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  #21  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
That's not the case
These bullets are designed to expand at relatively low velocities.
RonMo's biggest argument (1/2 the time) is they expand too much to penetrate):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-482552.html


With over 100 posts in these two similar threads, not ONE source has said FMJ's are superior in perfomance in handgun loads for self defense, and they ALL have said 12-14" is ADEQUATE penetration

If you carry FMJ's, you're only handicapping yourself

Penetration/expansion tests using Glock 27:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article416.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article417.htm
Bearfootfarm, it appears that you nailed it. It just so happens that I currently carry the .40 S&W Winchester 180gr Ranger SXT JHP exactly as tested on the above links. It makes sense to keep on with what I've been doing.

My questions began when I saw some videos where top brand name HP through denim into gelatin completely failed to expand.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. This has been a most interesting journey which I doubt is actually finished.

I only hope I never have to find out, first hand, how these things really work.
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  #22  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:34 PM
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40 S&W Winchester 180gr Ranger SXT JHP
You do know that's really the infamous "Black Talon", with it's kinder, gentler name?
The HP that did "so much damage" they "took it off the market"?



LOL

Quote:
My questions began when I saw some videos where top brand name HP through denim into gelatin completely failed to expand.
With the advent of Youtube everyone and his brother have become "experts" by putting out videos.
Some give far too much credence to these isolated random falures, while ignoring the 99.9% of projectiles that DO perform as designed

Last edited by Bearfootfarm; 10-25-2013 at 07:40 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:39 PM
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You do know that's really the infamous "Black Talon", with it's kinder, gentler name?
The HP that did "so much damage" they "took it off the market"?



LOL
It was the LEO nickname for the Black Talon cartridge the had it "removed" from the market.

Cops called it the "Black Felon" round.
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  #24  
Old 10-25-2013, 08:04 PM
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....... With over 100 posts in these two similar threads, not ONE source has said FMJ's are superior in perfomance in handgun loads for self defense, and they ALL have said 12-14" is ADEQUATE penetration. If you carry FMJ's, you're only handicapping yourself.
Ahh, excuse me; but I believe I did. (Repeatedly!)

Yes, 12 to 14 inches of penetration is adequate; BUT, that's not the point. Am I to assume from the above comments that the United States Military (and everybody else's military, too) has gotten itself all screwed up by attempting to adhere to the 1907 Hague Convention accords?

A few years ago I witnessed a large bore coon get hit by a car out on the road in front of the farm. The driver who hit him was traveling way too fast for the road. He briefly stopped to look at his handiwork; (writhing in the roadway with part of it's lower jaw and shoulder torn off) and then he just happily drove off.

I walked out onto the roadway; no traffic was coming in either direction; so I used a stick to push the still living carcass to the side of the road. There I used my 9mm EDC to put two JHP rounds into the animal's chest. Nothing! They almost seemed to bounce off. So I switched magazines and put one FMJ round into the animal's chest cavity. That round punched right through; and the animal's suffering was over in a matter of seconds.

Yes, especially in the wintertime, I carry an assortment of both JHP, and FMJ ammo. JHP's for the city; and FMJ's the rest of the time. My preference is, as I believe I've made clear, for FMJ ammo. The more heavily dressed people tend to be the more I prefer to carry and used FMJ pistol bullets.

Why? Because unlike more politically correct JHP ammo, FMJ bullets (probably) ain't going to be stopped by what the other guy is wearing; and, I continue to prefer both entrance AND exit wounds over only one entrance wound; (and I don't care how large the temporary hydrostatic shock cavity might be!)
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  #25  
Old 10-26-2013, 12:57 AM
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Ahh, excuse me; but I believe I did. (Repeatedly!)
A "source" is a credible site that uses actual data to prove a statement

You've only given opinions, and anecdotal accounts that, honestly, don't seem too credible to me in light of actual data and my own personal experience

Quote:
There I used my 9mm EDC to put two JHP rounds into the animal's chest.
Nothing!

They almost seemed to bounce off.

So I switched magazines and put one FMJ round into the animal's chest cavity. That round punched right through; and the animal's suffering was over in a matter of seconds.
LOL
That's simply BS

There's no way you REALLY put two hollowpoints "in his chest" at close range with no effect.

Just admit you MISSED twice, instead of trying to blame the ammo

I've read all your comments on both these threads, and I have to say I don't find you to be either very knowledgeable nor credible on this topic.

You may know about some things, but guns aren't one of them

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  #26  
Old 10-26-2013, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
A "source" is a credible site that uses actual data to prove a statement

You've only given opinions, and anecdotal accounts that, honestly, don't seem too credible to me in light of actual data and my own personal experience



LOL
That's simply BS

There's no way you REALLY put two hollowpoints "in his chest" at close range with no effect.

Just admit you MISSED twice, instead of trying to blame the ammo

I've read all your comments on both these threads, and I have to say I don't find you to be either very knowledgeable nor credible on this topic.

You may know about some things, but guns aren't one of them
Your data comes from tests where bullets have been shot straight into a block of gelitan. Some of us have the ability to think outside the block.

As far as bullets not breaking through an animal skin. I had the strange issues with a opossum and a cat with matted up hair. The opossum was with a .45. I shot 5 or 6 times before this demon opossum stopped hissing at me. It was in a plastic tote and therr where holes in the tote. I know the bullets eent throug the animal but there wasn't a drop of blood. I was only couple feet away.

The cat was with a 22 in the chest, the bullet couldn't get through the hair, we had to shoot it in the head. I have had to put down a dog and a calf, both with a .45. The bullet holes are not what you think they would be.

If you hunt, next time you shot an animal look for the bullet. It probably wont make a straight clean path like you see in your beloved gelitan block.

Last edited by ROnMO; 10-26-2013 at 01:55 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-26-2013, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
Your data comes from test where bullets have been shot straight into a block of gelitan.
Don't let science hold you back.

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Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
Some of us have the ability to outside the block.
Think outside the box........? Yeah, but using words like "I believe" or "I feel" betrays that your not really thinking about it at all. Your unwilling to challenge your assumptions


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Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
As far as bullets not breaking through an animal skin. I had the same issue with a possum and a cat with mated up hair.
BS..... matted hair isn't going to slow down a bullet that will pass through heavy bones.

You missed.
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  #28  
Old 10-26-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
Your data comes from tests where bullets have been shot straight into a block of gelitan.

Some of us have the ability to think outside the block.

As far as bullets not breaking through an animal skin. I had the strange issues with a opossum and a cat with matted up hair. The opossum was with a .45. I shot 5 or 6 times before this demon opossum stopped hissing at me.

It was in a plastic tote and therr where holes in the tote. I know the bullets eent throug the animal but there wasn't a drop of blood. I was only couple feet away.

The cat was with a 22 in the chest, the bullet couldn't get through the hair, we had to shoot it in the head.

I have had to put down a dog and a calf, both with a .45. The bullet holes are not what you think they would be.

If you hunt, next time you shot an animal look for the bullet. It probably wont make a straight clean path like you see in your beloved gelitan block.
More anecdotal evidence of POOR SHOOTING

If you were "only a couple of feet away" you should have made ONE killing shot.

If you had HIT the cat in the chest, it WOULD have penetrated

I have to call BS on your stories too.

They defy all the laws of physics, and are contrary to anything I've ever experienced in over 50 years of hunting and shooting

Where do you and Stinger live that produces all these "bullet proof" animals?

As I told Stinger, don't blame your poor skills on the AMMO
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  #29  
Old 10-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
A "source" is a credible site that uses actual data to prove a statement

You've only given opinions, and anecdotal accounts that, honestly, don't seem too credible to me in light of actual data and my own personal experience

LOL
That's simply BS

There's no way you REALLY put two hollowpoints "in his chest" at close range with no effect.

Just admit you MISSED twice, instead of trying to blame the ammo

I've read all your comments on both these threads, and I have to say I don't find you to be either very knowledgeable nor credible on this topic.

You may know about some things, but guns aren't one of them
You know, sometimes, I need to remember where I am. You, too, are only expressing opinions. One of the differences between you, and me is that among a large circle of peers my opinions are both sought after and carefully considered - EXCEPT, of course, on the ridiculous internet.

Here it seems to be inevitable that, too often when I go on-line, I've got to take this sort of intellectual grief and ridicule from certain others like you. I KNOW BETTER THAN TO TELL LIES. I'm much too old, and much too close to God to do something as ill-considered as that.

So, I have to wonder: Between the two of us which one has ever - even once in his life - been sought out by, both state and federal law enforcement agents and asked to give a technical opinion? (Not you, correct!) Which one of us has trained 1,000's of young students on how to safely and skillfully use firearms? (Again not you, correct!) Which one of us has had the son of a prominent government law enforcement agent delivered to him by a concerned father with the request, 'I'm his father; he won't really listen to me; but he will listen to you; so I'd very much appreciate it if you'd teach him how to shoot.'

The man who made that request of me? He was a senior government agent who'd been throughout his long law enforcement career - and by his own estimation - in more than several hundred armed encounters; and I don't know how many actual gunfights. Twice in my life I've taken standing ovations from large audiences of police officers as I came off a firing line. How about you - Anything like that ever happen to you?

In the world in which I live NOBODY would dare say to my face any of the pseudo-intellectual crap you have just posted. I'm not dumber than the guy next to me; I'm (historically) smarter. I'm not less skilled at my avocation of firearms and how to use them well; I'm more skilled than many of the so-called, 'trainers' and shooting school gurus I run into on the Internet.

I AM, 'A SOURCE' - Just one with whom you presently disagree and refuse to take seriously. It's OK, though. I'm old enough to understand that anyone who is really good at what he does is - for whatever peculiar intellectual reasons - rarely taken seriously by others.

Missing my shots isn't something I'm famous for. If I tell you that I put two rounds into an animal, and it both absorbed the hits, remained sentient, and stayed much too alive for my intended purpose THEN THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED! If you believe otherwise, well, that's now your opinion; and, as I've been careful to point out, between the two of us I'm positive that it's my opinion other gunmen usually listen to.

For more than 30 years I earned a very good living by analyzing and manipulating data. Unlike you I know what numerous technical reports and statistical data are really worth. One of the reasons I took early retirement is because of my personal unwillingness to provide any number of America's largest banking and investment houses with precisely the skewered data and slanted studies they were only too willing to pay for.

By the way, one of the last young men I trained with a rifle, graduated from one of America's premier military academies as the outstanding marksman in his class. He, then, went on to become a decorated Army officer and sniper of considerable reputation. Sometimes I wonder to myself if he would ever have been able to do those things if I hadn't spent dozens and dozens of hours training him in what Cooper called, 'The Art of the Rifle'? (Again, anything like this ever happen to you? Probably not, huh!)

You think I can't shoot and handle firearms? You think that I don't know what I'm talking about? You imagine that I'm just another gun forum schmuck running his ridiculous mouth on the Internet in the same absurd manner that you do! NO! That is not me. In a way I suppose that I deserve being lambasted by, 'cyberspace hoodoos' like you. I mean I'm the one who went onto the Internet and posted - All the while knowing that a large part of the audience was going to be made up of loudmouthed and simpleminded jerks with internet privileges equal to, and no different than my own.

Makes me glad that there's a God in Heaven; and it gives me comfort to recall that Christ warned us, 'A man shall answer for his every single word, thought, and deed - Right from the largest to the very smallest of both thoughts and actions.' You post on the Internet as if there is no real consequence to your behavior. I, on the other hand, do not. Like I said: I know better than to lie. Neither would I be quick to, 'bear false witness' against any man in the same audacious manner that you have done with me.

My opinion? I strongly believe that you would have been much better off to keep your ill-considered thoughts to yourself. Failing that you should have, at the very least, couched your opinions in more dialectic and socially acceptable terms. (That's right! Cyberspace or not, I recognize with whom I'm dealing; and I'm able to easily ascertain your IQ and particular talents far better than you've been able to discover mine.)

I know my opinions are divergent; but I, also, know that I'm right. Were the situation reversed I would have replied to you in a more circumspect, polite, and analytical manner; but, hey, you've just got to be you - Right!




PS: Perhaps, you should have paid more careful attention to my sig line. Had you done so it might have tipped you off, and you'd have thought twice BEFORE jumping in and, 'running your mouth'.
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  #30  
Old 10-26-2013, 11:04 AM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
Don't let science hold you back.



Think outside the box........? Yeah, but using words like "I believe" or "I feel" betrays that your not really thinking about it at all. Your unwilling to challenge your assumptions




BS..... matted hair isn't going to slow down a bullet that will pass through heavy bones.

You missed.
I am expressing opinions and assumptions. Part of my job deals with testing new equipment. I am a user rep for new equipment. Army Sgt if you are in the Army I can give you my AKO info and you can even see who I am. I am nobody special just another cog but you can then maybe understand where I am coming from. If you test your product in gelitan that only tells you how they perform in gelatin. When it comes to a actual body the ammo people don't test on living animals.

There is no actual legit testing, unless there somebody actual out there kidnapping and murdering people under controlled conditions.

As far as .22 and pentrarting. I built a small section of a wall with two sheets of dry wall and a half inch of cement board and at greater than 10 feet a .22 high velocity defense rounds wouldn't penetrate that.

Last edited by ROnMO; 10-26-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  #31  
Old 10-26-2013, 03:33 PM
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You know, sometimes, I need to remember where I am. You, too, are only expressing opinions. One of the differences between you, and me is that among a large circle of peers my opinions are both sought after and carefully considered - EXCEPT, of course, on the ridiculous internet.

Here it seems to be inevitable that, too often when I go on-line, I've got to take this sort of intellectual grief and ridicule from certain others like you. I KNOW BETTER THAN TO TELL LIES. I'm much too old, and much too close to God to do something as ill-considered as that.

So, I have to wonder: Between the two of us which one has ever - even once in his life - been sought out by, both state and federal law enforcement agents and asked to give a technical opinion? (Not you, correct!) Which one of us has trained 1,000's of young students on how to safely and skillfully use firearms? (Again not you, correct!) Which one of us has had the son of a prominent government law enforcement agent delivered to him by a concerned father with the request, 'I'm his father; he won't really listen to me; but he will listen to you; so I'd very much appreciate it if you'd teach him how to shoot.'

The man who made that request of me? He was a senior government agent who'd been throughout his long law enforcement career - and by his own estimation - in more than several hundred armed encounters; and I don't know how many actual gunfights. Twice in my life I've taken standing ovations from large audiences of police officers as I came off a firing line. How about you - Anything like that ever happen to you?

In the world in which I live NOBODY would dare say to my face any of the pseudo-intellectual crap you have just posted. I'm not dumber than the guy next to me; I'm (historically) smarter. I'm not less skilled at my avocation of firearms and how to use them well; I'm more skilled than many of the so-called, 'trainers' and shooting school gurus I run into on the Internet.

I AM, 'A SOURCE' - Just one with whom you presently disagree and refuse to take seriously. It's OK, though. I'm old enough to understand that anyone who is really good at what he does is - for whatever peculiar intellectual reasons - rarely taken seriously by others.

Missing my shots isn't something I'm famous for. If I tell you that I put two rounds into an animal, and it both absorbed the hits, remained sentient, and stayed much too alive for my intended purpose THEN THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED! If you believe otherwise, well, that's now your opinion; and, as I've been careful to point out, between the two of us I'm positive that it's my opinion other gunmen usually listen to.

For more than 30 years I earned a very good living by analyzing and manipulating data. Unlike you I know what numerous technical reports and statistical data are really worth. One of the reasons I took early retirement is because of my personal unwillingness to provide any number of America's largest banking and investment houses with precisely the skewered data and slanted studies they were only too willing to pay for.

By the way, one of the last young men I trained with a rifle, graduated from one of America's premier military academies as the outstanding marksman in his class. He, then, went on to become a decorated Army officer and sniper of considerable reputation. Sometimes I wonder to myself if he would ever have been able to do those things if I hadn't spent dozens and dozens of hours training him in what Cooper called, 'The Art of the Rifle'? (Again, anything like this ever happen to you? Probably not, huh!)

You think I can't shoot and handle firearms? You think that I don't know what I'm talking about? You imagine that I'm just another gun forum schmuck running his ridiculous mouth on the Internet in the same absurd manner that you do! NO! That is not me. In a way I suppose that I deserve being lambasted by, 'cyberspace hoodoos' like you. I mean I'm the one who went onto the Internet and posted - All the while knowing that a large part of the audience was going to be made up of loudmouthed and simpleminded jerks with internet privileges equal to, and no different than my own.

Makes me glad that there's a God in Heaven; and it gives me comfort to recall that Christ warned us, 'A man shall answer for his every single word, thought, and deed - Right from the largest to the very smallest of both thoughts and actions.' You post on the Internet as if there is no real consequence to your behavior. I, on the other hand, do not. Like I said: I know better than to lie. Neither would I be quick to, 'bear false witness' against any man in the same audacious manner that you have done with me.

My opinion? I strongly believe that you would have been much better off to keep your ill-considered thoughts to yourself. Failing that you should have, at the very least, couched your opinions in more dialectic and socially acceptable terms. (That's right! Cyberspace or not, I recognize with whom I'm dealing; and I'm able to easily ascertain your IQ and particular talents far better than you've been able to discover mine.)

I know my opinions are divergent; but I, also, know that I'm right. Were the situation reversed I would have replied to you in a more circumspect, polite, and analytical manner; but, hey, you've just got to be you - Right!




PS: Perhaps, you should have paid more careful attention to my sig line. Had you done so it might have tipped you off, and you'd have thought twice BEFORE jumping in and, 'running your mouth'.
Hubris, Hubris, false bravado, ad hominem attacks, claims of fame without proof, claims of skill without proof, claims of beneficial government connections (good ol boy club) without proof, and more.

All couched now in pseudo-Faithful hominy. yay.

All in all, there has been some improvement in your posts. Your method and style of insulting everyone has stepped up.
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  #32  
Old 10-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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I am expressing opinions and assumptions. Part of my job deals with testing new equipment. I am a user rep for new equipment. Army Sgt if you are in the Army I can give you my AKO info and you can even see who I am. I am nobody special just another cog but you can then maybe understand where I am coming from. If you test your product in gelitan that only tells you how they perform in gelatin. When it comes to a actual body the ammo people don't test on living animals.

There is no actual legit testing, unless there somebody actual out there kidnapping and murdering people under controlled conditions.

As far as .22 and pentrarting. I built a small section of a wall with two sheets of dry wall and a half inch of cement board and at greater than 10 feet a .22 high velocity defense rounds wouldn't penetrate that.
I am no longer active and do not have an AKO account. I hated that wonky junk.

Gelatin is testing equipment in and of itself. Like dial calipers, and delton guages.
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  #33  
Old 10-26-2013, 06:44 PM
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I know my opinions are divergent; but I, also, know that I'm right. Were the situation reversed I would have replied to you in a more circumspect, polite, and analytical manner; but, hey, you've just got to be you - Right!
You MISTAKENLY think you're "right"
If you couldn't kill a coon at point blank range with 9mm JHP's you're simply not

Quote:
among a large circle of peers my opinions are both sought after and carefully considered
P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute"

Quote:
have to wonder: Between the two of us which one has ever - even once in his life - been sought out by, both state and federal law enforcement agents and asked to give a technical opinion? (Not you, correct!
Wrong again

Quote:
In the world in which I live NOBODY would dare say to my face any of the pseudo-intellectual crap you have just posted. I'm not dumber than the guy next to me; I'm (historically) smarter. I'm not less skilled at my avocation of firearms and how to use them well; I'm more skilled than many of the so-called, 'trainers' and shooting school gurus I run into on the Internet.
I don't live in that fantasy land where you're a legend in your own mind.
I live in the real world, where folks are judged by the knowledge they display, and not by their inflated opinions of themselves

Quote:
You imagine that I'm just another gun forum schmuck running his ridiculous mouth on the Internet in the same absurd manner that you do!
I don't IMAGINE that at all.
I've read your posts and can see you don't really KNOW half of what you claim to know. You ramble on with claims of super human powers, and then admit it took you three shots to dispatch an already wounded animal from arms length.

Peddle your BS to someone who will fall for it
I don't buy it

Last edited by Bearfootfarm; 10-26-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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  #34  
Old 10-26-2013, 06:52 PM
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Peddle your BS to someone who will fall for it
I don't buy it
Seconded!

Caveat Emptor, to anyone that would be fool enough to listen to you.
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  #35  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:35 AM
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I am no longer active and do not have an AKO account. I hated that wonky junk.

Gelatin is testing equipment in and of itself. Like dial calipers, and delton guages.
what do they test? I believe you are talking about testing / calibration.

Last edited by ROnMO; 10-27-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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  #36  
Old 10-27-2013, 02:48 AM
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what do they test? I believe you are talking about testing / calibration.
Seriously?
What do they test?

10% Ballistic Gelatin has long been recognized as a material that most closely resembles the consistancy of human FLESH (not just "skin")

The way a hollowpoint performs in gelatin is nearly identical to how it performs in human tissue

Half the time you argue hollowpoints won't expand anyway, and the other half of the time you argue they expand too much.

People have shot gelatin wrapped in fabric to simulate clothing, and the majority of the time the bullets STILL expand AND penetrate to ADEQUATE depths.

Round nose and pointed FMJ's are the LEAST destructive firearm projectile designs, and their only practical use besides target shooting is hunting large, dangerous game, or fur bearing animals, to minimize hide damage
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:35 AM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
Seriously?
What do they test?

10% Ballistic Gelatin has long been recognized as a material that most closely resembles the consistancy of human FLESH (not just "skin")

The way a hollowpoint performs in gelatin is nearly identical to how it performs in human tissue

Half the time you argue hollowpoints won't expand anyway, and the other half of the time you argue they expand too much.

People have shot gelatin wrapped in fabric to simulate clothing, and the majority of the time the bullets STILL expand AND penetrate to ADEQUATE depths.

Round nose and pointed FMJ's are the LEAST destructive firearm projectile designs, and their only practical use besides target shooting is hunting large, dangerous game, or fur bearing animals, to minimize hide damage
I don't mind you answering but this question was directed at Army SGT.
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:19 PM
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ArmySGT. Male ArmySGT. is offline
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Originally Posted by ROnMO View Post
what do they test? I believe you are talking about testing / calibration.
  • Bullet performance in a medium that simulates the density of muscle and internal organs.
  • Bullet penetration (depth)
  • Bullet expansion
  • Bullet design performance (breakage, shedding the jacket)
  • Bullet performance as sub 1000fps (subsonic) depth, expansion, remains intact.
  • Bullet performance at 1600-1800 fps (+P+)
  • Bullet performance at 2000fps (carbine possible speeds for +P+)
  • Bullet composition (lead, bismuth, ceramic, tungsten)
  • Bullet performance with various twists or depth of rifling
  • Bullet performance with barrels of various length (1" to 16" in pistol calibers)
  • Bullet performance at various distances (point blank, 6", 12", out to 10, 20, 30, 40 feet)
  • Bullet performance through silk, denim, polyester, wool, leather, cotton.
  • Bullet performance after exiting one 18wx12d gelatin block and penetrating another.
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  #39  
Old 10-28-2013, 10:45 AM
ROnMO ROnMO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
  • Bullet performance in a medium that simulates the density of muscle and internal organs.
  • Bullet penetration (depth)
  • Bullet expansion
  • Bullet design performance (breakage, shedding the jacket)
  • Bullet performance as sub 1000fps (subsonic) depth, expansion, remains intact.
  • Bullet performance at 1600-1800 fps (+P+)
  • Bullet performance at 2000fps (carbine possible speeds for +P+)
  • Bullet composition (lead, bismuth, ceramic, tungsten)
  • Bullet performance with various twists or depth of rifling
  • Bullet performance with barrels of various length (1" to 16" in pistol calibers)
  • Bullet performance at various distances (point blank, 6", 12", out to 10, 20, 30, 40 feet)
  • Bullet performance through silk, denim, polyester, wool, leather, cotton.
  • Bullet performance after exiting one 18wx12d gelatin block and penetrating another.
That is all fine BUT:

Any of it tested in it actual target? What you talk about is repeatable but not realistic. I will question and disregard any test that is not realistic. That is my job, it is what I do. I deal with a few types of testing, one verifies the item does what it says it will do, that test has to be realistic. Another is that it operates as claimed by the people who will use it in an environment that it will be used in against relevant threats. This way we can be as sure that the operator understands how to use it and it performs as it should.

Standing shooting at static piece of gelatin does not make the cut for what I will accept as legit testing. It is not a realistic environment or a relevant threat.

I am not saying the HP will or will not perform, I am just rejecting the gelatin testing because it does not meet the standards I adhere to in my own work.

It just isn't good enough for me.

Last edited by ROnMO; 10-28-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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  #40  
Old 10-28-2013, 11:28 AM
Trav Male Trav is offline
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The FBI spent a lot of time and money answering this very question. I'm going with hollow points.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/fbi-handgun-ballistics/
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