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Go Back   BHM Forum > Homesteading > Education/Homeschool

Education/Homeschool Homeschooling, adult education, teaching self-reliance, and anything else education-related.

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  #1  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:05 AM
invertedsphere invertedsphere is offline
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Default Permission to Use the Restroom at School

I started the Restroom Laws Movement recently, which aims to bring an end to students asking permission to use the restroom in compulsory schools. It is abuse on the level of tyranny for the school to have and use the power to deny students to perform unquestionably necessary tasks, all while forcing them to attend whether they want to or not. There are even some schools where students are always granted permission, so long as they ask for it, which is completely ironic considering that asking permission presumes the possibility of denial.

My solution is simple: Compulsory students who ask permission to use the restroom need to organize in a non-violent, non-cooperative fashion, and simply stop asking permission altogether. I believe this will be the most effective and useful way to accomplish my goal for a few reasons. First, if students instead ask their school boards to change the rules, it would only be another way of asking permission to use the restroom. Second, if even one school's restroom rules get overturned entirely by the power of the students, students at other schools will likely catch on quickly. Third, if students overturn the restroom rules at their school, which can be relatively easy, they will likely see that they have the power to overturn other rules that are disrespectful to them. Given long enough, such a pattern could very well lead to the fall of the compulsory school system and other corrupted government systems and laws (and possibly rebuilding), as well as a lot of restructuring of society as a whole.

Below is an open letter I wrote to the students who are required by the law to attend school:

To all students required by the law to attend school:

Asking permission to use the restroom is absurd. Denying students permission to use the restroom is inhumane. Even if you never get denied, asking permission is ironic and illogical because you presume that you could be denied. Whatever the outcome, demanding students to ask permission for restroom access does not teach sound, logical reasoning. You ask permission so the faculty can maintain order, but to keep track of you they actually only need to be informed, not asked. The most effective change you can make is to stop asking permission altogether.

You are the only person who truly knows when you need to use the restroom. If you are punished for not asking permission, then the faculty is being disrespectful to the fact that your body doesnít operate according to their agenda. The current school system is an industry designed to standardize you, but there are no standard people.

The school system has no control over you because the choice to obey is always yours. If you want to make lasting changes, though, you need to work together in large numbers. If you and only a few other people choose not to obey, the faculty will try to intimidate you and your family until you obey or get expelled while permission remains. However, if you and many other people choose not to obey, the faculty will change their ways so that the school doesnít fall apart. Your school cannot afford to stay open without the support of many of its students because your participation represents money.

Non-violent non-cooperation is the key. No matter what anybody tells you, do not give in. Ignore them if you have to. If you are asked where youíre going, tell the truth. If you are told to stop, keep going.

Working on a simple matter, like restroom permission, will make it easy for many people to learn how to work together on bigger issues. If you want, you can destroy the school system as we know it and replace it with something you want. Education is empowerment, so if you donít feel very empowered, something has to change, and asking for that change will not be as successful as causing it.

Respectfully Yours,
Brandon R. Farmer
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  #2  
Old 07-08-2010, 04:30 PM
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mistyriver mistyriver is offline
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You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.
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  #3  
Old 07-08-2010, 04:43 PM
cinok Male cinok is offline
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Originally Posted by mistyriver View Post
You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.
I second that
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  #4  
Old 07-08-2010, 06:06 PM
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A policy that lets the kids leave class anytime they want to use the restroom would be abused.
The teachers would find themselves with an empty classrooms and bathrooms full of partying kids.
Must be a kid that came up with that idea.
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  #5  
Old 07-08-2010, 07:22 PM
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make mine vote # 4.
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2010, 09:38 PM
indyguy Male indyguy is offline
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make my vote #5
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2010, 10:05 PM
invertedsphere invertedsphere is offline
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Default Folks, you're missing the point.

Quote:
You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.
Quote:
A policy that lets the kids leave class anytime they want to use the restroom would be abused.
The teachers would find themselves with an empty classrooms and bathrooms full of partying kids.
Must be a kid that came up with that idea.
If you don't give young people trust, you'll have a hard time getting any in return. Furthermore, if schools were actually empowering their students instead of subjugating them to perform tasks for a machine, more students wouldn't be so interested in skipping class. Also, you give young people as a whole far, far too little credit: not every single student is interested in breaking rules and causing havoc, in fact, an overwhelming amount of them actually want to participate in activities that will empower them to be successful in the world. If some people act up too much, they can be kicked out, enabling the schools to better serve the students who actually want to learn something. Seriously people, we have to stop treating everyone as though they are of the lowest common denominator.

Peace,
Brandon R. Farmer
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  #8  
Old 07-08-2010, 11:07 PM
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We use to go to church where the pastor's wife was a bit controlling. She came up with a bunch of rules about leaving service and using the restroom. One day, near the end of service which was running long, I just had to go. (I take Lasix, so I can only wait so long.) Anyway from the pulpit, she asks, "has service been dismissed yet?" Ticked me off majorly, which is not a common thing for me. I'm usually kind of sweet to people, but I just got angry. I mean I was over 40, had a medical issue, and knew when I have to go empty my bladder. So I answered her, "If you like everyone can turn their heads while I pee in the corner." and pointed to the corner in back. Stone silence. My husband just shook his head, and there were a few giggles and throat clearings in the congregation. Then I turned and walked out of the sanctuary. Our relationship with that church was never the same, and we stopped going there. One of the kids is getting married there, so I'm wondering how that will go.
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  #9  
Old 07-09-2010, 04:51 AM
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Sometimes a person just has to excuse themselves. Many of the restroom breaks I took, I did go to the john, but it wasn't because I needed to, but I still had to 'ask' to go (more like announce where I was going). It is one of those 'get out of classroom for 5 minutes free' tickets, but if you abuse it, you're gonna lose it. We also had to ask if we could get a drink of water, but a kid never asked more than once a period, but if he did, should he not be allowed since water is a neccessity of life? What if he wants to spend the whole period there? Where do you draw the line? Is it the teacher's or administrator's place to draw the line on how often a kid can access a neccessity of life?

I took adult ed in my early 20's (one of the few who went for an eddymacation) and the policy was, 'You're an adult, excuse yourself if something is going on(presentation, speech, etc), otherwise, leave quietly and do your thing'. People were coming and going all the time, they were adults, btw. One day, I was struggling and needed to get out for a few minutes (sometimes, a person just needs to excuse himself), instead of going to the john, I went out for a smoke, I was an adult, dammit!, and there were a few people out there. Thats apparently where they go when they take their unrequested restroom break. That was people (including me) that were adults, and were trusted with an open bathroom break policy.
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  #10  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:44 PM
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I would rather see longer breaks between classes, than students leaving class to use the bathroom or get a drink. At our public school, students only have 5 minutes between classes, which is not enough time to go to their locker for books and supplies for the next class, go to the bathroom, get a drink, and make it to their next class in time.
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  #11  
Old 07-10-2010, 04:24 PM
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I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.

Please start that movement...
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  #12  
Old 07-10-2010, 06:48 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fcY7...eature=related
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  #13  
Old 07-10-2010, 07:13 PM
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"Charlie Brown" by the coasters! Love it. Nostalgic memories for sure.
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  #14  
Old 07-10-2010, 09:20 PM
invertedsphere invertedsphere is offline
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Default Like begets like

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Originally Posted by AzLoneRider View Post
I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.

Please start that movement...
Such a job is a fantasy, and if you are alluding to the idea that I am suggesting that young people in school use that approach, you are mistaken. Education is necessary for a literate community able to innovate. When students are treated as though they are prisoners who obey the rules out of fear of punishment, rather than fear of what distraction they may bestow upon their fellows, it's rather difficult to view the educational environment as a source of empowerment. If students are given more respect and encouraged to take care of their bodies, we would see a general increase in productivity that outweighs whatever short-term decreases there may be. Some students will completely abuse the privilege, and they will be dealt with accordingly, perhaps expelled so they may no longer provide distraction for the rest of the students. The majority of students, however, truly do wish to succeed in life and do cherish the opportunity to learn, and they will respect the privilege because they understand that fundamental respect as a tool for their success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Junie View Post
I would rather see longer breaks between classes, than students leaving class to use the bathroom or get a drink. At our public school, students only have 5 minutes between classes, which is not enough time to go to their locker for books and supplies for the next class, go to the bathroom, get a drink, and make it to their next class in time.
I agree with you that longer breaks between classes would help students find more time to get a drink and use the restroom. No matter how long we make the breaks, however, it will not address the fact that every single body runs on the same strict timeline. Life is far too plentiful with variety of body types, diets, hydration necessity, etc. to expect 100% regularity in the need of any given student to use the restroom. A simple way that students could leave the classroom for the restroom while still at least giving the teacher the ability to monitor and maintain order, without asking permission, would be to have a drop box in class where the student puts a slip of identifying paper that marks the time. If problems occur, the teacher can look back over the log of people who left and came back and when, and it would be possible to narrow in on the source of the problem and make it stop.

-----------

Moderation is key. The all-or-nothing attitude of "every student will misbehave if we allow them any chance to demonstrate responsibility" is one of the best ways to teach them that that is how it is. Like begets like. If you expect misbehavior, you'll likely get it. If you foster true responsibility, instead of forcing it, the results will likely be favorable.

Last edited by invertedsphere; 07-10-2010 at 09:29 PM. Reason: typos
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  #15  
Old 07-10-2010, 09:49 PM
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I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.
Sounds like a job description for Congress.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:41 AM
Junie Female Junie is offline
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Invertedsphere, maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't believe you can trust kids to be responsible. I used to leave the classroom during every class, to use the bathroom. In reality, I went in there to smoke. As a matter of fact, I never actually used the bathroom at school. I would hold it from the time I left in the morning till I came home in the afternoon. Otherwise, I was a good student and considered responsible.

I have 5 teenagers and would not consider any of them responsible and always willing to do the right thing. They'll get away with anything they can get away with. It isn't that I haven't tried to teach them, I have, but it seems to be the nature of the beast.

But, I see your point. If someone needs to go, they should be able to go. Maybe each classroom could have a small board or something that a student could take when they have to leave, that would work as a bathroom pass. That way, only one student at a time would be out of any classroom, so the teachers would be able to keep track of who left and when. Then the schools would have to have bathroom monitors so the students wouldn't be in there smoking and ruining things for everyone else.

The only other solution I can think of is to have a bathroom in each classroom, like they do in preschool.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invertedsphere View Post
Such a job is a fantasy, and if you are alluding to the idea that I am suggesting that young people in school use that approach, you are mistaken. Education is necessary for a literate community able to innovate. When students are treated as though they are prisoners who obey the rules out of fear of punishment, rather than fear of what distraction they may bestow upon their fellows, it's rather difficult to view the educational environment as a source of empowerment. If students are given more respect and encouraged to take care of their bodies, we would see a general increase in productivity that outweighs whatever short-term decreases there may be. Some students will completely abuse the privilege, and they will be dealt with accordingly, perhaps expelled so they may no longer provide distraction for the rest of the students. The majority of students, however, truly do wish to succeed in life and do cherish the opportunity to learn, and they will respect the privilege because they understand that fundamental respect as a tool for their success.
I am not a proponent of public schools, or public schooling, and how they are run. There are a few things that have to be pointed out. As you said the job I put forth does not exist, it's a fantasy. So let's look in theory at what schools should do.

1. Educate children with basic knowledge: reading, writing, arithmetic and science, and possibly computer science.
2. Acclimate children about schedules.
3. Prepare children for the work place.

The majority of jobs in this country have 2 15 minute breaks a day where workers get a drink, a snack, and relieve themselves. These breaks are in addition to their lunch time. They do not create the schedules for lunch and breaks themselves it's created for them. Adult workers are told when they can stop working and most supervisors will not make exceptions to the schedule except in cases of a medical necessity.

Look at number three in the above list. Using the facilities either between classes or, in the case of grade or grammar school children asking to use the facilities, is part of preparation for the work force. A child's job is to get an education, not worry about if the teacher or those in authority respect him/her. Their job is to pay attention, study and assimilate into their brain the knowledge teachers share with them. Respect, self confidence and self worth is taught by parents at home not teachers. And the use of the bathroom by students is not some civil right that deserves non-violent non-cooperation.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:40 AM
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Put my vote in the "against this crap" box. From what I understand many or most of the inner city schools and near city schools are out of control as it is. Teachers need more support and empowerment, not less... just my opinion.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:31 PM
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AzLoneRider,

The jobs you speak of where people only have two 15-minute breaks to drink water and use the restroom, indeed they exist, but they are not the only jobs that exist, and they are not the vast majority. The world is far bigger than you're making it out to be. Just because such jobs exist does not mean that that is "just the way it's supposed to be," as there are many jobs to choose from, so it is not necessary to get prepared for a certain set of standards that we can choose for or against anyway. Forcing children through that dance is unreasonable because the inability to choose whether or not to go to school does not equate to the ability to choose your job.

You speak as though the workforce is supposed to be a slave culture, as though employees are lowly servants compared to their god-like managers. Sadly, there are a lot of workers who feel the same way as you. Many employers make these kinds of inhumane decisions for the sake of increasing the economic efficiency of their company, but that doesn't mean that it is actually necessary, it just means it's possible. If you do a quick search on a search engine, you will find countless tails of adult employees complaining about inhumane treatment at the workplace due to a lack adequate time for the restroom, even with those two 15-minute breaks you talk about. If people would stop laying down like dogs and realize they have teeth, asserting their rights instead of asking for them, both employees and employers would better understand their boundaries and find policies that foster good physical and mental health, instead of abusing the employee like running a car on half of its oil "because we can." Just imagine how higher the morale would be in a given company, and how much higher the quality of the work would be if employees gave themselves proper respect. Would the work be more expensive? Possibly, but it wouldn't matter if so much of society wasn't so bent on cheaper-faster as a means of success.

The students should be concerned as to whether or not they are being respected by the people they are giving authority to. Would you apply to a job where your employer doesn't respect you?
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Mom5farmboys Mom5farmboys is offline
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AzLoneRider,



The students should be concerned as to whether or not they are being respected by the people they are giving authority to. Would you apply to a job where your employer doesn't respect you?
As a parent I am more concerned that my children respect their teachers, employers, all adults.

Respect is earned, when children do what is expected of them, they will be respected. When an employee does what they are expected/hired to do they will also be respected. There will always be bosses that don't deserve respect, but I believe it is mainly because they were never taught to respect others.
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