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Go Back   BHM Forum > After Sunset > Philosophy

Philosophy Any non-religious philosophical discussions.

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  #21  
Old 08-22-2010, 10:37 AM
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Of course, the one overarching problem with these kinds of conjectures, and with all the arguments offered from all sides, is that all of it is based on individual and personal interpretations of text that was written millennia ago and revised, purposely and, perhaps, by accident in transcription and translation, an unknown number of times.

As such, absent proof to the contrary, almost anything is possible. There is no way to know correct from incorrect.

Quote:
These folks have a lot to lose, however. If my theory is right, then they have been serving Satan all along, without ever knowing it. God does not forgive such a trespass. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Thus, Satan's victory is near complete. He has the hardest and most pious of believers in his right hand pocket, AND THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IT. They gleefully do his bidding, thinking themselves the Victors in Christ.
If the God of the New Testament is a construction of Satan, then it is possible, even likely, that Christ himself was either Satan or one of his minions. Would God permit such a thing to take place? If so, to what end? He would be allowing a deception that could not reasonably be detected by the creatures he created. He would be purposely arranging for their failure.

To my mind, that is the weak spot in this conjecture. We'd have to assume an omnipotent and omniscient God who is willing to go to the trouble of creating a universe to contain sentient beings just so he could arrange to trick mankind into failure. Possible? Sure. Probable? Who knows, but I'd guess the probability of no supreme being to be significantly higher than one that would behave so.

I find it far easier to imagine a God who would create the universe and then sit back to see what happens. It would go a long way toward explaining the world around us.


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  #22  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:23 PM
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Default Interesting



<HERESY ALERT!!!>

If your faith in what you THINK you know is easily shaken, do not read further.

<HERESY ALERT!!!>


This may be a hard truth for the average reader from a Judeo-Christian background or upbringing to objectively examine.. There is so much lifelong dogma, faith, tradition, belief, self-worth and spirituality tied up in it, that many people will fight to remain ignorant, and obstinately blind themselves to this possibility.

For them, I imagine it must be kind of like finding out that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are all fake, and then finding out that you were adopted, (and that your "parents" never loved you anway) ALL ON THE SAME DAY! (only a thousand times worse)


But regardless of how shocking or profane this may seem to you personally, it's something that deserves some serious scrutiny nonetheless. If this is true, the implications are shattering, and everything we think we know is wrong.

The basic thesis is thus: Lucifer was the head angel of God, but coveted God's power and authority, and rebelled against Him. (Ezekiel 28:14-16)

If you read Isaiah 14:1-11 and 14:12. It tells you exactly who/what the "morning star" is. A parable about the king of Babylonia. Your reference to lucifer comes from a mistranslation in the Christian Vulgate Bible from the Hebrew. "Morning star" was mistranslated as "Lucifer." Satan means adversary or opposition. It is one perspective that Satan was a created angel made to be the "opposition" to people in order to strengthen them in their practice of free will and making righteous choices. Here is a parable: Your son comes to you and declares that his soccer team won the game. He describes how he personally shot the winning goal and how well the team performed together. You then ask him who he played and he looks at you puzzeled. Played? We had no opponent. Where there is no opposition, there is not struggle, there is no reward for a job well done.

He (along with one third of the Angelic host who rebelled with him) was defeated and cast down to the Earth (Isaiah 14:12) See above. Parable for King of babylon.

At this point, burning with rage and shame, but filled with an even greater lust for the power that was denied him, Lucifer decided to set himself up AS] God.

I submit to you that the Abrahamic "god" of the Old Testament is none other than Lucifer himself.
I don't see it.
Think about it. The god of the Old Testament was vengeful, and full of wrath. He demanded sacrifice, strict allegience, and blind obedience to his whims just to prove his power to mortal men. (Abraham....Exodus...The book of Job, anyone?)
The prophets of this "god of the Old Testament" did not chastise the people for failure to keep strict religious laws, but instead admonished the people for not performing justice for the down trodden, the stranger, the orphan and the widow. They were chastised for a failure to show kindness and mercy, too often the prophets spoke to the people, "What is it that the Lord your God requires of you, but to act justly and walk humbly". It is a popular, although incorrect, assumption that this "Old Testament God" is as you describe, but it can only be asserted if one focuses on only parts of the actual scriptures and not on their entire essence. The entire book of Deuteronomy reasserts that the commandments are connected to love and to service and a higher calling, ultimately. They were meant to inspire toward righteous behaviors, not self-righteous attitudes.

There was none of that peacenick stuff from the New Testament, no 'turn the other cheek', or 'love thy neighbor'.... It was all about "An eye for an eye" (Deuteronomy 19:21) and stoning the sinners. (Leviticus 20:13)
Love thy neighbor comes straight from the Old Testament from the book of Leviticus 19:18. It was Jesus repeating it in the New Testament. He didn't originate it. An "eye for an eye" was never applied as it's most commonly interpreted by Christians and Muslims by the people with whom the book originated. It traditionally refers to a monetary compensation. You are totally correct that "turn the other cheek" isn't an ethic from the OT.

Why would Satan go to the trouble? Well, he's not called the Father of Lies just because it sounds cool. In fact, the whole scheme fits his 'Modus Operandi" perfectly. In his guise as "The Bringer of Light", Lucifer could appear very majestic. He was, after all, God's head angel and right hand man. Both Jesus and Satan are referred to as the bright and morning star according to many Christian commentaries. I am not making implications and have no idea what this does imply, but it is a fact.

By usurping God's place among men, Satan was able to realize his godly ambitions here on earth, if not in Heaven. Namely, to be worshipped and glorified and held on high by men; God's favorite and most dear creation. This is possibly the ultimate jab in the eye to his victor; a desperate and spiteful move by a defeated enemy motivated only by jealous rage and hate. This was perhaps his foulest deed, to corrupt the joyful news of God's love with his lies and distortions and perversions.

To men, Lucifer could be as a god. This was the thing he most desired.

And Satan was a fearful god, as the Old Testament easily recounts, with it's many stories of a wrathful heavenly patriarch that dealt closely in the affairs of men, enriching some, smiting others, and above all demanding worship, glory, and unwavering allegiance.
Satan wasn't the only powerful "angel" that functions in the OT. Also, he was not "all powerful" and enjoyed restrictions and permissions like any other angel and created thing.
...

Now this is where it gets interesting.

God thought this situation was intolerable, so He personally sent His only Son down to earth to right the ancient wrong spread by the lies of Satan; To correct once and for all the iniquity and confusion sown by the Master of Deceit, and spread the good news of the TRUE gospel. That of love, forgiveness and salvation. Jesus embraced the sinner, taught tolerance and mercy, and showed all of those who would listen that his Father was a kind and loving God who would accept even the most wretched of sinners into his heavenly bosom, if only they renounced the lies of Satan, and accepted the Lord's divine truth and accepted Him as their personal savior.
Jesus' teachings normally echoed the same message as the prophets from the OT. The ideas of forgiveness and mercy were repeated many many times through the OT. Even with the first story of murder, we see the message begins that righteousness depends on our choices. The choice was given to Adam regarding the tree and then as Cain contemplated murder, God reminded him that he sin was croutching at his door but that he had the power to rule over it and to choose life. The OT is full of refrences to personal choice (choose this day who you will serve, choose life...) and it's connection to righteous living. There isn't an all powerful equal to God.
This was a markedly different teaching than that of the Old Testament.
Hence, it is called The New Testament.
I disagree.

You know, as opposed to the older one it was replacing. Jesus' blood sacrifice and the miracle of His subsequent ressurection and ascention was a symbolic abolishment of the Old Testament, proof that the new gospel was via The One True God. God felt that it was important enough to personally come down amongst men and refute the lies of Satan by sacrificing his only son. (John 3:16)

But, as always, Satan corrupts. By overtaking the Papacy and gaining control of the early church doctrine, (Council of Nicea, King James edition, etc) he was able to control and distort the message, edit the documents, and exert his influence to the point where the two gospels have been irrevocably bound together, as well as managing to fool most of the world's "christians" into believing a pack of blatant lies, disinformation, and propaganda about his own role and place within the scriptures.

In summation, almost everything you know is wrong, and the old "God", pre New Testament, is actually The Devil. Based on the words of the prophets, the call for repentance over sacrifice and the stress on personal choice, justice, and mercy all throughout the OT, I would disagree with you on your assumptions.

...
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  #23  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
EVERYONE:

I caution all who care to take part in this thread to remain as civil as those who have so far participated.

flatblack has put forth an intellectually interesting theory that interprets biblical text from a different perspective. Perhaps it should have been posted in the Philosophy board, but it's here now.

This theory is not a challenge to anyone's faith. Please treat it as an intellectual exercise.

All are welcome to offer opinions and/or point out inconsistencies and/or offer alternate theories.

But in all cases, keep the discussion on topic. Personal comments, attacks, and/or other incivility is not welcome and will not be tolerated.


Thank you.


Oliver
There`s nothing intellectual in it. Any Bible student worth his salt could knock him down with the simple truth that is in Scripture. He`s just as deluded as most of whom he refers to in his opening delusional diatribe, as judeo-christians. Just to take an "intellectual" jab at his allusion to lucifer- there is only one reference to lucifer in the Bible. Isaiah 14 refers to lucifer, in the Authorized translation. Lucifer is a word that is used to translate a reference to the king of Babylon, describing him as the morning star. Even in those days, morning star refers to the planet Venus. When Venus appears in the western sky in the early morning, it is washed away and disappears when the "sun" comes over the horizon, referring to the Son of God. It has nothing to do with the devil or, satan.
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubcadet View Post
There`s nothing intellectual in it. Any Bible student worth his salt could knock him down with the simple truth that is in Scripture. He`s just as deluded as most of whom he refers to in his opening delusional diatribe, as judeo-christians. Just to take an "intellectual" jab at his allusion to lucifer- there is only one reference to lucifer in the Bible. Isaiah 14 refers to lucifer, in the Authorized translation. Lucifer is a word that is used to translate a reference to the king of Babylon, describing him as the morning star. Even in those days, morning star refers to the planet Venus. When Venus appears in the western sky in the early morning, it is washed away and disappears when the "sun" comes over the horizon, referring to the Son of God. It has nothing to do with the devil or, satan.

You made the same point as I did in regards to who the bright and morning star refers to in the Old Testament, that being the king of babylon.
Revelation 22:16 is a reference where Jesus refers to himself as "The Bright and Morning Star".

Hence my statement that both lucifer and Jesus are referred to as "the bright and morning star".

I'm not sure " He`s just as deluded as most of whom he refers to..., as judeo-christians" is a necessary attack on people he may have been referring to. I don't think it's possible for you to know how many people who identify as "Judeo-Christians" are knowldegable or deluded. And I'm not sure why the insult was necessary. You can't just address the topic at hand or stay silent?

Some people might call rabid, antisemtic, hate filled, white supremicists, deluded also. I guess it just depends on your perspective.
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:29 PM
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The Old Testament “God” was/is Jesus Christ… Yahweh/Yahshua..
The Abrahamic Covenant runs from Genesis to Revelation.
The only thing that was done away with at Christ’s crucifixion was the “Old Covenant under the Law” Gal 3:23-29 …. II Cor 3:6-18 … I Cor 7:16-24
The Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Micah) carries throughout the entire New Testament … Luke 1:68-80 … Hebrews 8:7-13 (just to point out a few references)
There is a reason Paul admonished Timothy to “study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth”
There is nothing philosophical about it. Reason and logic do not work with Yahweh’s Holy Scriptures. And if one knows the Scriptures, to whom they are written, and how to rightly divide there aren’t any contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.
I Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen
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Last edited by kammisue; 04-12-2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: let out a word
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:39 AM
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LottiDa, I didn`t insult anybody. You are the one who insults, referring to antisemites and white supremists. I call that extreme hate. Prejudice. Most in judeochristianty will fry. That, from the word of God, Jesus. Matt 7:21-23- " Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.“ A remnant will be saved. An extreme minority. I am not a white supremist, but a white minorist.
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  #27  
Old 04-13-2012, 03:50 AM
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I love it when people refer to themselves as white this or white that. If you look at your skin tone were all just various shades of brown. But with that said, CubCadet, sometimes you do come across as a skin head. or a white minorist. Just what is a white minorist anyhow?
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:35 PM
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It strikes me as rather strange that when someone who attacks heresy with truth, he himself gets attacked. Especially when he gets called things that are merely media buzz words and specious catch phrases designed to get the people to react a certain way. Jesus Christ said that those who live His way will be persecuted. So, I should thank you all because you attack me instead of the ignorant unbeliever. When a sane person finds himself in an insane asylum and gets all sorts of strange looks from those in there and someone shouts out, "You are crazy" , he should be grateful, though he feels kind of isolated and left out of things. Frankly, I have met some very intelligent, clean cut, sober, well dressed, polite skins and white nationalists and I can say, they conduct themselves with more decency and high morality than most Christians do. They are very devoted to their cause and aren`t afraid to let their particular light shine. Jesus said that it is better to be hot or cold. He vomits out of His body those pucilanimous, do-nothing, lukewarm Christians.
So, thanks for the labels. I don`t deserve your attention, but I feel that I am getting heard by some people with a spark of truth in them.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:52 AM
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Well that pretty well explains everything in a nut shell.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cubcadet View Post
LottiDa, I didn`t insult anybody. You are the one who insults, referring to antisemites and white supremists. I call that extreme hate. Prejudice. Most in judeochristianty will fry. That, from the word of God, Jesus. Matt 7:21-23- " Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.“ A remnant will be saved. An extreme minority. I am not a white supremist, but a white minorist.
Cubcadet you said, " He`s just as deluded as most of whom he refers to in his opening delusional diatribe, as judeo-christians." This is what I was referring to as an insult. I don't think you have the ability to determine that the entire group he is referring to as Judeo-Christians is "delusional".

The lower-case J and C in Judeo and Christains is usually a tactic used by anti-semites to undermine others.

In any event, I didn't call anyone an anti-semite or a white supremicist. Please, go back and read what I said.

Happy Sunday.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubcadet View Post
It strikes me as rather strange that when someone who attacks heresy with truth, he himself gets attacked. Especially when he gets called things that are merely media buzz words and specious catch phrases designed to get the people to react a certain way. Jesus Christ said that those who live His way will be persecuted. So, I should thank you all because you attack me instead of the ignorant unbeliever.
Someone disagreeing with you doesn't qualify as persecution.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:59 AM
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Well I don't Know Much, But I do think it would have made a good movie to watch.
I kinda like Sci-Fi and all the 2012 doomsday stuff, I only know one scripture.. My Father that is in Heaven Hollow be thy name, Thy kingdom come Your will be done an thats all I need.

He restores my soul "good deal"
He prepares a table for me "sweet"

and last but not least' "As I walk through the Shadow of the valley of Death I will Fear no Evil"

I don't like all the different versions of the bible but who am I to Say, You'll have to ask Jesus one day about all that stuff anyway.. Love, Love and continue to Love God is all in to The Love Business andThe Holy Ghost will testify to that.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2012, 09:56 AM
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even when moral decay runs rampant the immoral personally and privately understand their failure - not to suggest they actually consider changing their actions but that they realize such change would be appropriate and a good thing for society at large -
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  #34  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:59 PM
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We need to keep in mind who words, sentences and ideas change with translation. We also need to keep in mind the intent of what was written at that time.
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  #35  
Old 02-01-2013, 11:29 PM
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The old Testament was actually a foreshadow of things to come, like paving the way for Christ and History thrown in for good measure. The new Testament is the fulfillment of the old Testament, Both very important works that fit together perfectly. Even though there may have been some translation problems the big picture is still very clear. And the word of God has withstood the test of time. Man has not even been able to screw it up to much.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offgridbob View Post
The old Testament was actually a foreshadow of things to come, like paving the way for Christ and History thrown in for good measure. The new Testament is the fulfillment of the old Testament, Both very important works that fit together perfectly. Even though there may have been some translation problems the big picture is still very clear. And the word of God has withstood the test of time. Man has not even been able to screw it up to much.
OGB
I have often thought about the prophets old----most modern criers of the truth are but shadows on tv screens.

They could not would not endure the old testament days and ways.

The Word of great God Jehovah--stands againest the ravages of sooth-saying--demi-gods.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:02 PM
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To answer the original question of who is the God of the old Testament. He is the same God of the new Testament. And he is a good friend of mine. I've known him now for about 43 years. and He has never let my down. Has always loved me as I do Him. He has saved my life a number of times.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:16 PM
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Flatblack your question is not all that unique. Many people have the mistaken idea that Satan wanders about without any restrictions. In the book of Job we find that Satan is restrained by God's hedges. These prevent him from having free reign in all circumstances. God is all powerful, all knowing, and all present. Nothing ever takes him by surprise. You are right Satan works very hard to deceive man in all he does. God on the other hand isn't deceived by him at all.
If you still want to stick with your premise that Satan is the god of the OT then go ahead. Then nothing can be trusted, science, history, all philosophy. Nothing can be trusted. Because Satan the MASTER deceiver is in control.
To the administrator, your idea that God started it all and sat back and watched to see what would happen is a bit flawed as well. Like Ben Franklin stated "God deals in the affairs of men".
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:00 PM
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This is an extremely interesting discussion. It could explain why there is no one true religion, no one true holy book. Humans do like to point fingers at other humans and declare them lost because they worship in a different way.

Perhaps we need to seek God in our hearts. We are his creation, his children. Why do we need a priest/preacher/whatever to tell us what God wants? Why can't we just ask, then shut up and listen for the answer?
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  #40  
Old 09-08-2014, 04:31 PM
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Please don't tell me Santa is a fake !!!
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