly wrong. The "alleged" criminal is the "accused", and stands before a jury of peers to decide on their guilt. It is perfectly correct to refer to a suspect/defendant as "accused".

Once judged guilty by a jury, they are no longer "accused" - they are "convicted".

[frostbite]

Breaking out the legal dictionary

allege - to claim a fact is true, commonly in a complaint which is filed to commence a lawsuit.

allegation - a statement of claimed fact contained in a complaint (a written pleading filed to begin a lawsuit), a criminal charge, or an affirmative defense (part of the written answer to a complaint). Until each statement is proved it is only an allegation. Some allegations are made "on information and belief" if the person making the statement is not sure of a fact.

accuse - to charge formally with a wrong doing.

complaint - the first document filed with the court by a person or entity claiming legal rights against another...Complaints are pleadings and must state the factual as well as legal basis for the claim...

pleadings - the act of preparing and presenting legal documents and arguments that are clear, logical, well-organized, comprehensive, and including all essential facts.

conviction - the result of a criminal trial in which the defendant has been found guilty of a crime.

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

oh my god he has busted out the old definition trick!

[billy_goat_gruff]

mobs, or rather the citizenry, are supposed to have the right to self defense according to what used to be the law of the land, frostbite. They also had a duty to practice stuff so they didn't remain disorganized, which appears to me to be the only difference between the words mob and citizenry...

"Let's roll!" means "let us roll!", not "let me roll."

Oh, well. You ever going to answer those questions I asked? Talk about strawmen... *:D * ;D * ;D

Uh, yes, Oliver, some of us do enjoy the inane at times. I'll try to get better at ignoring... but this one was kinda fun! *:)

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

billy i thought the "let me roll" comment was funny but i thought the "army of one" slogan for the army was equivalent. i wanna know what idiot made that the slogan for recruiting for the us army!

[Rick_O_Shea]

oh my god he has busted out the old definition trick!

Yeah...and I'm not sure whether frostbite realizes that it confirms my comment...

[alma]

Thank you, again, frostbite.

History seems to be repeating itself, but in many more subtle forms, not just here, but around the world.

The lust for blood takes many forms, and is done by "saints" and "sinners" alike. love, alma

[billy_goat_gruff]

History seems to be repeating itself, but in many more subtle forms, not just here, but around the world.

love, alma
You are quite correct, alma. History does repeat itself here and around the world. I am specifically speaking here of the manipulation of data to serve an agenda.

I would suggest you read this short article about lynching of both black and white, then return to frostbite's link and see how much has been left out (assuming anything has been.)
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/lynching/lynching_2.html

Chairman Mao said it best - ALL political power comes from the barrel of a gun. Your personal history should tell you that also.

alma, are they comrades if they want to take away your weapons, or otherwise place you at a disadvantage? or are they just a lynch mob which is ensuring its own survival? Your personal history should also be able to answer those questions quite definitely.

As for blood lust... The old saying is "Power corrupts." What greater power is there than that of life and death? I doubt it is blood lust, just power that has no checks and balances. As always, I could be wrong...

[alma]

In answer to your comment, my personal history tells me that cancer is my very real, and very clear, and very present danger. This is my enemy.

You could take up arms and run all over the world looking for him and he would forever elude you.

That simply is not the way to go when you're looking for this enemy. It doesn't care whether you are black or white, but it is far more likely to kill you if you are not armed with the info and wherewithall that leads you to early detection.

This is the enemy that i chose to be concerned with, and not be distracted and have all my nation's resources given to "lynching" the whole world one way or another, one name or another, one excuse or another. In my opinion, it is a vain pursuit, and profits us nothing, nor them.

In answer to another question about whites being lynched, too:
if i am correct, there were a couple of immigrants lynched many years ago when it was not safe to be an irish catholic in america.

They happened to be passing along a railroad track and right through a town the night of a murder.

Later, the towns folks learned that someone else had done it.

My cousin who studies history had the govenor set the record straight and gave them a pardon a few years ago.

A lot of good it did for them. They were not even citizens of america at the time, just having arrived from the old country. I guess their decendants got the pardon.

However, i think the blacks were lynched at the drop of a pin. I wasn't there, so don't know, but i sure know how they were treated until just a few years ago in my lifetime.

I am deeply saddened to see so many blacks involved in drive by shootings over drug turf, etc. and see them killing themselves while under the influence of one drug or another.

I know that, in france there were a lot of lynching at one time. I don't know whether or not it happened before the revolution there, or the socio economic conditions there at that time.

When i lived in d.c., my hubby and i would be on call at times to collect young white kids from some bethesda places to deliver home.

--and they were doing the same thing, killing themselves with overdoses and fighting one another over drugs and turf.

--and i know that thousands of americans sentence themselves to a long, hard death by cancer from smoking cigs, alone.

I know how many people are killed by drunk drivers in american. and how many are wounded for life.

I know how many millions of american unwanted babies, black and white, are killed in their mother's womb.

--and i know how many millions have been killed in
warfare in my time, of all colors and creeds, socio and economic and national conditions, and it is ALL wrong.

I know that something is terribly wrong with the human condition that allows and justifies these things for any reason. This killing mentality is contagious, and takes on many other forms. love, alma

[333]

Peace

Well not to be to blunt but these types of issues are exactly the reason we were given a constitutional democratic republic, "if we can keep it" by the founders. They irrivocably knew what the extremist danger of "democracy" is "mobocracy". Just like the reactions post sept. 11th and look how it turned out . No criminals ever brought to justice only one scumbag dictator thrown to the wolves for other atrocities. How many innocent iraqis and red blooded salt of the earth americans dead?? Wheres the "evil " osama??? And where is our trillions of dollars surplus???

Republic== Represented Educated Responsible Public.
Democracy== a tyranical despotic mob waiting to happen.

There is nothing new here that hasnt happened throughout the eons of history.

Judge not on the things that have been or might be, but by what we do in the moment of now. (me)

Peace

[frostbite]

Yeah...and I'm not sure whether frostbite realizes that it confirms my comment...

Yes I do... ;D I've takened a bit of time to look over my postings, and see where I erred :-[ :-[ :-[....so, feel free to hang me if you're up for a cyber lynching.. ;)


however, the curiosity still remains for me why some of you consider those who were lynched automatically guiltly, and deserving of this fate.... ???

None the less, this thread has been beaten to death, and going nowhere. I'll find another topic from the dark side of the human experience as a few of you seem (and here, I could be in err again) to relish and enjoy the sufferings of those undeserving of compassion, or fair play in your world. :o

[billy_goat_gruff]

Nice post, frostbite. Welcome to the gang...

Who on here said that the ones lynched were guilty? I didn't see that, except as an accusation from you. Accused doesn't mean guilty, it means accused. ;)

Yeah, you weren't the only one doing a bit of the "governor's two-step." Simmons was accused... Only the dead will ever know if he was guilty, and it doesn't matter if he had a trial or not, they would still not absolutely know.

The article that alma probably didn't get to read thoroughly due to being sick indicated that lynchings have been declining in America due to the public feeling that the justice system is actually doing its job, being fair and delivering actual justice. Lynchings aren't a current concern.

My thought in bringing that up is that if the public feeling once again becomes that the justice system is no longer fairly dishing out justice then vigilante action could be in our future, instead of only in our past. That includes lynchings. Ever heard the term "Just Us" system? Those words bother me at times because, well, I get scared too.

However, on the bright side, that article also stated that slavery was ended by the Emancipation Proclamation... That piece of paper may have helped U.S. Grant's army's guns end slavery in the rebellious states but it did not end it in the United States. There was a constitutional amendment that did that, so, maybe the article should be taken with a grain of salt... :D

As for the white dudes that got lynched out west, they usually fit the profile of ne'er-do-wells that finally went just a tad too far. The article didn't expand on those lynchings either. Another grain of salt, perhaps?

Bottom line: anger and fear... They do seem to be wonderful weapons in the fight to get the ordinary folks to NOT to think about things... Guilt works also occasionally...

Again, welcome to the gang.