BHM Forum      
Subscribe to Backwoods Home Magazine print or Kindle editions
Office Hours Momday - Friday  8 am - 5 pm Pacific 1-800-835-2418

Facebook   YouTube   Twitter
Follow Us!



 
Backwoods Home Magazine, self-reliance, homesteading, off-grid

Features
 Home Page
 Current Issue
 Article Index
 Author Index
 Previous Issues
 Newsletter
 Letters
 Humor
 Free Stuff
 Recipes
 Print Classifieds

General Store
 Ordering Info
 Subscriptions
 Kindle Subscriptions
 ePublications
 Anthologies
 Books
 Back Issues
 Help Yourself
 All Specials
 Classified Ad

Advertise
 Web Site Ads
 Magazine Ads

BHM Blogs
 Behind The Scenes
 Massad Ayoob
 Ask Jackie Clay
 Claire Wolfe
 Where We Live
 Dave on Twitter
Retired Blogs
 Oliver Del Signore
 David Lee
 Energy Questions
 Bramblestitches

Quick Links
 Home Energy Info
 Jackie Clay
 Ask Jackie Online
 Dave Duffy
 Massad Ayoob
 John Silveira
 Claire Wolfe

Forum / Chat
 Forum/Chat Info
 Enter Forum
 Lost Password

More Features
 Meet The Staff
 Contact Us/
 Change of Address
 Write For BHM
 Privacy Policy

Retired Features
 Country Moments
 Feedback
 Links
 Radio Show





  
 

BHM's Homesteading & Self-Reliance Forum
Posting requires Registration and the use of Cookies-enabled browser.

  Who's In The Chat Room

Go Back   BHM Forum > Homesteading > Energy > Hydro/Wind/Wood/Geothermal

Hydro/Wind/Wood/Geothermal And other types of alternative energy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-23-2011, 03:01 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
I will say, however, seeing as we have many many Amish friends and Amish relatives that the Amish *do not* do their business with Lehman Hardware unless it's to sell them something. The Lehman's ( who are liberal Mennonites, not even conservative ones) have made their living off of using the "amish" name and catering to people who have put the Amish on a pedastal and are the yuppie crowd that can afford to buy their wares.
Do you believe the Amish make these stoves then, and everything else they sell in their stores? If so, then I don't what to say to that, because they don't. Much of the stuff they carry is purchased from elsewhere, and even some of their food goods are repackaged. Nevertheless, they mostly carry quality goods and offer it at good prices so, particularly when the options are paying high shipping charges on very heavy items, I'd rather buy it directly from them.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.
Reply With Quote

  #22  
Old 12-23-2011, 09:21 PM
MontanaWoodsmen Male MontanaWoodsmen is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 6
Default Bakers Oven

Merry Christmas!!!

Let me share with you folks the finer details of this stove.
I have installed many of these stoves and have first hand knowledge.

The Bakers Choice (BC) is manufactured in Canada by Pioneer Stoves.
They also make the Maid and the Princess.

The two sons broke off and started Suppertime Stoves and they are in KY.
They only make the Maid and Princess. They bring the BC in from Canada.

Both companies are great folks to deal with and really care about their customers being satisfied.

As far as the Bakers Choice, it is also known as the "Missionary Stove" as it was designed and built for use around the world, by Anabaptist Missionaries.

It is a very utilitarian cookstove that is designed to function well for minimal cost. The stove is painted flat black, as is the oven. The back-splash and shelf are Porcelain Enamel. Which means most women do not care for this stove as it is very difficult to keep clean and looking nice without a fresh paint job once a year.
Lots of Mountain Men and folks with remote cabins go for this stove as it is the biggest bang for the buck. The stove will heat a well insulated 2000 sq ft cabin in Alaska.
Unlike the fella with the Waterford Stanley, this stove can be fired up from 50 below zero without any worries of the stove cracking in half, which is very likely with any bolted together stove.
This is a very heavily built welded steel stove that can also burn coal. That is what says a lot, coal burns very hot and only a well built stove can handle coal. Welded steel stove will heat and expand as a unit, as well as contract and cool down as a single unit. Bolted together stoves are a bunch of individual parts expanding and contracting individually. It was the only way to build a stove 100 yrs ago, but now is obsolete, in this Mountain Man's opinion.

As far as where to make a purchase of this cookstove, don't forget Obadiah's Woodstove's you'll find a link to them right here at Backwoods's Link Page. http://www.backwoodshome.com/linkspage.html (bottom of page under,Wood/Coal/Corn Stoves / Water Heaters)

Obadiah's is honest, carry the largest selection of Cookstove's and Wood-fired Heating Appliances in the business. www.woodstoves.net, www.discountstoves.net www.cookstoves.net

Best of all they believe in service after the sale, and they really know their stuff. They have even posted over 100 videos on You Tube dealing with everything from Re-ling Chimneys to Moving Cookstoves. Search You Tube for "Obadiah's Woodstoves".
With over 32 yrs in the business, they must get better pricing, the prices are hard to beat. They are also one of the oldest online Hearth retailers. They started online in 1999. So they have a long track record already and will probably be around for many more years.

Lehman's Hardware is also a great company to deal with, they have been around even longer, have a great selection of stuff for guys like me, but they are not stove specialist like Obadiah's is, so they don't have the technical expertise.....

Don't forget Antique Stoves they also sell Pioneer Stoves and the Bakers Choice. Very knowledgeable also, all they do is stoves. Probably one of the most knowledgeable stove companies out there, when it comes to cookstoves. They have been around too over 30 yrs, so they have a good track record of happy campers.

The other guy mentioned is the "Johnny Come Lately" They seem like they trying to copy Lehman's Hardware.
They have made many statements like being the original "Margin Stoves Dealer" which is not true, Antique Stoves is and always has been selling Margin Stoves before S&M was even in business.
When someone is not honest in their claims, it kinda makes ya wonder......

So I'd stay with Obadiah's Lehman's, or Antique Stoves and you'll have a greater chance of having a good buying experience.

PS.. don't forget the Bakers Choice has a 7" oval flue collar and will need an adapter to go from oval to round, this adapter must be offset to clear the back-splash. That is the biggest gripe I have about this stove.

Bottom-line, if your tight on bucks and need the biggest bang, this is your stove. If you can afford a few more bucks, get a Kitchen Queen, or a Pioneer Princess, you'll be happier in the long run as your stove will look better in the long run.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-23-2011, 09:37 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

MontanaWoodsmen, thank you for that. I knew they looked like very good stoves, and the fact that at least two Amish that I know of here in northern Maine are using them attested to their being suitable for this climate. The Pioneer Princess is what I have decided on, and will have one by spring.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-24-2011 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-24-2011, 02:13 AM
MNfarmlady Female MNfarmlady is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 33
Default

Wow! Thank you Montana Woodsmen for all the info. You have given me a lot to think over. The other stoves you mentioned are bigger than the Baker's Choice, but I see that they can sit almost 10 inches closer to my wall than the BC can. That will make a difference too, hadn't noticed that before.
I had forgotten that I had talked to someone from Obadiah's about 4 years ago, and they were most helpful. I think I will be calling them with some questions after the new year.
Oldtimer-thanks also for the info. I hadn't thought of talking to the Amish around here. My DD knows some of them, I will give her an assignment.
I knew I could get some answers here that I needed.
Anne
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-24-2011, 04:55 AM
MontanaWoodsmen Male MontanaWoodsmen is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 6
Default Reducing The Clearances To The Rear Of A Cookstove

My pleasure, I have had the good fortune to have grown up with the Amish. Most are great folk and willing to help us "English". But for the most part they are just regular folk, put their britches on just like you and I.......one leg at a time.....

I have learned a great deal from them, they live the "Simple Life" that so many think they are seeking, until they find out how much work it actually is.....then they find out, things aint really all that simple.....
Me, I like using modern technology when applicable, to save labor, but keep things as simple and dependable, as possible.

As far as the rear clearances for your new cookstove, check out the info Obadiah's posted on You Tube on "Reducing Clearances To Combustibles" http://www.youtube.com/user/WoodyCha...o+combustibles

They take a cookstove and install it like you see in the pictures, really tight clearances. I guess they did it to show that you can reduce clearances, safely, if you do it properly. They then they show you how they did it, step by step. Pretty cool, far better than burning someone's house down.

They also make Heat Shields for the back of cookstoves, to not only reduce the clearances, but they increase the convection properties of the stove and convert the wasted radiant heat from the rear of the stove, into a more useful convection heat.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WoodyCha...y=heat+shields

I guess they are also firefighters and build specialized emergency firefighting equipment, so they know how to build things.
http://www.wildfirefighters.com/
Check out the equipment they have!

They may be able to help you get a heat shield for your stove.
We have installed a few stoves with the heat shields and they really do work well. Slap on the shield and install the stove, we used double wall black chimney and the clearances to the back of the stove was 6"
Really made the customer happy that we did not have to mess with their log walls. When I tested the wall later when we had the stove as hot as we could get it, the wall was only 90 degrees! On the inside of the shield facing the back of the stove, I was getting readings of 180 degrees, so it cut the radiant heat transfer by half.
I am also a firefighter, so that makes me very happy!

Anyhow, thought I'd share that with you. It's pretty tough to install some of these stoves when they require 3' from the rear of them. Who has that kind of space?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-24-2011, 12:16 PM
oldtimer oldtimer is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: great plains
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,577
Default

add
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfander View Post
Do you believe the Amish make these stoves then, and everything else they sell in their stores? If so, then I don't what to say to that, because they don't. Much of the stuff they carry is purchased from elsewhere, and even some of their food goods are repackaged. Nevertheless, they mostly carry quality goods and offer it at good prices so, particularly when the options are paying high shipping charges on very heavy items, I'd rather buy it directly from them.
Friend,
I am sorry for whatever burr has gotten under your saddle.

If you want an Amish made stove, Suppertime is an Amish made stove. Most of the stoves Lehmans offers are not Amish made. I am just pointing out that though I am sure some stores offer the same stoves for a higher price than Lehman's, Lehman caters to the yuppies.

I have numerous Amish friends and relatives who live within a few miles of the Lehman store and they've never been in it. It's a nice little pipe dream some people have of the quaint Amish buying from this store in OH that "caters to the Amish".

The Amish are sensible enough to have their own stores where they offer things at much more reasonable prices than you will find most places. The Amish have an uncanny ability to find things that no one else is able to locate anymore.

Whenever we return east, we always stop at the real Amish stores for bargains. And yes, you are correct, Amish buy and repackage much they do not manufacture. I don't think too many people would expect the Amish to make the cornflakes they sell in bulk at reasonable prices. However they have some how found the connections to find where they can buy this stuff in bulk.

Many Amish have mail order businesses like: Erb's; The Yoder Bargain Store and E & R Sales. Then there are the "Amish" mail order businesses that are not Amish owned but cater to the actual Amish such as Spector's and Gohn Brothers. But the Lehman store is not widely used by the Amish as they can get things cheaper elsewhere's as well as things they would use. Much in the Lehman catalog would not be found in Amish homes but it's a good source for these things for people outside an Amish community and who are not Amish.

It's a riot how people capitalize off the name "Amish". "Amish made furniture" etc. etc.. I have never found any actual Amish who capitalize off the use of the word. You don't find people going around saying: Baptist made stoves, Methodist made biscuits, or Catholic made sweaters do you?

And if the Amish are running a store themselves, why shouldn't they have every right to buy and resell from wherever and whomever they want just like anyone else? I have never seen or known them try to deceive anyone into thinking that they make everything they sell. Good night, I know many Amish who sell Honda engines but don't think there's any Amish or anyone else for that matter who would attempt to get anyone to think that a Honda engine is Amish made.

Now at the risk of offending anyone any more on the subject of this original post, I'm out of here.

Again, if I have offended anyone, my deepest apologies.

Last edited by oldtimer; 12-24-2011 at 12:17 PM. Reason: add icon
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-24-2011, 02:56 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
If you want an Amish made stove, Suppertime is an Amish made stove. Most of the stoves Lehmans offers are not Amish made. I am just pointing out that though I am sure some stores offer the same stoves for a higher price than Lehman's, Lehman caters to the yuppies.
Oltimer, I know that you are highly invested in being perceived as an expert, and I wouldn't take that from you. Having used wood stoves throughout your life may well make you an expert at using whatever type of stove you have owned, but it does not make you an expert on wood stoves in general.

My dad drove Fords. I don't know that he ever drove a car that wasn't a Ford. Even his tractor was a Ford. Certainly, something led to that brand loyalty and, since he was a pretty reasonable man, whatever it was, it was probably something sensible, but nothing in his many years of driving Ford cars, trucks and tractors made him an expert on Chevrolets, Toyotas, or Volkswagens.

In this particular thread, your references were to the wrong stove, the Baker's Oven rather than the Baker's Choice, which was the subject of this thread. Your references to the Australian climate let me know that you were talking about the wrong stove, so my interest was in making sure that MNfarmlady wasn't misled into rejecting a perfectly good stove for the wrong reasons.

As MontanaWoodsmen has attested to, the Baker's Choice is a good product, not at all unsuitable for Minnesota weather, but there are better stoves along the same product line, the Pioneer Princess being one of them. These are not, as you have stated, inferior products. They look to be better suited for cold climates than the Stanley model you preferred. I haven't seen a Stanley model stove in action, or even in the store, however, so I'll reserve my judgement on that.

Is it the best stove on the market? Probably not, but it is one that I can both afford and find locally, both of which are important to me. Will it serve adequately as both a heating and cooking stove? I think it will, but am not willing to argue that until I've actually tried it. Nevertheless, as I pointed out in an earlier post, if indeed I find that it does not provide adequate heat, I can always add a small heating stove to the other end of the cabin later, and that's a lot more efficient than buying two stoves at the same time, only to find that I didn't need both of them.

Your many comments about the Amish lead me to believe that you are also invested in being seen as an expert on the Amish. I don't care whether you view me as being an expert in anything, but I do generally know what I am talking about, and I don't pretend to be experts on people or things that I have had only a passing acquaintance with.

Nevertheless, I grew up near the Amish. I am myself Mennonite. My father did business with the Amish regularly, and I now live near a couple of Amish colonies, and have myself done business with them on a regular basis. I have driven them places, and have personal relationships with some of them, as far as visiting with them in their homes. I have also read several books by and about the Amish, and other Anabaptist groups. Does this make me an expert on the Amish? Of course not; the Amish wouldn't even claim to be experts on the Amish.

You make a lot of statements about the Amish, as if you are arguing points with me that I have never made. Yes, the Amish make great use of LP gas, but then I have never said that they didn't. Here in Maine, perhaps due to the easy availability of wood, the ones that I am familiar with have wood cooking and heating stoves, although I've seen some LP gas stoves in use there as well. Gas lighting is common, as are gas refrigerators; and I haven't been in a single Amish home that made much use of candles or kerosene lamps.

I don't care what type of stove you use. You can use Sterno if you'd like and I wouldn't argue the point with you but I have also used wood stoves and, more importantly, I have researched this, and have seen the type of stove that I've decided on in action. Contrary to statements you have made to the contrary, this was in an Amish home.

I have no stake whatsoever in Lehman's and couldn't care less what their theology is. What matters to me is that they also offer quality merchandise at reasonable prices. If I want the convenience of being able to order something online, I might shop at Lehman's, and have. But if I am looking for something substantial, or happen to be passing by the place, as I do more often lately than previously, I would rather shop at the Amish stores, because they offer much of the same stuff, and usually at better prices, plus there is the advantage that I can take it home with me.

In the spring, when I go to buy my stove, I'll ask, to be sure, but I won't be at all surprised to find that they do indeed order their stoves from Lehman's. By that, I am not implying that every Amish storekeeper in the country orders his stoves from Lehman's, but only that the Amish store that I am doing business with very likely does. Oddly enough, it is frequently cheaper to buy a product from a reseller than from the manufacturer. I have a couple of Primos wildlife cameras, and it would be significantly more expensive for me to buy them from Primos than it is for me to buy them from Amazon.com. In this case, the Amish store offers the stove for roughly the same price as I could buy the same stove from other resellers online, except that I would have to pay substantial shipping charges if I were to buy it online.

Now, if the Amish were to sell a large volume of these stoves, they could probably get a better deal from the manufacturer than from a reseller such as Lehman's, but they only sell a few of them a year because most people with camps would prefer to buy a used stove from someone they know, or from Uncle Henry's. The reason that I tend to believe they order from Lehman's is that I had to wait for them to come back to the office one day so I was browsing around their break area, which is not physically separated from the office, and there was a Lehman's catalog there. If, as you would imply, no Amish person in the world has ever ordered anything from Lehman's, I wouldn't expect to find a Lehman's catalog there.

You really can't make such generalized statements about the Amish and be accurate. Each Amish colony is independent, and may do many things differently. Amish families are, like families everywhere, not clones of every other Amish family. Individuals within a family are whole people, as well; and while there is much that they may have in common, they are not alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
And if the Amish are running a store themselves, why shouldn't they have every right to buy and resell from wherever and whomever they want just like anyone else? I have never seen or known them try to deceive anyone into thinking that they make everything they sell.
There again, I never implied that there was anything wrong with it. In your comments about the Baker's Choice stove, you seemed to think that it was important to clarify that they were not made by the Amish, so I thought that it might be helpful if I were to let you know that they don't make everything they sell in their stores.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-24-2011 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-24-2011, 05:19 PM
MontanaWoodsmen Male MontanaWoodsmen is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 6
Default Well Said!

We'll I must say that was very well said, KFlander

One of the reasons I never stay very long on most forums is all the bickering that usually takes place over just helping folks.

It can be very difficult for some to be able to express themselves in writing, so somethings tend to get misunderstood, I know I have a problem with that myself.....

Some consider themselves as expert, most have their opinions, some based on fact, some based in conjecture.
But all in all, most folks are just trying to help.

Let's all try to keep that in mind here, we are all in this together folks, the sooner we realize that and begin working together in a spirit of co-operation, we'll all be less stressed.

Old Timer was just trying to help, in his own way, the same as I am.
He may just not be able to communicate that as well as I think he'd like to.
I may not agree with his choice in Cookstoves, or the fact that no stove can heat, bake and cook equally well. But I see that as indicative that he has never owned the Amish built Kitchen Queen which in this humble Mountain Man's opinion is by far the best Cooking/Heating Stove out there.
There may be a better stove out there, but I have not found it yet.

Let me share with you some info about the various cookstoves I already own and use.

I personally own several cookstoves, a Heartland Oval which is a reproduction new old fashion style stove. Cooks and bakes lousy, heats even worse, (gets 3-4 hr burns) it is a bolted together stove and the most expensive Cookstove I own. My opinion, old fashion stoves are great boat anchors. I will not own another, anyone want to buy it?
I paid $5800 for it and will let it go for $4k band new used about 2 months.
It really looks great, just like what you think a cookstove should look like, but looks are very deceiving.

Next I own a ESSE Ironheart Cooker made in England, at just under $5k this is also a very expensive cookstove. But it works very well as both a heater and a cooker. I can get 12 hr burns out of it, it will heat about 1200 sq ft of well insulated space in Alaska. Great stove, welded steel construction, secondary burn system so it burns clean and efficient. ESSE has been building cookstoves since 1854 and is World Renowned as the Rolls Royce of Cookers. They combine the best aspects of welded steel construction with Cast Iron components that are hung on the stove, stuff like the doors and Cooking Hob. The stove itself is roboticlly welded from steel that has been cut via lasers on a CNC Machine. It is by far the best built stove out there as far as fit/finish and over all quality.

I also own the Bakers Oven from Pecan Engineering, with the Soapstone Surround which makes it the Vermont Bun Baker. Great little welded steel stove, very well built, will heat about 900 sq ft of well insulated space in Alaska. I have owned this stove about 8 yrs. Small firebox and small oven, but it is one of the smallest footprint cookstoves available. Great company, and great little stove. I can get about an 8hr burn from the stove and about 4 hrs. additional heat from the Soapstone.

We also have a Kitchen Queen 380, the smaller one also known as the Cabin Queen. It is an Amish made Cookstove that is revolutionary in the way it burns, heats and bakes. Of all the Amish cookstoves out there, this is the best designed, the best heating, the best baking stove out there.
The KQ 380 can heat 2000 sq ft of well insulated space in Alaska and the KQ 480, about double that. This stove uses convection to heat your home and back your food. It is warmer in the areas furthest away from the stove and cooler in the kitchen where the stove is located. This is the reverse of Radiant Heat which is not very comfortable. The KQ has too many features that it would take pages to describe. It is the type of stove that will continue to plenty surprise you over the next many years. You will continue to love your stove more, the longer you own it. At least in the past 15 yrs, that has been our experience. This stove has never once disappointed me. Perhaps that is why you will never find one for sale used.
In the past 15 yrs. I have never seen one, if someone has to part with their KQ, they usually have a long list of folks who want the stove and are willing to pay top dollar for them.
We get a regular 14 hr burn out of our 380 and our daughter gets 18 hr burns out of her 480. We both burn Pine, Larch and Fir as that is all we have here, contrary to Old Timers experience, you can still get a good burn time with softwoods.

I have also owned the Pioneer Maid, I still have the scars on my forearms from loading the stove, it is top loading only. Good stove if that is all you have, but I did not care that much for it. Pioneer came out with the Princess to compete with the Kitchen Queen's. They did not have a front loading door. I have not burned the Princess yet, but I have some friends that have them. They fella that got one of the earlier models has had lots of issues with latches falling off on the firebox door, the spring falling off on his oven door and a booming noice from expansion and contraction.
He is still happy with his stove because he is a very easy going guy and Suppertime has stood behind the product and send him replacement parts.
I have a friend that has the newer Princess that has had the bugs worked out, they have had zero problems, they were not real happy about the fit and finish compared to my KQ. The welds on the Pioneers are not nearly as nice as those on my KQ. Their kitchen is also far hotter and other areas of the house are far cooler because it is a radiant stove with no convection heating abilities. In spite of this, they still love their Princess as they used to have a Maid and like to be able to load the stove from the front now. They are getting an 8 hr burn with their stoves.

I also own some wood fired boilers and other units here on our Homestead, that I wont get into now.
Here in Montana we are very busy living the simple life which is time consuming chopping wood and plowing snow, let alone everything else that goes with living remote. So we don't care to mess with any stove, more than loading it twice a day, in the AM and the PM. Anymore than that, and it's a hassle.
For most up here, they want big fireboxes and long burn times, so the house is still warm at the end of a long hard work day. We don't get up in the middle of the night to stoke a fire either, if a stove can not maintain an all night burn 10-12 hrs, it is usually pulled out and replaced with something that will....

At any rate, we can all learn from each other, if we'll shut up long enough to listen, but most are more concerned about getting there 2 cents in.

My hope and prayer is that you will all take a moment and look your loved ones in the eyes and tell them that you love them.
Find a lonely stranger and make their day, invite them to sit at your table and share your blessings with those who are less fortunate, this Christmas.
Demonstrate the Greatest Gift ever given. The Birth of Christ. (even though He was born in July or Aug) We can still celebrate the gift....by sharing our gifts...

Christ came and died to give us life and life more abundantly, here on earth, and in the everlasting.
In my 53 yrs here on earth, I guess the biggest lesson I have learned, you can never out give God. You want to be blessed, just try to out give Him, in love and in materials.

He has given us all the greatest gift, His Son.
Maybe if we put as much energy into understanding that simple truth, as we do about other things, we'd all be better off.

Blessing's and warmth, of a heart full of love, joy and peace.
A warm hearth, a warm home, loving family and friends.

Merry CHRIST Mas!!!
From Montana Woodsmen

Psalm 91 (The Secret Place Of The Most High God, The Best Place to Dwell)

Last edited by MontanaWoodsmen; 12-24-2011 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-24-2011, 06:12 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaWoodsmen View Post
One of the reasons I never stay very long on most forums is all the bickering that usually takes place over just helping folks.
Many people have trouble understanding that a correct statement does not necessarily imply that all other statements are incorrect, particularly when it comes to questions of product evaluation.

There are just too many variables to contend with. First of all, we are not always looking for the same results, and when we are, the priorities of one over another may differ from person to person.

I am more than sixty years old and have no children who are likely even to visit my cabin in the woods, let alone live in it, so buying a product that will last generations is of a lower priority to me than it might be for someone else. Certainly, I want to spend my money on a quality product and, to the extent that I can afford to, I am willing to pay more for a quality product. Still, a higher priority for me is to have something that will work well for me over the next twenty or thirty years, and that's perhaps stretching my longevity, especially in a cabin in the woods.

Of high importance to me, in looking for a cooking and heating stove, is that it should work well, be as trouble free as possible, and that I should never have to replace it in my lifetime. Of secondary, but not negligible, importance is that it should look fairly nice, especially if I want my wife to be happy with it. I didn't like the looks of the Stanley model, and the list of features on their web site were insufficient as to sell the product to me, so that was the basis of my comments on that particular stove. Plus, it's probably expensive and I don't know of anyone who sells them locally. Lastly, it was a heating stove and the discussion was about a stove that could serve for both heating and cooking purposes.

Concerns about whether a combination cooking and heating stove will overly heat the building in the summer are lessened by the fact that I intend to construct a summer kitchen. This may not be a possibility or desire for everyone.

Someone suggested a gas stove over a wood stove, and there are pros and cons to both. For me, however, I have a hundred acres of mostly wooded land, which is surrounded by more wooded land, so wood fuel makes sense to me. We probably have enough trees that fall down during the course of a year to keep us in fuel, or at least to go a long ways toward it. In a situation where gas may be difficult to afford or get access to, the availability of wood makes a whole lot of sense to me. This may not be as much of a consideration for everyone, especially if they don't have easy access to wood.

A stove that can burn both wood and coal may be of some advantage because, at least at this point, coal is fairly inexpensive and easily accessible. Where I live, I could have it delivered to my door as long as I order it before the snow comes and my road becomes a snowmobile trail. Others may have no interest whatsoever in burning coal.

Shipping charges can be high for something as heavy as a cooking stove, and I don't have a truck to carry one at the moment, so the ability to buy one from the Amish at a price comparable to any other vendor that I can find is important to me. Plus, while the Amish here don't drive, they have arrangements with a hauler who will not only deliver it to me, but set it up for me at a cost that would be less than what I could arrange for privately. That's very important to me, yet it's a variable that may be of negligible importance to someone else.

This isn't the first thread in which the question of whether one stove can serve as both a cooking stove and a heating stove has come up in, and there are those who will insist that one stove can not do both, yet I haven't heard from anyone who holds that opinion who has tried to do so with a stove that was manufactured for that purpose. Since I haven't done so myself, I can't argue the point, but then it will be easy enough for me to add a heating stove to the other end of the cabin if I find that the first stove isn't doing both tasks adequately, and I would be out nothing but the experience.

I also suspect that some of those who are adamant in their opinion that no one stove can do both are basing their opinions on an assumption that the space to be heated is larger than mine is going to be, and that it might be partitioned into several rooms, each of which will need to be heated. Other than a small sleeping area and a smaller bathroom, my cabin is going to be an open space, which should be easy enough to heat.

I've lived in an open cabin larger than the one that I have now, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which is colder than northern Maine, and know that, as inefficient as a fireplace is as a source of heat, I almost never had to resort to anything other than the fireplace and the wood cooking stove for heat, even in the coldest months of January and February, and this was not a wood cooking stove that was manufactured for the purpose of dual functions. The cabin had an oil heating stove but firing it up would require opening windows in order to keep from being uncomfortably warm.

When you divide a cabin up into different rooms, as houses tend to be, the individual rooms are more difficult to heat from any one heating source. For this reason, and because the walls waste space, we're not doing that.

I could go on, and I suppose I tend to do too much of that. Pretty much everything is argued here, and it's easy to get caught up in it. If I were to say that I prefer Moxie to Coca Cola, the Coca Cola drinkers would be offended and feel the need to defend themselves, and I sometimes do the same thing.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-24-2011 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-25-2011, 04:34 AM
MontanaWoodsmen Male MontanaWoodsmen is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 6
Default So Ya Used To Be A Yupper, Eh, Did, Ya?

Ah that's funny, so ya used be a Yupper Eh, did, ya???

I went to Tech in Houghton/Hancock. Great school, great place.
I loved sailing Lake Superior and hiking up to the Lake in the Clouds.
Now it's Yippy Kia! I sail just South of Glacier National Park.
So are you an old Husky by chance?

Just like folks talk funny in different places, they also have different ideas, mostly because that is what worked for them.
But what works for them, may not work for you.
I understand completely what your saying, been there.
Most folks from really cold places know what really works to make heat.

Sound's like you have everything worked out, the Princess is a great stove and will serve you well for many years, no doubt.

I gave you my two cents worth already and shared my experience.
Getting the stove delivered and set up to is an awful attractive proposal in my book. I put these puppies in for a livin, they aint light.

As I said I'm in your camp, I've done what you are trying to do, no problem, you can even heat your domestic hot water with your cookstove, but that's another story.

My opinion the Kitchen Queen is the better choice, but the Princess, is still a Princess. They are both Royally good stoves!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-25-2011, 05:53 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

One of my older brothers went to Houlton Tech, majoring in forestry. After a career with the US Forest Service, mostly in Minnesota, he's retired and back in the UP now. I went to NMU in Marquette. As for a choice of stoves, the Kitchen Queen was not one of the ones they had at the Amish store. It looks very good though, and I might double check to see if they can get it, depending on price differences. Whichever we get, we'll be getting the hot water reservoir as well. People from warmer climates sometimes think that the goal is to keep the inside temperatures at 70 degrees or higher. When you grow up in a cold weather climate, you know that if it's seventy degrees inside, going outdoors in the winter will be the death of you. This is why I avoided air conditioning while I was in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, as I'd never acclimate to the weather if I kept moving from an air conditioned space to hundred degree temperatures outdoors. Actually, it took me a couple of years to figure that out.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-25-2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-26-2011, 10:27 AM
Ciderman's Avatar
Ciderman Male Ciderman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
add

I have numerous Amish friends and relatives who live within a few miles of the Lehman store and they've never been in it. It's a nice little pipe dream some people have of the quaint Amish buying from this store in OH that "caters to the Amish".
oldtimer you are very right on this. My brother lives near the Amish and deals with them all the time. He says if they want something they go to Lehman's but to the outside buildings and make their deals there. Very seldom will you see them inside Lehman's. The buildings the Amish go into non-Amish are not allowed and that is where the good stuff is. His suggestion is to become friends with the Amish, will their trust and be very honest with them. Then and only then they may allow you to purchase some of the true Amish things as a trade for services. It is alot of work and hassle for what you get.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-26-2011, 04:25 PM
MontanaWoodsmen Male MontanaWoodsmen is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 6
Default Kitchen Queen

Both the KQ and PP are made in the Midwest, Indiana and Kentucky.
So chances are depending on which community your involved with, they should be able to get either stove shipped in for the about same price.

Usally what they'll do is get a few families together that need stoves and place an order. The Freight truck arrives at the lumber, hardware store and they unload them there. The Amish will then come in to town and collect their stove.
The funny part of the Amish is one community will be using Pioneer's another Margin's and another Kitchen Queen's. Very little diversity with the Amish, as that is frowned on......causes a sprint of competitiveness....
It all depends on which cookstove the Bishop is familiar with, on which stoves will be common in your nearest community.

I guess the thing that really baffles me is how so many folks view the Amish, like they are so much better than we are because they are frugal.
Anyone can be frugal and watch their pennies. Doing things the hard way because someone who is a Bishop says you can use a tractor, but you can not have any air in the tires and must use steel wheels and no tires, make no sense to me, anyway you look at it. There are so many things like this that make no sense when your actually living and working amongst them.
Once you win their trust and confidence and you get past the romance of living in Yesterday, it becomes very clear that you can have that lifestyle.
It makes no sense spiritually, or in terms of efficiency. It takes a whole lot more effort on their part to create the same amount of food from an Acre of land, or to build a house. Of course most Amish now use nail guns, electric saws and ride to work in a van. As long as they leave the tools in the van, they are ok. They also are using more mechanical process's in their farming because they are losing so many of their youth. May are not returning to the Amish church at the age of accountability and leaving their heritage behind. Not for an easier life, but one that is not one full of Hypocritical lifestyle..
This kind of behavior is creating a "Hypocritical Thinking" among the Amish, most younger Amish now carry Cell Phones, no matter what the Bishop says.
Some younger Amish no longer see an issue with saying one thing and doing another, it has been a way of life for many.
Many of the old timers wonder, will they survive another Century when the very things that have made their society what it is, integrity, simplicity, honesty, family values, are being undermined just like in ours, but in a different way....
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-26-2011, 04:58 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

The Amish here came from Pennsylvania, mostly. The colony in Smyrna, Maine has been here for quite awhile, but a newly developing colony is in Fort Fairfield, further north. In Pennsylvania, land prices around the established Amish colonies have made it difficult for new families to get a start. Here in Maine, as farm families are abandoning potato farming, the Amish are finding good prices in buying up abandoned farms and regenerating them. There are also colonies of Beechy Amish nearby but I am not familiar with them.

Most of what people believe about the Amish is incorrect, or at least not as rigid as they think. While there are large differences between colonies, since Amish churches have a large degree of independence from one another, within a colony, things are quite a lot alike, although some will have huge, sprawling properties while others may work for Amish owned businesses. Some of them are vary wealthy, while others are not, but they don't flaunt their wealth.

I've been in a few Amish homes, and there are differences in comfort levels. The Amish here don't drive or own cars. Those who farm for a living may own a tractor but they may leave it in the field when they are done working for the day, because driving it back to the house would be a matter of comfort, to avoid having to walk back. Those who farm only for their own sustenance generally use horses, and that's the majority of them here, since their businesses are less agricultural and more into construction, metal roofing, furniture, etc. The family that I am closest to has a furniture shop, which is connected to the house. They use generated (not connected to the grid) electricity in the shop but, as you move from the shop into the warehouse area, and then the residence, that part of the building is not wired. The casual observer might not even notice because the gas lights are operated by a switch, and they have a refrigerator and other of the comforts of home, the only significant difference being that they are not connected to an electrical grid.

As for their choice of stoves, I have only been in a couple of Amish homes since I began thinking about what kind of wood stove to get, and both of them were using the Pioneer Princess. I doubt that it's a rule but you are right in that someone wouldn't want to buy something fancier than his neighbors had.

The man I knew best, who left the community and later returned, made a few comments about Amish life that were interesting. He grew up Amish, as did most of them, in one of the Pennsylvania colonies.

He said once that he needed a new coat. If he kept wearing his old coat to church, people would talk about it being disrespectful for him to come to church dressed in such tattered clothing, but if he bought a new coat, they'd wonder who he thought he was, buying a new coat when the other one was perfectly good.

He also made fun of his wife and daughters, saying that the purpose of the dress codes were for simplicity and humility, yet his wife and daughters would spend forty-five minutes ironing their head coverings so that it was just right.

As for their shopping habits, I have driven them places, and one of the places they like to go to is Sam's Club.

Their communities here in Maine have been growing significantly. I asked about the kids once, when it fit into the conversation, and was told that about eighty percent of them join the church, although some will leave for a few years before coming back and joining the church.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-26-2011 at 05:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-27-2011, 06:06 PM
BackyardHerbals BackyardHerbals is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfander View Post
I haven't bought a stove from them but have purchased many other things from Lehman's and have always been satisfied. That is probably where the Amish local to me buy their stuff to begin with, as they have Lehman's catalogs in the office.
Just to clarify, we live local to Lehman's and the Amish do not shop there. They'll go in if it's raining and watch videos about themselves, maybe eat a hotdog, but they don't shop there. Anything that the Amish actually use is sold by someone in the community, from stoves to kerosene lamps, fabric to buggies and at a greatly reduced cost over what you'll pay retail. Lehman's is a tourist trap filled with made in China junk, nothing more nothing less. If you ever have a chance to visit the store you should if only to see their impressive antiques. The Pioneer stoves can be bought direct BTW from the folks who make them. Or, even better, buy a real stove from this guy. The stoves are rebuilt, beautiful and there are deals to be had if you look! http://stovehospital.com/
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-27-2011, 06:34 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackyardHerbals View Post
Just to clarify, we live local to Lehman's and the Amish do not shop there.
That's funny. Whenever someone makes such an absolute statement about any group of people, it is clear that they're talking through their butt.

First of all, it is obvious that I know more about the Amish than you do. For one thing, the Amish are individuals, and so are their families. They live near one another but they live in families, as most people do. They don't hold goods in common (that's the Hutterites), and their church doesn't tell them where they can shop.

I suppose it is possible that the Amish near you may, for whatever strange reason, hang around Lehman's but refuse to shop there. I doubt that you know where they shop, but I'll give you that. Unlike you, I won't pretend to speak for all Amish people everywhere, especially since the very idea is preposterous.

I have driven the Amish often, and among the places that I have driven them are Sam's Club, WalMart, and Home Depot, so please don't tell me that they have secret places to buy their goods from, and would never stoop to shopping where mere mortals might shop.

The Amish are not one large, collective mind, unable to function as individuals. They are part of a church that is more controlling than many other churches, but not so much more controlling than mainstream churches were a hundred years ago. Trust me, the church does not tell them where they can shop. At least not the ones in Maine or Michigan, with whom I have had some familiarity.

Some of them are highly intelligent and witty, while others are rather dull and without a sense of humor. Some of them are kind to their children, even lenient, while others are harsh and don't seem to like their children very much. Some of them understand their religion and their policies very well, and are able to tell you which is a Scriptural rule and which is merely a policy of the community; others don't seem to get the fine points.

Some of them are very good at making things for themselves, and these would be a far greater percentage than would be found among the general population, but others are better at agriculture than woodworking. Like regular people, the Amish are individuals. Some of them have talents and skills that others are lacking. As with the general population, those who are lacking in one area often make up for it in another; unlike the general population, those who are unwilling to develop a skill are unlikely to be carried very far by the others.

My point is that, when you say that the Amish don't do this or the Amish don't do that, it is clear that you don't know as much about the subject as you think you do. Now if you were talking about a matter of Scriptural command, you might be more nearly correct, although certainly there will be Amish who may nevertheless disobey the command. But when you are talking about where they shop or what they buy, you can't lump an entire religious sect, comprised of independent colonies of independent families made up of individuals into one collective mind. It just doesn't work that way.

Perhaps the ones near you are in the Matrix however, so I won't pretend to speak for them. Here's a test you can use. Pinch one of them, and watch to see if they all react.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackyardHerbals View Post
The Pioneer stoves can be bought direct BTW from the folks who make them. Or, even better, buy a real stove from this guy. The stoves are rebuilt, beautiful and there are deals to be had if you look!
I appreciate that you are giving me permission to do that and all, but I'd rather buy my stove locally. When you consider the shipping charges, it's a lot easier and less expensive that way. Odd as it may be, it's not always cheaper to buy from the manufacturer. In fact, frequently it's not. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, it's kind of nice to have it moved into my cabin and set up for me. With some help in the lifting, I could do that myself but not having to make those arrangements are a plus, especially since I've made it a point to let very few people know even where my land is.

As for your recommendations, I had already looked at that web site, and many others. I don't live in Rhode Island, and whatever I might be able to save in buying a used stove from these people would be eaten up in transportation costs.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.

Last edited by kfander; 12-27-2011 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Edit
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-27-2011, 06:59 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

By the way, the Amish like eating at Cracker Barrel. I drove an Amish friend of mine to New York for a few days, and back, and he always wanted to stop to eat at Cracker Barrel.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-27-2011, 08:10 PM
grumble Male grumble is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: W NM, a rifle shot from the Great Divide
Posts: 2,641
Default

Ha. The Amish guy I knew HATED Cracker Barrel. So there.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-27-2011, 09:29 PM
kfander Male kfander is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Millinocket & St. Agatha, Maine
Posts: 1,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumble View Post
Ha. The Amish guy I knew HATED Cracker Barrel. So there.
Don't let the others know. Someone is going to be shunned.
__________________
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it unless someone yells at me or something.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-30-2011, 09:07 AM
swampcedars's Avatar
swampcedars Male swampcedars is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 57
Default

...this thread was about stoves ....right...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -2. The time now is 11:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1996 to Present. Backwoods Home Magazine, Inc.