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Old 04-28-2015, 12:13 AM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Default Weapons Systems

I have observed a phenomenon people fall into when they speak of buying a weapon. The weapon itself is considered as a stand-alone object, i.e. there is little thought given as to its supporting equipment, method of use and training requirements. Itís well and good to buy the ultimate do-everything way cool sexy gun, but I would submit that thatís only a first step, and that people need to consider the weapon to be only a part of a whole, a weapons system.

What do I mean?

Take for example the humble AK-47. The rifle itself is a seven-pound hunk of stamped or milled steel and plywood. Without its supporting equipment, it makes a pretty fair club, but thatís about it. To make the AK effective one needs the following items: ammunition, magazines, spare parts, sight adjustment tools, load bearing equipment and training. To be specific, training in handling techniques, maintenance and live fire. When you bring all of these together, you have a weapons system.

The purchase of the rifle is important, but I ask the reader to consider the total cost involved of a system. This can double or triple the initial cost of a weapon, especially if one includes a good optical sight. Using the AK as an example, the user should have the following objects as a minimum- 630 rounds of ammunition (three ďcombat loadsĒ ie 210 rounds), seven magazines, an extra set of springs and clips, a front sight adjustment tool, a means of carrying loaded magazines that facilitates rapid reloading, and a decent manual. Once a person has these things, they need to master the disassembly, assembly and cleaning of the weapon. Then they should practice (WITH A CONFIRMED CLEAR WEAPON AND EMPTY MAGAZINES) loading and reloading procedures until it seems second nature. Once this has been done, take the weapon to the range and zero it. After zeroing, fire until sore- hopefully hitting the target most of the time.

Be sure to immediately replace expended ammunition and clean your weapon.

Once the above has been taken care of, you donít just have some random weapon, you have a weapons system and some degree of confidence in its use. For advanced proficiency, I would recommend an extended camping trip with the weapon and firing it at night or during inclement conditions.

Congratulations- you are now ready for the zombies! Enjoy.

Check my other threads for my OPINIONS (and we all know what those are worth lol) re:weapons, gear and literature.

Last edited by essayons4791; 04-28-2015 at 12:29 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2015, 01:38 AM
Kachad Male Kachad is offline
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Good post and spot on.

One additional point that I would make is regular use at the range.
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Old 04-28-2015, 01:49 AM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Absolutely. Shooting is a perishable skill. Left that out, good catch!
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Old 04-28-2015, 03:14 AM
Kachad Male Kachad is offline
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Absolutely. Shooting is a perishable skill. Left that out, good catch!
I'm very familiar with the perishable skill scenario. I usually stop hitting the range around deer-rifle season then start back up in March. I don't see much drop in rifle handling, but when it comes to pistol - the spring startup accuracy is noticeably lower.

There are indoor ranges in The Cities which I could go to in the Winter, and for that matter a couple of outdoor ranges.

I absolutely hate going to indoor ranges, hate to say it but I get nervous around strangers with firearms and indoor ranges seem to have a high percentage of nut cases.

I was an RSO for a couple of years at a local outdoor (edit - local = The Cities) range. Seems like a better mix of people, but still a lot of whack jobs. A lot of stories to tell about that, couldn't deal with some of the people and had to walk away from that.

Which kind of brings the thoughts back to weapon systems. It was amazing how many people went to the range, packing a wide variety of expensive firearms, then handling them like a teenager trying to dance on prom night. It ain't pretty.
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Old 04-28-2015, 12:55 PM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Yeah, I've seen that too. A smorgasbord of weapons is nice, but it's tough to use them all at once. Best practice on range day is to take one partner to the dance with a secondary. Primary=rifle, Secondary=pistol.

As you mention, you can always tell who has practiced and who has not.

Fortunately where I live we do most of our shooting in the back yard or out in the woods, I don't think I could deal with the crowds (and crazies) at a city range.
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Old 04-29-2015, 12:47 AM
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Excellent advice.

I'm no authority, not even a little bit, but I carry your "systems" logic a bit further by standardizing rounds and manufacturers across platforms. All my semi-auto pistols fire the same round and use the same mags and parts. My carbine shares the same rounds and mags as the pistols.

Shotguns and defense rifles - same standards.

The idea is that if everything is similar, it's easier to maintain, easier to feed etc.

Along those lines - rather than invest a bag of money in the latest, greatest most tricked out weapon system I chose to invest a similar amount of coin into plainer arms but more of them. That way I have arms to hand out to those whom I trust to watch my six. (as a townie, Baltimore and Ferguson are very likely scenarios in my world.)
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Old 04-29-2015, 06:57 PM
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Good post.

I agree......To a point.
Can't wrap my head around same caliber pistol/carbine combos.....Have some....but I don't like a tool box with all #2 Phillips screwdrivers.

But I will expand you requirements to include re-loading equipment, components and supplies......molds for pouring bullets/gas checks etc. (not wise for some calibers, but still a concern.

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Old 04-29-2015, 10:41 PM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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I'll admit to having a bit of an eclectic collection myself. Everything from a Lee-Enfield my father bought me when I was twelve to a passel of Mosins. I also have some losers I need to sell or just plain throw away- a useless Remington 11-87 (shoulda bought a Saiga or stuck with the 870) and a Rossi .38 lever action carbine that stovepipes if you look at it funny.

However, those are not my bread and butter pieces.

You could absolutely add reloading equipment to the list. Just make sure you don't buy a bunch of stuff and never use it. Practice makes perfect.

Last edited by essayons4791; 04-29-2015 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:43 AM
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Everything that gets fired.....except steel cases, and the rare rim-fires...as well as some shot gun shells...... get re-loaded.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:55 AM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Kind of off-topic Hunter, but I heard once that you could reload rimfires using paste made from match tips. You know anything about that?

Besides that, yeah, I reload with an old Lee O-press. Slow but sure.

Wanna buy an 11-87? It's cheap- the double-shucking, short-stroking piece of crap. Lol, learned my lesson. Not a candidate as a System.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:58 AM
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But I will expand you requirements to include re-loading equipment, components and supplies......molds for pouring bullets/gas checks etc. (not wise for some calibers, but still a concern.

.
There's a lot to be said about reloading and the idea of knowing your weapons system\s.

Since I've been reloading, I spend a lot more time at the range. Not just because it's cheaper, but it makes the range time even more interesting. Especially when you're working up loads for a specific firearm.

When you're working up those loads, you run through a lot of ordnance, and not only get extremely familiar with one firearm, but how all of your firearms compare to each other.
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:03 AM
Kachad Male Kachad is offline
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Wanna buy an 11-87? It's cheap- the double-shucking, short-stroking piece of crap. Lol, learned my lesson. Not a candidate as a System.
Wanna trade that 11-87 for a Remmy 740 30-06 carbine?

Just kidding, the 740 was my Father's so I have to keep it. Touchy as hell. Hasn't seen any action on a deer stand for many many years.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by essayons4791 View Post
Kind of off-topic Hunter, but I heard once that you could reload rimfires using paste made from match tips. You know anything about that?

Besides that, yeah, I reload with an old Lee O-press. Slow but sure.

Wanna buy an 11-87? It's cheap- the double-shucking, short-stroking piece of crap. Lol, learned my lesson. Not a candidate as a System.
Have hear that as well....have chosen not to even try to mess with it....

I have included muzzle loaders into my system.....so if anything, black powder would be a possible home brew.....(can not confirm or deny knowing anything about it.)

Sorry to hear your having trouble with the 11-87....been using a couple of Rem 870 Expresses (bottom end models) for many years.
They seem keep on going,...of course, sliding around in the bottom of the canoe, boat, river, lake, down the hills, barbed wire fence scratches....shooting rusted "brass" shells that split.......so they don't look so good any more.

Even loaded a blue Scripto lighter into it once, by rushing my loading from my pocket while a flock of ducks were flying....looked down and thought WTF is blue?...So ejected it into the swamp and kept shooting.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:44 PM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Yeah, I wish I woulda bought an 870 instead of that 11-87, but I wanted an autoloader... that'll learn me.

The 870 is a fine shotgun that won't let you down.

Kachad mentioned inherited guns. One of my favorites is an old break-open Iver Johnson 12 that fed our family through the Depression. Guess Grandpa had more sense than me because he probably spent 5 bucks on that thing and it's never let anyone down, ever. Unlike the 11-87...
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:29 PM
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I started out with a Crescent Arms 12 ga SS.....Depression punch card shot gun........and the two shell rule.
You got two shells, better come home with something...if you did, you got two more.
If not...there was grass to mow, garden to weed and all sorts of other chores.

Still have it....
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:51 PM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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Holy cow, our parents musta known each other or something, cause we had the exact same rule, and the exact same chores.

One thing that old break open taught me as a kid, long before I raised my right hand, was FIRE DISCIPLINE. Don't shoot until you are sure of your target, and you eat what you shoot.

I graduated from the old "punkin ball gun" (that's what my grandma called it) to a "new" Enfield. I got it on Christmas day and the next morning I was back in the corn field with it... A lot of fond memories.

Weapons system for those old irons? A couple of rounds and Grandpa's tin canteen on a khaki belt.
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Old 05-02-2015, 01:11 AM
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Holy cow, our parents musta known each other or something, cause we had the exact same rule, and the exact same chores.

One thing that old break open taught me as a kid, long before I raised my right hand, was FIRE DISCIPLINE. Don't shoot until you are sure of your target, and you eat what you shoot.

I graduated from the old "punkin ball gun" (that's what my grandma called it) to a "new" Enfield. I got it on Christmas day and the next morning I was back in the corn field with it... A lot of fond memories.

Weapons system for those old irons? A couple of rounds and Grandpa's tin canteen on a khaki belt.
Pumpkin ball thru the 12 ga was kinda a toss up of who got up first, you or what you shot at....for a 12 years old......had to shoot it with a leather glove...or the break lever would pinch the web of your hand when you fired it.

My weapon systems these day are H&R SS ,with a lot of different barrels for the Handi and Toppers.
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:03 AM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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LOL, you ain't lying about that, even though with the Iver I never had trouble with the lever, it was the trigger guard that would hit my middle finger. The Enfield was a pussy cat compared to a slug through that shotgun.

That gun was one of the hardest recoiling beasts I've ever fired, even the Barrett .50s I shot in the service weren't that bad. And my dad used to just laugh at me and tell me it wasn't as bad as a Garand. What a liar- he knew darned well how hard that thing bucked.

There's a lot to be said about the little H&R guns, one of my kids has the .22/20ga combo and a friend of mine has the .223/243 combo.
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