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  #41  
Old 11-28-2012, 05:47 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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some would differ with you but while here below are a few that support a return to a gold standard FOR THE GOVERNMENT, there are just as many if not more who think it is a bad idea...

HOWEVER.. I am saying for us the people, for NOW, gold and silver will retain purchasing power that the US dollar will not... but over time... farm land, silver, gold... collectables... probably ammo... there are many things that will retain value... I am not sure that the gold standard is the answer... what I am PRETTY SURE of though is the unfettered spending of money the government doesnt have and the continued creating of money by the FED out of thin air CANNOT go on forever... and it seems to me that nobody in Washington is addressing the major issues.

**************************************************

Advocates of the gold standard should not be deterred by the three reasons given by critics who believe a gold standard could not work: that there isn’t enough gold to serve the needs of the world, with its increasing population and its expanding production and trade; that gold would be an unstable money; and that a gold standard would be expensive.
In the first place, there is no shortage of gold. The size of the world’s population, and the extent of production and trade are immaterial; any amount of money will always serve all society’s needs.[1] Actually, people don’t care about the number of dollars, francs, marks, pesos, or yen, they have in their wallets or bank accounts; what is important to them is purchasing power. And if prices are free and flexible, the available quantity of money, whatever that may be, will be spread around among would-be buyers and sellers who bid and compete with one another until all the goods and services being offered at any one time find buyers. In this way, the available quantity of money would adjust to provide the purchasing power needed to purchase all available goods and services at the prevailing competitive market prices.
In the second place, gold would be a much more stable money than most paper currencies. The purchasing power of government- or bank-issued paper currency may fluctuate wildly, as the quantity is expanded or contracted in response to the “needs” of business and/or political pressures, causing prices to rise or fall sharply. Under a gold standard, there would be some slight cash-induced price increases when the quantity of gold used as money rose, as more gold was mined, refined, and processed; and there would be some slight cash-induced price declines as the quantity of gold used as money fell, when gold was withdrawn from the market to be devoted to industry, dentistry, or jewelry. However, under a gold standard, price changes due to such shifts in the quantity of money would be relatively minor and easy to anticipate, and the purchasing power per unit of gold would be more stable than under an unpredictable paper currency standard.
In the third place, although it would cost more to introduce gold into circulation than a paper currency that requires no backing, in the long run a gold standard is not at all expensive as compared to paper. Again and again throughout history, paper moneys have proven to be extremely wasteful and expensive; they have distorted economic calculation, destroyed people’s savings, and wiped out their investments. Yale economist William Graham Sumner (1840-1910), writing long before the world had experienced the disastrous inflations of this century, estimated that “our attempts to win [cheap money] have all failed, and they have cost us, in each generation, more than a purely specie currency would have cost, if each generation had had to buy it anew.”[2]
Once it is agreed that the introduction of a market gold money standard is the goal, here are the steps to take:
First: All inflation must be stopped as of a certain date. That means calling a halt also to all expansion of credit through the Federal Reserve and the commercial banks.
Second: Permit gold to be actively bought, sold, traded, imported, exported. To prevent the U.S. government from exerting undue influence, it should stay out of the market for the time being.
Third: Oscillations in the price of gold would diminish in time and the “price” would tend to stabilize. At that point a new dollar-to-gold ratio could be established and a new legal parity decreed. No one can know what the new dollar-to-gold ratio would be. However, it is likely that it would stabilize a little above the then-current world price of gold, whatever that might be.[3]

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detai...gold-standard/


Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detai...#ixzz2DY1HYLkW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNdsOWB5YlM

Dennis G
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2012, 06:20 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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Spoken like a true Gold Bug! <G>

Think about it, though. Throughout all of history, the amount of gold mined would just barely fill an olympic sized swimming pool. And while gold is still being mined, all the "easy" gold is already in vaults throughout the world. The newly mined gold can't possibly keep up with even moderate economic growth, and that fact alone would prevent any emerging nation from growing. The only solution would be for the purchasing value of each gram of gold to increase to keep up with worldwide economies. IOW, inflation.

Either that, or those who now are "haves," would stay that way, and the "have nots" would never have a chance to improve their condition -- unless the latter forcibly take from the former.

I really didn't intend to get into a deep discussion about gold though, i merely intended to get some thinking about what comes next.
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:46 PM
J R Adams J R Adams is online now
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Grumble
The fallacy I see in your theory is the assumption there will be economic growth. I tend to believe there will be a tremendous reduction in the economy world wide if the dollar collapses. If the governments holding the gold will mint it and put it in circulation a gold standard could be a new beginning. You are right that those who have gold will have and all others will be have-nots, they will be scrounging for survival. A gut feel.

As for the forceful taking from the haves, I think most of use here consider ourselves haves and are prepared and willing to defend what we have.

JMO

Last edited by J R Adams; 11-28-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:51 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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"You are right that those who have gold will have and all others will be have-nots, they will be scrounging for survival."

Isn't that what starts major revolutions?
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:58 PM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
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I often how much economic growth has actually occured over the last 50 years or so.

We measure it all by the dollar, and we've been inflating the dollar for decades.

Maybe there's been no growth at all - it's just inflation masquerading as growth.
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:52 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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Default a neat video on the debt

I had seen this video a few months ago...

on the debt...

http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

Hope you all see this as interesting as well...

Dennis G
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  #47  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 AM
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Dennis G
Thank you for some serious explanantions of our financial future.
Well planned out and explained.

Respectfully
Txanne
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  #48  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:38 PM
whitehairedidiot Female whitehairedidiot is offline
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Well, there's this. I'm just tossing it into the ring... because it's admittedly a wacky idea and I don't automatically "believe" in all the ideas that pass through my own brain. You all be the judge.

The whole concept of "money", "currency", "economic systems" etc. is something that a bunch of people have "made up" over history. We all agreed, that some things have intrinsic value - value in and of themselves - like food, the ability to get food (weapons or baskets), shelter, medicine, etc. We all agreed to setting an arbitrary value on a specific amount of currency -- it could be abalone, gold or the "dollar". What value would gold have to a neanderthal man? He couldn't eat it, but he might think it was pretty. A nugget might work in a slingshot... would another cavemen think it had value?

Sometimes, scarcity of an item increases it's value when it's an item that is necessary for life - food, water, shelter. When an item like that is plentiful and easy to obtain, the value drops. Like air - so far we don't really have an explicit "air" tax... but the EPA is trying to indirectly create one.

Taxes are another artificial, arbitrary concept. This is the modern version of feudalism: the peasants grew food and built villages and cathedrals for the local lord, the royal clingers-on and the king... and most of that was not theirs. They were even prohibited from hunting the "King's deer". Peasants didn't have what the US invented: upward mobility. Most people were "have nots".

But eventually, the peasants created so much product that a new class of people emerged - in between the lords and peasants - that were seen as being more "independent" and having more intentional freedom of action than the peasant, but still beholden to the lords. That would be the merchant class, who began trading - in the name of the lord or the king - the production of the peasants to other geographical areas for items that couldn't be or weren't produced (scarcity) in their own neighborhood. (IIRC, this societal development usually is the indicator of the end of the "dark ages".)

Tradesmen - the blacksmiths, potters, weavers, coopers, masons - then began to develop and gain some status of their own. The product of their minds and hands had value - the merchants bought and sold this - sometimes in exchange for other products... sometimes in exchange for gold and silver. There were even tradesmen and merchants whose specialty was in gold and silver... precious gems, rare spices, silks...

My point being - that I'm starting to think that all this "money" and the overly-complex financial system - isn't all that important in the biggest "picture" I can imagine. It's been a fiction all along - something that only works when everyone can agree or negotiate on what "value" is assigned to something, even the currency itself. Inflation - is almost like scarcity - in that it affects the arbitrary value of something in terms of whatever currency you're using. Use a different currency... and the formula changes.

Let's pretend there is a global contraction of the financial system of catastrophic proportions. No one is going to assign much value to currency measured in 1s and 0s. All of that is what we techies used to call "vaporware". You can have $1 million invested today -- and when that collapse hits -- oops, so sorry, no one agrees anymore that there was value that belonged to you. There's not enough coined currency (and you won't accept paper) to "make good" on the value you thought you had in the "before" days... even at the future-current value placed on that currency term, the dollar. Not when a lot of us - with retirement accounts, IRAs, 401ks, trusts and other kinds of investments - are trying to convert to "liquid assets". (Might be time to rethink the meaning of the term: liquid assets.)

The hard paper currency itself is going to lose value drastically; it's highest value might be as a fire starter. Coinage might remain functional - it is, after all - what we've all known and inventing something new -- and being able to negotiate or agree with someone else about it's value -- is still going to be a delicate process.

What my little imagination exercise leads to: is that he or she who can lets say -- make paper -- make cloth -- bake bread -- make nails or boards -- or build a woodstove... is going to be the wealthiest of the "new order haves". If you have a skill that is needed to start over and survive without all the usual conventional mercantile society we're accustomed to... you are going to be an important person. Soldiers - both ex and active - will also be important for security. The "Makers" of this new world are going become "essential personnel". The "dependents" - may well have something else to offer - even the very elderly - that is useful to communities. Those that want to learn, will be taught. Those that don't -- well, I don't see much future for them.

In that exercise, I see the necessity of taking stock (again) of the various skills I have and prepping the supplies to be able start making again. If I have paper and a press and ink... I can continue to "pontificate" and spread ideas and information around... LOL (maybe not one of the upsides of this kind of collapse... it's just an example.) If I was a reloader... I could stock up on those supplies. If I was pretty good with a sewing machine - I'd be stocking fabric to the ceiling of different kinds. Rug braiding from fabric scraps, tabletop looms, knitting and crochet, sheet metal work... tool/die making... even: electricians, plumbers, carpenters...

The value of those skills is NOT going anywhere. Even, in the face of what I consider to be very plausible... what JR said: a serious severe contraction of the global economy. Our "trade agreements" and jobs lost to overseas will go up in smoke as fast as digital investments. Trade will be local, regional at best. For awhile... until the people with skills go to work with a purpose.

I do believe that if the financial system collapses that far -- so will the people's collective expectations of government. That fiction: that government can micromanage down into the personal, minute details of individuals lives will finally be inescapably laughable to even the most dependent; most brainwashed. And government, will also contract -- though not of it's free will. Mother natures laws (arithmetic and physics) will come to bear on them and it's not nice to PO mother nature!! LOL.

People will ignore the increasingly desperate federal attempts to keep on doing what it's been doing. States, localities, will decide for themselves whether to participate in foolish, irresponsible enabling of a government that can't control itself and therefore is in no moral position to tell others what to do. This resistance, will for the most part be subtle, perhaps using legalities to take a stand - as is already going on - first. I would expect that everyone will drag their feet, consider deeply (or just react out of anger in some cases), before going beyond that line in the sand.

And it won't be happening, just in the US. It will affect everyone in their respective countries around the world. Our communications - I'm betting - will be reserved for only the most important things and limited to the nearest communities and most average folk won't have any clue what's happening in Iceland, Israel, or Zimbabwe.

Anyway... just a wacky idea based on another wacky idea... that money/financial systems/economics - as we know it - isn't something like gravity... humans made it up; invented it... and just because we all agree to believe in it... well, that doesn't mean it really absolutely has that much value. It's all monopoly money, in reality.
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  #49  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:34 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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interesting post ....

But there are many examples of what happens when the money is no longer accepted

Barter comes into play... in Germany what people used to exchange goods was Pound Sterling notes or US Dollar notes...because they were stable because at that time they were all based on gold - which governments could not just print up...

Gold has retained its value over the centuries because it is relatively scarce, because there is intrinsic value cause it requires labor and capital effort to get it out and refine it and mint it...and also because it is divisible (really one ounce of gold is exactly 1/10th value of TEN ounces of gold... cannot say that about diamonds or cows.

Anyway, imagine that the trucks have quit running, all the government people have walked away from their jobs because US Dollar notes are not worth anything, cops have quit and have hired out to neighborhoods or to rich people who have access or stocks of food and water...

It will be the communities that survive made up of farmers who can grow and raise food, then people who can service those farmers (mechanics who can keep the tractors running, electricians who know about solar and batteries, vets who have a stockpile of drugs and can help deal with animal issues, butchers who have freezers and coolers...etc)and then the other service folks like dentists and doctors...

At some point a market will happen... I thought "THE SURVIVORS" book laid out what might happen pretty well.

Dennis G
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  #50  
Old 11-29-2012, 04:06 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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This is a great conversation!

According to what I've seen, 47% of Americans are dependent on the gov't for their survival. We all know that number includes a bunch of folks who COULD but DON'T support themselves. If things happen as previous posts have indicated (which I think is VERY possible, maybe even likely), assume that about half of those 47% realize they have to work or starve, leaving the other fourth of the population (the half that can't or won't support themselves) to die or turn to crime.

Consider, for example, if the major gangs, which are already pretty well organized, join forces, not necessarily into a single unit, but with coordinated activities, like American Indians in the 18th and 19th centuries. Imagine also, that the Mexican Cartels see an opportunity, and either join the criminal alliance, or worse, oppose it. Either way, there will be carnage for the average law-abiding person, until they can form their own opposition forces to defend themselves and their property.

The imagination boggles at how the world COULD look after a major global economic collapse.

And, you can't discount the certainty that some really-really smart people in Washington have plans for all of this. They don't see the government itself going away, and have designated people and places to run things. What and how they plan to govern, is Tippy-Top Super Secret. Your guess is as good as mine.
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  #51  
Old 11-29-2012, 04:47 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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Of course, the GOVT system is already set up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_W...rations_Center

You know they just recently initiated FEMA work force... youngsters mostly.

I believe there are twenty five rather large centers already in existance....



Again, it will be small communities that will survive...

Also, ask yourself...

you have a farm, you have a veggie garden and ten cows and ten pigs ...and 40 chickens...

The FEMA guy shows up at your gate/door....

Along the road adjacent to your property is a platoon of Marines or equivalent in armored personnel carriers (or maybe even a tank?) and the FEMA guy shows you a paper that says your area is under martial law and right now they have set up a refugee center in (NAME A CLOSE BY CITY) and we are hereby confiscating your cows and pigs and chickens for food.

While we cannot obviously FORCE you to leave your property, we encourage you to come with us to the FEMA refugee center where we can easily take care of you and your family - we have food, we have medical care - we can take care of you.

Well, kiss your livestock good bye... you and your shotguns and brothers and sons cannot stand up to a platoon of marines... especially if there is a tank involved...

NOW what do you do?

You best have a well hidden and kept secret stash of water and food or else you are just like the rest of the folks who left the cities and went to the FEMA camps voluntarily because you were hungry.

IT HAPPENS... there were many people who did not want to evacuate during Katrina and other storms/floods... some showed the POLICE they had stocks of food, stocks of kerosene and water...yet were forced to leave their property...

I hope it never gets that bad...but I am preparing for the worse then hoping and praying it never gets that bad.

Read AFTERSHOCK...

it is an eye-opener of what could be.

Dennis G
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  #52  
Old 11-29-2012, 05:24 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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Which "Aftershock?" Robert Reich or Weidmier? I won't do Reich the dignity of even reading his synopsis of the book. Or maybe some of the novels with the word in the title?
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  #53  
Old 11-29-2012, 05:30 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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What to do against a superior armed force is pretty much up to the individual. Just as it has been throughout history. You never really know until you're the one standing there trying to shoot down a Cobra Helicopter with a slingshot.
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  #54  
Old 11-29-2012, 07:55 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumble View Post
Which "Aftershock?" Robert Reich or Weidmier? I won't do Reich the dignity of even reading his synopsis of the book. Or maybe some of the novels with the word in the title?
Reich is a dick... and an idiot...

THIS one

http://www.amazon.com/Aftershock-Pro...rds=aftershock

Dennis G
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  #55  
Old 11-29-2012, 08:57 PM
whitehairedidiot Female whitehairedidiot is offline
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Well, I see we all have about the same opinion of Dr. Reich... hahahaha!

Quote:
Imagine also, that the Mexican Cartels see an opportunity, and either join the criminal alliance, or worse, oppose it. Either way, there will be carnage for the average law-abiding person, until they can form their own opposition forces to defend themselves and their property.
So, alternate ending time... Dennis' platoon of marines notwithstanding, it's only one possible future. It's certainly possible -- and there's a good probability that this will be tried, in some places at least.

So, what if the marines are more concerned about their families... their homes? And what if those communities had their own Tippy-Top Super Secret Plan that was in place before SHTF? If the gov't is so financially "embarrassed" as we suspect could happen, given the numbers... and they can't pay Ms. Napolitano and her subordinates anymore... and there's no pension left for active military... and no paycheck either... and someone pulls the plug on the broadcasters... and the lights go out, too...

I don't see a nationally coordinated effort coming from the gov't to keep order. They can't even pass a budget, people... they are dysfunctional, and I mean in the agencies... forget the politicians for now. The bureaucratic flunkies are political appointees... and most don't need congressional approval to pull down 6 figures. If they're not paid - DC is going to be like rats diving out of a sinking ship.

I have seen comments, in places, by current LEOs who indicate that they will still enforce the "spirit of the law"... in their communities. I imagine a lot of former military will also participate in security -- because it's going to be really hard to hold the government together if there are no big paychecks, no retirement, no security.

I've lived a long time on some of the cartel's favorite distribution routes, Grumble. I've been hearing some things out of LE and elsewhere, about co-opting some of the more organized gangs... but it's all rumors at this point. I don't go looking for more stuff to worry about. I've heard enough to be aware and understand just how close the threat CAN be, right this moment. In a SHTF situation... it will be a problem and it will be dealt with more effectively in a local scenario, I think.

(OH... and my hubby's father worked in the non-public part of Mt. Weather. I applied for a job there once, in the 90s... and yes, they still have armed guards there. Hubs then explained to me why that was. Midwesterners just didn't know these things. He grew up with it in his backyard.)
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  #56  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:25 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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Default In Argentina

when things went bad, the cops still stayed on... the government provided a store where they could buy stuff (like food and such) at a very steeply discounted price or for DOLLARS...

one of the industries that popped up was MINI KIDNAPPING

people would grab a business owner or store owner and kidnap him at gun point, then call his wife and say we have your husband, we need 400 dollars...

of course they had 400 bucks, so the guy would be released on a street corner after they got the money...

Nobody got hurt, nobody died.

So now the guy reports it to the cops (the few still working for the govt) and the cop makes a report and it gets filed

The cops (rightfully) focus on murders and rapes and other violent crimes.. hey..it was 400 bucks so who cares...

The bad guys learned quickly that nobody really goes after them... because ... well nobody got hurt and the money is not that much...

Personally I hope we just see inflation to the tune of 15 or 20 percent... our country and the economy can deal with that - we did it before I know some of us here remember 21 percent mortgages...

but if hyperinflation hits, it will be bad especially for the poor folks they will become very desperate... or perhaps voluntarily move into FEMA camps... the middle class will become poor as the savings becomes worthless and the retirement checks buy very little in the black market...

I lived it in Brazil in the mid 1980s.. I watched Engineers who had been paid the equivalent of 2000 dollars per month have the value of the money go down faster than the monthly indexing would keep up with ... so by the time I left those same engineers with ten years experience ended up earning about 350 bucks per month... of course wage and price controls stepped in.. trying to keep rice and beans affordable...but then what happened of course was shortages, because farmers started growing stuff that was NOT price controlled...

Dennis G

Last edited by Dennis G; 11-29-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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  #57  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Dennis G Male Dennis G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehairedidiot View Post
Well, I see we all have about the same opinion of Dr. Reich... hahahaha!

*-***********************

So, what if the marines are more concerned about their families... their homes? And what if those communities had their own Tippy-Top Super Secret Plan that was in place before SHTF? )
I think marines and LEOs and Army and other folks who are schooled in small force tactics will become part of the community and will help organize a small like minded group to protect the community from outsiders...

In the book The Patriots and The Survivors, Rawles wrote that former military and former LEOs joined groups and communities, and also worked for former rich people who had lots of assets and stored fuel and food etc... some worked for gold and silver also...

Anyway.. you cannot live in fear... you have to prepare for you and yours to deal with various possible futures... and that also includes keeping your own skills and abilities honed so if the economy IS reduced to barter, you have something to offer in the way of abilities .....

Dennis G
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:41 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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"I've been hearing some things out of LE and elsewhere, about co-opting some of the more organized gangs..."

Or vice-versa? Is it easier for the cops to infiltrate a cartel, or the gangs to infiltrate the cops?

You do bring up great points, as usual.

The one comment I have is that it the government's, ANY government's, first priority to preserve itself. For every five jerks drawing a check, there's at least one dedicated person who will stick with his agency based on a belief he's doing something worthwhile, and the paycheck is incidental to that work. That person will do his job because he thinks it needs doing, and a job well done is reward in itself. That attitude has kept at least one organization going for over 100 years -- The Salvation Army. While the motivation may be different, I think that some LEOs and military people have the same attitude.

To refer back to another thread (I think? I'm starting to get all the different threads confused with one another), logistics rules. Them with the most-est who get there first-est, win.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:53 AM
whitehairedidiot Female whitehairedidiot is offline
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Dennis - I can't thank you enough for sharing your previous experiences of what a financial meltdown looked like in other countries. We can read all the academic what-ifs and listen to all the talking heads (who all say pretty much the same things) we want... but nothing is quite so educational as first-hand experience. This is where the real life-lessons are, I find. Sooooo many people, I believe, see this as only affecting the bottom-line on their bank accounts and retirement investments... and then they stop seeing what that will impact, as the dominos start to topple.

The government, talking heads and economists are all guilty of that, too. They simply don't know it yet. Sure there are contingency plans - have been since the days of the cold war... when our generation was taught to crawl under our desks and basically kiss our derrieres goodbye (though for little kids, they told them they'd be OK... sigh... they didn't fool anyone who had a brain.)

Part of the problem for government, atm, is that they have let themselves be surrounded by different kinds of issues - big, serious issues. They even can be cited for creating some of the problems we now face. Sure they have contingency plans - which I believe are about as irrelevant and ineffective as the "solutions" they implement which cause bigger problems. They've brought in on themselves -- but we, the people -- the electorate will be paying the price for their idiocy and profligacy and even promiscuity, diplomatically. What bothers me, is how government has slowly but inexorably removed the people's power to hold the incompetent and the misguided accountable for their actions which now leave us in this precarious position. Tactically, the odds aren't in the favor of the US right now. At least, not the way the government is remodeling the US. That in itself, is another problem for "we the people" to solve... because it should be getting very clear that gov't is in panic mode... and only making a bad situation worse.

LOL... I almost referred to my interest in tactics in the last post, Grumble! Yes, there is overlap between these two threads. In reference to the cartels, and your suggestion that there might other criminal groups which would struggle for power, leaving citizens in the middle of the war zone... I stumbled on an obscure movie a couple weeks ago. It was "Kill the Irishman" - a biopic about a labor organizer and his association with organized crime, in Cleveland. He was Danny Greene. I didn't get to see the whole movie, they've been working on our cable in the area and we have frequent outages right now, along with some intermittent, short-lived power outages courtesy of Irene & Sandy... damage that just recently revealed itself.

Point is, while watching this harsh movie... I was reminded of my own childhood environment in the 60s, in Ohio. Steel Unions... Jimmy Hoffa... and all that. I had forgotten the link between those unions and the mafia, when I left behind that world and moved on to other "universes". We really don't hear much about RICO... or the mob... these days. And it makes me curious (not always a good or safe personal characteristic) about the reason WHY.

I am not fool enough to believe it has faded away and is a thing of the past.

I wish I could remember where I read it - but not that long ago I read something like a profile of Valerie Jarrett and what her past "life" in Chicago politics consisted of. This profile also, started to remind me of the real-life power struggles of mobbed up unions... I started to see some of the same patterns.

It could all be my imagination that there is any tenuous link between all of this - granted. But another lesson I learned as a kid, is that more often than we know: life imitates art, more than the other way around.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:31 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
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Aha! So YOU'RE the one that knows what happened to Jimmy Hoffa!

I hadn't even thought about how unions and "Da Mob" would mix into the mess.* It could be really hard to know who is a friend, who's really neutral, and who to watch out for. It's possible that the ones who are most harmful don't appear to be so until they bite.

The one thing we can be fairly sure of is that every person will try to protect or provide for their own sphere of influence.

*[pardon the unintentional alliteration]
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