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  #1  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:32 PM
Denver Dave Male Denver Dave is offline
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Default Using water to pump water

We have a stream and ditches with flowing water that we would like to use to pump water to a higher storage location to be used for a gravity feed irrigation system.

I've looked at

spiral pumps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY-AQrWOjw4&NR=1

ram pumps
http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/v...read.php?t=574

Waterwheels
http://www.tumklipleri.com/klip/qUMo...l-gearing.html

and now I'm looking at a version of this pump hooked to a waterwheel and am wondering if there are standard commercial, small scale waterwheels available to drive the pump giving a self contained irrigation system.
www.youtube.com/user/karsaj81

= = = = = = = = ==
20 % of all the energy produced in the world is consumed by pumping water (wonder if I believe this)
http://www.youtube.com/user/karsaj81.../0/-gIVOEDB9ws
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  #2  
Old 05-28-2010, 09:29 AM
tomato204 Male tomato204 is offline
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Default water

Welcome Dave. Whether or not you can raise water to a high level using the power of that water depends on the "head" or rise from one end of your stream to the other. Have you measured the head as well as the flow (in gallons per hour)?
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  #3  
Old 05-31-2010, 03:52 PM
Denver Dave Male Denver Dave is offline
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We have several different situations and some do have significant drop. However, the area that I'm researching now does not have very much drop, but does have a fair amount of water in a stream and in two ditches.

The idea is that a flow under waterwheel might turn the axle of a pump which would lift a smaller amount of water to a higher storage tank that would be used for a gravity feed irrigation system.

This is a fairly important item to get this area irrigated adequately and I have ordered to small pumps to test the concept. The dealer indicated the pumps would not be adequate for agricultural use, but other pumps are in development.

My plans are to build a 3 to 4 foot flow under water wheel and use to drive one of the pumps as a scale for what might be possible. Supposedly the pump that I've ordered will work at low rpm, although I'm sure pumping less water.

I may change my opinion when I get into this, but using a waterwheel to turn a pump seems less complicated than a ram pump or spiral pump approach. Of course, it may not turn or turn so slowly as to not pump much water.

Have any others looked into similar approaches?

I'll report back - don't have the pump yet.
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  #4  
Old 05-31-2010, 07:37 PM
keydl keydl is offline
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Default

The description as irrigation flow really leaves only an undershot wheel for power, it will erode the unprotected ditch so a liner is needed with the wheel.

There are several options for the pump, the speed change losses for a centrifugal wolud be high, a roller would not like sediment, a diaphram would tolerate small rocks but not last with a high lift.

Scale makes a difference also - 4foot wide and 2 foot deep or 14 foot wide and 10 foot deep. The amount of water to be pumped, difference in elevation.........

Most ditch riders will want to 'see' the wheel stop and not spill water which will reduce efficency. A washout will not make friends.
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2010, 05:49 PM
str8sh00ter str8sh00ter is offline
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Default RPMs

If RPMs are a major concern you could always gear the waterwheel and the pump and use a larger gear on the wheel than the pump, that would give you an increase in RPMs. Even a 2:1 gearing ratio would help.
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  #6  
Old 06-01-2010, 08:25 PM
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AlchemyAcres AlchemyAcres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Dave View Post
......less complicated than a ram pump.

Have any others looked into similar approaches?


Ram pumps are actually incredible easy to build. I've built dozens of them with off-the-shelf plumbing fittings.

Here's a pic of one of my pumps......




They can be made to work where there's very little drop by use of a long feed and stand pipe.

In a river or large stream with lots of flow where drop is nearly non-existent, I'd use a sling pump.

http://www.riferam.com/river/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sbylXGEFtw


~Martin

Last edited by AlchemyAcres; 06-01-2010 at 08:36 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:41 AM
Denver Dave Male Denver Dave is offline
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Default 1st water test of water pump (water to pump water

1st water test of water pump (water to pump water project)

Specs with the pump:
= = = = = = = = = = =
the directions indicated the pump would do 90 gallons per minute at 200 RPM, but optimal (whatever that means) is 150 RPM. Let's say we have a waterwheel turning at once every 6 seconds - that would be 10 RPM. If the delivery is proportional 90 gallons per minute x 10 / 200 would suggest 4.5 gallons per minute. 4.5 gallons per minute x 60 minutes x 24 hours / day = 6,480 gallons per day, which is within our target prototype goal range. 200 RPM for 90 gallons = .45 gallons per turn (theoretical).

First test small scale protype test:
= = = = = =
Less than ideal conditions

10 gallon tub of source water
5 inch hand crank on the pump
pump not bolted down, hard to hold steady with one hand and crank with the other - there is a bracket to allow bolting down the pump.

50 turns with 5 inch hand crank in 40 seconds to empty 10 gallon tub - hard to turn and to hold the pump steady by hand

50 turns for 10 gallons = 0.2 gallons per turn
40 seconds for 10 gallons = 15 gallons per minute = 21,600 per day (I could not keep up for 24 hours by hand !)

A water wheel of several feet should give a lot more torque than a 5 inch hand crank.

The pump did pump a lot of water, much longer to fill the tub with the garden hose than to empty the tub with the pump. Not a lot of force, but quite a bit of water coming out of the 2 inch pipe.

Tried to pump up a 7 foot vertical 2 inch pipe, but could not hold the pipe vertical and attached to the pump and crank the pump at the same time. With the pipe slanted and up a foot or two and resting on a support, not much difference in the cranking from level.

I was turning at 75 RPM (40 seconds for 50 turns), hard to hand crank slower by hand and overcome resistance, but a several foot diameter wheel size large enough to only give 10 RPM should give more torque.

The pump is only 8 inches in diameter, but is almost 6 inches wide, which is proportionately wider than other pumps of this size that I've seen which may be why it flows quite a bit of water.

= = = = = =

The critical test now seems to be whether a 3 to 4 foot diameter water wheel can turn the pump at 10 RPM. We need a way to attach the 1/2 inch hexagonal pump axle to the water wheel axle. Force of the water (to overcome resistance) and speed of the turn are the factors. Also looking for a used cable spool or other item to make a temporary prototype water wheel.

Will report back. If others are doing similar, please let me know.

Dave
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  #8  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:36 AM
Denver Dave Male Denver Dave is offline
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Default Results of summer 2010 water wheel test

Spring of 2011 is here again and I'm finally getting back to report the results of last summer's test of water to pump water.

With 3 - 2 inch by 4 ft wood lathes, we created two "stars" then combining the stars, we made an six point circle that was surprisingly strong. The lathes were tied together with plastic ties.

Then we repeated the above to make a second star.

A 2 foot by 2 foot thin plywood section was tied to the middle of each star and a hole drilled in the middle of the plywood to allow an axle to be inserted.

A plastic 8 foot by approx 3 foot corrugated roof sheet was cut into 6 pieces to make the fins to connect the stars. Fastening the sheet pieces to the lathes with plastic ties.

The resulting waterwheel which could easily be transported on the floor of a van disassembled to the test location.

Rickety as you might expect, but actually not to bad when tied together.

We mounted the axle of the wheel to the bump and had several people hold the wheel, axle and pump.

The pump would turn, but this configuration, with people power could not turn the wheel fast enough to pump water. The pump was a low RPM pump and worked when cranked by hand, but not with our wheel. Better wheel and perhaps some gearing would be required.

Because the approach failed our people power test, we did not try in the stream.

I still think a stream has tremendous power to be utilized and should be able to compete with a solar approach. Other water to pump water approaches work, but seem to take a huge amount of water flow for the water actually pumped.

The pump approach has promise, but I did not get it to work in a water wheel test. Going back to the manufacturer to see if they have made any progress on the agricultural pumps they said they were developing a year ago.

Any others making progress you care to share?

Dave
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2014, 05:50 PM
KFlippen Male KFlippen is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlchemyAcres View Post
Ram pumps are actually incredible easy to build. I've built dozens of them with off-the-shelf plumbing fittings.

Here's a pic of one of my pumps......




They can be made to work where there's very little drop by use of a long feed and stand pipe.

In a river or large stream with lots of flow where drop is nearly non-existent, I'd use a sling pump.

http://www.riferam.com/river/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sbylXGEFtw


~Martin
I noticed there's not a pressure chamber on your ram pump. Will it work as is or do you have to add one the reason i ask is that i want to pump water from a creek for garden irrigation and have been looking at this style of pump I found this thread searching the internet any help or tips would be appreciated

Kenneth
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  #10  
Old 01-10-2014, 01:32 AM
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DavidOH Male DavidOH is offline
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Thumbs up

I hope Martin comes back to answer your question.

As I understand it, the Air Chamber is not necessary. The pump will still function. The air chamber acts as a buffer to prevent hammering.
There was a lot of details on his build. I'd like to find that again.
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  #11  
Old 08-06-2018, 11:14 PM
Denver Dave Male Denver Dave is offline
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Default Facebook group for water wheel pumps

I've been working on this project for quite a while - time to get more help ! I've setup a public facebook group for water wheel pumps - if interested, please have a look and share your ideas. Thanks
https://www.facebook.com/groups/240458583255303
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