BHM's Homesteading & Self-Reliance Forum

Posting requires Registration and the use of Cookies-enabled browser

  #1  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:20 AM
randallhilton's Avatar
randallhilton Male randallhilton is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 1,443
Default Hollow point vs Solid for handguns

A thread happened to pop up while I was doing some research on handguns:
Confused about ammo.

At the same time, I stumbled across some excellent video comparisons of various rounds:

tnoutdoors

Firearms, ballistics and all that sort of thing is NOT my area of expertise so I try to simplify where I can. Based upon what I've been discovering, I'm about to change a long held belief about handgun bullets.

It seems to me, that the most effective handgun ammo would be solid point bullets rather than those hollow point "defense" rounds. Here's my rationale:

* Often, hollow points don't strike the target with enough force to deform the round. Therefore, the bullet is simply a lighter bullet than what could have been fired.

* Deforming a bullet expends kinetic energy. If the bullet expands before reaching adequate penetration it has effectively been neutered.

* A solid bullet (more mass = increased kinetic energy) has a better chance of reaching important vital structure (central nervous system, blood organs, lungs etc.) while retaining enough energy to do damage to said structure.

* The so called "over penetration" problem where the bullet passes through the target is a red herring. If a bullet passes all the way through the target then that is evidence that it missed vital structures.

* A hollow point that doesn't encounter vital structures is not likely to deform, meaning it is acting like a lighter, solid bullet.

In other words, I'm considering preferring mass over expansion.

Thoughts?
__________________

Use less, lose less, weigh the benefits, count the costs.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:41 AM
J R Adams J R Adams is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,533
Default

I'll stay with Black Talon!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:41 AM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
A thread happened to pop up while I was doing some research on handguns:
Confused about ammo.

At the same time, I stumbled across some excellent video comparisons of various rounds:

tnoutdoors

Firearms, ballistics and all that sort of thing is NOT my area of expertise so I try to simplify where I can. Based upon what I've been discovering, I'm about to change a long held belief about handgun bullets.

It seems to me, that the most effective handgun ammo would be solid point bullets rather than those hollow point "defense" rounds. Here's my rationale:

* Often, hollow points don't strike the target with enough force to deform the round. Therefore, the bullet is simply a lighter bullet than what could have been fired.

* Deforming a bullet expends kinetic energy. If the bullet expands before reaching adequate penetration it has effectively been neutered.

* A solid bullet (more mass = increased kinetic energy) has a better chance of reaching important vital structure (central nervous system, blood organs, lungs etc.) while retaining enough energy to do damage to said structure.

* The so called "over penetration" problem where the bullet passes through the target is a red herring. If a bullet passes all the way through the target then that is evidence that it missed vital structures.

* A hollow point that doesn't encounter vital structures is not likely to deform, meaning it is acting like a lighter, solid bullet.

In other words, I'm considering preferring mass over expansion.

Thoughts?
This is how I see it.
I mix my load one FMJ and one JHP and so on, 230 grain .45. Penetration is key. In a pistol it seems most shoots won't immediately kill on incapacitate the way a rifle can. If faced with a threat, and you have decided the use of deadly force is necessary, this should be your goal.

It seems the best chance you have to quickly incapacitate the bad guy is to get into a vital area. For the most part this means you have to get deep into the body. A bullet that deforms MAY not reach as deep as a bullet that holds itself together better. I see a solid bullet as more advantageous when it comes to quickly incapacitating the bad guy.

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:06 PM
MichaelK Male MichaelK is online now
Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sierra foothills
Posts: 550
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
It seems to me, that the most effective handgun ammo would be solid point bullets rather than those hollow point "defense" rounds. Here's my rationale:

* Often, hollow points don't strike the target with enough force to deform the round. Therefore, the bullet is simply a lighter bullet than what could have been fired.
You get expansion with lead core bullets at about 1000 feet per second. Almost all handguns can produce that with some grain bullet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
* Deforming a bullet expends kinetic energy. If the bullet expands before reaching adequate penetration it has effectively been neutered.
You WANT the bullet to expend its kinetic energy. Any energy the bullet still possesses after it leaves the body is totally wasted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
* A solid bullet (more mass = increased kinetic energy) has a better chance of reaching important vital structure (central nervous system, blood organs, lungs etc.) while retaining enough energy to do damage to said structure.
The cross-section of the bullet is the single most important thing with the interaction of soft tissue. Mushrooming of the hollow point is the single best way to increase cross-sectional area, and hence the amount of hydrostatic shock it produces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
* The so called "over penetration" problem where the bullet passes through the target is a red herring. If a bullet passes all the way through the target then that is evidence that it missed vital structures.
A little hole through a vital organ is not as bad as a bigger hole through the same organ. Mushrooming maximizes the damage any particular bullet can cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
* A hollow point that doesn't encounter vital structures is not likely to deform, meaning it is acting like a lighter, solid bullet.
A hollow point does not have to encounter vital structures to deform. It is hydrostatic pressure that deforms the bullet, and bullets will mushroom in plain water.

There are instances where deep penetration trumps all other issues. One would be a defense weapon against very large angry bears. Another is against human assailants wearing very heavy winter clothing. A third would be shooting at assailants inside a vehicle. There's no single bullet that will work magically under any imaginable circumstances, but most bullets designed for up-close and personal defense perform very well hollow-pointed. Right now I'm working on a custom personall defense load in my .45 that will utilize a hybrid cast/swaged hollow point that I'm making. Will get back with performance results shortly.
__________________
I'm an O negative, Aries, ISTJ, Rat.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:34 PM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK View Post
You get expansion with lead core bullets at about 1000 feet per second. Almost all handguns can produce that with some grain bullet.

You WANT the bullet to expend its kinetic energy. Any energy the bullet still possesses after it leaves the body is totally wasted.

The cross-section of the bullet is the single most important thing with the interaction of soft tissue. Mushrooming of the hollow point is the single best way to increase cross-sectional area, and hence the amount of hydrostatic shock it produces.


A little hole through a vital organ is not as bad as a bigger hole through the same organ. Mushrooming maximizes the damage any particular bullet can cause.

A hollow point does not have to encounter vital structures to deform. It is hydrostatic pressure that deforms the bullet, and bullets will mushroom in plain water.

There are instances where deep penetration trumps all other issues. One would be a defense weapon against very large angry bears. Another is against human assailants wearing very heavy winter clothing. A third would be shooting at assailants inside a vehicle. There's no single bullet that will work magically under any imaginable circumstances, but most bullets designed for up-close and personal defense perform very well hollow-pointed. Right now I'm working on a custom personall defense load in my .45 that will utilize a hybrid cast/swaged hollow point that I'm making. Will get back with performance results shortly.
hydrostatic pressure, from a rifle yes from a hand gun not so much, unless you hit the brain.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:23 PM
ArmySGT.'s Avatar
ArmySGT. Male ArmySGT. is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
hydrostatic pressure, from a rifle yes from a hand gun not so much, unless you hit the brain.
Hydrostatic Shock
__________________
This is a how-to, homesteading and self-reliance website and Forum. We want to attract people who are primarily interested in those areas and for whom politics is secondary.
Oliver
Here's an internet truth; just because it bothers you, doesn't mean anyone else cares! - Me.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Nickathome Nickathome is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pa
Posts: 390
Default

Consider climate as well. In warm climates where layers of thick clothing aren't an option a hollow point may still pack enough punch to get the job done. However you'd be better off using solids in a colder area or during winter when an assailant is bound to have on many layers of thick clothing. This alone could defeat a hollow point or at least reduce its effectiveness to where its a moot point to even think of using them.

I don't agree however with your assessment that because a bullet (be it even a hollow point) penetrates fully and exits the target, that no vitals were hit. This is simply not true. A hollow point bullet could penetrate several vitals, expand and still exit a body. Depends upon the type of round, the distance from the target,etc.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:03 PM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post

Its affects are debatable and usually more associated with a bullet that moves faster than one from a hand gun (seems a 3.57 with a long enough barrel my work), what isn’t disputed is that is if you can hit a vital area you can stop the bad guy quick which is the goal in self defensive shooting. To hit one these areas you are more than likely going to have to get deep into the body, a solid projectile has a greater chance of doing this.

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
Gun Wiki at this time rejects the theory of hydrostatic shock that from a remote impact and despite organ failure and or loss of blood pressure, a pressured wave acting on the central nervous system leads to unconsciousness or death.

http://www.scopedin.com/articles/editorials/the-fascinating-topic-of-hydrostatic-shock/
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:09 PM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default

Show me something that says if you penetrate a vital area too deep it will cause less damage. Show where it says a hollow point will penetrate deeper than a FMJ.

If you hit soft tissue even a .22 can travel completely through the body and "over penetrate" I have actually seen a .22 fired from a revolver(maybe 2-3 feet) pass completely through a person foot and stopped by his shoe.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:02 PM
ArmySGT.'s Avatar
ArmySGT. Male ArmySGT. is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1,621
Default

Oh good. Wiki by an unknown that isn't confident enough in the position to put his name on it.
__________________
This is a how-to, homesteading and self-reliance website and Forum. We want to attract people who are primarily interested in those areas and for whom politics is secondary.
Oliver
Here's an internet truth; just because it bothers you, doesn't mean anyone else cares! - Me.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:09 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 1,892
Default

Quote:
Show me something that says if you penetrate a vital area too deep it will cause less damage. Show where it says a hollow point will penetrate deeper than a FMJ.
We beat this dead horse severely in the other thread and EVERY source (even YOURS) stated 12-14 inches was ADEQUATE penetration to reach the vital organs.

Your constant comparison to rifle rounds is meaningless in THIS discussion.
Your argument that velocities are "too low" for deformation is counterproductive, because if it won't deform, it acts like a FMJ anyway.


If it DOES deform, it causes MORE damage.

If FMJ's were REALLY better, that is what everyone would use, but the FACTS are no one uses anything other than hollowpoints, because they work best.

Only the morbidly obese would require more than 14" of penetration to reach the center of the chest.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:25 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 1,892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton
* A hollow point that doesn't encounter vital structures is not likely to deform, meaning it is acting like a lighter, solid bullet.
That's called a "MISS" and will not deform.

BUT bullets that hit anything as dense as human flesh WILL most likely deform, as hollowpoints are designed to do.

If you want to claim hollowpoints NEVER deform, then its foolish to say you need FMJ's

Hollowpoints DO expand in flesh at handgun velocities, and to continually deny that reality is just silly

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:46 PM
ArmySGT.'s Avatar
ArmySGT. Male ArmySGT. is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
Show me something that says if you penetrate a vital area too deep it will cause less damage.


No one has made this claim except you.

What everyone is has been telling you. Repeatedly.

Hollow Points cause more damage because the diameter of the bullet increases upon impact, and the larger bullet diameter creates a larger wound cavity. A larger wound cavity hemorraghes in greater volume and faster. A larger hemorrhage means faster incapacitation due to drop in blood pressure. The brain isn't getting blood, and shuts down.

Hydrostatic shocks isn't known only for some instances of capillary ruptures in the brain. It known for stunning the central nervous system causing disruption of the voluntary and involuntary nerves. Surely you have hit your elbow and the nerve cluster there called the "funny bone". Probably been kneed in the outside of the thigh striking the nerve cluster there and been unable to walk properly for a few minute. The "charley horse".While stunned and unable to react to the wounding the blood loss continues and the blood pressure drops.

What you have been told about over-penetration is that sometime FMJ that is very hard cast lead, or is a solid core like steel or tungsten passes right through the body. Doesn't deflect or change position. In fact if it doesn't hit a bone, its like being stabbed with an ice pick.

Thus if this high speed, solid FMJ doesn't hit the heart, spinal column, or enter the cranial cavity an strike the brain, incapacitation or death is not immediate. Those are people shot in the lungs, the liver, and only the smallest of blood vessels, with the bullet taking any remaining kinetic energy with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
Show where it says a hollow point will penetrate deeper than a FMJ.
Show me where some one said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
If you hit soft tissue even a .22 can travel completely through the body and "over penetrate" I have actually seen a .22 fired from a revolver(maybe 2-3 feet) pass completely through a person foot and stopped by his shoe.
Curious.......... This foot had no bones in it?

Rejecting anecdotal evidence by a non medical observer with a clear bias.
__________________
This is a how-to, homesteading and self-reliance website and Forum. We want to attract people who are primarily interested in those areas and for whom politics is secondary.
Oliver
Here's an internet truth; just because it bothers you, doesn't mean anyone else cares! - Me.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:47 PM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
We beat this dead horse severely in the other thread and EVERY source (even YOURS) stated 12-14 inches was ADEQUATE penetration to reach the vital organs.

Your constant comparison to rifle rounds is meaningless in THIS discussion.
Your argument that velocities are "too low" for deformation is counterproductive, because if it won't deform, it acts like a FMJ anyway.


If it DOES deform, it causes MORE damage.

If FMJ's were REALLY better, that is what everyone would use, but the FACTS are no one uses anything other than hollowpoints, because they work best.

Only the morbidly obese would require more than 14" of penetration to reach the center of the chest.

HP can cause more damage but it is not that "extra“ damage that will quidkly stop a threat. If the bullet comes apart and looses mass it won’t penetrate as deep. If it mushrooms it will do more damage but will slow down and not penetrate as deep.

I believe the extra damage they cause could possibly keep them from meeting my goal which would be to quickly stop a threat. I carry a mixed load (FMJ and JHP) and train to shot three times center mass. That way if one is more affective then the other I am covered, maybe.

We have beaten this to death. I will trust the study that deal with bodies over testing done with gelatin. I will still carry JHP and FMJ.

Bottom line, if we can take this conversation this far we are thinking more alike than different. We are both concerned with our personal protection and that of our family and that is realty what is important.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:58 PM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
Default


As far as the shoot to the foot. It was in high school and a friend was being stupid. He had the gun pointing down, it went off. It was a .22 revolver, with a longer barrel. We both looked at each other than at his foot. His shoe filled up with blood. He took his shoe off put it in a box we found in the garage. He was worried about making a mess in the house, his shoe had blood in it and the foot was still bleeding. He went into his house to call his dad at work, he wasn’t there. This was way before cell phones.

We hoped in his car and he drove to the ER. The bullet went in below his ankle and out his arch. They cleaned and bandaged it. He was on crutches for a few days.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:42 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 1,892
Default

Quote:
HP can cause more damage but it is not that "extra“ damage that will quidkly stop a threat.

If the bullet comes apart and looses mass it won’t penetrate as deep. If it mushrooms it will do more damage but will slow down and not penetrate as deep.
It is nothing BUT damage that stops a threat, so more MUST be better.

You've failed to show that hollowpoint don't have ADEQUATE penetration most of the time.

You've failed to show ANY source that concludes FMJ ammo is superior to JHP's

All the sources say 12-14" is ENOUGH to do the job

There's no point in just repeating any of it again on either thread
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:12 AM
randallhilton's Avatar
randallhilton Male randallhilton is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 1,443
Default

I appreciate the discussion very much.

Points we can agree on (I hope).

* Placement is important (maybe most important?). A BB to the eye is more deadly than a zombie killer 45 through a finger.

* Kinetic energy is calculated as 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity. (doubling the bullet weight doubles the kinetic energy. Doubling the velocity QUADRUPLES the kinetic energy).

* High velocity is important to bullet deformation.

* In hand guns, barrel length can have a significant effect on developed velocity. Shorter barrels = lower velocity.

Hypothesis:
I've seen reports that hollow points can get clogged with cloth, preventing their expansion. The evidence is simply an unexpanded hollow point that has a plug of cloth in it. Perhaps the real reason the round failed to deform is the fact that the bullet left the barrel with just barely enough velocity for deformation. When it encountered winter clothing backed by pliable fat (or gel) the energy simply diffused so much that the round couldn't deform. Therefore, it ended up with a plug of cloth inside the hollow point.

Question:
So. . . my carry gun, a Glock 27 sub compact with about a 3 1/2" barrel might not develop enough velocity to reliably expand a hollow point. If that's the case, wouldn't it make sense to stick with the solid bullet?
__________________

Use less, lose less, weigh the benefits, count the costs.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:16 PM
Stinger's Avatar
Stinger Male Stinger is offline
Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
A thread happened to pop up while I was doing some research on handguns:

Confused about ammo.

At the same time, I stumbled across some excellent video comparisons of various rounds:

tnoutdoors

Firearms, ballistics and all that sort of thing is NOT my area of expertise so I try to simplify where I can. Based upon what I've been discovering, I'm about to change a long held belief about handgun bullets.

It seems to me, that the most effective handgun ammo would be solid point bullets rather than those hollow point "defense" rounds. Here's my rationale:

* Often, hollow points don't strike the target with enough force to deform the round. Therefore, the bullet is simply a lighter bullet than what could have been fired.

* Deforming a bullet expends kinetic energy. If the bullet expands before reaching adequate penetration it has effectively been neutered.

* A solid bullet (more mass = increased kinetic energy) has a better chance of reaching important vital structure (central nervous system, blood organs, lungs etc.) while retaining enough energy to do damage to said structure.

* The so called "over penetration" problem where the bullet passes through the target is a red herring. If a bullet passes all the way through the target then that is evidence that it missed vital structures.

* A hollow point that doesn't encounter vital structures is not likely to deform, meaning it is acting like a lighter, solid bullet.

In other words, I'm considering preferring mass over expansion.

Thoughts?
Wow! I'm feeling a little dizzy! At last someone else's conclusions with which I'm able to absolutely agree.
__________________
Life is karma; and, karma always reflects, both, past and present circumstance. Our time, here, is short; so choose carefully and behave well; for, all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-25-2013, 03:45 PM
ArmySGT.'s Avatar
ArmySGT. Male ArmySGT. is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
Hypothesis:
I've seen reports that hollow points can get clogged with cloth, preventing their expansion. The evidence is simply an unexpanded hollow point that has a plug of cloth in it. Perhaps the real reason the round failed to deform is the fact that the bullet left the barrel with just barely enough velocity for deformation. When it encountered winter clothing backed by pliable fat (or gel) the energy simply diffused so much that the round couldn't deform. Therefore, it ended up with a plug of cloth inside the hollow point.
The plug acts to DIVERT the flesh around the bullets hollow point cavity. Like the cone nose of a missile diverts air around the body of the missile.

It is not that the velocity is too low, the medium it was designed to act upon is passing around it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
Question:
So. . . my carry gun, a Glock 27 sub compact with about a 3 1/2" barrel might not develop enough velocity to reliably expand a hollow point. If that's the case, wouldn't it make sense to stick with the solid bullet?
Switch to +P+ in winter or to solids......... or test your brand.

Ballistics gelatin and some fleece jackets and wool blankets.
__________________
This is a how-to, homesteading and self-reliance website and Forum. We want to attract people who are primarily interested in those areas and for whom politics is secondary.
Oliver
Here's an internet truth; just because it bothers you, doesn't mean anyone else cares! - Me.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:02 PM
Bearfootfarm's Avatar
Bearfootfarm Male Bearfootfarm is offline
Grand Master Pontificator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 1,892
Default

Quote:
Question:
So. . . my carry gun, a Glock 27 sub compact with about a 3 1/2" barrel might not develop enough velocity to reliably expand a hollow point.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make sense to stick with the solid bullet?
That's not the case
These bullets are designed to expand at relatively low velocities.
RonMo's biggest argument (1/2 the time) is they expand too much to penetrate):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-482552.html
Quote:
The 40SW doesn't suffer as much as some other calibers as barrel length is decreased. In general heavier bullets will lose less % velocity as barrels are shortened because they have less powder to burn.

Corbon 135gr clock > 1250fps from my G27. 180gr Federal Tactical go close to 1000fps. 165gr Golden Saber go about 1050fps. 180gr Federal American Eagle go 950+fps.
With over 100 posts in these two similar threads, not ONE source has said FMJ's are superior in perfomance in handgun loads for self defense, and they ALL have said 12-14" is ADEQUATE penetration

If you carry FMJ's, you're only handicapping yourself

Penetration/expansion tests using Glock 27:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article416.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article417.htm

Last edited by Bearfootfarm; 10-25-2013 at 05:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -2. The time now is 06:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1996 to Present. Backwoods Home Magazine, Inc.