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  #41  
Old 10-20-2015, 06:45 PM
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I saw a new article recently on just this subject, but could not find it when I added the previous comment, so the number was as much a question as statement, but to satisfy your inquiring mind and "Doubting Thomas" syndrome, I was able to locate an article which stated in part:

In testimony before congress, Sean Joyce, FBI Deputy Director revealed surveillance programs have disrupted more than 50 potential terrorist events, including at least 10 plots based inside the U.S. Four of those cases have been made public. From a Washington Post news article by Ruth Tam dated June 18, 2013. Since two years have passed since that article was written, those numbers have probably increased.

And you believe the govt.????

those reports are there for two purposes(1) to justify the enormous budget all the three letter agencies have - dhs tsa fbi CIA . And (2) most important into scaring the public do we accept giving up more of our bill of rights.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3IF8X-4zI
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:29 PM
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And you believe the govt.????

those reports are there for two purposes(1) to justify the enormous budget all the three letter agencies have - dhs tsa fbi CIA . And (2) most important into scaring the public do we accept giving up more of our bill of rights.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3IF8X-4zI
And, who was it that said the rest of us have been reading too many novels?
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  #43  
Old 10-20-2015, 10:29 PM
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While that YouTube cartoon is not a novel and is indeed historical fact it was not what I intended.
Sorry for the mistake.

Try this :

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...efore-911.html

And this:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/20...rack/?page=all

And this:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/...ne-spying.html

All those phony stories , once again , are there to support their bloated budget and make you think it ok to take our freedoms away.
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 10-20-2015 at 10:35 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2015, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by J R Adams View Post
GC and Coaltrain have pretty much nailed it.
You've got no place to go and all day to get there.
Just think - hunter gather in over grazed territory.
The real threat is your gun safe's electronic combination function stops working.

Last edited by Michael32170; 10-21-2015 at 05:49 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-23-2015, 01:29 AM
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Electronic locks seem to be the preferred choice of most people today, and what the manufacturers push, but for myself I will always choose a manual combination lock.

Last edited by Jjr; 10-23-2015 at 01:32 AM. Reason: edit grammar
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  #46  
Old 11-06-2015, 03:29 PM
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I've read a lot of fragments of info about EMP..... I have to say I understand very little about the "electronic" affects caused by a solar, nuclear, hydrogen device...

The simple explanation as I think I understand it is, any device driven by a chip is doomed...

Flywheel or other magneto driven engines will be OK..
Direct injection diesel will be OK..

The problem may be with an electric starting system.. No chip = OK.. The most that MAY be hurt is a voltage regulator..

So my older ATV (also has a pull rope), and lawn tractor with a flywheel magneto and simple starter, generator system will be OK..

My older diesel tractor with a no chip simple alternator, starter system should be OK...

Is this kinda/sorta a simple explanation to the affects of this ??

Like said... I'm most likely to be home dealing with a power outage from many many other causes than an extreme global event.. So as long as I can haul water from the lake, I can last a significant length of time more than adequately...

Take care..
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  #47  
Old 11-06-2015, 04:33 PM
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Unless motor is old and has a generator/ magneto it is toast. Alternators use diodes- which will be fried. Not just chips .
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:56 PM
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Dust Storms in the 1930's had a type of EMP(static elec) though not quite as large. Drivers had to drag chains behind their cars during the Dust Bowl because dust storms cause high static electricity and the chains would ground the cars. This helped to prevent severe electrical shocks to people when they touched other people or objects. Static electricity also became a major problem in the region, such that "blue flames leapt from barbed wire fences and well-wishers shaking hands could generate a spark so powerful it could knock them to the ground

Static electricity accompanied the storms and caused automobile ignition systems to fail and cars to stall during the storms. Motorists attached drag wires and chains to their automobiles and trucks to ground this static electricity and prevent their vehicles from stalling. Even windmills, pump handles, and cooking pans became so highly charged that a mere touch caused a good shock.
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:00 AM
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Unless motor is old and has a generator/ magneto it is toast. Alternators use diodes- which will be fried. Not just chips .
No one seems to know for sure what will happen, but most authorities say everything post 80's will be toast, with some late 70's being iffy. Some even recommend maintaining all back-up electrical parts for even 60'-70's models in Faraday Cages. Then there is a controversy about the diesels. Some say the diesels are good to go, others say not so. I can not believe the electronics on any diesels will react differently from electronics on a gasoline engine.

Then on the other hand, could it all be nothing but hype like the Y2000 Issues? That would be nice, but I'm not covering any bets. I didn't believe the Y2000 Issues "Hype" myself, but the EMP Family of Issues strikes a deeper cord in my reasoning.

Reading & studying the MIL-STD-464, recommended, gives me a headache. I am a long way from an Electrical Engineer, but not a complete idiot either, just half (the wife says ). The first quarter of the document has raised more question, rather than providing answers.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:06 AM
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Diesel or gas is not the issue. If a motor has an alternator vice an generator then it has at least two(2) diodes which emp will fry.
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  #51  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:15 AM
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MF the controversy rages way beyond the issue of alternators vs generators. Without mentioning all the modern electronics and just concentrating on 1960 model vehicles for a selected model year.

I am not a car buff, never was. A vehicle is a transportation tool to me and nothing more or less. But maintaining a fleet of vehicles with children in school (college, ours did not drive themselves to junior high and high school), I got to be a pretty skilled, largely self-taught mechanic.

Some suggest vehicles from the 1960 group selected could receive damage from an EMP detonation, to their ignition switch, starter, voltage regulator, coil, & condenser among other things. Correct me, if I am wrong, but I do not remember any of these components on the basic 1960 (Ford, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, Plymouth) vehicles containing any "electronic components," even any components what would be considered as precursors to the modern electronics first introduced in the late 70's to early 80's in most vehicles.

There was a transition from independent voltage regulators and generators to alternators and then alternators with voltage regulators incorporated into the alternator itself, which eventually became the norm.

Most proponents of the older vehicles, point to any and all modern electronics as being the components an EMP event will destroy. But a minority say the vehicles equipped with modern electronics will fair better than the older vehicles. The majority theorize the older vehicles will be the survivors, but then caution to maintain a complete array of any and all electrical components in a Faraday Cage as a precaution.

Then the variables come into play. Strength of the event, distance from the event, height when detonated, parked next to conductive building or structures, orientation of the vehicle, etc, if you can think of an issue, it probably can be deployed as a variable.

The diesel vs gasoline engine is just another aspect of the controversy, and your generator vs alternator is not all inclusive, unless you have some privileged insight the rest of the debaters are missing.

If it is, just keeping a spare alternator on hand, I'll buy a pair of spares tomorrow. But I want your guarantee the spare Alternator(s) will solve all my transportation issues following an EMP event.
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  #52  
Old 11-07-2015, 11:52 AM
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MF the controversy rages way beyond the issue of alternators vs generators. Without mentioning all the modern electronics and just concentrating on 1960 model vehicles for a selected model year.

I am not a car buff, never was. A vehicle is a transportation tool to me and nothing more or less. But maintaining a fleet of vehicles with children in school (college, ours did not drive themselves to junior high and high school), I got to be a pretty skilled, largely self-taught mechanic.

Some suggest vehicles from the 1960 group selected could receive damage from an EMP detonation, to their ignition switch, starter, voltage regulator, coil, & condenser among other things. Correct me, if I am wrong, but I do not remember any of these components on the basic 1960 (Ford, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, Plymouth) vehicles containing any "electronic components," even any components what would be considered as precursors to the modern electronics first introduced in the late 70's to early 80's in most vehicles.

There was a transition from independent voltage regulators and generators to alternators and then alternators with voltage regulators incorporated into the alternator itself, which eventually became the norm.

Most proponents of the older vehicles, point to any and all modern electronics as being the components an EMP event will destroy. But a minority say the vehicles equipped with modern electronics will fair better than the older vehicles. The majority theorize the older vehicles will be the survivors, but then caution to maintain a complete array of any and all electrical components in a Faraday Cage as a precaution.

Then the variables come into play. Strength of the event, distance from the event, height when detonated, parked next to conductive building or structures, orientation of the vehicle, etc, if you can think of an issue, it probably can be deployed as a variable.

The diesel vs gasoline engine is just another aspect of the controversy, and your generator vs alternator is not all inclusive, unless you have some privileged insight the rest of the debaters are missing.

If it is, just keeping a spare alternator on hand, I'll buy a pair of spares tomorrow. But I want your guarantee the spare Alternator(s) will solve all my transportation issues following an EMP event.


There is no controversy ( except on Internet forums )about the damage an emp attack will do on America. Any solid state electronics will be damaged.

Ref comment on gas vs diesel. The point was the type of fuel is meaningless- it is the solid state electronics on the vehicle. ( if you have a old vaccum tube radio it will be fine)

a faraday cage is nothing more than a metal box with any openings that are at least 5 times longer than wider. Typical the door has mesh gasket.
Another poster provided everyone excellent military documentation. That is the mil handbook 188 series.
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  #53  
Old 11-08-2015, 12:00 AM
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There is no controversy ( except on Internet forums )about the damage an emp attack will do on America. Any solid state electronics will be damaged.
Since you are so adamant nothing but solid state electronics will be damaged, what are your qualification to implicitly make such a call?

List 'em!
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  #54  
Old 11-08-2015, 12:07 AM
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Since you are so adamant nothing but solid state electronics will be damaged, what are your qualification to implicitly make such a call?

List 'em!
Read more carefully. I never said " nothing but".
I saiid if there is solid state components they will be fried.

Then go read the source I provided if you want info.
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  #55  
Old 11-08-2015, 12:14 AM
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Typical the door has mesh gasket.
Another poster provided everyone excellent military documentation. That is the mil handbook 188 series.
Mil handbook 188 series?

Please look back and see what was referenced, and I believe you will see it was MIL-STD-464. (There may have been an older or earlier series 188.)

I have the source referenced before me, and it is: MIL-STD-464, 18 March 1997, Superseding: MIL-STD-1818A (4 October 1993), MIL-E-6051D (7 September 1967), MIL-B-5087B (15 October 1964), MIL-STD-1385B (6 October 1986)

Please keep you information up to date and factual, so you do not get confused.
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Old 11-08-2015, 12:36 AM
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Read more carefully. I never said " nothing but".
I saiid if there is solid state components they will be fried.

Then go read the source I provided if you want info.
True you did not say "nothing but", but by your choice of words it was definitely implied, nothing but solid state electronics will be damaged. State what you intend to state clearly, or don't get huffy when your ambiguous wordings are misinterpreted.

BTW the only 188 series pulled in when a search was ran came back as: MIL-HDBK-188, 31 July 1985. The MIL-STD-188 Series, Volume III of a 3 Volume Selection Guide for Published Telecommunications Related Standards Specifications & Handbook.

I just do not believe that one will add much useful information to this discussion.
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Old 11-08-2015, 02:26 AM
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Mil handbook 188 series?

Please look back and see what was referenced, and I believe you will see it was MIL-STD-464. (There may have been an older or earlier series 188.)

I have the source referenced before me, and it is: MIL-STD-464, 18 March 1997, Superseding: MIL-STD-1818A (4 October 1993), MIL-E-6051D (7 September 1967), MIL-B-5087B (15 October 1964), MIL-STD-1385B (6 October 1986)

Please keep you information up to date and factual, so you do not get confused.
glad to see you have done some research. Have fun with you reading and let all know about Compton electrons.


https://www.wbdg.org/ccb/FEDMIL/std188_124b.pdf

188 is still most current but I probably should not have referenced that series as it is all comm gear related not trucks ...

Sorry that was where I. Was working emp Harding. Not trucks and cars just military AF satellite terminals. Sorry
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Old 11-08-2015, 02:40 AM
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True you did not say "nothing but", but by your choice of words it was definitely implied, nothing but solid state electronics will be damaged. State what you intend to state clearly, or don't get huffy when your ambiguous wordings are misinterpreted.
Quote:
...
MissouriFree said

. Any solid state electronics will be damaged.
Ambiguous wording ????
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Old 11-08-2015, 12:26 PM
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The Carrington Event 1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

The problem is that with an EMP, a great flow of ions passes thru the coils on the transformers, motors and starters, generating a huge electric current that fries the coils. Any chips would also be toast for the same reason. The Wiki article mentions that telegraph operators got shocks from their keys from that excessive current generated thru the coils by the storm.

Re: diesels vs gas engines: only the starter & alternator or generator on an old diesel would (could?) be destroyed. A diesel doesn't require spark to run, so you could push start it, if you could get it going fast enough. But even then, without functional electric pumps at the gas stations, refilling would be problematic.
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Old 11-08-2015, 01:20 PM
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The Carrington Event 1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

The problem is that with an EMP, a great flow of ions passes thru the coils on the transformers, motors and starters, generating a huge electric current that fries the coils. Any chips would also be toast for the same reason. The Wiki article mentions that telegraph operators got shocks from their keys from that excessive current generated thru the coils by the storm.

Re: diesels vs gas engines: only the starter & alternator or generator on an old diesel would (could?) be destroyed. A diesel doesn't require spark to run, so you could push start it, if you could get it going fast enough. But even then, without functional electric pumps at the gas stations, refilling would be problematic.

You right finding fuel of any kind would be tough but is reality the tanks at all filling stations are only a few feet slow ground and a hand
pump would work just fine - at least until the tank ran dry.
Fuel pumps on older vehicles ( ones that used generators were almost always nechainicsl with one electronics involved. They ran off the camshaft .Generators would be fine no solid state electronics of any kind involved. Starters should be ok also . . Hope you gave a manual transmission.
But because more and more car and components are being made with non metallic materials the effect won't be as bad as it once would have been.

In general there are a great many myths about emp dangers. solar storms which people like to read about --- but the trouble they then believe those storms cause effects only attributable to HEMP ( high altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse . )
Btw HEMP weapons would not cause bomb like destruction . For wider spread effect they are at very high altitudes.
To many myths to keep trying to dispels them . While I like wiki for many things this subject is a little beyond it and me . I only have limited knowledge because of my AF comm engineering background.. Here is a good paper on the subject if any want facts and not Internet forum myth. This thread or one similar comes up on the forum every so often ---- always with the same result,

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

And more detail from one of the manny excellent hyperlink in above reference


http://www.futurescience.com/emp/E1-E2-E3.html
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