The future of energy ...

[ozarksnick]

if we can get enough dollars into research.

http://www.zpenergy.com/

This is one of the most exciting things that I've ever read about.

Imagine it, nearly free energy for anyone and everyone.

Can you imagine being able to drive your car without stopping for fuel ... ever?

The reason I bring this up now is that I recently discovered that someone has made a working small-scale model of a ZPE generator.

http://www.cheniere.org/
http://www.movermike.com/posts/1148150145.shtml

[ryanmercer]

" Has produced up to 100 times more power than was input, by extracting free energy from the vacuum. The MEG has been independently constructed, and its overunity performance independently replicated, by other researchers. US Patent awarded March 26, 2002. Invented by Tom Bearden and four colleagues."

*coug*bullspit*cough*

[ozarksnick]

Wolf, why do you say that?

The patent was issued, the device was constructed.

Keep in mind that the "100 times energy inputed" figure you quoted is still very very little energy.

[fredusa]

'Nick, I tend toward what ryanmercer says also. Over unity devices have been touted and ballyhooed, literally, for centuries. So far, as near as I can determine, not a single one has actually come to fruition!
I will continue to reseach this, and haven't time tonight to do more that the quick scan of the sites you gave us. But, as for these over unity devices, I gotta tell you that I am a HUGE skeptic!
That having been said, I feel the need to (again!) assure you that in less than 3-4 years we can be COMPLETELY energy independent ON A PERSONAL level, and without the uses of zero point, or vacuum energies, of any kind, and certainly staying within the realm of physical universe physics WITHOUT going to over unity devices. BTW, being a journalist, doesn't a perpetual energy device seem science fiction, at best, to you? And is that not what an over unity device must be?

[fredusa]

Ug! ;) Touche!
Yes, indeed, but ozarksnick spoke of a zeropoint energy, and I responded to that, not to the idea of a windmill, and the captured energy flowing past.
In fact, such captured energy, changed to something more useable is what I work on quite constantly.
BTW, an over unity device would be one in which one would input, say, 1 volt, and get, as an output, 1 volt plus (the "plus" being anything over zero). In other words, whether using wind, solar, geothermal, or ANY other form of energy, to input an amount and to get out of the device MORE than that input. This does, BTW, violate the known laws of physics.
Now, by speaking of the "known laws of physics" I am not trying to say that we already "know" all that is necessary. What I am saying is that an overunity device would be one of those pesky "perpetual motion" thingees.
And, just for clarification---not a single one of my inventions does anything of the kind! You lose, on any scale, something, during the transfer of energy from one form to another. My inventions, though, use accepted physics, usually in some new method. But, if there is a 3% loss of overall effectiveness, or overall efficeincy, I can live with that. 'Cause, most simply collect energies that are otherwise going to waste, and use them in a fundamental way! And there is, truly, no need for over unity, nor anything of that nature.

[ozarksnick]

Hehe... wow. All I did was find a newspaper article that talked about a machine that could make energy from apparently nothing.

I don't know what in the world all this "over unity" stuff is. And the only thing I know about zero-point energy is what I learned in that article.

As a journalist I find myself constantly being curious about new things, I know one of my bigger faults. ;)

And fred, you got to remember science fiction of the last century is now science fact.

I also tend to believe that we don't know squat about this universe and it's physics anyway.

[ryanmercer]

Wolf, why do you say that?

The patent was issued, the device was constructed.

Keep in mind that the "100 times energy inputed" figure you quoted is still very very little energy.


Something doesn't have to actually work for there to be a patent issued. A guy named Alex Chiu has "immortality" rings that are patented... but that doesn't mean his cheap magnets in cheap plastic rings do anything for you.

[ryanmercer]

I also tend to believe that we don't know squat about this universe and it's physics anyway.

You can say that again :)

[ozarksnick]

You can say that again :)


I'm just waiting for the day when the science folks have to come out and say "Everything we thought we knew was wrong ... we've found such-and-such theory now that rules how the universe works."

We humans are so conceited. To think we've got everything figured out after only a century or so of real scientific exploration.

[quux]

We humans are so conceited. To think we've got everything figured out after only a century or so of real scientific exploration.

And if you find any scientist who claims that ... be sure to point him/her out to all the other practicing scientists, who could all use a good laugh.

Seriously. Science starts from the proposition that we don't know enough, so lets investigate something to learn more about it. Sheesh.

[fredusa]

Hehe... wow. All I did was find a newspaper article that talked about a machine that could make energy from apparently nothing.

I don't know what in the world all this "over unity" stuff is. And the only thing I know about zero-point energy is what I learned in that article.

As a journalist I find myself constantly being curious about new things, I know one of my bigger faults. ;)

And fred, you got to remember science fiction of the last century is now science fact.

I also tend to believe that we don't know squat about this universe and it's physics anyway.

Hmmm,'nicks, didn't I say that in my post? And further words where you claim the "conceit" of hu-mans---was that some attempted dig at me? Look above---you will see where I said that I don't claim that we know all of physics. Does that help you?
You also went on to show some upset because "all I did was show a newspapaper article"----but your post indicated an agreement with it, so I was trying to show you some fault of it. You asked ryanmercer why he said what he did---I tried to clarify, as did he a bit later. Then you either show, or, at least, feign, hurt feelings because we did so?
ONCE AGAIN -------NO I do not think we have all of the answers to physics. But, I've been reading, and hearing, and even seeing on TV, people working on these zero point energies. People, also, working on perpetual energy devices. I said it in the previous post, I've said in , literally HUNDREDS of previous posts, and now I've said it again. But, having said that, I will also say (again) that NOT A SINGLE ONE HAS EVER COME TO FRUITION!
Now, I've already explained what is meant by an over unity device, and I'll not bother to do so again. You need only to read what is written. I will, however, tell you that it is my firm belief that in the physical worlds you can not create energy, and this is what an over unity device would be doing.
And, I'll further tell you that over unity is QUITE unnecessary anyway! So, while it is interesting to contemplate something like this, most are simply an attempt by someone to get suckers to "invest" in this newfound energy creater.

[ozarksnick]

Whoa whoa whoa Fred. No digs, no upset.

My post was intended to be light and jovial. Sorry for the miscommunication.

[fredusa]

'S'alright!

[fredusa]

Out of curiosity, and, since I did say I'd spend a bit more time when I had it to spare, I went back to the ZPenergy site, and read what was there.
But, frankly, I didn't find anything there! Yeah, a bunch of words about how honest they are, about how they are not affiliated with anyone else, etc., but not a thing about their studies, research, links to those who are doing, nor anything else of solidity!
Yes, as does ozarksnick, they mention that they don't think we have all of physics sorted out. A thought which I, also, advanced in my first post on this thread. And that every "breakthrough" in science comes from/with a new perspective, etc. Which I also agree with.
But, even without some new breakthrough in the world of physics, one would still have to believe that, either we are "creating" energy from nothing (in order for us to input 1 volt and output 1volt plus---the definition of an over unity device), or, it would seem that we a stealing energy from, perhaps, an alternate universe or something.
Here, to my way of thinking, would be a simple equation for reality in our universe :

1volt in= 1volt out, MINUS losses in efficiency from things like friction, etc. Even if one can find a way to reach an efficiency of 99.999%, there will always be a LOSS in output, not a gain!

[kawalekm]

I think that this discussion on zero point energy is really a little example of a much broader issue we are facing right now. We ARE running out of oil soon, and people just don't want to face that. They grip hold of any energy fantasy like ZPE, or nuclear fusion and say "it's OK, they'll come up with a solution". Well, I don't think that's going to happen. James Kunstler writes about this mentality in his book "The Long Emergency". Those people who think that ZPE, fusion, or the hydrogen fuel cell will save us will be the ones shivering in the dark some winter soon. It's time to stop thinking that the scientists, or the government, or anybody else is going to come to the rescue. We must all be thinking of energy idependence NOW that we can creat by ourselves, or else we will be all a group of have-nots. I myself am now building my retreat, and its being designed with all alternative energy sources in mind. I want passive solar, active solar, windmills, and wood heat. I bought a diesel truck to run biodiesel. When the tap runs dry, I for one will be ready!

[fredusa]

Hey, ug, you are right---the littlest troll was a fave of mine for a long time! Will get with the sites when I have a bit more time. For now, however, let me ask if YOU went to the ZPenergy site and found something I couldn't? What I saw was a bunch of fluff!
Now, as to the overunity thing----ZP does NOT necessarily mean overunity, but it comes close. And NO, we, as hu-mans DO NOT create energy, unless you feel that by striking a match in the vicinity of an explosive substance "creates" energy. I believe that it RELEASES energy that is already there. And, if zero point, or vacuum energy harvesting does something like that---well, okay. If, however, one inputs a total POTENTIAL energy of 1, then you would get 1 minus in output. I see no way around that.
And, once again, for those searching, or, "searching", for those "new" energy sources in those exotic places, I think they are on a fools errand! Or are into what has been called, in the gold mining industry, pocketbook mining. That's where the owner salt thier claim and con investors into the production of bank accounts rather than the production of gold.
Kawalekm, yes, you are right about the idea of preparing for yourself on a personal level. That's what we must all do. However, there are some things about to come online, and it doesn't involve oil, or Big Oil, nor Government (which ALSO has an agenda due to the politicians being bought off by so many special interests), and, since most scientific research is supported via governmental grants, I don't see the normal scientific houses finding us alternatives either.
Listen carefully to this, however, :

It shall be the little guy---the guy working from his/her basement, or garage laboratory, which will find that source that will maintain us WAAAAY into the future---without raping the planet, and without raping your pocketbook!

But, don't tell gov't. or big business---cause they don't want that to happen until they can find THE way to milk it for themselves!

[fredusa]

"Ug-done"?? Let me bow my head for a second or six in memory!
Okay, enough of the maudlin tears for a cyberspacian!
'Gruff, my belief that it will be the little guy who finds some of the answers is based upon myself! Well, truth to tell, I ain't so little, but Ihave lost almost 50 pounds over the last year and a half or so!
Anyway, I have hinted at a couple of my processes here several times, but can't give them away. But there is, and it's REALLY not far off, a new use for an old process, or two, or three, which will soon be demonstrated to the world, which will, for some time, actually SOLVE the current energy "crisis", and be available on the small scale for the individuals use. An easy to work with, hard to get in trouble with kind of a thing. You, in fact, are probably the one person who, if your memory is not as short as some folks, anyway(!), may have some handle on what I refer to.
Mom nature has provided us with so many things besides food and water! We just need to find ways to incorporate them into our needs.
Let's see---Mom gave us the horse, and the camel, and the jackass, and for centuries hu-mankind used these for transportation and freighting.
Mom gave us wind, and for centuries hu-mankind used that for grinding grain, for pumping water, etc.
Mom gave us trees, and for centuries hu-mankind used them for heat, for shelter, for writing paper, for boats, etc.
And Mom has given us the means to provide for our own energy production---for transport, for electrical energy, etc. Someone has to recognize a new fangled use for and old fangled (is there such a thing as old fangled?) Mom nature gift!
Yes, you are right, it takes money---more than I wish to think about---and that such things as government grants, etc. will NOT be terribly forthcoming for "alternatives" despite the rhetoric coming from Washington. So, once again, if we are to come up with anything NOT in the mainstream, it WILL be the garage lab guy which will bring it to us.
Yeah, I remember when Richard Nixon was our president. He told us that the "only" energy that would be viable for the future was nuclear. Now our president is into the hydrogen economy, and THAT is the "only" thing we can really look toward!
Not only are/were both of these fellows wrong, to me, they are looking completely in the wrong direction!

[gentledenny]

i seen on tv a interview where a man stated that honda was fixing to come out with a hydrogen powerplant thingie that sat in your garage and produced hydrogen for you hyrdogen powered car and also produced hydrogen in a form that was used to power your home. of course i believe a lot of junk. but anyway said there was someplace where you could order the powerplant at this time already but honda will be introducing it in a year or two.

[edward_4576]

Here's something of interest. I contacted them and they don't have distributeres in the US yet. From my contaqcts they think maybe next year.

http://www.whispergen.com/

[fredusa]

edward---excellent use of the Stirling engine! The use of a device which turns via heat differential.
I've not worked with the Stirling myself, but have followed it for a while. These things certainly do work, but generally are low horsepower engines. But, in a battery storage system one only needs a small amount of hp spread over a fairly long time to be effective. And solar can easily be the provider of heat differential.
Hey, 'Gruff, I know you are still here, what's the deal with the removal of your posts on this thread?

[alma]

Isn't this Bearden guy the one who had documented much of tesla's work. If so, he sure ought to be looked at long and hard, because he must have a lot of info we are not privy to.

Actually, isn't the bumble bee NOT supposed to be able to fly?

Haven't i heard this somewhere.

I sure dont understand 98% of this stuff, but it is fun thinking about all kinds of "impossible" things that the next generation will have access too. love, alma

[billy_goat_gruff]

fred, I put up a "Commenting, visiting, et cetera" post elsewhere to Oliver.

Oliver was acting, uh, well, let's say stressed. I took down ALL my posts cause they were mine. If Oliver decided I was a stressor, and I got blown away, well, they were mine...

I think Oliver left the thread over in the comment area for a while. Oliver's back on his feed, so I'm putting and leaving my posts up again. Except for one that was poorly worded and caused problems (PM's solved them.)

Which post did you want back? I can probably do it without looking much stuff up as I love to keep up with the other side... They connect to my dreams, man. When we lose our dreams then we lose our soul, and it doesn't matter how illogical those dreams are. Tesla may have beaten me to figuring out how to tame a lightning bolt, but the materials to make it happen aren't there yet so I'll dream on, and keep watching those lightning bolts each of which could power New York City for several days... the wife thinks I'm nuts for getting out where I can see them properly. Oh, well.

And, I don't check in as often as I used to. Just the way things go, I guess.

[fredusa]

No, 'Gruff, you don't have any need to "replace" your posts, just wondered why they'd disappeared, 'specially since I directly responded to them, thus making my posts look a bit silly---thought you'd done that on purpose ;) ;D !
Re Oliver---see my PM.

[billy_goat_gruff]

Nah, the assumption on my part is that everyone knows that I'll PM you if there is a real problem. Otherwise, everyone is just being civil in their own unique way... *:)

Besides, you have been one of my best arguing partners. Why would I intentionally do cheap stuff. Think we are about even on wins in those arguments, but mostly they run to draws with hopefully both of us expanding our horizons. We've been around too long, seen too much, thought outside the box too many times to let much faze us, IMO.

Oliver? Think he said he had orders from the front office to lock troublemakers (okay, those who weren't being civil which is the same thing to me.) Apparently, if they learn from it and want to be civil then no biggie about posting here. If they didn't then I'm thinking the lock order is still in effect.

Don't know how much talking to Oliver is involved. There are some that are back posting and could probably tell more if they wanted to. Mostly I think this is supposed to be a hands-on type forum with hobbies and such thrown in (like reading, gun collecting, etc.)

And, the future of energy... (so this one will fit in *;) * :D )

I figure the future of energy will have to include, or mostly be comprised of, distributed sources such as PV, windmills, small hydro, etc. A couple years ago, went to a professional meeting and there are a number of countries that are emphasizing renewables according to the speaker. PV's on commercial buildings, things like that.

Implied but not stated was that there was a paradigm shift where instead of big centralized power stations they are doing the collected small bits of excess power for the system. Could have read between the lines wrong though.

Centralized plants are easy targets in this crazy modern world, again IMO...

[fredusa]

Nah, 'Gruff, we haven't argued---we've discussed with, some disagreements, some pretty heavy subjects! And you think we have come out about even? Nah---I think I'm up about 93 to 7! ;) But---
Yeah, thanks for the info on Oliver---oh, and I was teasing about the "making my posts look silly", you silly!
Now, let's see, this thread was started re: "the future of energy", wasn't it?
Here's my personal take on the whole nine yards:
As consumers we need the energy production.
As freemen (and women) it is in our best interests to produce our energies on a personal basis rather than to rely on the production by either companies or governing bodies. This eliminates the overregulation we currently have, the high, high prices we pay, and the dictatorialism of either a remote, large, conglomerate or a governing body.
The suggested ( beginning of this thread) use of the pie in the sky (yeah, my opinion) of "Zero point", or "vaccum", or interuniversal energy systems would require a HUGE body of money (spelled G*O*V*E*R*N*M*E*N*T) to even get us into (assuming it's even a possibility!)
My little enterprises have ALWAYS been aimed at an easy way for the "little guy" to produce what he needs on site, rather than buying from a remote site.
BTW, I sincerely HOPE that Duffy has seen what has happened to his forum and will keep something of an eye on it in the future. It should NEVER have gotten to the nadir it did, and should never get to that again.

[ffd430]

When they figure out the Zero Point energy thing can some one let me know. Because I want to be the first to step through the Stargate to Atlantis. ;)