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History history n. A record or narrative description of past events and times.

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  #21  
Old 07-03-2012, 01:09 PM
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It isn't economic status that determines a person's need to serve their country. It's all about values.
Growing up I was taught certain values, duty, honor and country among them. My several times great grandfather was a private in George Washingtons Continental Army, and endured hardship and privations to win freedom for us. Duty, honor, and country is in my DNA, it runs through my bloodstream.
In 1967 I voluntarily enlisted in the United States Army, and in 1969 I requested (and was granted) overseas service in the Republic of Vietnam.
I would do it all over again, even knowing the outcome.
I am not a "victim", nor do I wish to be perceived as such. It is distasteful to me.


"If a man will not fight for this country, I suggest he go find a country he will fight for." Admiral Raymond Spruance.

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  #22  
Old 07-03-2012, 02:50 PM
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Growing up I was taught certain values, duty, honor and country among them.
I think our thought process has changed a lot since Vietnam. My grandpa was plain, and did not serve in WW1 because his parents felt killing was sin, war is sin. My father tried to serve in WW2, but was unable to join because of his heart, although one of his brothers did get to join the navy because he didn't inherit the same node defect as so many in the family. In Vietnam, one cousin did serve, while two others went to Canada to avoid the draft. Personally, I would do anything in my power to not allow any of my children or grandchildren to join the military. We had one child who wanted to join, and even had the paperwork he had started to fill out. He never turned that back in or went back to join. We encouraged him not to join. And I am so pleased that he didn't.
Times change mores. And even in one family, the mores are ever changing. I would assume that today the mores of society concerning the idea of joining the military is very different than it was in 1942. The post Vietnam attitude towards wars is different than the attitude in the early part of the century.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:12 AM
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I think our thought process has changed a lot since Vietnam. My grandpa was plain, and did not serve in WW1 because his parents felt killing was sin, war is sin. My father tried to serve in WW2, but was unable to join because of his heart, although one of his brothers did get to join the navy because he didn't inherit the same node defect as so many in the family. In Vietnam, one cousin did serve, while two others went to Canada to avoid the draft. Personally, I would do anything in my power to not allow any of my children or grandchildren to join the military. We had one child who wanted to join, and even had the paperwork he had started to fill out. He never turned that back in or went back to join. We encouraged him not to join. And I am so pleased that he didn't.
Times change mores. And even in one family, the mores are ever changing. I would assume that today the mores of society concerning the idea of joining the military is very different than it was in 1942. The post Vietnam attitude towards wars is different than the attitude in the early part of the century.
With all due respect, ma'am, if enough Americans held your point of view we would no longer be a free country and you would not be able to express your opinion.
Without a strong military to deter other countries who may have designs upon us we could very well be occupied by a foriegn invader.
I, and every other person who has worn the uniform, in war and peace, have served so you may have the rights you presently enjoy. Your freedom is not free, it has been bought and paid for by us.
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:00 PM
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The very early 60's were a mixture of wonder and saddness.

A first in this country:A young catholic President.

The Intergration of schools--I didnt know they werent--
I went to school with black/mexican/and many asian kids.
(After Korea--WW2--we had many asians--in the Rio Grande Valley
a farmers Paradise---)

In 1963--the death of my fourth son--Jerald Glenn--in Aug.
and by November the death/assaination of the President JFK.
I was standing in the PO in Conroe Texas--picking up my Mothers mail
she was down w/the flu--the Postmaster slammed the little mail-door
in my face.

I went home--stunned--not understanding how that could happen and
I had to tell my Mother--She collaphsed--scared the bejebbers out of me.

I remember the 60's-the latter half as a confusing--accustory state of affairs.
Rumors abounded---The horror--and the sad confusing time when a Nation was
so totally lost---at war and I remember the fear---

Txanne
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:28 PM
oldtimer oldtimer is offline
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I don't have those numbers, and neither do you. My reply would be, "quite a few." The military is a cross-section of the US population. If 1% of the population is a millionaire or congress critter, then I'd guess that pretty close to 1% of the military came from such families.

Actually, maybe a bit lower. Those young people who sign up would only come from families who feel an obligation to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That leaves out about 40% of the families in this country who endorse crapping on the flag and shouting gimme-gimme-gimme.

It isn't economic status that determines a person's need to serve their country. It's all about values.
When the war in Iraq was started, there was one person in congress with a son in the military that was involved. That was Senator Johnson's son from South Dakota.

The rich can afford to send their kids to school and they enjoy living a lavish life in a free country that was purchased for them with the blood of the poor.

I read in a newspaper but didn't save the article that in today's military there's a disproportionate number of troops from the midwest and south compared to large cities and wealthy backgrounds. I'm sure the article was telling the truth as in thirty years of teaching school I've noticed the graduating seniors from the lower income homes join the military, never the ones from homes that have plenty of money. Mommy and daddy send them to school and they become doctors and lawyers or pharmacists, or politicians. The poorer kids many of them enter the military and have no plans to go to college either so it's not education that's causing them to join, with the last half dozen I know personally it's because they weren't going to college and there's no jobs to be had other than hauling manure or flipping burgers.

As for values, you betcha, you are absolutely right. The kids I refer to are the ones with values: God, country, hard work. The well to do usually don't value anything but money and self.

The poor only have their values, thank God. If they had money, they'd be as bad as the seemingly worthless bunch of ignoramuses we send to Washington D.C. to "represent" us. They don't represent us. They represent the crowd with the silver spoon in their mouth that thinks we should be socialists or communists as long as they can continue being the upper crust.

Upper crust: A bunch of crumbs held together by a little dough.

Last edited by oldtimer; 04-13-2013 at 03:36 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #26  
Old 04-14-2013, 12:04 PM
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Oldtimer

You are so very wise and very right.

A small rabbit trail---very few of those silverspoon babies ever see prison or death row.

Money tals and American freedom walks.

Thank you
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:29 AM
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Spending the last four years in and out of Nam I missed all the free love. I would have made a great hippy. And it wasn't free in Asia damn.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:28 AM
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Coincidence? Irony?

This week, Nat Geo's TV channel is running a 3 day special on: "The 80's - the decade that made us who we are".

The tag line made me snort. Even tho I'd gone back to college, living in a farmhouse with a shallow well, that surrounded an original log cabin going back to the 1700s... finally got a "real job" or two... in the 80s --

for the most part, the best description of me was that I was a single mom, scraping along month to month, trying to make ends meet and driving an 11 yr old, patched & taped & dang near everything replaced at least once VW.

I was reading "Bonfire of the Vanities"... about the Wall St wizkids who self-titled themselves "Masters of the Universe"... and could pretty much predict how the book ended.

By '90, we bought 90 acres in the middle of nowhere WV and started building our house, orchards, garden, etc.

Nope; that decade was the one where I finally convinced myself I could survive whatever society decided to impose on people. I didn't participate in that lunacy.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:22 AM
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When the war in Iraq was started, there was one person in congress with a son in the military that was involved. That was Senator Johnson's son from South Dakota.

The rich can afford to send their kids to school and they enjoy living a lavish life in a free country that was purchased for them with the blood of the poor.

I read in a newspaper but didn't save the article that in today's military there's a disproportionate number of troops from the midwest and south compared to large cities and wealthy backgrounds. I'm sure the article was telling the truth as in thirty years of teaching school I've noticed the graduating seniors from the lower income homes join the military, never the ones from homes that have plenty of money. Mommy and daddy send them to school and they become doctors and lawyers or pharmacists, or politicians. The poorer kids many of them enter the military and have no plans to go to college either so it's not education that's causing them to join, with the last half dozen I know personally it's because they weren't going to college and there's no jobs to be had other than hauling manure or flipping burgers.

As for values, you betcha, you are absolutely right. The kids I refer to are the ones with values: God, country, hard work. The well to do usually don't value anything but money and self.

The poor only have their values, thank God. If they had money, they'd be as bad as the seemingly worthless bunch of ignoramuses we send to Washington D.C. to "represent" us. They don't represent us. They represent the crowd with the silver spoon in their mouth that thinks we should be socialists or communists as long as they can continue being the upper crust.

Upper crust: A bunch of crumbs held together by a little dough.
Actually none of that except the geographical data is remotely correct. Heritage foundation did a study on it .

here is an extract but you can aread he rest if you choose:

Quote:
1.U.S. military service disproportionately attracts enlisted personnel and officerswho do not come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Previous Heritage Foundation research demonstrated that the quality of enlisted troops has increased since the start of the Iraq war. This report demonstrates that the same is true of the officer corps.

2.Members of the all-volunteer military are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods. Only 11 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth (quintile) of neighborhoods, while 25 percent came from the wealthiest quintile. These trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program, in which 40 percent of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods-a number that has increased substantially over the past four years.

3.American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18-24 years old, and 95 percent of officer accessions have at least a bachelor's degree.

4.Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not overrepresented in military service. Enlisted troops are somewhat more likely to be white or black than their non-military peers. Whites are proportionately represented in the officer corps, and blacks are overrepresented, but their rate of overrepresentation has declined each year from 2004 to 2007. New recruits are also disproportionately likely to come from the South, which is in line with the history of Southern military tradition.

The facts do not support the belief that many American soldiers volunteer because society offers them few other opportunities. The average enlisted person or officer could have had lucrative career opportunities in the private sector. Those who argue that American soldiers risk their lives because they have no other opportunities belittle the personal sacrifices of those who serve out of love for their country.
http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...s-and-officers

so you know I am one of those that enlisted back in the day like RPD and ended up serving 10 years. so read and see that todays enlistee's do so for the same reason we did back in the 60's.


In my job, i deal with militarty recruitersdaily in Kansas, Missouri and Iowa and the trouble they have is getting men and women that can pass the test to get in. it is pretty tough now a days.
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  #30  
Old 04-21-2013, 11:28 AM
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Actually none of that except the geographical data is remotely correct. Heritage foundation did a study on it .

here is an extract but you can aread he rest if you choose:



http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...s-and-officers

so you know I am one of those that enlisted back in the day like RPD and ended up serving 10 years. so read and see that todays enlistee's do so for the same reason we did back in the 60's.


In my job, i deal with militarty recruitersdaily in Kansas, Missouri and Iowa and the trouble they have is getting men and women that can pass the test to get in. it is pretty tough now a days.
Problem is, what you and I are talking about Poor or poorest are not the same thing. I do not consider the leaches of society to be our "poor". They don't work, never have worked and never will work, kind of like our politicians, they live off the rest of us.

By poor I mean lower income of those actually working.

Passing the test joining?? I would assume if they pass the grade, then maybe they're smart enough to stay out of the military. I've a son who passed your grade. I am not rejoicing in the fact he's joined. Don't try to convince me that the army of today is the same as what it once was, nor try to convince me that war is right, because it is always poor innocent people who get hurt in war's process.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:16 AM
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Problem is, what you and I are talking about Poor or poorest are not the same thing. I do not consider the leaches of society to be our "poor". They don't work, never have worked and never will work, kind of like our politicians, they live off the rest of us.

By poor I mean lower income of those actually working.

Passing the test joining?? I would assume if they pass the grade, then maybe they're smart enough to stay out of the military. I've a son who passed your grade. I am not rejoicing in the fact he's joined. Don't try to convince me that the army of today is the same as what it once was, nor try to convince me that war is right, because it is always poor innocent people who get hurt in war's process.
Oldtimer
And you and I know that rich mens sons dont die in battle---
The Army of my Dad's day was way different than today and WW2.
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:05 PM
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Less than 10% of the eligible targeted US population even qualifies to join the military today.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:34 PM
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I have always been of the opinion that if you decide to drop out of high school, you're in boot camp until you are 18. Only time you could "get out" would be, in leg irons to attend the funeral of parent, grandparent, or sibling. Then after the service, back to camp (no luncheon/wake afterward). Even if only 25% straighten-the-hades-up, society will be better off.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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I have never been a great one for the military but have seen the wall. Oh how sobering and moving it is , especially when you see yourself reflected and you see those many names you think, but for the grace of God . . .

Then I went to Gettysburg and saw all the graves and couldn't help but cry when I came to a group of graves where all the names were Mennonite and Quaker names. These boys had been raised that war was wrong and yet somehow they were caught up in that terrible war. So as the Bible says, there's nothing new under the sun.

As for doing away with the draft, that's a rich man's advantage as it now insures all the cannon fodder are poor folks. Many a poor family's son has gone off to the military as it was good money and the Army or whatever promised them the world on a chain. To get a college education many boys and girls have joined up where if they were rich kids they wouldn't have been forced to do so.
So agree with you.

I have stood at that wall in DC and my stomach cringed and I fought crying out loud. Walk along that wall, every name is a person's life cut short under terrible circumstances.

Send the kids of those who start the wars to fight them.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:30 AM
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Problem is, what you and I are talking about Poor or poorest are not the same thing. I do not consider the leaches of society to be our "poor". They don't work, never have worked and never will work, kind of like our politicians, they live off the rest of us.

By poor I mean lower income of those actually working.

Passing the test joining?? I would assume if they pass the grade, then maybe they're smart enough to stay out of the military. I've a son who passed your grade. I am not rejoicing in the fact he's joined. Don't try to convince me that the army of today is the same as what it once was, nor try to convince me that war is right, because it is always poor innocent people who get hurt in war's process.
The test is qualification test to join... Has zero to due grae in school if that is what you are talking about ..poor definition. You can interpret the facts any way you want. I just present them. Income level has nothing to do with it.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:10 PM
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Poverty? Here is Fred's take on it, and he makes sense, as usual.
http://www.fredoneverything.net/GitSome.shtml

check it out, Fred usually is a good read.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:43 AM
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The test is qualification test to join... Has zero to due grae in school if that is what you are talking about ..poor definition. You can interpret the facts any way you want. I just present them. Income level has nothing to do with it.
I was in a marine recruiters office this week, I talk to him about the qualification test. He said it is written so a 10th grader should pass it. Today he said a great majority of HS grads can not pass the test.
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Old 05-12-2013, 03:47 PM
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Pretty sad if you can't pass an ASVAB. I know that's what they called it don't remember the definition or if I abbreviated it right. When I was in the service you didn't need a HS diploma now you do, and people still can't pass the asvab. Sad state of affairs.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:38 AM
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I have always been of the opinion that if you decide to drop out of high school, you're in boot camp until you are 18. Only time you could "get out" would be, in leg irons to attend the funeral of parent, grandparent, or sibling. Then after the service, back to camp (no luncheon/wake afterward). Even if only 25% straighten-the-hades-up, society will be better off.
Selena

Thats so Hitleristic.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:40 AM
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Less than 10% of the eligible targeted US population even qualifies to join the military today.
Thats scary--taking the brighter of society and sending them off to war.

And I wonder if we cant lay all this at the feet of our indoctrination systems called public schools?

Kids can whip every computer game that comes out but cant read or write a sentence?
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