BHM's Homesteading & Self-Reliance Forum

Posting requires Registration and the use of Cookies-enabled browser


Go Back   BHM Forum > Homesteading > Energy > Hydro/Wind/Wood/Geothermal

Hydro/Wind/Wood/Geothermal And other types of alternative energy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:38 AM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cleveland OH / Palestine WV
Posts: 1,330
Default EPA Wood Stove ban

If true, this would affect a lot of us, depending on how it is enforced...

http://freepatriot.org/2013/09/30/wo...ade-universal/
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Marxism: The ultimate illusory fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-02-2013, 01:03 PM
gunslinger598 Male gunslinger598 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 342
Default

I first heard of this about a year ago. The article suggested that drones be used to detect heat sources.

I've checked into "EPA" certified stoves. To me the cost is prohibitive. My only source for heat is wood.

Looking at alternatives I found the Rocket Stove mass heater. It appears that one can build it themselves very cheaply. It burns so clean that there is virtually no emissions. It shows a video of a woman holding her face within a few inches of the chimney with a fire going with no more heat than a clothes dryer vent. The amount of wood used is very very Small compared to what conventional stoves are requiring. Great for seniors who can just collect small branches. Even better unless there is a door to door search or the snitch on a neighbor program offers great incentives it's highly unlikely a drone will detect this.

Here is a link (if permitted)http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp

I had planned on building one this year but just haven't done it.

Good luck & screw the gov!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-02-2013, 01:05 PM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cleveland OH / Palestine WV
Posts: 1,330
Default

I've actually been researching along similar lines.

For us, the traditional rocket mass heater is impractical at our current place. The cabin floor simply wouldn't support all that weight.

But I've found several people online who have built "rocket stove heaters" which are basically a rocket stove heat pipe and steel chamber, with a traditional flu. Looks much like a traditional wood stove, but has rocket "innards".

I think I may build one.
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Marxism: The ultimate illusory fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-02-2013, 06:45 PM
gunslinger598 Male gunslinger598 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 342
Default

Those are a good idea also. I've been collecting materials to build both


Seems like I wait until a storm to get these kinds of projects.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:29 PM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cleveland OH / Palestine WV
Posts: 1,330
Default

I just got a new welder (half price at Home Depot 'cause it was the demo), so I'm kinda lookin' for a project.

I figure I can get all the kinks worked out by using it to heat my garage, which is about as big as the cabin (maybe a bit bigger). If it works well, I can move it to the cabin with some degree of confidence.
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Marxism: The ultimate illusory fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:00 AM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 2,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisser View Post
If true, this would affect a lot of us, depending on how it is enforced...

http://freepatriot.org/2013/09/30/wo...ade-universal/
The article is full of misinformation
Reality is EPA regulations only apply to newly manufactured stoves, and will have NO effect on existing stoves
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:11 AM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cleveland OH / Palestine WV
Posts: 1,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
The article is full of misinformation
Reality is EPA regulations only apply to newly manufactured stoves, and will have NO effect on existing stoves
You may be old enough to remember, when seatbelt laws were first passed, we were told that we would never be pulled over just for that offence. It would only be ticketed if discovered during another offence.

Now police are "aggressively" (according to their own commercials on tv and radio) ticketing solely for lack of seatbelt use.

It is the natural order of government to increase power incrementally.

IMHO, if the bureaucrats really believe that particulates are a problem, then regulating new stoves is just the first step. Once the precedent is set, they will have laid the groundwork to increase their enforcement. Why do you think they need all those bullets?
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Marxism: The ultimate illusory fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:25 AM
OzarkCountryboy OzarkCountryboy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 106
Default

Well I've done a little research on this and watched some videos on youtube of news reports in different parts of the US as to how counties are starting to enforce it. I was skeptical as to whether or not this would be enforced on the federal level but at this point I wouldn't at all be surprised.

To take a phrase out of Mister T's book, I will say this about the implementation and enforcement of such law.

"I Pity The Fool, who is told to go door to door telling good, honest, hard-working Americans who are otherwise law abiding citizens that they need to put their fire out because the EPA says it's illegal."

As for the figuring ways to redesign the stove to make it "legal" I'm sure there are a wealth of great ideas out there but as far as I'm concerned my stove heats just fine and as for the smoke exiting the chimney, yep when there's a fire lit, it's gonna smoke. First it's coal fired power plants that get the blame,then it's petroleum powered cars, now it's my freakin wood stove, at what point do people finally say "We've had enough?" or do we just lay down and keep taking it?

What a shame to know that we're a country that succeeded from the king over taxes and overreach and what have we become? We are taxed and regulated far beyond anything our forefathers could have imagined!

I have to believe that unfortunately we are being disarmed and conditioned to just accept the so called "Laws of the land". We will continue to do so until all liberties are gone and we're merely peasants beneath the communist rulers of the country at which time it will be to late to revert back or even mention democracy.

Suppose I better get off my soap box now but seriously I think at some point everyone has to honestly ask him or herself "How much more of this am I going to take and where do I draw the line?"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-03-2013, 02:45 AM
offgridbob's Avatar
offgridbob Male offgridbob is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,964
Default

It's easier to draw a line the older you get. The biggest threat to enforcement of any unconstitutional law is us baby boomers. We have lived a good life and don't mind taking someone with us when we go. Once your gone there ain't much they can do to ya. Kind of makes the opposition think twice before crossing that line.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-03-2013, 03:35 AM
doc doc is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
Posts: 1,524
Default

I could support the EPA's regs if they could point out some credible scientific evidence about health effects of smoke, but they can't. They just pull numbers about particulate size & concentrations out of their asses.

The first job of any bureaucrat is to chose some imaginary problem that can't possibly be solved and then regulate it. Because it can't actually improve the imaginary problem, their jobs are secured forever.

The govt has been closed for two days now. Does anybody miss it?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-03-2013, 12:38 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 2,065
Default

Quote:
Well I've done a little research on this and watched some videos on youtube of news reports in different parts of the US as to how counties are starting to enforce it.
Counties don't enforce EPA regulations.
They enforce their OWN regulations.

C
Quote:
ommunity Action - Laws and Ordinances

Certain jurisdictions have established legal requirements to reduce wood smoke. For example, some communities have restrictions on installing wood-burning appliances in new construction. The most common and least restrictive action is to limit use at those times when air quality is threatened. The appropriate agency issues an alert, similar to the widespread Ozone Action Day alerts.
The EPA's regulations cover NEW wood heaters, not those already in use:

Quote:
New Source Performance Standards for Residential Wood Heaters

EPA is in the process of developing revisions to the residential wood heater new source performance standards under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act. In addition to tightening the emission limits on currently regulated wood heaters to reflect improvements in best demonstrated technology,

EPA anticipates new regulations for other residential devices that use solid biomass as fuel. For example, EPA anticipates new regulations for outdoor and indoor hydronic heaters and forced air furnaces. EPA anticipates proposing the revisions and the new regulations by Summer 2012.
Most of what the article complains about hasn't even been PASSED:
http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/pdfs/NSP...posal32213.pdf

Quote:
On their site, while trying to convince people to get rid of their old stoves and buy the new EPA-certified stoves, they state that these older stove must be scrapped and cannot be resold.
That statement is simply an outright lie.
It's taking the answer they gave to a question totally out of context

It's really not that hard to find the actual facts
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:32 PM
gunslinger598 Male gunslinger598 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 342
Default

When they start talking about things , it isn't to long before one of them starts thinking it into a reality.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-03-2013, 06:12 PM
bookwormom bookwormom is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 5,546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
The article is full of misinformation
Reality is EPA regulations only apply to newly manufactured stoves, and will have NO effect on existing stoves

How do you know? Not that I am up to snuff, but our neighbor just brought home a woodstove that he got, free of charge, from his uncle in Ohio. They have a new law you can not even have a woodstove in a shop or shed. That's how he got that stove.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-03-2013, 08:05 PM
gunslinger598 Male gunslinger598 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 342
Default

Over the past 6 to 8 months I've seen this story come up a few times.

Each report is a little different. Some reports that older stoves would have to be made disabled. That could mean cutting torch time etc.

If in fact the do, & I'm sure they will to some degree start enforcing such a law the will make the rules as they go.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-03-2013, 10:00 PM
OzarkCountryboy OzarkCountryboy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 106
Default

Bearfoot maybe I should have put it differently but here's what I mean.

Under Federal "Clean Air Act" laws if it's found that air quality standards are not met in counties. Then the EPA gives the county a deadline to meet the federal standards therefore this law is effectively ENFORCED BY THE FEDS.

I'll give you an example.
Pierce County Washington, has been given until 2014 to pass the standards under the federal law. Now there are an estimated 24,000 CURRENTLY USED wood stoves and furnaces that are going to be "Phased Out" by way of a $1000.00 fine for being used on "no burn days" when pollution is deemed to high.

So the hogwash about "This only applies to new stoves and furnaces" is a bunch on malarkey. Now I'm sure there isn't an army of fed employees just waiting to bust in your door when they see smoke coming from the chimney but slowly and surely they will continue to strangle all freedoms from the citizens all the while telling us "Oh but this won't apply to what you've got now it's only a slight change for the future". We had another individual teach us a little bit here recently about "Change" so we should all be aware by now what "Change" really entails but the majority of us are still asleep and being baited and switched by the Mainstream Media and it's followers.

So here's the deal. The government can keep their "Change". I'll keep my wood furnace and we'll all be happy, right?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-03-2013, 10:05 PM
chrisser Male chrisser is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cleveland OH / Palestine WV
Posts: 1,330
Default

I doubt enforcement against existing stoves would start outright.

More likely it would be approached, as others have suggested, via insurance, mortgage companies, code enforcement, etc.

Then they could always encourage neighbors who are suffering "health effects" from the smoke to complain. Then they'd be just responding to a problem. You're on wonderful terms with all your neighbors, right?
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Marxism: The ultimate illusory fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:00 PM
OzarkCountryboy OzarkCountryboy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 106
Default

I would suspect in most areas little will be done to enforce the rules however in some areas such as Puget Sound they are actively pursuing it. The county officials there in an effort to meet the federal guidelines have I believe the report said more than 60 officials that are trying to identify which homes have wood heat. The most simple method they mentioned was they were simply driving around on cold days looking for smoke exiting chimneys.

So, do I believe that it's going to be enforced nationwide all in one large effort? No, there's just not enough manpower with enough foolishness to attempt it just yet.

Does that mean the laws aren't on the books? Or that they only affect "New" stove and furnaces? Indeed the laws are there and the misconception that there are no laws that pertain to existing wood fired heat generators is simply wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-05-2013, 09:31 PM
papa bear papa bear is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 384
Default

this is a whole lot like cigarette enforcement. now as far as smoking goes. i think you are three times a fool for doing it. but it did irk me when the government started mandating it

first you could pretty much smoke anywhere, then you had to get permission from those around you

then you were moved to a "separate section"

then you couldn't smoke at all you had to go outside. then they started making laws about outside use, beaches, parks and ball parks.

now they are even starting to regulate it in your car or home.

once the regs a tighten on wood stoves the it won't be long before they will start on existing stoves. then it will be, what kind of wood (probably have to buy a processed kind)

progressives likes control
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-06-2013, 11:27 AM
whitehairedidiot Female whitehairedidiot is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,523
Default

Can I join in?

Back in '90, when we built our little cabin on the ridge in WV... we built it, paying cash for things along the way. When it came time for insurance - we could NOT insure it, with simply the woodstove for a heat source; we were forced to install baseboard heaters. (Inspections do not exist in the boonies however). We installed the baseboards, but simply left the breakers off. Had to open the windows a crack in the dead of winter, it was so warm in there!! And only had to feed the stove, twice a day.

Next chapter of life, found me in a 70s brick ranch, on the edge of town. The previous owners had a wood stove in the basement, using the existing fireplace chimney on the floor above, to run the flue. We went with a wood pellet stove, instead - which comes with catalytic converters and an electric fan. We turned the breakers off for all the heat - except in the sunroom (patio slab that was enclosed). Long story short: after we moved, our insurance was cancelled, we had to find something else, house was vacant while we got it ready to put on the market... and there were two idiotic stipulations: one was to completely remove the pellet stove from the premises... as it was a fire hazard (???? with no one to feed it???? turn it on????) and the other, was to completely cut off the well pump... (on a well & septic system and let me tell you - the stench required opening every window and door. Idiots) We could NOT leave the disconnected stoves (we had a spare in the garage) on the property, if we wanted insurance. We gave away two good stoves.

Are they going to ban campfires? those fancy-ass fire pits that are now markets as "patio lifestyle decor"? (we just bought one... to take care of small limbs - because the stupid laws have eliminated every possible way to clean up our yards - except chipping (which we can do) and leaving them lay as obstacles in the dark for people who have no business being in our woods. (which we ARE doing)

How bad IS this?? Well, here's an article from Saturday's WSJ that gives you an idea. These environments groups have been using "sue and settle" via "Consent Decree" - to close Hatteras Beach whenever they think a bird MIGHT make a nest (and trapping/killing any mammal predators that also live there)... and most importantly -- to halt progress on replacing the Bonner Bridge which has been thoroughly permitted and approved and budgeted for. These people don't live here - but are trying to tell us what we can/can't do. It HAS TO STOP.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...181105684.html
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-06-2013, 01:45 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 2,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookwormom;368187[B
]How do you know? [/B] Not that I am up to snuff, but our neighbor just brought home a woodstove that he got, free of charge, from his uncle in Ohio. They have a new law you can not even have a woodstove in a shop or shed. That's how he got that stove.
I know it because I read the EPA site itself.
That "new law" didn't come from the EPA
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -2. The time now is 05:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1996 to Present. Backwoods Home Magazine, Inc.