HOW ABOUT RUNDOWN ON MISC. FORMS OF ENERGY

[alma]

How about those little windmills in people's yards.
How about bike peddle power. You can generate 12 volts they say.
I had a 12 volt t.v. once and some other 12 volt stuff in a beat up house trailer i bought for y2k.
Had to get rid of it when i came to tenn from md. a few years back.
That would have been fun to play with here.
How about those roof panels painted black with pipes running through to get hot water.
Couldn't a multiple system be set up to feed just dribbles into batteries if necessary.
How about when cars are running long distance back and forth to work each day. Can they generate into two batteries instead of just one.
Bits and pieces of energy to store. That's what i'm asking for info on.
How about some other ideas, like steam etc.
power studies for dummies, 101, sort of thing. love, alma

[DM]

How about when cars are running long distance back and forth to work each day. Can they generate into two batteries instead of just one.


Sure you can, but it isn't free! Newer car alternators aren't anything to brag about, they don't last long enough as it is, let alone adding another batt., or two to charge.

Also, the harder the alt. works, the more gas the car burns...

DM

[braegen]

Looks interesting enough
http://www.windstreampower.com/humanpower/hpgmk3.html

[fredusa]

alma, been trying to do that for years!
What so many don't seem to understand is that we DO NOT create energy! We RELEASE energy from storage. This would be my introduction for you to the energy 101 you asked for.
Fossil fuels? The energy we get from them is naught but stored sunlight---stored in this case over umptillions of years. Solar heat? Such as those black pipes you mentioned. Stored and released on a much quicker time scale. The burning of wood and other biological heat producers? Again, stored sunlight, but stored for a few years or less (That oak tree you are burning has stored such energies for, maybe, 30 or 40 years, that pressed straw brick you are burning has stored the energies you are releasing for just a season).
So, what we are really talking about is storing and releasing energies, eh? Most of us are familiar with the storage of electricity in a battery. It's common, every car we know of uses some of this, home wind and solar electric systems have batteries, etc.
Now, here's another storage battery that most would not think of :
You have a few acres. You live in a rainy area. You have a smallish stream running alongside your property. On the highest hill on your property you install a large stroage tank. You use mom nature to fill that tank with water. This can be a RAM pump, powered by the flowing water of the stream, a solar distiller, a solar powered pump, a grid powered pump, a windmill pump, rain catchment---many, many ways of strorage.
Using something to direct the water downward, back to the stream, but catching some of the gravitational energy of that fall to run a wheel, to turn a generator, etc., and you have a different kind of battery, don't you?
Now you have stored some energy in the tank. gravity will let you extract some of what you have stored, just like the electric in a lead-acid battery. A valve acts as a switch to let you use some of your water batterys energy.
We need to begin to understand this storage/use cycle, for then we can find new ways of both storage and use!
(BTW, the above example is NOT a very efficient method of storage/use, but is still probably AT LEAST as efficient as the fossil fuel usage we are so hooked on---you have to use energy to find the fossil fuels, energy to extract it from the ground, energy to refine it into conveniently useful products, energy to distribute it to its final users, the the best internal combustion power plant only gets around 40% of the available energy into a useful form!)
IMO, it is in the STORAGE medium where we can improve our energy efficiencies---and that is where I am working! Specific questions will not be answered, but general questions will. I'm too close to a large income producer for me and a great system for mankind!

[alma]

Fred, I'm going through some more old clippings and other papers again today, looking especially for good ideas i had not thought of or had forgotten.
i came across many of Sen Gavel's congressional reports from alaska, 1973, that deal with all kinds of potential energies and many of the things you mentioned.
--all kind of stuff, food for thought and it delights me.
thanks for your coments, too. Of course it is all in the storage. I never thought of that either.
Actually, i am a battery filled with solar energy myself, and often wonder when i sit in the sun each day for about 15 imutes for my daily quota of vitamin D, just exactly how i am being charged, and could i do better, stupid as it sounds.
Thanks for the info.
He also tell sometiing about the maufacture of solar cells and when i get finished reading some more of his stuff, i will post it later if i remember.
Maybe you can modify the info and give me a better insite into people possibly making their own from scratch. Why not!
Now about wind power. I found a picture of a camper with a windmill built on top to charge batteries while they drove along. Another quaint ideas.
Maybe it is not really practical in the long run because of the resistance generated by the fan, and maybe is a strain on the car battery and it uses up more energy just running the contraption. I sure don't know.
Your idea sounds great. Wish i knew more about these things. love, alma
modified. that's senator gravel, and he talks about silicon cells, and cadmium sulfate, etc. of the 70s and i'm going to check out some of the authors he spoke of who dealt in this stuff for nasa, as soon as i can.
I'd like to find out what methods are used today.

[braegen]

Elma,

I seen a 12v 6w bicycle dynamo the other day (remember the ones we used to attach to our bikes in the old days for lights). I actually only remember 6v dynamos, but this was 12 volt.

I suppose if one had a garden windmill they may be able to capture something, or a small stream, or..... 6w isn't alot, unless of course one lives on a hill or somthing (imagine 12 hrs with enough breeze to turn it) 72 watts or nearly 5 aH from a bicycle dynamo? Could probably run a light for a few hours or watch the 5" B&W tv for 4 or so hours, which isn't a bad thing.

I really like the thought of a homemade wind generator, would be alot of fun to try to make one, and the results in captured electricity may be suprising.

[alma]

Got a few minutes to use sues internet. Will quote a few things from Sen. Gravel of Alaska, 1971-4 era.
He did all he could to promote all kinds of solar stuff and few would pay attention.
He said back then that the arabs would be begging us to buy their oil if we went misc. solar, and for much less than the subsequent oil wars, which is a little late in the game now i guess because of their nuclear designs.

"The basic solar heating device, the solar collector, has been experimented with since 1909. It is simply a thin rectangular box, covered with glass and bottomed with a black=painted metal sheet that has thin water pipes running through it.
When the sunlight hits the metal, it is absorbed, turning into heat. The glass traps the heat, creating temperatres inside the box that can reach as hgih as 200 degrees . The water in the pipes carries this heat away to radiators, or to underground insulated tanks for storage when the heat is not needed."
Congressional Record, June 19, 1974.

"Animal wastes is another source that cold create "solar power". .A billion tons are produced annually, often discharged into lakes and and streams where it quiclkly fouls the water.
Mass fermentation of wastes into methane could ultimately supply 2-3 % of U.S. gas needs according to the NSF=Nasa study.

Then if you extended the process, and began cultivating such fast growing plants such as algae and water hyacinth, or kelp for fementation into methane, the potential would be to supply ALL our gas needs.

The next step beyond using growing things for solar energy would be to eliminate the growing cycle and
apply solar heat directly to the task of boiling water to make steam.

That would take a devic e to magnify solar heat up to 500 degrees or so to get sufficient pressure to run a turbine."
Many innovative ideas, and then continues:
Re: Solar Cells. These are just afew of the pesky questions that bother solar scientists. Some of them think it would be a lot simpler to manufacture something that has no moving parts that would just sit there in the sunlight and make electricity.
Such a device called a solar cell, was invented in the early 1950s when scientists discovered that if you take certain types of crystals, say a wafer of silicon, and put it into the sunlight, a small charge of electricity is created for a fraction of a second before it degenerates into heat.
The sunlight causes rapid movements among the electrons, charged particles within the silicon atoms. By using special coatings and silver wires to tap the momentary movement of the elctrons, scientists found they could "catch" a supply of usable power from the process.--so many procss, including hand process, it was cost prohibitive but NASA could afford to us this system."

"Then a new process, making the silicon wafers in long strips rather than slicing them off of big bologna shaped crystals, might cut productiom costs by 50 percent."

Mr Lindmeyer was one of main scientists and maybe there are some books by him. Cont later. love, alma

[fredusa]

* *Of course, alma, you know by now that I agree with the assessments of Sen. Gavel.
* * The making of methane (via anaerobic digesters) has been around for many, many years, and has been most developed in India. *Google *"anaerobic digesters" or the like---perhaps even "methane production", etc. * *Basically this is done with an underground holding tank of, usually, concrete with an entry pipe for the introduction of the "fuel"---which is, usually bovine deficate, straw and water in the case of India---and a domes top which can float atop the production methane (you get a couple of other gasses and you MUST be careful and informed before you make such a device), with an exit hole or pipe to claim the gas.
* * BTW, the above also will provide your garden with some excellent biofoods.
* * So, again, mom nature provides a storage medium *(poo-poo! :D), and we need to develops ways to release it for our uses.
* * I happen to love wind power *(BTW, just another form of solar power since it is the heat from the sun that causes the winds to low, eh). * I, personally, am developing what I think of as the "next generation" of wind power collectors, but for now the simple wind turbine (that propeller looking thing on a tower) will do for most of us. *However, wind is not a steady, stable thing, so one needs, still, another storage medium, in this case the standard kind of batteries, and a method to extract the energy from the batteries when needed.
* *Oh, another BTW, the solar cell was actually made WAY before the 1950s! * I don't have the info at my finger tips (as usual when I'm on the computer), but it seems that a black fella, a tachnician, perhaps even a professor, made a solar electric cell back in, around 1907. * 'T'was, as I recall, a disc of mostly copper, but I can't remember much after that, at this time.
* * *Steam energy is actually, also, stored energy. *In liquid water there is, of course, energy. *It's a simple function of the atomic structure of the the water molecule. *Water axpands wildly when it phase changes from a liquid to a vapor, and it is the release of this energy which we can make quite useful in our daily lives. *From making electricity (that's one of the methods that the power companies use, now isn't it?), to heating our homes (the old radiators that have now fallen from favor are proof of this one), to our transportation needs. * *Steam requires heat, doesn't it? *And isn't one of the easiest to harvest energies of the sun that of heat?
* *So, trapping and storing the heat energy of the sun, *harvesting various crops which have absorbed the energies of the sun--perhaps making fireable bricks of the plant(s). * These two methods alone can go a long way toward meetingour energy needs. *However, it is NOT profitably viable for a distributing company (grid) to use such methods to power your house. *It IS, though, quite practical on an individual level, and that's why such methods are so slow in being developed.
* * BTW, the "normal" steam engine is not terribly efficient *(that's be the piston engine powered by steam, such as the old locomotives), and the "normal" steam turbines are far better.
* * Okay, one more observation then I lay off this longwinded post :
* * Even in a very efficient turbine, there are a good deal of losses of the energies inputted. * The "catchment" of a higher percentage of these energies seem, to me, to be the key.

[jajbellsouthnet]

I have a bit of experience with many forms of energy. Windmills, solar panels, solar water heaters, etc. and the one thing I have determined to be an absolute: When it comes to energy, the older you get, the less of it you have!

[idris]

I have a bit of experience with many forms of energy. Windmills, solar panels, solar water heaters, etc. and the one thing I have determined to be an absolute: When it comes to energy, the older you get, the less of it you have!
But, as I have noticed, one gets a little more thoughtful about how and why one uses it: from this, I postulate that most energy gets wasted on useless nonsense. :)
&
Water Pumps Water!
Why use a complex device where a simple one will do?
These two gadgets are water-operated water-pumps: no electricity, no muscle-power!

http://www.lurker.tech.com/chris/eco/pump/tripod

http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip.htm

& for the more complex notions:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/Beard_scalem.html

[mangyhyena]

One thing I heard on Paul Harvey: He spoke of a company that is developing capacitors with hopes they will take the place of batteries. I believe they plan to market capacitors to take the place of AA, AAA, C, D, and laptop/portable DVD batteries.

If I understood it correctly, they increased the surface area of the plates by spraying them with a conductive spray, creating ridges which increase the surface area while keeping the actual plates small.

If this company is successful these capacitors would have a few advantages over batteries. One advantage is the time it takes to charge a capacitor vs a battery. Capacitors charge much more quickly, meaning it can be charged and back in use much quicker than rechargeable batteries. Another advantage is that capacitors could be used, charged, and reused many, many more times than a rechargeable battery.

Now, for the homesteader it could lead to a bank of capacitors rather than batteries. Means the generator would have to be running less time, burning less fuel, to recharge the whole bank. In an electric car it would mean more capacitors could be used to power the vehicle since capacitors weigh much less, extending the range. Also means the vehicle would need less time to recharge before hitting the road again. Maybe one could even install a small generator to use during those times when a one way trip takes the vehicle to the edge of its range.


Anyway, it's just something I heard about. Maybe it will pan out and maybe it will not. Time will tell.

[mangyhyena]

I saw on the news that Honda intends to market a hydrogen vehicle within 2 years.

How is one to fill the vehicle up, you ask. Honda intends to sell you not only the car, but the hydrogen maker as well. Both the car and hydrogen producer will be wrapped up in the same loan. The hydrogen maker would plug into your house current and produce fuel for your car. You would come home, fill up the car with the hydrogen you produced, then take off for work the next day.

Yes, you'll just be diverting the money you spend on gas into the pockets of the utility company. Unless---you live off the grid using an alternative method for power. In that case you would be powering not only your house for free but your vehicle as well. Getting rid of the utility bill AND your gasoline bill each month makes investing in alternative energy something that will pay you back much, much sooner. Now that's worth getting excited about.