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Old 02-07-2014, 06:50 PM
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CarolAnn Female CarolAnn is offline
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Default LP, natural gas prices & turkeys

Someone on the board mentioned that the meat growers in her area weren't getting fuel for their operations because of LP shortages due to the cold weather - that lots were shutting down rather than have their animals freeze. So I wrote to all my brothers and sisters to buy meat NOW - because sure enough, this will resolve sooner or later into huge price jumps in meat prices when that shortage hits us.

My brother wrote this:

Carol, 3 years ago I bought propane for $ .69 a gallon. This week I paid $3.79 if I bought at least 200 gallons so I bought the minimum, 200 gallons.

One of propane's unique features is that it is not produced for its own sake, but is a by-product of two other processes: natural gas processing and petroleum refining.
Natural gas plant production of propane primarily involves extracting materials, such as propane and butane, from natural gas to prevent these liquids from condensing and causing operational problems in natural gas pipelines. Similarly, when oil refineries make major products such as motor gasoline and heating oil, some propane is produced as a by-product of those processes. It is important to understand that the by-product nature of propane production means that the volume made available from natural gas processing and oil refining cannot be adjusted when prices and/or demand for propane fluctuate.
In addition to these two processes, propane demand is met by imports and by using stored inventories. Although imports provide the smallest (about 10%) component of U.S. propane supply, they are vital when consumption exceeds available domestic supplies. Propane is imported by land (via pipeline and rail car from Canada) and by sea (in tankers from such countries as Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuela, and Norway).
Randy said that the turkey growers for Butterball were being charged $5.50 per gallon for propane. They told Butterball not to send them any more turkeys to raise and Butterball said they had a contract to raise them but that Butterball would pay for the excess propane charges. Get ready to spend your November paycheck on Turkey-Day.
There is a huge reserve of Natural Gas and most of the wells here in Arkansas are throttled down because they have no more storage capacity. Sounds like a deliberate man made shortage to me. Ask T. Boone Pickens.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:53 PM
blackpowderbill Male blackpowderbill is offline
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Default gonna starve us all

That's not good news. I just paid $3.95 per gallon and my supplier let me go dang near empty. The SOB didn't top me off in Nov or Dec.
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolAnn View Post
Someone on the board mentioned that the meat growers in her area weren't getting fuel for their operations because of LP shortages due to the cold weather - that lots were shutting down rather than have their animals freeze. So I wrote to all my brothers and sisters to buy meat NOW - because sure enough, this will resolve sooner or later into huge price jumps in meat prices when that shortage hits us.

My brother wrote this:

Carol, 3 years ago I bought propane for $ .69 a gallon. This week I paid $3.79 if I bought at least 200 gallons so I bought the minimum, 200 gallons.

One of propane's unique features is that it is not produced for its own sake, but is a by-product of two other processes: natural gas processing and petroleum refining.
Natural gas plant production of propane primarily involves extracting materials, such as propane and butane, from natural gas to prevent these liquids from condensing and causing operational problems in natural gas pipelines. Similarly, when oil refineries make major products such as motor gasoline and heating oil, some propane is produced as a by-product of those processes. It is important to understand that the by-product nature of propane production means that the volume made available from natural gas processing and oil refining cannot be adjusted when prices and/or demand for propane fluctuate.
In addition to these two processes, propane demand is met by imports and by using stored inventories. Although imports provide the smallest (about 10%) component of U.S. propane supply, they are vital when consumption exceeds available domestic supplies. Propane is imported by land (via pipeline and rail car from Canada) and by sea (in tankers from such countries as Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuela, and Norway).
Randy said that the turkey growers for Butterball were being charged $5.50 per gallon for propane. They told Butterball not to send them any more turkeys to raise and Butterball said they had a contract to raise them but that Butterball would pay for the excess propane charges. Get ready to spend your November paycheck on Turkey-Day.
There is a huge reserve of Natural Gas and most of the wells here in Arkansas are throttled down because they have no more storage capacity. Sounds like a deliberate man made shortage to me. Ask T. Boone Pickens.
Thanks Carol.
Sounds like the gasoline scam a few years back huh?
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:37 PM
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Earlier this week I talked to the office at the place I get my propane...
They said new customers in the door were at a rate of $4.59... I'm still contracted at $1.89 until the end of May... And the $4.59 price is down from mid $5.00 something...

I've heard nothing about the turkey producers around here having problems getting fuel.... Or adjusting there production in any way.... So far....

Today I did get a generic mailing from the propane company with all the usual things.... Turn down the thermostat, turn down the gas water heater, don't cook more than necessary, don't use out door heaters indoors, and all the usual safety things....

The woman I usually talk to in the office saying, in a round about way, they haven't had a problem getting gas, but are being cautious about the situation so they don't have any problems hopefully.....

Good luck....
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:16 PM
blackpowderbill Male blackpowderbill is offline
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Default group buy

To bad some of us didn't live closer to each other. We could do a group purchase 4 or 5,000 gallons and top off our own tanks.

Note to self:
I will have a waste oil burner in the new place when I retire.
I will have a coal/wood cook stove.
I will have some sort of solar heat for domestic water in the summer.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:11 AM
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I have heard some people say it is about $2000 to fill a propane tank now. We just bought a smaller place, and the first thing my husband demanded was that we pick a home with city (natural) gas. He also wanted a city sewer because septic problems were so common the last couple of years with all the flooding. It's really hard to find a place that isn't in a big city, but has all the city amenities. It is much more cost effective that way though. The only way to live in the country cost-effectively anymore is to heat with wood and have a secondary option to a septic system like a humanure system of some sort. That is why these sorts of site are so helpful to people to learn to live in the country on a budget.

I know you can make your own heating gas from chicken poo, hay, water in barrels. I know my grandparents did that. It makes methane (?), and they burned that for cooking, hot water, etc. I don't know exactly how grandpa did it, but he had a system of 4 old metal barrels with lids and pipe on them. He just scraped out the chicken house and other manure plus straw and put it in the first old barrel to rot. I'm sure it would still work today if someone knew how to hook it up and regulate it for their gas needs.
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:27 PM
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Tim Horton Male Tim Horton is online now
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Yes..... You can make methane out of poop..... There are several large milking operations around here that do that... However.....

The safest way to manage to use methane is to cogererate.... That is generate electricity.... They are using about a million or gallons to create enough gas to create enough gas to generate enough electricity to make it pay back...... And to generate enough electricity to come close to there uses....

The small time methane user CAN produce gas, but that only makes a small amount of electricity, and a longer pay back...... And on and on....

Methane systems also take monitoring and maintenance.....

I'm sure the home/small methane process has progressed in the efficiency of the systems and the materials used for small systems....

I guess home made bio diesel would be a good comparison... It can be done, it takes an investment, and lots of hands on to produce....

Good luck...
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:37 AM
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All this just before the "executive order" to raise the minimum wage.
Does anyone smell a rat?
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:48 AM
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Prices are are falling back down , it was pure supply versus demand.

Ref the new minimum wage for new govt contracts. I am not sure it means much since most govt contracts fall under Davis Bacon wage rate or SCA ( service contract act). SCA is basically the basis for living wage laws at local level and set minimums . Most are above $10.50/hr.
But it looks good in print and as a run up to midterms
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 02-16-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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  #10  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:27 PM
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Default prices going up

well from reading all this it looks like it's not just my area that has prices rising to crazy levels- or at least what I think is crazy levels. The more dependent ya are on energy, of any type that ya gotta buy, the more it costs to live.
Like Gramps use to say "Prohibition was better than no alcohol at all"!
sometimes ya just gotta laugh to keep from going just a little crazy...
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Old 03-13-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
There is a huge reserve of Natural Gas and most of the wells here in Arkansas are throttled down because they have no more storage capacity. Sounds like a deliberate man made shortage to me. Ask T. Boone Pickens.
"Huge" reserves of Natural Gas doesn't help Propane users, or those in areas affected by pipline problems

The rise in prices has been caused more by higher than normal demands and distribution problems rather than a lack of resources
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Old 03-14-2014, 02:23 PM
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Default deliberate shortage

couldn't agree more - just follow the money trail...
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Old 03-16-2014, 09:07 PM
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Just watched NBC news--its expected to rise 54%---unreal.
Folks know what they need to do for nxt winter---SAVE for expensive energy.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:41 AM
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Energy of all sorts is going to become much more expensive. We have two choices. If we don't want to pay the higher prices, we need to use MUCH LESS. The suppliers have contracts to "move" so much. If they don't move it, their contracts get out of sorts. They will lower the price to "move" the product.

The other choice is to pay it and whine about it.
You do the math.
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Old 03-18-2014, 03:13 PM
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Just got done comparing natural gas costs for Dec-Mar billing 2012/2013 against the same months 2013/2014. We've kept the wood stove going since November. If we hadn't been out of town for a few days that month, we'd have barely used the furnace. Our heat, stove, grill, dryer, and hot water heater are natural gas.

We used only 6 more therms this year than last. Average bill was still less than $70 per month albeit this year cost an average of $5 more per month. We fared far better than most in our area. Programmable thermostat settings were the same this year as last.

Electric bill is also less based on my estimated cost of the heated floor (which we did not need to turn on this year). We have a "gutter heater" which does consume extra Kwh but greatly decreases damage to the roof.

Suffice it to say we moved the wood stove to our current home and if we move again, it comes with us.

There is expense for fuel for keeping the wood supply stocked. But it also keeps us healthy. Plus we sold enough wood to more than cover our heating costs plus the costs to cut/split personal and for-sale wood.
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Old 03-18-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolAnn View Post
Someone on the board mentioned that the meat growers in her area weren't getting fuel for their operations because of LP shortages due to the cold weather - that lots were shutting down rather than have their animals freeze. So I wrote to all my brothers and sisters to buy meat NOW - because sure enough, this will resolve sooner or later into huge price jumps in meat prices when that shortage hits us.

My brother wrote this:

Carol, 3 years ago I bought propane for $ .69 a gallon. This week I paid $3.79 if I bought at least 200 gallons so I bought the minimum, 200 gallons.

One of propane's unique features is that it is not produced for its own sake, but is a by-product of two other processes: natural gas processing and petroleum refining.
Natural gas plant production of propane primarily involves extracting materials, such as propane and butane, from natural gas to prevent these liquids from condensing and causing operational problems in natural gas pipelines. Similarly, when oil refineries make major products such as motor gasoline and heating oil, some propane is produced as a by-product of those processes. It is important to understand that the by-product nature of propane production means that the volume made available from natural gas processing and oil refining cannot be adjusted when prices and/or demand for propane fluctuate.
In addition to these two processes, propane demand is met by imports and by using stored inventories. Although imports provide the smallest (about 10%) component of U.S. propane supply, they are vital when consumption exceeds available domestic supplies. Propane is imported by land (via pipeline and rail car from Canada) and by sea (in tankers from such countries as Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuela, and Norway).
Randy said that the turkey growers for Butterball were being charged $5.50 per gallon for propane. They told Butterball not to send them any more turkeys to raise and Butterball said they had a contract to raise them but that Butterball would pay for the excess propane charges. Get ready to spend your November paycheck on Turkey-Day.
There is a huge reserve of Natural Gas and most of the wells here in Arkansas are throttled down because they have no more storage capacity. Sounds like a deliberate man made shortage to me. Ask T. Boone Pickens.
FWIW, any turkey raised at this time of year is not going to be your thanksgiving turkey come Nov. The turkeys that will end up on your table are raised in the summer so they won't need all the fuel. That being said, turkey growers raise way more turkeys than the few measly birds sold for holidays. The average turkey that goes to slaughter from the factory bird farms is way heavier than anything you could put in an oven. Most turkeys raised are used for turkey products: ground turkey, drumsticks, turkey jerky, put into hot dogs and other products. Poultry is going to be your cheapest meat though poultry growers will be able to take advantage of that as the real high dollar meat will be beef and pork but the fuel situation is not what will be making the increase in prices on that, but other factors.
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