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Hydro/Wind/Wood/Geothermal And other types of alternative energy

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  #21  
Old 10-06-2013, 12:57 PM
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Now there are an estimated 24,000 CURRENTLY USED wood stoves and furnaces that are going to be "Phased Out" by way of a $1000.00 fine for being used on "no burn days" when pollution is deemed to high.

So the hogwash about "This only applies to new stoves and furnaces" is a bunch on malarkey
"No burn days" are NOT EPA regulations.
They are STATE regulations

Show me a link to an EPA site that refers to stoves already in use, and I will believe it.

The EPA sites I've seen myself say it's for NEW STOVES, as I've shown above
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2013, 02:41 PM
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Will you provide a link to the law? That keeps all the information accurate.
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:12 PM
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EPA regulations, state laws, federal laws, put it all in a pile since they would all have to be taken into consideration when it comes down to it. More than likely it will.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
I know it because I read the EPA site itself.
My Dog, Man! Your asking these people to source informtion and read for themselves!

You can't do that! It is unPatriotic!

Why they heard it from Cousins, boyfriends, neighbor. He read it about somewhere and in their entirely different State this must be true. It's on the internet.
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  #25  
Old 10-08-2013, 11:12 AM
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My Dog, Man! Your asking these people to source informtion and read for themselves!
You're correct.
I should know better by now
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  #26  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:01 PM
gunslinger598 Male gunslinger598 is offline
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When a person post something as fact they should as a courtesy provide at least minimal documentation to substantiate it.

This is all one gets when attempting to access a gov website:

The federal government is currently shut down. The EPA website and social media channels will not be updated until the federal government reopens. En la actualidad, el cierre del Gobierno Federal está en vigor.

Now I had thought the purpose of these types of message boards were to help one another with information common to the theme of the sight.

However, since I first joined there is one person (you know who you are) That takes it upon themself to attack anything they don't agree with. What I have to say is this world isn't made up completely of people like you or me. Neither is this board. There is room for everyone. Lighten up already.

The reason I ask for a link is for many months I have seen report after report that are contrary & widely available in a search. The information stated as fact in the post can't even be found, so why flame a person for asking. Not a good measure of character.
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  #27  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:09 PM
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here ya go guys ( I am sure glad I live in Missouri)

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/ordinances.html

further:

Quote:
The provisions of this sub-part do not apply to wood heaters constructed prior to July 1, 1988, that are or have been owned by a noncommercial owner for his personal use.
http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resource...dstoverule.pdf


but I suspect it goes a lot deeper than this as the companies are still out there selling out wood furnaces like Taylor . you all can take it from here. I know mine was made after 1988. I guess my taylor is called a " boiler" which is not covered also.

here is the best site ( complete with forum) that I have seen on heating with wood. They are a bit stuffy but have lots of info.

http://www.hearth.com/
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 10-08-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:17 PM
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Thank you, it's a help
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2013, 10:20 PM
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The reason I ask for a link is for many months I have seen report after report that are contrary & widely available in a search. The information stated as fact in the post can't even be found, so why flame a person for asking. Not a good measure of character
All the data needed to find the correct info was given in the OP and in the link I already posted.

This story was going around before the "shutdown", and these regulations were proposed about a year ago.

The link you just called " a help" came from the same site as the link I posted much earlier, which was also cited in the OP article

From Post #11:

Quote:
Most of what the article complains about hasn't even been PASSED:
http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/pdfs/NSP...posal32213.pdf
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  #30  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:58 AM
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I agree it's good rhetorical & scientific form to mention references when posting comments as "facts."

But please note that the govt site does not do that- they state emphatically the deleterious "Health Effects of Particulates" with no data or studies mentioned to support the claim. That's called "propaganda" not "information."

And why do they pick 1988 as the cut-off date? Arbitrary & capricious, the lawyers would say.

BTW- it's been 8 days since the govt shut down. Anybody feel the effects yet?
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  #31  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by doc View Post
I agree it's good rhetorical & scientific form to mention references when posting comments as "facts."

But please note that the govt site does not do that- they state emphatically the deleterious "Health Effects of Particulates" with no data or studies mentioned to support the claim. That's called "propaganda" not "information."

And why do they pick 1988 as the cut-off date? Arbitrary & capricious, the lawyers would say.

BTW- it's been 8 days since the govt shut down. Anybody feel the effects yet?
Absolutely do .... No stupid laws have been passed ! No idiot food swat teams .
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  #32  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:32 AM
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For years there was a defacto national speed limit of 55.

No laws were passed. Instead, it was accomplished via the threat of withholding highway funding. Laws are only part of the equation. Regulations that basically have the force of law are another huge component, and political will can be exercised without either.

I don't know what the exact state of wood stove regulation in a particular place at this particular time is, or what it will be in the future. Frankly, there are so many laws at the just the federal level that it's virtually impossible for anyone, however knowledgeable, to say with absolute certainty what law(s) and regulations(s) apply to a particular situation. Even if you could, it's a constantly moving target subject to the interpretation of the regulatory class.

But it's pretty obvious from what can be taken as fact in the article that the EPA believes wood stoves to be a dangerous device requiring regulation. From what I've read, their regulations have already put stove manufacturers out of business because they were unable to modify their products to meet them. Those that have remained have had to raise prices to fund the research, development and testing required to get certified, and that is a bar that the EPA is already looking at raising according to one of the documents linked. You can bet that plenty of industry lobbying is going on to help shape these regulations and, as usual, the big players will have the most influence, for good or bad.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that this is all the first step and that much more is to come. If I knew what was to come and when, I could probably make a small killing in the stock market. I can probably guess that what, but the when's a little harder.

There's a good portion of the country that lives in the central cities and couldn't care less if wood stoves were regulated out of existence. The rest of us rely on them pretty heavily in order to afford to stay out of the central cities.

There's a school of thought within the environmental movement, and I'd guess it's pretty prevalent in the EPA, that humans are a blight on the natural environment. If you catch them in an honest moment, they'd prefer to liquidate a lot of us, but their next best idea is to herd as many of us into central cities as possible so we can be controlled. Of course, the assumption is the enlightened among them will be in charge. Maybe I'm paranoid, but this new desire to regulate wood stoves seems to fit perfectly into that philosophy.

I think it's a good idea to clarify, as much as is possible, what the current state of laws and regulations are at this moment. But I think it's foolish to assume that they won't change for the worse in a timeframe that will matter to most of us here.
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  #33  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
All the data needed to find the correct info was given in the OP and in the link I already posted.

This story was going around before the "shutdown", and these regulations were proposed about a year ago.

The link you just called " a help" came from the same site as the link I posted much earlier, which was also cited in the OP article

From Post #11:

The "help" was someone actually putting in the effort to NOT be condescending. As stated the site was full of propaganda.

What exactly would it have hurt to be helpful & repost a link in case someone missed it? Instead of choosing to take it to the level you have. If your goal of participating here isn't to help you are wasting time. Mostly everyone Else's. I did ask because I did not see any link with useful information. When another person post asking the only response was "I read it on the EPA web sight.

I'm not going to participate in this discussion after this post. So if ya feel a need to fire back don't waste your time as you have here.
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  #34  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gunslinger598 View Post
The "help" was someone actually putting in the effort to NOT be condescending. As stated the site was full of propaganda.

What exactly would it have hurt to be helpful & repost a link in case someone missed it?\

Instead of choosing to take it to the level you have.

If your goal of participating here isn't to help you are wasting time. Mostly everyone Else's. I did ask because I did not see any link with useful information. When another person post asking the only response was "I read it on the EPA web sight.

I'm not going to participate in this discussion after this post. So if ya feel a need to fire back don't waste your time as you have here.
What would it hurt for you to READ what's already posted?

What' "level" do you mean? Actually posting links about the topic?
You posted # 12, so if you didn't see # 11, who's fault is that?

You're complaining because YOU didn't read what was already there, and blaming others for it

It's your loss if you "don't participate".
You're the one with questions, and I already did the research.


You can call it "propaganda": if you like, but it IS the actual EPA site, so you'll have to take it up with them

Maybe after the "shutdown"

Last edited by Bearfootfarm; 10-10-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2013, 02:58 PM
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Here is what happened to a county near me when it came to new septic laws that would only affect “new construction”. When they changed the county ordinance or rules many banks would only fund homes “new or old” that complied with the new regulations. The older homes were protected but only until they changed ownership. Then the country had to step in and start running septic lines and forced people to hook into them. Insurance companies may also start to do the same things. Insurance companies may stop insuring older homes that do not meet new requirements or charge additional money.

Don't think the government is here to help, they are here to tax and control. The more taxes and control they feel they will lose the more they will tighten their grip on us.
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  #36  
Old 02-03-2014, 09:41 PM
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Recent article in Forbes on the same topic:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...-rural-people/
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  #37  
Old 02-04-2014, 12:02 AM
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Excellent find Chrisser. Thanks for keeping up.

" Quoting Representative Tammie Wilson speaking to the Associated Press, the Times reported: “Everyone wants clean air. We just want to make sure that we can also heat our homes” Wilson continued: “Rather than fret over EPA’s computer – model – based warning about the dangers of inhaling soot from wood smoke, residents have more pressing concerns on their minds as the immediate risk of freezing when the mercury plunges.”

And speaking of theoretical computer model-based warnings, where’s that global warming when we really need it? " <--- Love his closing remark !
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  #38  
Old 02-04-2014, 11:00 AM
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I found this interesting:

"“Sue and settle “ practices, sometimes referred to as “friendly lawsuits”, are cozy deals through which far-left radical environmental groups file lawsuits against federal agencies wherein court-ordered “consent decrees” are issued based upon a prearranged settlement agreement they collaboratively craft together in advance behind closed doors. Then, rather than allowing the entire process to play out, the agency being sued settles the lawsuit by agreeing to move forward with the requested action both they and the litigants want.

And who pays for this litigation? All-too-often we taxpayers are put on the hook for legal fees of both colluding parties. According to a 2011 GAO report, this amounted to millions of dollars awarded to environmental organizations for EPA litigations between 1995 and 2010. Three “Big Green” groups received 41% of this payback, with Earthjustice accounting for 30 percent ($4,655,425). Two other organizations with histories of lobbying for regulations EPA wants while also receiving agency funding are the American Lung Association (ALA) and the Sierra Club..."

"...Other concerned and impacted parties have little influence over such court procedures and decisions. While the environmental group is given a seat at the table, outsiders who are most impacted are excluded, with no opportunity to object to the settlements. No public notice about the settlement is released until the agreement is filed in court…after the damage has been done."
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  #39  
Old 02-04-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
I know it because I read the EPA site itself.
That "new law" didn't come from the EPA

I don't care where the law came from, it is a law, and our friend got an almost brand new stove because the prev. owner was not allowed to use it in his location.
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  #40  
Old 02-04-2014, 03:14 PM
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I don't care where the law came from, it is a law, and our friend got an almost brand new stove because the prev. owner was not allowed to use it in his location.
Local regulations have nothing to do with EPA regulations, which is the OP topic.

If you want to complain about local laws. that's a different subject, since the fact your friend can still use the stove proves it's not a widespread federal regulation
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