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  #21  
Old 03-31-2011, 12:04 AM
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Tim Horton Male Tim Horton is offline
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UFF-DAH...................
A 28ga. revolver.

I suppose they would have trouble with that. If the barrel were less than 18" it would be a short barrel shotgun. If it were rifled, the 28ga. is over .5" diameter. (.550" diameter)

The 32ga. is listed as .5" diameter. That should be good to go. Or would it ?

Would it make a difference if it were black powder loaded shells ?

Wyo
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  #22  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rice paddy daddy View Post
They have run into problems with the Feds on this. It seems to fall under the definition of a short barrel shotgun. The project has been put on hold for the time being. The 45 gets around this by having a rifled barrel and more or less being classified as a regular handgun that can also fire shotgun rounds.


They have worked it out with BATFE (within the past 2 weeks) and have the okay to proceed with manufacture import and distribution. Several shotshell makers are well into load development, I understand FEDERAL is working on a really zippy #1 Buck load.

I'm sure you've heard they've gotten approval for a "MARE'S LEG" (Yep just like Steve McQueen's im WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE) in .45/.410 also branded with the "judge" name. Now this one really intrigues me! Because its got a STOCK! Now it maybe a tiny stock cut off right behind the piatol grip but its got a stock! This is inconsistent with other technical rulings they've made that would tend to put it into SBR under NFA. So I'm eager to see if that one stands.

The 28 gauge is not all that complicated. 28 is ABOUT .50 CAL so I expect its chambers will accept something between .480 Ruger through .500 S & W. The gun is a big honker and longer barreled.
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  #23  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Wyobuckaroo View Post
UFF-DAH...................
A 28ga. revolver.

I suppose they would have trouble with that. If the barrel were less than 18" it would be a short barrel shotgun. If it were rifled, the 28ga. is over .5" diameter. (.550" diameter)

The 32ga. is listed as .5" diameter. That should be good to go. Or would it ?

Would it make a difference if it were black powder loaded shells ?

Wyo

Look at your facts, .550 OKAY remember that second 5 is HUNDREDTHS of an inch. Remember operating pressure of a GA is low 10-12k at the most, Remember the "projectile" s maleable it can be compressed 5 hundredths of an inch is nothing for a shotgun choke.

Groove dia of .500 S & W which operates at 55k is .500 BORE is about .495 still well within choking dia for a 28 ga. .500 Linebaugh and .50 BMG are .510 and .500 respectively. Even less choke if you go Linbaugh all depends on which way you can make the chambering work out, I'm not a machhinist (although I'd love to learn the skill)

In any case .500 Linebaugh and 28 ga are BOTH approved "sporting purpose" cartridges, puts BATFE in something of a quandry, no?
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  #24  
Old 03-31-2011, 10:13 AM
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The American Rifleman had an article several years back on making .45ACP shot shells from .308 - .30-06 family of shells, for those that reload.
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  #25  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gunsmoke View Post

I'm sure you've heard they've gotten approval for a "MARE'S LEG" (Yep just like Steve McQueen's im WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE) in .45/.410 also branded with the "judge" name. Now this one really intrigues me! Because its got a STOCK! Now it maybe a tiny stock cut off right behind the piatol grip but its got a stock! This is inconsistent with other technical rulings they've made that would tend to put it into SBR under NFA. So I'm eager to see if that one stands.
The ruling on this was it was the original was made by cutting down a rifle, whereas the replica was made from the beginning as a pistol. Your government in action.
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  #26  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by keydl View Post
The American Rifleman had an article several years back on making .45ACP shot shells from .308 - .30-06 family of shells, for those that reload.
FWIW; Yes I remember that well. The point is to make .45 ACP shotshells that will cycle 1911s and other semi and full autos. It's an intriguing intellectual exercise and I guess it could be fun but to me it seems to be a whole lot of work for a solution in search of a proble,.

RCBS still makes the special die set although it is NOT a stock item stictly custom and priced accordingly.

The resulting cartridges use a .410 shot cup to contain a substantial charge of your chosen shot.

I imagine the resulting rounds could be quite effective.

For ME, I don't find it all that important to have an ACP shot caertridge that cycles in semi or full autos. I'll stick with my ACP revolvers, Colt CCI shot caps, #8 nickle plated shot and full moon clips
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  #27  
Old 04-08-2011, 07:30 AM
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Must have been earlier - It used an over powder wad and an over shot card sealed with wax and was pretty hot with a little leading.

I rode fence for my granddad and used a 1911 instead of a levergun like most pf the other hands. I made 3 shells and they collected 5 rattlesnakes and a good number of rabbits and sage hen for lunch. There were no dies, drill out a washer to .454 and taper it to get the shell to chamber and cut to length to eject. I never got them to feed from the mag but they would fit in the mag, just jam halfway in the chamber. Muzzle down shake it and the round would drop in so that is all that I made. Pattern was around 10 in at 8 feet.
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  #28  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keydl View Post
Must have been earlier - It used an over powder wad and an over shot card sealed with wax and was pretty hot with a little leading.

I rode fence for my granddad and used a 1911 instead of a levergun like most pf the other hands. I made 3 shells and they collected 5 rattlesnakes and a good number of rabbits and sage hen for lunch. There were no dies, drill out a washer to .454 and taper it to get the shell to chamber and cut to length to eject. I never got them to feed from the mag but they would fit in the mag, just jam halfway in the chamber. Muzzle down shake it and the round would drop in so that is all that I made. Pattern was around 10 in at 8 feet.
Wow that pretty good for 3 shells, (sorry I couldn't resist).

I guess I would have to question the practicality of a .45 apc shot shell, as even the .38 CCi's are only effective at about 10ft.
This is true even with a .410 derringer and short barrelled 'Judges" from what I have seen while trying them out on a range for patterning.

Good snake gun....
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  #29  
Old 04-09-2011, 12:26 AM
StatHaldol StatHaldol is offline
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We live on a lake in northeast Louisiana. We keep a 38 revolver with CCI shot for cottonmouths. It's perfect for the job!
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  #30  
Old 04-09-2011, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by keydl View Post
Must have been earlier - It used an over powder wad and an over shot card sealed with wax and was pretty hot with a little leading.

I rode fence for my granddad and used a 1911 instead of a levergun like most pf the other hands. I made 3 shells and they collected 5 rattlesnakes and a good number of rabbits and sage hen for lunch. There were no dies, drill out a washer to .454 and taper it to get the shell to chamber and cut to length to eject. I never got them to feed from the mag but they would fit in the mag, just jam halfway in the chamber. Muzzle down shake it and the round would drop in so that is all that I made. Pattern was around 10 in at 8 feet.
You are correct. There were actually two (at least) Rifleman Articles. The original article raised the issue then some years later there was another article about RCBS making the special die set. I don't know if it was an idea pursued independantly by Fred Hunington or if someone brought the project to him as a custom die set order and he decided to offer it.

The die set used trimmed .308 cases to make something that looked similar to a blank cartridge of ACP OAL. And used a trimmed 1/2 oz .410 shotcup to carry the shot charge.
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  #31  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:35 AM
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I have been doing a lot of reading through the old posts these past few wet and raining days here. I do not remember the NRA article specifically, but I do remember an article about .45 ACP shot shells being used by the "tunnel rats" in Vietnam and room clearing operations using a Thompson SMG, also in Vietnam.

These were not the standard 7 1/2, 8, 9 or 12 size shot encountered in commercial shot shells for hand guns. I don't have any before me right now, but #12 shot is in the .22 &.22 WMR, IIRC and #9 is in the .38/.40/9mm/.45 ACP I think. [I usually buy 5 boxes at the time because we are over run with Copperheads and Water Moccasins with an occasional Rattle Snake thrown in for good measure.] I looked for the article and may have over looked it being in a hurry, but again IIRC the presumed CIA issued .45 ACP shot shells used in Vietnam were in unmarked plain vanilla packaging and the shells themselves were void of any markings also. A box and some shells were photographed with photos included in the article. And the shells were loaded with # 7 1/2 shot with a single buck shot crimped in the mouth of the aluminum case, again speaking from memory. I am sure I still have the article, but we made a lot of changes last year which require boxing things and placing them in storage while the changes were in progress. We still have things in some boxes and have quite a number of items missing in actions as it were and we are still looking for a number of items too!

Prior to these aluminum case .45 ACP shells there had been paper .45 ACP shot shells used by the military, but because of moisture their performance over all was fairly dismal.

The article concluded with a small discussion of RCBS making a set of dies which copied these .45 ACP shot shells used in Vietnam using .308/.243/.270/.25-06/.30-06 brass or any other similar cartridge. They did go on to point our .308 brass performed the best since the base grove in the .308 brass was the closest in diameter to that of the .45 ACP.

I am remembering this article dating from the late 70's or early 80's, regardless of the exact date it has been thirty years or more I strongly suspect. I order a set of the RCBS dies required, which was actually two sets of dies by purchase and cost, but in all reality it was just one larger than normal reloading set. The first set was to form and trim the brass being used. The second set was for actually loading the formed and trimmed brass, but they came in two separate boxes and were sold as two separate sets of reloading dies. The dies were about $75 - 80 for each set. Fairly expensive back in the late 70's or early 80's but I immediately wanted the dies, after reading said article. I have never had any complaints about the .45 ACP shot shells performance on creepy crawlies. I also use #12 shot in my shot shells as someone else mentioned. I have never used .410 wads either in the formed brass shot shells for the .45 ACP. I got a mechanic friend to purchased (I reimbursed him naturally) me a Blue Point Gasket Punch Set (hole cutters actually for cutting bolt holes going through a shop made gasket) off the Snap-on Salesman the next time the Snap-on truck made its regular stop where he worked and I cut my own cardboard wads to cover the powder (separate the powder from shot) and a second wad to cover the shot before the roll crimp was performed to hold the wad in place over the shot. My own cut wads performed very satisfactory in every aspect of their use, and were probably less than 1/4 the thickness of a .410 wad combined, which left more space for shot inside the brass case.

I never use the dies any more. Fast forward twelve to fifteen years give or take a couple of years and CCI introduced their aluminum .45 ACP shot shells. The effort to form, trim and load my own .45 ACP shot shells was not that complicated, BUT the rifle brass was more valuable to me as rifle brass than as .45ACP shot shells. But worse was the fact recovery of the .45 ACP formed and trimmed brass for the shot shells was at best a 50/50 proposition, and often times the recovery was less than 50%. Those were unacceptable numbers to me, so I now purchase the CCI .45 ACP shot shells and find their performance quite acceptable. I actually preferred the Remington .45 brass ACP shot shells over the CCI Aluminum shot shells, because the Remington brass ones were very easily re-loaded when/if found, whereas the CCI aluminum ones are not. But I have not been able to locate any Remington brass .45 ACP shot shells in a long time now. I guess Remington quit manufacturing their .45 ACP shot shells. I was recently told the .45 Winchester Magnum cases ran through the old RCBA forming die almost perfectly duplicates the Remington .45 ACP shot shells. Once formed then the .45 Winchester Magnum brass can be reloaded into shot shells for the .45 ACP. I intend to purchase some .45 Winchester Magnum brass and see if this really works. If it does, the old RCBS .45 ACP shot shell dies may come out of mothballs, permanently.

I shoot snakes, like I heard it best to shoot giants. Two to the chest and one to the head and the jolly green giant tumbles down dead. Well not exactly, but I did learn a long time ago the best method for killing a snake, not coiled is to shoot them mid section. Ninety percent of the time they will pull into a coil, then shoot them twice more and they are buzzard bait. Shot shells have escalated in price just like all other ammunition these past few years, but for the elimination of venomous snakes, they are still very cheap medicine in my book.

Last edited by Jjr; 03-23-2015 at 02:19 AM.
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  #32  
Old 04-07-2015, 01:28 AM
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The above information was from memory. I found the article: Malaya Loads - Shot Shells That Work, from the .45 Auto Handbook, Volume 2, Number 1, 1982.

After 33 years have past my memory did fail me just a little. To make a couple of corrections, the article referenced above did not have any photographs of the Vietnam era shot shells. The article states, "The only documented examples known to exist in the original packaging, attributed to the CIA, are in the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. Those in the FBI collection are boxed 20 rounds each in "sterile" packaging without manufacturers code or lot number. Cases are head stamped "Sako" with red primer sealant. The mimeographed label simply states, "20 cartridges, Cal .45 Special-Purpose."

Details on the loaded round stated it contained 28 number 4 shot and one "00" buck shot crimped in the end, suggesting they were intended for something a little larger than Howler monkeys.
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2015, 05:53 PM
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I was recently told the .45 Winchester Magnum cases ran through the old RCBA forming die almost perfectly duplicates the Remington .45 ACP shot shells. Once formed then the .45 Winchester Magnum brass can be reloaded into shot shells for the .45 ACP. I intend to purchase some .45 Winchester Magnum brass and see if this really works. If it does, the old RCBS .45 ACP shot shell dies may come out of mothballs, permanently.
We made a quick trip down to the country place Wednesday to take some things to a friend and take care of a little business on the way back Thursday. (We had to go for the business part, so made the trip do double duty.) On the way down to the friends place, near dusk, I killed a Timber Rattler. He was not a long snake, but he was plenty big enough to really put the hurt on a fellow.

When we got home Thursday afternoon 500 pieces of new Starline Winchester Magnum brass had been delivered. My old RCBS .45 Shot shell reloading die box had one shot shell formed from a LC '82 MATCH round inside with the forming and reloading dies. Although I had to purchase both a forming die set and a shot shell reloading die set there are only five pieces total so I put it all in one die box, in order to keep the entire set together.

Comparing the formed shot shell with the virgin Starline Winchester Magnum brass, I find the Winchester Magnum brass gives a reading of being about .0014 shorter than the formed shot shell. Forming the Winchester Magnum brass into a shot shell will possibly shorten it just a few thousands more, but the shot shells formed from rifle brass are thicker so the internal capacity may not vary that much overall. Once I start forming the Starline Winchester Magnum brass into shot shells I will check the length of the formed Starline shot shell and update on it later.

We are going back this next week for several days stay in the country, so I intend to form and load a hundred of the formed Starline shot shells to have while we are there, since the snakes are out.

I have no doubt about their performance, but like to see with my own eyes some things.
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2015, 12:27 AM
Sacalait50 Male Sacalait50 is offline
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During the summer I carry one .38 shot shell in the old S&W 642 for poisonous snakes, the other four are JHP.
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