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Water Drinking water, wells, ponds, saving, purifying, etc.

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  #1  
Old 01-22-2016, 10:54 PM
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Default Flint MI. Water Problem...

OK.. There has been a lot of headlines in my local news about the lead in Flint Michigan water... Even a headline about Hillary having something to say about it, if only to get extra camera time.. I don't know what was said..

Little things that have been said are they switched sources for water to a river that was at best questionable quality ??? And I have to presume regardless of source the treatment process hasn't been what it should be..

What was this ??? Done to save costs ?? A monumental oops... ??

Facts, details, thoughts ??
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:50 AM
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It very sad what's going on there. Lead posioning is irreversible.
I think the switched to get thier water from Flint entirely to save money.
- decision was made at state level not city level.
- Flint river water is clean.
- the lead is coming from the pipes the water flows thru not the river
- it could have been avoided with correct water treatment but wasn't. No one owning up to why.
- only fix now. Is replacement of pipe or at least Insitu lining
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:57 AM
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OK.. There has been a lot of headlines in my local news about the lead in Flint Michigan water... Even a headline about Hillary having something to say about it, if only to get extra camera time.. I don't know what was said..

Little things that have been said are they switched sources for water to a river that was at best questionable quality ??? And I have to presume regardless of source the treatment process hasn't been what it should be..

What was this ??? Done to save costs ?? A monumental oops... ??

Facts, details, thoughts ??
As I understand it, Flint had been buying its water from Detroit, but the governor of Michigan arranged aomehow to switch to river water as a cheaper alternative to save the city of Flint significant cash. It turned into a giant fiasco.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:01 AM
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a) Water supply is usually a local issue. Please document that it was the governor who was involved with the plan to switch from expensive Detroit water to the cheaper local river source. The EPA regional chief resigned because she knew a problem existed for over a year and didn't step in. There's plenty of blame to go around.

b) More importantly, can anyone document that any actual damage has been done, or will be done? Remember that most of us have Pb dental fillings in our heads right now. While lead ingestion is cumulative, it takes very high levels of exposure to cause problems in adults. Developing kids can be injured at lower exposure levels, but we don't know the level of exposure involved in this case. Standards are set way below actual danger levels.

In this question, I always like to point out that after Pb was removed from gasoline & paint 40 yrs ago, there is now generally almost no environmental exposure to lead from man-made sources anymore, but IQ scores haven't changed at all. The whole lead exposure thing is a non-problem invented for political exploitation.

BTW- Hil-LIAR-y commented so she could claim the delay in correcting the problem was race related. They're gunna vote for her anyways, so why comment? It just confirms the opinion of the rest of us about her.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:45 AM
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Just wondering. Isn't the cities run by progressives, and what would the governor have to do with local water divisions

Just like the RAP, contaminating that river, the government gets to say OOPS.

If this had been s corporation the government media and the sheep would have been all over it. Maybe it's time to privatise the water system. But watch out for fascism.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc View Post
a) Water supply is usually a local issue. Please document that it was the governor who was involved with the plan to switch from expensive Detroit water to the cheaper local river source. The EPA regional chief resigned because she knew a problem existed for over a year and didn't step in. There's plenty of blame to go around.

b) More importantly, can anyone document that any actual damage has been done, or will be done? Remember that most of us have Pb dental fillings in our heads right now. While lead ingestion is cumulative, it takes very high levels of exposure to cause problems in adults. Developing kids can be injured at lower exposure levels, but we don't know the level of exposure involved in this case. Standards are set way below actual danger levels.

In this question, I always like to point out that after Pb was removed from gasoline & paint 40 yrs ago, there is now generally almost no environmental exposure to lead from man-made sources anymore, but IQ scores haven't changed at all. The whole lead exposure thing
is a non-problem invented for political exploitation.

BTW- Hil-LIAR-y commented so she could claim the delay in correcting the problem was race related. They're gunna vote for her anyways, so why comment? It just confirms the opinion of the rest of us about her.
The report that I heard was that there wasn't a large amount of money to be saved but some. And that the previous source of water was Lake Huron (maybe through Detroit, I don't know).

I haven't heard all the details but I figure a major part of the governor's problem is that there is a (R) behind his name.
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Old 01-23-2016, 02:58 PM
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The problem isn't the source of the water.

It was how it was treated

Detroit added a chemical which coated the inside of the pipes to prevent lead leaching into the water from the old plumbing, and Flint did not.

Once that coating wore off, the lead levels increased.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:58 PM
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OK.... It seems a lot of "things" came together to create this perfect storm of a situation..

I suppose a change in the chemical make up of the water coming into a system CAN make a difference in the deterioration rate of a pipe coating.. Make up of the water absorbing lead faster than water of another make up or source.. Again, perfect storm details..

It is hard to believe an EPA official letting the ball drop for an extended period of time.. They are usually so very quick, loud, and persistent over so many things.. Many times things so much more minor than something like this.. I find it hard to believe there aren't details about that will come to light eventually and land hard on one or a group of people...

Hillary... I have not read/heard any of her comments about this.. Just know she for one has commented... Wouldn't shock me (surprise maybe) that she or any one would massage words to take advantage of a situation like this.. Deliberate acts like that are disgusting at the least...

Like said.. I'm sure there are ways to repair/maintain the water system to a safe, usable state.. Repairs and maintenance that should have been done all along and not done in a routine or timely manor.. Another part of the perfect storm to get to this conclusion..

I do hope they can get it fixed.. In a timely manor and at a reasonable cost for what is needed..

It is certain those who knowingly didn't do what was necessary when necessary SHOULD suffer consequences.. It will be disgusting to have to put up with a bunch of chest pounding, finger pointing, and other useless blat blat from any one or group trying to take advantage of the issue..

My 2 cents..
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:09 PM
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Lead water pipes are common thru out the whole country. If the PH of the water isn't adjusted it will leach the lead from the pipes.

Not sure why the proper chemicals were not added to the water.

I heard that Michigan is one of several stated that have laws shielding the govt from FOIA laws . Wonder if we will ever get the whole story.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:06 PM
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Flint built its first water treatment plant (now defunct) in 1917. The city built a second plant in 1952.[4]

In 1962, Flint had plans to build a pipeline from Lake Huron to Flint, but a real estate profiteering scandal caused the city commission to abandon the pipeline project in 1964 and instead buy water from the City of Detroit.[5]

In 1967, the city stopped treating its own water when a pipeline from Detroit was completed.[4][6]

At the time of Flint's population peak and economic height (when the city was the center of the automobile industry), Flint's plants pumped 100 million gallons (380,000 m3) of water per day. With the decline of the city's industry and a significant drop in the city's population (from almost 200,000 in 1960 to about 99,000 today), Flint pumped less water. By October 2014, when the Flint plant ended operations, it pumped just 16 million gallons (61,000 m3) daily.[4]

In March 2013, the Flint city council voted to switch their water supply from the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) to the new $233 million Lake Huron-sourced Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA).[7] The switch was approved by the Flint emergency manager.[8] DWSD strongly opposed Flint being allowed to join KWA and released a document accusing Flint of starting a 'water war' and asked the state to block Flint's participation in KWA.[9] Between 2011 and 2015, Flint was in receivership, with city finances controlled by a series of four emergency managers appointed by Governor Snyder.[10]

State Treasurer Andy Dillon approved Flint joining KWA but gave DWSD the opportunity to make a final offer to convince Flint to stay on Detroit water.[11] Flint declined the final DWSD offer. Immediately after Flint declined the offer, DWSD gave Flint notice that their long-standing water agreement would terminate in twelve months.[12] This meant that Flint's water agreement with Detroit would end in April 2014 but construction of KWA was not expected to be completed until the end of 2016. Therefore, in April 2014 (when the water agreement terminated), Flint switched their water supply from DWSD to Flint's backup supply, the Flint River. The Flint river was expected to supply potable water until KWA construction was completed in 2016. Given that DWSD strongly opposed Flint joining KWA and that Flint provided 6% ($22 million) of DWSD revenue, it is not clear why DWSD terminated the agreement in 2013 as they could have received revenue for at least two additional years and they did not have a buyer waiting to take over the Flint water.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:08 PM
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So if I read the above correctly the City is Detroit is to blame for cutting them off before the pipeline was finished. So it
sounds like Detroit did not care about poor black people.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:25 PM
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It would have still worked out if the flint river water was properly treated. I had heard but can not ( everyone istaying pretty mum now)verify that it was dollars that drove the switch and that means state appointed manager. Did the deed.

ADDED:
Was just watching CSPAN and learned a bit more. Seems that Detroit ( which is broke Also) has to pump the water up hill to Flint and the reason that flint elected not to do that was that the price was increased by $1m a month. Flint count not afford it and Detroit could not either .

Re EPA . Yes they dropped the ball by doing something when they knew about the lead problem. Didn't cause it but did nothing to raise the issue or correct. Guess they getting gun shy- with all the flak they take lately.so they dropped the ball .
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Old 01-24-2016, 02:43 PM
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I just read an article where Matt Damon was demanding the governer resign. I wonder if he demanded the president resign for the EPA debacle.

I guess the media won't tell us. Or could it be he want one party system
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:39 AM
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Water source was changed from Source A to Source B.

Source B water required additional treatment, the combination caused the biofilm in the pipes to be stripped.

Water was then switched back to Source A, but without the biofilm present, the pipes\fittings\valves\joint compounds are still exposed, and lead is still a problem.

The water engineers at the working level must have reported this to the "higher ups". Then, it was taken out of their hands.

This last statement is an assumption, but I work with these engineers every day. So, I'm pretty sure it's correct.

I'm a member of the AWWA (American Water Works Association), and serve on several tech boards that support this infrastructure.

Our infrastructure for water is horribly outdated. I've done several studies in St. Paul where we cut sections of pipes and analyze them. We are far overdue for updating them across the US.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:11 AM
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HPlease explain " biofilm".
It was my understanding that lead leaching was caused by acidic nature of flint river water due to high chlorine content.

This just my suspicion and nothing else but Soon after switchover there was a boil water order due to high TTHM ( trihalomethane) this is organic growth typical of water from rivers. We had it at a base I worked at in illinois that used river water. The most common cause is treating water with Chlorine. I suspect the plant operators did just that but failed to control ph and the resultant high PH caused the leaching of lead. That kinda dovetails with your comment on the operators.

One of the temp fixes is to add a treatment that promotes a film over the lead . Is that the biofilm you speak off ? Isn't that a fix and not something that was previously done and stopped?

Please explain ,

Thanks

Mo
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:17 AM
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HPlease explain " biofilm".
It was my understanding that lead leaching was caused by acidic nature of flint river water due to high chlorine content.

This just my suspicion and nothing else but Soon after switchover there was a boil water order due to high TTHM ( trihalomethane) this is organic growth typical of water from rivers. We had it at a base I worked at in illinois that used river water. The most common cause is treating water with Chlorine. I suspect the plant operators did just that but failed to control ph and the resultant high PH caused the leaching of lead. That kinda dovetails with your comment on the operators.

One of the temp fixes is to add a treatment that promotes a film over the lead . Is that the biofilm you speak off ? Isn't that a fix and not something that was previously done and stopped?

Please explain ,

Thanks

Mo
Old Pipes are cast iron, or if lucky, ductile iron.

Corrosion starts in these pipes, based on a variety of reasons.

"Carbuncles" start to form, which basically can be described as corrosion cells, that form along the pipe.

These carbuncles are formed, in part to a bio-film that develops in the pipes.

The carbuncles, over time, will grow and reduce the diameter of the pipes, reducing flow.

Carbuncles are a good and a bad thing. They help reduce corrosion with the core pipe, so that's a good thing. The bad thing is that they reduce flow capacity of the pipe, by reducing the inner diameter of the flow area in the pipe.

If water conditions change, and wipe out the bio-film, then the corrosion will proceed and the pipe will be exposed.

Old cast pipe has higher levels of lead, so it will start leaching into the system. A lot of lead is from pipe-joint compounds, think of it as a type of solder.

So once the pipe and compounds are exposed, Pb will be leached.

Water conditions (and treatment chemicals) will have to be changed, in order to let the biofilm redevelop.

Once the biofilm is healthy again, the carbuncles will form, protecting the pipe.

Our pipe infrastructure, throughout the US is horribly out of date. It needs to be worked on, otherwise we will see this happen across multiple Cities.

Chlorine is needed for water purification, but if high levels are used, it will remove the bio film. This removal will start the process, as seen in flint.

I don't think chlorine was the problem in Flint, but they had to change the water treatment chemical mix to adjust for the difference in water.

Most likely, the new treatments accelerated the destruction of the biofilm, and accelerated the removal of carbuncles. Thus, leading to getting to old cast materials, which have a higher Pb amount than current pipe tech.

Replacing old cast pipe is done utilizing steel pipe, with an internal coating. That coating is often fusion bonded epoxy coatings, which increase life service, but can also leach Bis-A.

I work with the coatings that are used on steel pipe, and although the Bis-A levels are typically below municipal standards, it is a possibility that these compounds may still be leached into water. Levels are typically still low - worst case scenario.

Does this kind of answer your question?
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:32 AM
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This just my suspicion and nothing else but Soon after switchover there was a boil water order due to high TTHM ( trihalomethane) this is organic growth typical of water from rivers. We had it at a base I worked at in illinois that used river water. The most common cause is treating water with Chlorine. I suspect the plant operators did just that but failed to control ph and the resultant high PH caused the leaching of lead. That kinda dovetails with your comment on the operators.

One of the temp fixes is to add a treatment that promotes a film over the lead . Is that the biofilm you speak off ? Isn't that a fix and not something that was previously done and stopped?

Please explain ,

Thanks

Mo
Re-read your post, and mine. I think I touched on the general idea, but didn't address the generation of TTHM.

I probably focused on what I know, versus the TTHM aspect and how to treat that.

I am speculating a bit now, because it the ? starts to get beyond my knowledge, and have no researched the chemistry behind it.

Speculation - If the water Engineers started treating for the TTHM variable, due to the change in the water source to the River, it's logical that this same treatment killed of the intact biofilm in the pipes.

Which brings us back to the idea that once that biofilm is gone, corrosion may start with those carbuncles, and get down to the pipe.

Again - this is speculation, but follows a logical root cause path.

Cheers
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:27 AM
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Some arithmetic to keep things in perspective:

-Feds allow up to 15 ppm Pb in drinking water
-kids' lead levels can " safely" be up to 5ugm/dL (although studies show kids with toxicity have levels >30ugm/dL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Water

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/wat...oval-water.htm

-considering Pb in the body distributes evenly over water volume, a 50 lb kid with the max allowable level would have ~ 700ugm in him

-assuming all lead ingested is retained (although it's not), a kid would have to drink ~ 2,000,000 gal of water (as only source of Pb) at the max allowable Pb level to achieve that body level. ...Drinking 5 gal/d of water with 10x the max standard, it would take him 109 yrs to take in that much lead.

The Greatest Generation, who saved the world by winning WWII, then gave mankind its greatest growth in standard of living and of scientific achievement ever, had no particular protection from lead in its water supply- provided in "sub-standard", often lead pipes- didn't seem to be hampered by the lack of governmental standards and interventions....I'm thinking this whole Flint MI "problem" is just another pseudo- crisis manufactured for someone's political exploitation.

BTW- as the Wiki ref says, no actual minimum or max for lead exposure is actually known via the data, so the standard set is just another example of the EPA pulling a number out of its a...er... thin air... to enslave us with.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by doc View Post
Some arithmetic to keep things in perspective:

-Feds allow up to 15 ppm Pb in drinking water
-kids' lead levels can " safely" be up to 5ugm/dL (although studies show kids with toxicity have levels >30ugm/dL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Water

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/wat...oval-water.htm

-considering Pb in the body distributes evenly over water volume, a 50 lb kid with the max allowable level would have ~ 700ugm in him

-assuming all lead ingested is retained (although it's not), a kid would have to drink ~ 2,000,000 gal of water (as only source of Pb) at the max allowable Pb level to achieve that body level. ...Drinking 5 gal/d of water with 10x the max standard, it would take him 109 yrs to take in that much lead.

The Greatest Generation, who saved the world by winning WWII, then gave mankind its greatest growth in standard of living and of scientific achievement ever, had no particular protection from lead in its water supply- provided in "sub-standard", often lead pipes- didn't seem to be hampered by the lack of governmental standards and interventions....I'm thinking this whole Flint MI "problem" is just another pseudo- crisis manufactured for someone's political exploitation.

BTW- as the Wiki ref says, no actual minimum or max for lead exposure is actually known via the data, so the standard set is just another example of the EPA pulling a number out of its a...er... thin air... to enslave us with.
Excellent observations regarding the lead side of things.

Adding two links, thought it might be interesting for people to read.

Clear Explanation of the mechanism behind the differences in the water, and effect on the pipes.

http://flintwaterstudy.org/tag/drinking-water/

I keep on thinking that the term lead pipes is the media etc, is way overused. All the pipe water supply projects that I have ever worked on were always focused on replacing cast iron or ductile iron. All the carbuncle and biofilm giggle gaggle that I was droning on about is from those types of substrates.

The link below does reference true lead pipes, and further mechanism on how a mineral coating forms - versus failure mechanisms for other forms of pipe.

https://www.safeplumbing.org/health-...ad-in-plumbing

I won't argue your numbers and conclusion above, Doc. The logic makes sense.

In general - our water infrastructure needs a serious facelift. Suburbs and Rural areas are of course in good shape, as they typically are newer. But older areas are pretty bad.

There would be long term savings as well -

Reduced water loss, and processing savings from that.

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/29/359875...-of-water-lost

Reduced energy costs of pushing water, through head loss.

http://www.hydromatic.com/Residentia..._headloss.aspx

Just tossing up all the links for anyone interested - interesting for some and good bed time reading for others (including myself at times )
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:02 PM
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Video of lining lead pipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PQi5q8GvwI

PDF of another process, more along the lines of what I've experienced

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1...ue%20June%2020
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