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  #21  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:02 PM
hunter88 hunter88 is offline
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You guys have not answered my question. Do you think the Amish at evil and wrong to.raise their children this way?? Are they being brain washed and forced to.live a bad way???
Amish children walk away from their lifestyle all the time, and Amish children are not kept on the farm never allowed to leave.

In the story here the teenage children have never left the compound so it's not the same. Amish children have many opportunities to interact with those outside the Amish community.

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If we looks.at.your life style. Would we be shocked? I don't drink alcohol, so I think any one that does drink should not be around children.
I do not let my granddaughter help me bottle the beer I make. But later we do all sit down at the same table to eat supper, of course I wipe it down first. I'm going to assume that puts me on your bad list.

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I carry a firearm every where, but there are some that think it wrong to be around children.
So you're saying to carry a gun around children? Or are you saying you're never around children so you carry a gun all the time?

And don't worry about your answer. Unlike your position on alcohol and children, I really don't care what you do. Basically because it's none of my business.
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  #22  
Old 08-28-2015, 07:15 AM
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I'm not keen to take sides in the discussion about whether or not JJ Gray is doing the right thing but I offer this much:

* Even while they're living "off grid" they're very reliant on outside help, as are all of us. They even had Chuck Norris on their side for a while.

* John Joe's wife has been vocal about standing beside her man, even to death, because they feel that their cause is worth it. Whether or not I agree with their cause I do admire them for being able to articulate the fact that freedom is worth the sacrifice. Agree or disagree, that's the spirit that severed us from the mother land.

* If I understand some of the back story correctly, John Joe was on the radar for openly discussing the tyranny that he felt was encroaching upon all our freedom. He is/or was a leader in one of Texas' Militia groups so I figure he's not alone in his views.

* I'm not going to take sides on the grand kids (who should be adults by now). All we really heard from is the disgruntled dad. For all we know, there may be some real good reasons why their mom didn't want him around. We just don't know.
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  #23  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hunter88 View Post
Amish children walk away from their lifestyle all the time, and Amish children are not kept on the farm never allowed to leave.

In the story here the teenage children have never left the compound so it's not the same. Amish children have many opportunities to interact with those outside the Amish community.



I do not let my granddaughter help me bottle the beer I make. But later we do all sit down at the same table to eat supper, of course I wipe it down first. I'm going to assume that puts me on your bad list.



So you're saying to carry a gun around children? Or are you saying you're never around children so you carry a gun all the time?

And don't worry about your answer. Unlike your position on alcohol and children, I really don't care what you do. Basically because it's none of my business.
YES, you are right about the Amish young people. Not children since they must stay until they are of age. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is 17 in the Amish community. Then they are encouraged to try the English. My objections is that you say it is brainwashing, do you think the Amish are brainwashing the youths in their community? Possibly, but isn't good brainwashing better then the bad input that is around today

On the alcohol thing. I don't drink, but I have made it since I was 9. I make.mead now. I have to get other people to try it, to tell me.how it is. At any rate my opinion doesn't matter

As for my firearm. I teach firearm safety to kids. But I do think we should.be able to carry in schools. Not having firearms around kids is just stupid and leads to mistakes
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  #24  
Old 08-28-2015, 07:34 PM
hunter88 hunter88 is offline
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My objections is that you say it is brainwashing, do you think the Amish are brainwashing the youths in their community? Possibly, but isn't good brainwashing better then the bad input that is around today
I've never said anything about brainwashing. My only statement has been the teenage kids have not been allowed to leave the compound and the girls have been trying to meet men with a CB radio.

If you want young people to interact with others in a safe way, I can think of a lot better ways then the girls spending time on a CB radio. That's as bad as saying teenagers should find people over social sites on the internet.
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  #25  
Old 08-28-2015, 08:18 PM
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I am the one that said brainwashing and I stand by it.

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Both John Joe and Jonathan claim those old enough can leave any time they want. But when they’re told that if they do they could be arrested, questioned, and even tortured by the authorities, it’s little wonder none have made a break for it.
Filling thier heads full of lies to keep them. Is brainwashing,

Did you read the paragraph about when one of the boys gave a wrong answer to math problem he was seen as just being stubborn and in need of a beating.

Hard to believe anyone could defend this idiot !
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 08-28-2015 at 08:54 PM.
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  #26  
Old 08-29-2015, 02:02 PM
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I am the one that said brainwashing and I stand by it.



Filling thier heads full of lies to keep them. Is brainwashing,

Did you read the paragraph about when one of the boys gave a wrong answer to math problem he was seen as just being stubborn and in need of a beating.

Hard to believe anyone could defend this idiot !
I would even defend an idiot like you MF, if i thought you were right, or you were being attacked for no reason. but still would you consider what the Amish do to be brainwashing. They are told pretty much the same thing.

BTW where were the shackles you were talking about?? I did not see any
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  #27  
Old 08-29-2015, 03:38 PM
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I repeat filling thier heads with lies is brainwashing .. Pure and simple .

I guess As you mentioned in one of your previous post that is good brainwashing- telling kids they will be Tortured if they leave . The guy is sick.
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  #28  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:24 PM
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I agree with MF, you cannot compare it to the Amish, they do not tell their kids they will be arrested if they left the property. In fact they encourage them to leave for a period of time most come back home but some stay away.
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  #29  
Old 08-30-2015, 02:42 PM
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In fact they encourage them to leave for a period of time most come back home but some stay away.
Ummm yea, that is not entirely correct...

Some settlements allow for rumspringa (running around) but in reality, not very many. I have traveled and stayed in eleven Amish communities to date as a driver for a few families I am friends with. Only one allows for running around and it is certainly not 'encouraged'.

In fact, even during the running around period, most Amish youngsters still live at home and do their regular choring each day. They are just allowed more free time to explore their local world.

LOL I got the stink eye from one elder for asking about rumspringa... he took me away from any children that might overhear and made it very clear that "we don't allow it nor the word, here" and please don't say it again.

Sorry, off topic.
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  #30  
Old 08-30-2015, 10:21 PM
papa bear papa bear is offline
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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
I agree with MF, you cannot compare it to the Amish, they do not tell their kids they will be arrested if they left the property. In fact they encourage them to leave for a period of time most come back home but some stay away.
you really don't know the Amish do you? I have heard them many times tell their children that the English would throw them in jail for no reason, or they would break up their families. but that is also a generalization just like some are making of the family
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  #31  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:59 PM
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you really don't know the Amish do you? I have heard them many times tell their children that the English would throw them in jail for no reason, or they would break up their families. but that is also a generalization just like some are making of the family
Can't say I do know them all that well but then they are a very large group located all over the US. Heard good and bad about them all.

Meanwhile this is just one family that appears to be just a little bit tinfoil for me. Not my neighbor and if any laws were broken sooner or later they will wait the old man out and arrest him. Heck of a way to live never leave your
little piece of property.
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  #32  
Old 09-01-2015, 04:22 PM
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Can't say I do know them all that well but then they are a very large group located all over the US. Heard good and bad about them all.

Meanwhile this is just one family that appears to be just a little bit tinfoil for me. Not my neighbor and if any laws were broken sooner or later they will wait the old man out and arrest him. Heck of a way to live never leave your
little piece of property.
they have Pockets around the nation. they do stick together. but you are right you do hear good and bad. but they also have sects too, that are different from one to another

but since there are no charges against him. there no need for a Wacko
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  #33  
Old 09-11-2015, 12:47 AM
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When Elizabeth accidentally set a van alight “smoking when I weren’t supposed to”, she was forced to sleep outside in the winter snow for two months
This is straight from the link.....sorry but there is alot more to the story..... the way I see it, .... throwing anyone out into the snow to live because of punishment, goes way beyond child abuse, I rather call it torture. These people are off their rocker.....and raising children with a criminal is not teaching them moral values. This is not self reliance it is part of the problem, we have criminals out of control, teaching little ones how to be criminals. .
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  #34  
Old 09-11-2015, 07:11 AM
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This is straight from the link.....sorry but there is alot more to the story..... the way I see it, .... throwing anyone out into the snow to live because of punishment, goes way beyond child abuse,
You may have missed my muted reference to the hyperbole in the story. Around these parts we marvel at snow that sticks. And if snow stays on the ground for a couple of days we're extra excited. But two months of snow probably never happened since the last ice age. In other words - the disciplinary action might not have been as bad as it sounded.

Now - I try real hard not to meddle in how families raise kids. I'm not necessarily taking this family's side but in the interest of understanding the family dynamics consider this perspective:

Is there anything particularly wrong with a family raising their youngsters "off grid?" Some of my best memories are from grandma's house which was none too different from how these folks live. It's not a stretch that some city folks would cringe at the lifestyles of some of our BHM forum members.

So . . . let's say we're raising younguns not to rely on all the niceties. For some families, confiscating an iPhone would be a grievous punishment. For an off grid family, spending a few weeks a little further off grid might be the equivalent of iPhone banishment. It's just a matter of perspective. And besides, if the discipline saved the child from a lifetime of smoking maybe it is a good investment.

Now . . . some might disagree with the political views of this family but they do have the support of fine folks like Chuck Norris.

And for a bit more Texas flavor: We're home to the city of Waco, a town that has a reputation for botching the protection of human rights. You might remember the Branch Davidians and how no less than Janet Reno ended up with blood on their hands after an overblown response to a deranged religious leader. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the Davidians, the way they were handled was nothing less than governmental tyranny (or at the very least, stupidity).

Right this very minute, Waco is again in the news with what may turn out to be another overstep of government powers. The city and state may be guilty of falsely imprisoning 177 motorcyclists, violating due process and trumping up false charges to arrest anyone who had a motorcycle in an alleged gang war.

My point is merely that John Joe Gray may not be as deranged as he seems. I can't be the judge.
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  #35  
Old 12-02-2015, 01:29 PM
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The article says to me that the grandpa was a nut job from the get go planning to blow up roads throughout TX. It makes me wonder if one of the grandkids will hightail it out of there one day.
It also makes me wonder what one of the grand kids might do "when they do" hightail it out of there one of these days, and I am 100% sure that they will, one day. You can't keep a kid boxed up like that forever, I don't think, anyway. I know danged sure, that 47 acres wouldn't have been enough to keep me boxed in, by a long ways.
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  #36  
Old 12-02-2015, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
You may have missed my muted reference to the hyperbole in the story. Around these parts we marvel at snow that sticks. And if snow stays on the ground for a couple of days we're extra excited. But two months of snow probably never happened since the last ice age. In other words - the disciplinary action might not have been as bad as it sounded.

Now - I try real hard not to meddle in how families raise kids. I'm not necessarily taking this family's side but in the interest of understanding the family dynamics consider this perspective:

Is there anything particularly wrong with a family raising their youngsters "off grid?" Some of my best memories are from grandma's house which was none too different from how these folks live. It's not a stretch that some city folks would cringe at the lifestyles of some of our BHM forum members.

So . . . let's say we're raising younguns not to rely on all the niceties. For some families, confiscating an iPhone would be a grievous punishment. For an off grid family, spending a few weeks a little further off grid might be the equivalent of iPhone banishment. It's just a matter of perspective. And besides, if the discipline saved the child from a lifetime of smoking maybe it is a good investment.

Now . . . some might disagree with the political views of this family but they do have the support of fine folks like Chuck Norris.

And for a bit more Texas flavor: We're home to the city of Waco, a town that has a reputation for botching the protection of human rights. You might remember the Branch Davidians and how no less than Janet Reno ended up with blood on their hands after an overblown response to a deranged religious leader. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the Davidians, the way they were handled was nothing less than governmental tyranny (or at the very least, stupidity).

Right this very minute, Waco is again in the news with what may turn out to be another overstep of government powers. The city and state may be guilty of falsely imprisoning 177 motorcyclists, violating due process and trumping up false charges to arrest anyone who had a motorcycle in an alleged gang war.

My point is merely that John Joe Gray may not be as deranged as he seems. I can't be the judge.
You spoke a mouth full and I found nothing you said that I don't agree with.
Especially about the Davidians. That was purely a Clinton move to make new gun laws and it blew up in their faces.
David Kerish or whatever his last name was, was the only one out of every one of the people in the compound that they had a warrant on and they knew that he came into town every Saturday to do the shopping, yet they waiting until the AM hours to make a raid??? Why was that???
Clinton and company wanted that crap to happen, and while most people don't and won't ever believe it, they burned that compound on purpose.
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  #37  
Old 12-03-2015, 07:23 AM
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With this thread being resurrected by Fabman, Ill interject one thought and one humorous anecdote.

-It's "brainwashing" when you don;t agree with the message, but
"teaching right from wrong" when you do it.

-My cousin l iving in WI where's there's an Amish presence, was about to take her visiting grandson, 5 y/o, to an Amish store. She warned him there would be kids there who dressed and looked and acted a little differently, so don't make fun of them.

When they arrived at the store, there quietly stood two Amish kids also about 5/o, dressed as they do. The grandkid, silent at first, then walked up to them and suddenly announced in a snotty little manner "I can sing in Spanish!" ( His ma is of Mexican descent.) He breaks into his little song & dance routine while the Amish kids look on in a mixture of surprise and dismay, wondering what will happen next.

I bet their ma told them earlier,"Now some English kids may show up later and they dress and act differently, so don't make fun of them." Boy, was Ma ever right!
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  #38  
Old 12-03-2015, 08:24 PM
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lol! I wouldn't be surprised if she did just that.
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  #39  
Old 12-11-2015, 10:31 PM
OzarksLady Female OzarksLady is offline
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While as Randell says they are selfsuficient BUT
I agree the guy is a selfish jerk that Is Only thinking of himself.

But they are NOT that self-sufficient.
They have family and friends that drop stuff off at the gate all the time.

Please don't glorify these low lifes.
Those kids are brainwashed into thinking the second they step outside that gate they are going to be raped and subjected to all kinds of deprivation.

That old bastard is bat shit crazy.
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2015, 06:58 PM
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I am the off-spring of a couple who went homesteading about 1930 to be self sufficient. Being poor, poorly educated, sometimes hungry, cold, and often over worked for one's age is no picnic. I suppose it boils down to if you don't know about the outside world it doesn't affect you. But this is almost impossible today.

Eventually I quit the life when around 15 years of age. Eventually I succeeded, more of less but it could be a grind at times. The life can be a detriment to the children. Fortunately I was not subjected to any religion.

It is relatively easy to be self sufficient in a modern society, but certainly outside income is a necessity. A lot depends upon the mental capacity of those involved. But I reiterate it can be detrimental to the children, who have to function in society at large.

There is nothing romantic about being a hillbilly. Also such people generally have a large portion of their brain not functioning indicated by being religious.
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