Minuteman Civil Defense Corps

[pancho]

Chris Simcox, founder and president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC), is accustomed to defending himself against the constant barrage of criticism from human rights activists on his political left flank. But now he's under attack from the right as well, as prominent anti-immigration leaders across the country have blasted Simcox in recent weeks with accusations that he's a charlatan, a sellout, and a traitor to their cause.

"Simcox doesn't seem to know that his days on the Minuteman gravy train are ended," says California Coalition for Immigration Reform hate group leader Barbara Coe.

Other former allies lining up against Simcox include Jim Gilchrist, who co-founded the original Minuteman Project with Simcox last year; American Border Patrol hate group head Glenn Spencer; anti-Semite and former Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) field team chief Joe McCutchen; Americans for Mass Deportation founder Liz DeMarco; and Save Our State hate group leader Joe Turner.

The pivot point on which Simcox's own kind turned against him is his refusal to account for the $1.6 to $1.8 million in private donations he estimates MCDC raised, including $600,000 for the "Minuteman Border Fence," -- a slick fundraising campaign with a stated goal of $55 million. Simcox pledged the money raised by the campaign would go to build a high-tech security barrier along 70 miles of private ranchland on the Arizona border. Mass-mailed MCDC solicitations and full-page color advertisements in The Washington Times since mid-April promoted the Minuteman Border Fence as an "Israeli-style" barrier "based on the fences used in Gaza and the West Bank." Fundraising illustrations depict a 6-foot trench and coils of concertina wire backed by a 15-foot steel-mesh fence crowned with bulletproof security cameras. Estimated cost: $150 per foot.

Construction began Memorial Day weekend with much fanfare. Since then, MCDC volunteers erected just over two miles of five-strand barbed wire attached to short metal posts. What they built is a standard cattle fence, costing about $1.50 per foot, or about one one-hundredth the cost of the advertised "Israeli-style" barrier.

So far, in other words, the Minuteman Border Fence hasn't come to much. "It wouldn't stop a tricycle," American Border Patrol's Glenn Spencer posted in a recent online tirade. "It's shameful that [Simcox] would deceive the American people in this way."

Simcox did not respond to three E-mails and two voicemail messages seeking comment for this story. But in an open statement to the media he released in late July, he denied deceiving MCDC donors.

"The next section [of the fence] built will be the full Israeli-style fence, with construction commencing soon," he promised. "Our precise timetable will depend upon resolving a few lingering engineering issues. It will NOT depend upon the ill-informed hostility of those seeking our failure, or wishing to stir up controversy and increase donations to their foundering organizations."

At press time, the MCDC had yet to begin constructing the "Israeli-style" fence. Also, Simcox has denied all requests by current and former MCDC members and donors as well as journalists to release any MCDC financial records. He will not say where the money is, how much has been spent, or for what, and he lashes out at anyone inside or outside his organization who dares question his honesty or authority. Gary Cole, the MCDC's former national director of operations, said he was fired last summer for "asking too many questions about the money."

[billy_goat_gruff]

pancho, have you read the copyright post that Oliver said we all need to read? It is on the New Members - Please Read Board above.

A link:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/yabb/forum.pl?board=bhm-newmembers;action=display;num=1154444870

A google of "Chris Simcox, founder and president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps" found the article with the following at the bottom of the page... (one has to scroll down quite aways due to sidebars)

Unattributed reproduction of material
from any SPLCenter.org page is strictly prohibited.
© Copyright 2005 Southern Poverty Law Center

You might want to attribute articles with a link in the future. You might not.

Not my deal...

[pancho]

Copyright law is defined by the international Berne Convention, for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, which covers written materials, photography, illustrations, and sketches, but doesn't cover news of the day, newspaper articles, posts on internet forums, or to miscellaneous facts having the character of items of press information.

[RangerRick]

http://www.minutemanhq.com/bf/

http://www.minutemanhq.com/bf/pl7.php

http://i12.tinypic.com/2vv2bur.jpg

[admin]

Copyright law is defined by the international Berne Convention, for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, which covers written materials, photography, illustrations, and sketches, but doesn't cover news of the day, newspaper articles, posts on internet forums, or to miscellaneous facts having the character of items of press information.

You are incorrect on a few points.

While news of the day, ie, what happened, is not subject to copyright, an author's unique description and associated commentary is copyrightable. That is why you can't use an AP story in your newspaper unless you subscribe to the service.

Likewise, posting on an Internet Forum does not place your words in the public domain. Each poster retains the copyright over his/her words.

On the other hand, quoting parts of an article as part of your commentary might be considered "Fair Use." However, you should always include a link to the story both as a courtesy to the publisher and to allow readers to check out the story for themselves where it was published."

You may also be interested to know that Berne conventions are not self-executing under US law but are, in fact, subject to domestic law.

If you believe me to be in error, here is a link to the Title 17 pages at the US Copyright Office website. I'm always open to correction if you can find the specific exclusions you claimed.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/


Oliver

[ASG]

Copyright law is defined by the international Berne Convention, for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, which covers written materials, photography, illustrations, and sketches, *but doesn't cover news of the day, newspaper articles, posts on internet forums, or to miscellaneous facts having the character of items of press information.


That is a US group, based in the US, and a US site you took that from, and they can copyright their site under US copyright protection laws. You must both cite the source and copying it all is of questionable legality.

[billy_goat_gruff]

This one is still not my deal, but do have an opinion or two...

1st opinion is that if pancho had dropped a link in then it would have been fair use...

2nd opinion is that I shouldn't get miffed when there are four pages, and a link isn't provided so I can read the last 3 pages...

3rd opinion is that Oliver is being much too nice by using the word should in the following. I've taken the liberty of changing it to what I would have said had I been responsible for this place with all us irrascible folks on here posting stuff...


However, you *should will *always include a link to the story both as a courtesy to the publisher and to allow readers to check out the story for themselves where it was published."
Oliver
I await your opinion on my opinion here, Oliver.

4th opinion is that I should start looking at the main screen and checking the boards with new stuff in them instead of relying on the last 50... Illegal immigration is a big problem but a constant barrage leads to tune-out...

And the last opinion is that I'm not very interested in responding to articles which have no commentary. I'm interested in the forum members' opinion, whether I agree or not, of articles not in the articles themselves.

Guess I'm just opinionated today...

[Tightwad]

"opinion is that I should start looking at the main screen and checking the boards with new stuff in them instead of relying on the last 50... Illegal immigration is a big problem but a constant barrage leads to tune-out... "

Exactly.

[billy_goat_gruff]

Uh-oh... We are in agreement about something, TW? That's scary, man! :D ;D ;D

Actually, most of the folks on here agree about something or other so I'm just kidding you there. And, we all differ on a topic or two...

If we stuck to the things we agreed on when talking on other's threads then there wouldn't be all the hullabaloo, but that is kinda obvious to the most casual observer (a phrase straight out of a calculus book, I kid you not!) It wouldn't be BHM forum if we did though.

So, what do you think? Should folks drop a link in when re-posting articles or not? That was the thrust of my posts on this thread. Yea or nay... ;)

[RangerRick]

And the last opinion is that I'm not very interested in responding to articles which have no commentary. I'm interested in the forum members' opinion, whether I agree or not, of articles not in the articles themselves.

Guess I'm just opinionated today...

Regarding the above my friend, fortunately we all have that option here however I'm of the opinion of posting an article of national importance as starting the ball to rolling. *Of course I'm more than happy to jump in but it's always interesting to get a bit of input from some of the wise old sages of the "Backwoods" variety. *Not that replies are always intelligent but I'm also a firm believer in allowing others to extract their pound of flesh, however warped. *I find this an extremely exciting manner in which to generate debate. *Now of course if I happen to be at one of these events that make headlines well you can and have heard my own commentary.

Now, in the past few days I have noticed an explosion of illegal aliens events that have resulted in horrendous crimes against American citizens. *If these events were just random then I feel they would warrant random postings. *Unfortunately, this tidal wave of illegal alien crimes against our fellow Americans seems to be running at a helter skelter pace however we are not hearing of these murderous events. *If, God forbid one of our brother/sister Backwoods members was to fall pray to any one of the crimes aforementioned then they would be raising the alarm to one and to all. *My feeble attempts of late are to bring the terrible crimes committed by the illegal aliens invading our country to the forefront of "OUR" thinking and conversations.

While we have a cadre of concerned citizens here that see the need to speak their concerns, unfortunately, many here just don't want to be bothered. *I am saddened at the amount of apathy of those here that consider themselves freedom loving Americans but I find to some extent little more than mouthwash patriots. *I pray America will wake up and smell the invasion before it kicks in their front doors.

Thank you for your concerns and in the future I'll attempt to include a bit of my own commentary with articles I post.

Rick

[Tightwad]

"While we have a cadre of concerned citizens here that see the need to speak their concerns, unfortunately, many here just don't want to be bothered. *I am saddened at the amount of apathy of those here that consider themselves freedom loving Americans but I find to some extent little more than mouthwash patriots. *I pray America will wake up and smell the invasion before it kicks in their front doors.
*
Thank you for your concerns and in the future I'll attempt to include a bit of my own commentary with articles I post. "

Rick, it's one thing to make your peers aware of a
topic or issue but quite another to do it in a manner that alienates your audience which has been your
way to post. THAT would turn anybody off. Once
you lose your audience you are only making noise.
That is not what you want I'm sure.

The better way is to discuss the issue calmly giving
the audience a chance to digest what you offer before
serving up more bad news. As it is now you've made
yourself a ridiculous annoyance which totally defeats
what you're trying to do.

Now before you or your friends get your back all
up please know that I'm trying to help you get
your message out in a better way. One that works.

Post your topic in the CORRECT forum with your
comments then wait until it is discussed before
offering another similar topic. You will find both welcome and good discussion on issues that are important to
you.

[billy_goat_gruff]

Tough man contest, Rick? *;D *I done one or two of those, supposedly with boxing rules. First time I ever got my nose broken... *Ahh, fond memories... not.

Not every day is saturday for me, so sometimes I might not say it exactly right maybe? Change the "not" to a "more than" in my quote and it will be more accurate. I'll stand by it as written though if one wants me to.

EDIT - did it again. Change the LAST not, not the others... ::) Doh, as they say...

That opinion was actually aimed at pancho since this is his thread, but included all comers... No smiley, just like when you talk about illegal immigration. Dead serious topic, dead serious discussion.

If anyone wants me to respond about the topic, include commentary with a re-post. Otherwise, re-posting articles is a possible trolling technique and I suspect you know that. If not, you do now. Note the word possible please. Re-posting is also a way of ensuring friends know of things they might not be aware of, which is what I think you are doing. Thank you since some of the details I wasn't aware of. Many I am...

The offer is still good on me buying at the buffet. Sorry it won't be Saturday since you are headed out of town, hope your trip is a success, and say hi to the folks in that part of the world for me if you will.

Oh, and just to be mean, if you want to come up my way wednesday night to look at the lights, I promise to hit you up for some money to pay the electric... yeah, I volunteered and that is where they put me. *:D

BTW, Sam is really excited about meeting you again. What did you do to the kid anyway? Hope you will have some more good stories for him when we finally do get together again.

Take care, my friend.

[RangerRick]

No tough man contest here, just playing around with a couple of the lads and I don't care much for rules as they usually arn't much benefit in a knife fight. *Of course, every now and then someone shows up dressed as a turkey or plain unarmed which has been happening of late.

I'd sure like to make it to your light show but we have church on Wednesday nights and afterwards I'll have the grandsons (4&6) for a sleep over. *What's doin Thrursday, I could bring Sweetie as well and maybe even throw one of the grandsons ATV's in the pickup for Sam to try on for size but that could prove to cost you if he liked it too much?

;D

How about sometime after the 1st for dinner, my treat as every day is Saturday.

;D

Rick

[billy_goat_gruff]

Thanks, Rick. There are only two rules I like to try to play by. If I had a better clue as to who/what God is instead of thinking of this big amorphous entity that synergizes with love feelings and if I loved myself enough to not be willing to put up with my neighbors skinning my head while teaching me stuff, my life would be easier... *:D *;D *;D

I keep waiting for alma to go off about cointelpro as sooner or later someone is going to step on that nerve of hers... :-X

Church on Wednesdays... You probably should have a story or two for Sam about that. He and I were caught up in a purge at a church that wears your church's brand. A change of pastors, the old one let deeds decide leadership positions in the youth group and the new one wanted church membership to decide. They lost about half or a little more of the boys youth group leadership. And one board member, well, suffice it to say I should have called the cops and had him taken out of church one Wednesday night in bracelets... There is a reason I don't pack recognized hardware. Sam got fired twice (Sam couldn't go where his dad couldn't go back then, and his dad didn't go where he couldn't), with the associated "Oh, that was just a mistake!" speech in between. The former senior commander is now at your place although don't think he goes to the motorcycle guys service there... *;)

Basketball practice Thursday night. Wife would probably get that look in her eye when I suggested lil bro (he's pre-school age) should have supper around 7:30 - 8, plus he also has surgery that day for a new ear tube. The other tube tore out, and the docs say that the hole shouldn't be repaired till later on due to circumstances... Probably better not to ask me about that one. *>:(

Oh, and I'm still in trouble for letting my cousin take Sam around on his ATV down home... didn't help much when I just said something to the effect of guys are gonna be guys. *:D * Sometimes I wonder why our respective sweeties put up with all the testosterone. I probably wouldn't understand anyway, testosterone interference or something... *;)

Next week is clear but you'll be gone. All I have after the holidays is BB coaching. Maybe pancho will be kind enough to post another thread we can sideswipe after the 1st to set it up? * *;) *:D *:D

Think we should just pick a place and time and post it in the get-together board and see if any other central Okie BHM-ers show up for dinner and visiting? Example: southside golden corral, such-n-such day, such-n-such time? ? ?

[RangerRick]

Boy, just like a true democrat, ya gotta have everything your way. *OK, I'll give ya a holler after the 1st and we can put on the old feed bag.
;D

Well, I got the ATV's for the 4&6 year olds and they do have "throttle limiters" or they would have tore down my fencing by now but I do understand mommies and their delicacy of heart concerning sons.

Now as to sideswipping, I really have to work at it and honestly just don't get much joy from it as there is usually no crux of truth to said drivel and soooo easily refuted, consequently pure BS really speaks for itself.

I equate most church families to porcupine families. *If everyone is moving towards the same goal everything works fairly well but you just let one get there eye off of the goal, get turned a little sideways and folks can get "pricked". *Some things ya just have to work at and of course keep your eye on the goal.
;D

As you know I've lived all over and in that time I haven't found a perfect church family yet and actually a few pastors that were more concerned with themselves and their programs than "the reason for the season" so to speak. * Kinda like BHM. *Ya get some crack head spouting off about the inhumanity suffered by the poor downtrodden illegal aliens that are invading our country and committing hideous crimes with wanton abandon and all hell breaks out. *I try to remember that we all put on our pants one leg at a time, unfortunately some put in a bit too much time around the potato bowl and just get too big for those pants and I fear cuts off blood flow to the brain. *It's important I think to keep our focus on the important things of this world and our place in it.
;)

Rick

[billy_goat_gruff]

You have a deal.

And, amen to the thoughts about keeping the focus on the reason for the season. Absolutely right about all the various "families" also... Family is important whether BHM or...

And, was hinting that you should invite Sam down... He was a mite young for it at the time but he loved that group of kids. You guys have a good group also, so "rumor" says, and I've asked him to go visit at least twice. Bad memories do strange things to folks sometimes... Besides your church is closer to my place than the one discussed above. :)

[RangerRick]

I've spent a few years in the RR program myself. *Really had a good crew in Alaska - a real good group of kids. Couple busted noses, skinned shins, hair line fracture and only one broken arm. Those kids really had a thing for sledding down mountainsides. I probably wasn't such a good leader but I'm great at first aid.

;D

Just so happens my son-in-law & his dad lead the 7 year olds. *I talked to the guy that has the 8 year olds tonight and he's top notch. *FYI, they have a very "active" program which is a bit more than my blood pressure should be subjected to.

;D *

I've been for the past 7 years in a Promise Keepers men's group that meets every Tuesday @ 0615. *The guy that just took over the RR Program *has been one of our Promise Keepers *since the beginning and a top notch guy that has raised a couple of good ones. *He doesn't ride a bike by the way, mostly Harley guys there so I don't fit well either with the Goldwing, so please convey my invitation to Sam as I know he will be welcome. *Looking forward to lunch.

YBIC,

Rick

[billy_goat_gruff]

Double check - 0615 or 1815? I'm more of a night owl, however, have very good memories of the Surrey group that didn't make it through the new building vs. outreach schism. I reserve the right to crash any party, and to accept the consequences thereof!! ;)

My group was the 5-6-7 kids. I was looking for scouting with church support for Sam. Didn't want membership eligibility questions to interfere with him learning things while having some fun.

Will pass the word along, he just turned 9 this fall, btw.

[RangerRick]

That would be 6:15 AM for you civilians @ the donut shop for copious quanties of coffee, come on down. *The locals get to hear us pray and talk about God's Word. *It's a witness.

Son-in-Laws dad has the 9 year olds. As there are bunches of kids they split em up exact age appropriate so no one lords it over little ones. *No requirements just a warm body but can't tell ya much about content as I'm no longer in program.

Rick