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  #61  
Old 11-08-2015, 04:54 PM
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So, you are a Communications Engineer.

I have read all of the online articles by Jerry Emanuelson and those by Miles Stairs, End Times Report, EMP - Practical Protection & related articles at: http://endtimesreport.com/

Both of which are saved to my favorites. There are two or three other articles I have also read online, but I could not readily locate my notes from those articles.

I am in the process of reading the MIL-STD-464 article. I have covered roughly one quarter of it and it may be written in typical Electrical Engineers lingo, but it does not translate very readily into every day common language.
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  #62  
Old 11-08-2015, 05:04 PM
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Something I though about after posting the previous one......

MF, being an expert in the field, how do you rate the National Geographic DVD: Electronic Armageddon? If you have seen it, is if worth the purchase cost and time to view it, or is it pure hogwash, myth & fiction?
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  #63  
Old 11-08-2015, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjr View Post
So, you are a Communications Engineer.

I have read all of the online articles by Jerry Emanuelson and those by Miles Stairs, End Times Report, EMP - Practical Protection & related articles at: http://endtimesreport.com/

Both of which are saved to my favorites. There are two or three other articles I have also read online, but I could not readily locate my notes from those articles.

I am in the process of reading the MIL-STD-464 article. I have covered roughly one quarter of it and it may be written in typical Electrical Engineers lingo, but it does not translate very readily into every day common language.
I never said I was a communication engineer did I? Nice of you to think I am an expert ( which I not and said I had limited knowledge). You need to quit reading into other people's post. I said I was working in the AF comm area. So you know I am a structural PE. In the comm area we all had to take emp courses regardless of discipline prior to working facility hardening. Btw the what are your credential----Since you are so worried about me ?

Glad you have sammualson now. His credentials are pretty good.
Have no idea what " Miles Stairs" credentials are if he has any .
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 11-08-2015 at 08:09 PM.
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  #64  
Old 11-08-2015, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jjr View Post
Something I though about after posting the previous one......

MF, being an expert in the field, how do you rate the National Geographic DVD: Electronic Armageddon? If you have seen it, is if worth the purchase cost and time to view it, or is it pure hogwash, myth & fiction?
I didn't know about this show so I did a Google search - you can view in on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9z4EnE9baU
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  #65  
Old 11-09-2015, 06:03 PM
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Btw the what are your credential----Since you are so worried about me ?
If I were an Physicist or Electrical Engineer, I probably wouldn't be soliciting information. Would I? But since we are discussing something which a very limited number of people have ever had insight into, and that insight was more than 50 years in the past, and the technology has advanced tremendously in those intervening years, it is still pretty much theory as to what will truly happen. Educated guesses are much better than those from the kindergarten crowd.

You were the one providing answers. Therefore, it I were to even consider your answers, they had to come from someone having specialized scientific knowledge (like a Physicist, EE ) or having manufacturing and/or military experience at hardening equipment.

I do have a little science background, but it is 180 degrees south of Physics.

My background is mostly Biology, Microbiology & Chemistry. I taught high school General Science, Biology & Chemistry, then did research at LSU for about five & a half years, before I moved on to the Louisiana State Department of Health, from which I retired after approximately 34 years service. Probably about average for a country boy. I was considered an expert in my field of work and have testified in courts as such. Not something I ever enjoyed, but when subpoenaed, one does not say thanks, but no thanks. The courts take a very dim view of one not taking their invitations seriously.

Then to save everyone the trouble. We all know what a expert is, right?

1.) Someone more than 50 miles from home.
2.) An ex, is a has been, and a spurt is a drip of water put under pressure.

Please feel free to add to the list.
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  #66  
Old 11-09-2015, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by coaltrain View Post
I didn't know about this show so I did a Google search - you can view in on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9z4EnE9baU
Did You watch it?

If so, then what do you think of it coaltrain?
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  #67  
Old 11-09-2015, 09:34 PM
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No, generators would not be fine: they are coils of wire and the massive ion flux of an EMP thru them would generate such a large current the coils would melt. That's why the grid would go down: all those huge transformers at the relay stations are also coils of wire.

I have to wonder how large a man-made nuclear device would have to be to cause significant, widespread "EMP" damage? After all, those charges would diminish in effect by the inverse cube law as they spread from the site of detonation, and more than half would be directed up, the wrong direction. The charges from a solar event are several orders of magnitude larger, even after traveling 93Million miles to get here and not significantly diminishing as they pass thru our atmosphere.

It seems to me that if an enemy were about to use a nuclear device to upset us, they may as well just make it a "conventional " bomb and kill us all immediately rather than just knock out our grid and give us time to adapt and resist invasion.
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  #68  
Old 11-09-2015, 10:44 PM
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It seems to me that if an enemy were about to use a nuclear device to upset us, they may as well just make it a "conventional " bomb and kill us all immediately rather than just knock out our grid and give us time to adapt and resist invasion.
Create chaos & destroy communications, and hopefully some or all of the will to fight could be part, but the conventional weapon would destroy so much usable infrastructure that the EMP would leave in place and useable I believe would be the main reason. Plus they don't want to destroy their agents & sleeper cells already here.
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  #69  
Old 11-10-2015, 12:00 AM
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[QUOTE=doc;419770]No, generators would not be fine: they are coils of wire and the massive ion flux of an EMP thru them would generate such a large current the coils would melt. That's why the grid would go down: all those huge transformers at the relay stations are also coils of wire.

I have to wonder how large a man-made nuclear device would have to be to cause significant, widespread "EMP" damage? After all, those charges would diminish in effect by the inverse cube law as they spread from the site of detonation, and more than half would be directed up, the wrong direction. The charges from a solar event are several orders of magnitude larger, even after traveling 93Million miles to get here and not significantly diminishing as they pass thru our atmosphere. [QUOTE]

Starter armature's also have a lot of copper windings in them to, doc. So I am not thoroughly convinced they might not suffer damage also.

Naturally the payload, has a bearing, but for any given payload damage & severity increases with the height attained into the atmosphere/stratosphere before detonation occurs seems to be the general conscious of the debaters.

Everyone always points to the mid-US, where a detonation like over Kansas or Nebraska would do the greatest harm. Naturally an enemy would like to cripple 100% of the nation should such a device be deployed I am sure, but if they were not entirely sure that was possible unless of course they could simultaneously detonate two or more EMP's, I would think the Northeast & Great Lakes area would be the greatest potential target, because of the Nations central government and greatest concentrations of population being located there. Probably the greatest concentrations of people really dependent upon others for the most part for all necessities in life, except for possibly the Pacific coast. The plans states, Mountainous states and South with smaller concentrations of populations would provide the attackers with less bang for their buck, if a choice had to be made. But terrorist do not always think rationally nor logically, but go for the greatest shock effect! Which may one day backfire on them.

At one point in time, I thought there was a possibility of hardening the electrical system of a few things like trucks & tractors, but I am beginning to have severe reservations about that really being a feasible undertaking at the individual level.

Trying to separate what little facts there are from opinion, hype, fantasy, fiction, you name it (and it seems to be there) is a major undertaking. Then throw in all the variables and the possibilities are almost endless.

It's beginning to look like purchasing a remuda of equine will be the safest investment for positive transportation. And there may be more truth than jest in that statement!

Last edited by Jjr; 11-10-2015 at 12:02 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #70  
Old 11-10-2015, 10:37 AM
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Did You watch it?

If so, then what do you think of it coaltrain?
No - I haven't yet. Didn't know this existed until you posted about it.

I hate watching videos on my computer so I am going to see if I can pull it up on my TV through my Roku unit on youtube - waiting for a cold/rainy day.
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  #71  
Old 11-10-2015, 11:42 AM
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Specically designed nuclear EMP weapons are not the most powerfull from a convention destruction point of view.
Source :: see previously posted myths link bySamuelson .

Also please note in same source comment about myth of inverse cube theory .
-------

Concerning vehicle here is a good report.

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html
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  #72  
Old 11-11-2015, 07:54 AM
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That reference made no mention of the inverse cube law. It does state that it takes about 12,000 V/m to cause damage to a car, and that the biggest nuclear weapon test (1962) produced 50,000V/m. By the inverse cube law, that electromagnetic field would be diminished to 5V/m at a point just 100m away from the detonation. [Even if we only use the inverse square law, the field is 5V/m at a mere one kilometer distance.]

Jjr: re: infrastructure damage etc-- the EMP attack would still render infrastructure radioactive and unusable for decades, and I'm not sure they really care about saving their sleeper cell mates. Again, why bother starting a nuclear war only to vex us and not kill us outright?

A couple points about use of nuclear devices: our country is 3000 mi across and the effect of a huge 100MT bomb only abut 100 miles. The most amazing thing (to me) about the bombs used on Japan in WWII is that if you weren't vaporized or visibly burned by the initial blast, then your risk of eventually developing leukemia was markedly increased, but risk of other cancers not effected very much at all (and almost no passage of genetically linked risks to future generations), ie- little damage to DNA, which is much more sensitive to radiation than copper coils, at even relatively close location to the blast.

My conclusion: an EMP caused by a man made device would appear to be localized and more hype than real, while a natural EMP event from the Sun is real and would be wide spread but very rare.
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  #73  
Old 11-11-2015, 09:20 AM
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One last time and then I will leave you to you beliefs. The most disruptive emp attack on America would be a HEMP ( HIGH Altittude nuclear emp) season . It would be very high ( 20-30 kilometers - i.e. Space) and very disruptive from an electronic perspective but do no physical damage on the surface. It would not have to be very big at all.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfa...5.html#nfaq5.5

Please read the above for facts
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Last edited by MissouriFree; 11-11-2015 at 09:46 AM.
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  #74  
Old 11-11-2015, 03:31 PM
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Quote from that site:
High altitude explosions produce EMPs that are dramatically more destructive. About 3x10^-5 of the bomb's total energy goes into EMP in this case, 10^11 joules for a 1 Mt bomb. EMP is formed in high altitude explosions when the downwardly directed gamma rays encounter denser layers of air below. A pancake shaped ionization region is formed below the bomb. The zone can extend all the way to the horizon, to 2500 km for an explosion at an altitude of 500 km. The ionization zone is up to 80 km thick at the center. The Earth's magnetic field causes the electrons in this layer to spiral as they travel, creating a powerful downward directed electromagnetic pulse lasting a few microseconds. A strong vertical electrical field (20-50 KV/m) is also generated between the Earth's surface and the ionized layer, this field lasts for several minutes until the electrons are recaptured by the air. Although the peak EMP field strengths from high altitude bursts are only 1-10% as intense as the peak ground burst fields, they are nearly constant over the entire Earth's surface under the ionized region.


For perspective, the space station orbits between 330 & 410 km up.

I re-iterate: the decision to use a nuclear device will have grave, extended consequences and repercussions, and those consequences must be taken into consideration by anyone contemplating that use. The EMP effects are not at all certain, as that article states, so the use of a device for this purpose may incur the wrath and retaliation from the intended victim without actually imposing much damage on them. I'd say that's a pretty lousy risk/reward scenario. Better just to blow 'em all up if you're gunna risk nuclear retaliation.

Another point from the article: while the electromagnetic field generated by a nuclear device may be very strong, it is very short (10 nano-seconds- as opposed to a solar event, lasting hours to days) That may ruin printed chips & memory cards, but may not generate enough heat for long enough in an armature to fry it, hence the doubt about damage to old vehicles or grid transformers.
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  #75  
Old 11-11-2015, 03:33 PM
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Have you way. !!!!!
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  #76  
Old 11-12-2015, 09:56 PM
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No - I haven't yet. Didn't know this existed until you posted about it.
I didn't find any great secrets revealed, but it was thought provocative and did bring a few interesting topics to the table I thought.

The USAF EMP hardened planes shown and discussed was very interesting, but that was only a short segment of the entire video.

Anyone interested in this subject would probably enjoy watching the video, and it is not 100% about man made EMP matters, but does discuss solar storms, their past damage & potential future damage to a minor degree.

If your can fine it, give it a view.
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  #77  
Old 11-13-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jjr View Post
I didn't find any great secrets revealed, but it was thought provocative and did bring a few interesting topics to the table I thought.

The USAF EMP hardened planes shown and discussed was very interesting, but that was only a short segment of the entire video.

Anyone interested in this subject would probably enjoy watching the video, and it is not 100% about man made EMP matters, but does discuss solar storms, their past damage & potential future damage to a minor degree.

If your can fine it, give it a view.
I watched myself last night. I found it interesting as they talked about the science behind how an EMP effects our electronics. Also found it interesting about the hardened military communications plane - they said there is always one up in the air at all times.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Kachad View Post
Don't have a faraday cage protection setup, but sure wish I had a couple of extra CPU's for the Jeep.

Work with the faraday cage effect all the time - with electrostatic coatings. Should have a room setup, but don't.
Buy them and wrap them up in Alum tape then keep them in your non-electronic gun safe. Wrap the container completely around all three axis.
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  #79  
Old 11-26-2015, 01:56 PM
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Many things can be used as a Faraday cage. A galvanized trash can, an old military ammo can they come in various sizes. Just line the container with a non conductive material like cardboard and then seal. The ammo can usually are sealed without any needed additional protection. The trashcan may need the metal foil tape around the lid of the can.
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  #80  
Old 11-26-2015, 09:23 PM
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As long as my guns would still work after such an event(and AFAIK guns wouldn't be affected by an EMP), that's all I care about.

I still have a couple old bicycles in the basement, so if I needed to get around that bad, they're better than nothing.
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