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Old 01-26-2016, 12:37 AM
sethwyo sethwyo is offline
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Default M14/m1a

WOW !!! im sure glad i didnt buy an m1a.

looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:52 AM
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Your link isn't a link

http://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/th...he-m14-legend/
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:01 PM
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rice paddy daddy Male rice paddy daddy is offline
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My US Army Basic Training rifle was an M14. I qualified Expert.
My stateside issue rifle in a Field Artillery unit was an M14. I re-qualified Expert.
My issue weapon for my Vietnam sojourn was an M16A1. I missed Expert by a few points and was awarded the Sharpshooter badge.

Today, I have many rifles. Military surplus and civilian. Among those is a 1994 Springfield Armory M1A Standard Model, with the majority of the parts being USGI. I do not own, nor have the desire to own, an AR.

Qualifying with the M14 was done on targets ranging from 25 meters to 500 meters.
Qualifying with the M16 the distance was limited to 300 meters. There was a reason for that.

I am happy with my M1A, and that is really what matters to me.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:24 PM
jvcstone jvcstone is offline
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ditto with my socom-16 The entire post is a duplicamte of my experience in the army--did'nt miss a target with the M-14--including multiple pop-ups at various distances. Missed a few with the M-16 once in Nam--nowhere near as good a weapon (and still not IMO)

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Old 01-26-2016, 11:54 PM
sethwyo sethwyo is offline
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Default I dont want no teenage queen

Hy rice paddy daddy , jvcstone, i was hoping you would drop by


i could not figure this story out, about the m14 being a weak faulty rifle.

¨grab it by the top hand guard and watch the fellow go from deathly white to red with rage and horror of what you just did. It needs to be carefully babied. ¨

? ? ? ?

can you imagine your drill instructor , when you wore given your m14, ¨ this is your baby, so treat it like a baby ¨
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:49 PM
Mad_Professor Mad_Professor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethwyo View Post
WOW !!! im sure glad i didnt buy an m1a.

looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/
I'll agree with this from the link:

"Furthermore, the available cost data indicate that is (M16) also a cheaper weapon. "

Guess you have not shot rifles much. Got tens of thousands of rounds through many calibers and platforms. I have great respect for the M14/Garand
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:53 PM
Doninalaska Doninalaska is online now
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I remember reading (during the initial phases of the Iraq invasion) that many of the troops were requesting M14s in lieu of the M16. The complaint was that the M16 rounds would pass right through a charging Jihadist without knocking him down, whereas the M14 would stop him in his tracks. That was in the close quarters, house-to-house stuff. No personal experience with either weapon.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doninalaska View Post
I remember reading (during the initial phases of the Iraq invasion) that many of the troops were requesting M14s in lieu of the M16. The complaint was that the M16 rounds would pass right through a charging Jihadist without knocking him down, whereas the M14 would stop him in his tracks. That was in the close quarters, house-to-house stuff. No personal experience with either weapon.
I missed this one apparently, but it reminds me of the inadequacy of the Army's .38 Special at stopping the charging Moro warriors in the Philippines.

A number of years after the Vietnam War, I was going through a stash of a friends dads old magazines from the late 50's through the mid 70's. Some were subscription, some were purchased off the news stand, but there were literally hundreds of magazines. I was allowed to check out magazines and read them, but he wanted them back, and I returned what I borrowed, but there were two articles I will never forget.

One concerned comparisons between the M-14 and the M-16, in the jungle situation of Vietnam. In effort to compare the power and reach of the two weapon systems, two boxes were set up with identical sets of staggered small diameter dowel rods, 3/8 inch rods IIRC, to simulate the bamboo so prevalent in the jungle terrain of Vietnam. Then ten rounds from each the M-14 & M-16 were fired at a target beyond each respective box. According to the author the M-14 never had a single failure to make it through the box and hit the target beyond, yet the M-16 never had a single round make it through the box. His conclusion was a rifle round that can not reach the enemy can do no good at stopping the enemy.

The other article was about unconventional sniping systems in use in Vietnam, but that is a story for another day as the saying goes.
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:00 AM
sethwyo sethwyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Professor View Post
I'll agree with this from the link:

"Furthermore, the available cost data indicate that is (M16) also a cheaper weapon. "

Guess you have not shot rifles much. Got tens of thousands of rounds through many calibers and platforms. I have great respect for the M14/Garand
any respect for the many things claimed against / about the m14/m1a ?

in the article there are constant references to adjusting the rifles parts to keep it tuned, any idea what he's talking about ?
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:13 PM
essayons4791 essayons4791 is offline
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The guys I knew overseas who used the M-14 liked them just fine (OIF/OEF) and the ballistic difference between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO round are obvious. Both rounds are killers, however. But they are examples of two differing philosophies of combat ammunition. The 7.62 was explicitly developed to be an instant killer/incapacitator- the 7.62 is equivalent to the old M1 Ball of WW1 and 2 fame. The 5.56 was developed to be an effective incapacitator- the thought being that with 5.56 a soldier could carry more ammunition and be able to wound the enemy, which takes more soldiers out of the fight. How? A dead enemy removes one soldier from the fight. A wounded soldier removes two or three enemy because it's damn hard to ignore a screaming comrade, and while the bad guys are taking care of a wounded comrade they are not shooting at YOU. Anyway, enough about the two different rounds- and BTW, I'm not saying I agree with the logic behind the development of the 5.56, just restating what I was always trained to regurgitate.

I never have carried or used the M-14. However, I am very familiar with its older brother the M-1 and if the two are anything alike then the M-14 must be a pretty good weapon.

According to what I've heard and read the military converted to the M-16 in Vietnam at the prodding of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. In some circles it was perceived that a soldier equipped with an M-14 was outgunned by his communist equivalent carrying the AK-47. As the Air Force had already acquired the Armalite AR-15, Secretary McNamara thought the AR-15 would make a dandy ready-made solution to the perceived firepower shortfall among soldiers in Vietnam. So... the AR-15 was given to Army Ordnance and after a few changes it was dubbed the M-16 and issued to units in Vietnam.

According to my uncle (18th EN BDE, A Shau valley) his M-16 was issued without a cleaning kit and he was told the rifles were "self cleaning". You can imagine the result. From other Vietnam veterans I have known (11th ACR, 173rd ABN, 27th FA RGT), I have also heard some pretty hair-raising tales in regard to the introduction of the weapon and some of the issues soldiers encountered. None of these soldiers mentioned a single problem with the "old" M-14.

Rice Paddy Daddy, etc., please chime in!

I soldiered twenty years with the M-16 family and thought it was OK. I used it with success in combat. But by the time I was handed one it's teething issues were far behind it, and all the old NCO's knew every quirk it had- so I never experienced the weapon the way the Vietnam veterans did.

I cannot recall any old soldier who had bad things to say about the M-14, except for the fact it was heavy.

Last edited by essayons4791; 01-31-2016 at 10:38 PM.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2016, 11:08 PM
Doninalaska Doninalaska is online now
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Again, everything I know is second-hand, but a couple other things I heard were: 1) the M-16 was adopted in order to make women in combat more feasible, and 2) I understood from some Vietnam vets that some of the guys did something to the muzzle to make the rounds "tumble" after leaving the muzzle. The idea being that instead of going through the opponent, it would blow a big hole. It made it a more formidable weapon in close quarters--of course it threw the long-range accuracy out the window. I don't know if either of the stories are true.
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2016, 12:59 AM
sethwyo sethwyo is offline
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Default true story

I have not fired as many rounds as some people have fired, but I have carried my m1a rifle many hundreds of miles, the bolt gets greased, I check the bore to make sure there's nothing in there, I carry it on my back and in my hand for 10 miles across country, over a mountain range 7000 + feet high and then back down again, across some small rivers, valleys, hills and canyons, to a very private shooting range.

before I shoot I check the bore, there really is not much else to check. other than the rear sights, I never have had to adjust anything. In some areas I do off hand shooting at rocks, some 200 yards, some 600 yards, and everywhere in between.

sometimes it gets dropped, sometimes I fall and it gets knocked a bit. not often.
Check the bore before I shoot, Take the magazine out, lock the bolt open. Clean the bore if it needs it, 3 piece brass rod set, Backup string cleaning kit.
2 inch groups at 200 yards.

Always check the bore to make sure there is no debris in the chamber or in the bore. Keep the bolt greased. Examined the gas port 2 times over the years, it has never needed to be cleaned.
Not much maintenance required.

Come back home a couple days later, turn on the good ol internet, and read this very strange article this person has written about the m1a m14 rifle
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  #13  
Old 02-02-2016, 12:31 AM
Nickathome Nickathome is offline
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I've never been in the military, however I own several AR's, and have fired several M1a's belonging to friends. As was mentioned, they are different weapons designed for different missions. Comparing the two is not fair to either, as each has their strong points and each its weak spot. Having said that, if I required a weapon for distances under 300 meters, I'd definitely pick an AR with its lighter weight, larger ammunition capacity, and lighter recoil. IMO anything that steps inside that magical 300 meters is dead using an AR.......Out past 300 meters and my opinion changes as I'd then prefer the M1a with its larger caliber and harder hitting round. In the latter case where farther distances equals not as much chance the bad guy is going to be upon you quickly, the lesser carrying capacity of the M1a is not much of a hindrance. And to the former if the bad guy is out a ways and you need to reach out and touch him, then I'd not want to be holding the plastic gun. But as always there is the mission that you need to eval, and pick the tool that will best do the job. Just as you're not likely to grab a pitch fork to lay in a fence, and conversely, you're not going to grab the post hole digger to bail hay!
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Old 02-02-2016, 07:58 PM
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Jeeez!~ where to start? First off the web page "LooseRounds.com" is actually the blog page for the author, the link he provided takes you to a "this page does not exist" message. So go figure. In boot camp at MCRD San Diego we were issued old worn M1 Grands and taught how to clean and maintain them. I managed to qualify as Sharpshooter with a score of 219 one point short of expert. Upon graduation and assignment to Camp Pendleton I was issued an old worn BAR, that's Browning Automatic Rifle for you youngsters. Same caliber as the M1, 30-06. I humped that heavy sucker for about a year and half and managed to qualify Sharpshooter again with it. For those that don't know it's a full automatic magazine fed assault rifle/light machine gun. Heck of a weapon but heavy, about 20 lbs or so. Anyway, they finally got around to replacing the M1s and BARs with the M14. Since I was the automatic rifleman mine had a selector switch on it. Every subsequent qualification I made Expert and the last time high expert. Never had any problems of any kind. Fast forward a couple of decades and I purchased a Springfield Armory M1A. I got the "loaded version". That means that it had a match barrel, match sights and had been "glass bedded". Lived in the city so not a lot of chances to shoot much but still no problems, really liked the rifle. Fast forward another decade or so and we moved to the boondocks where we have our own range out to 750 yards. Started experimenting with different ammo just to see how good it would really shoot. Long story short, it likes standard old Lake City Nato rounds 149 grain ball shoots into 11/16ths of an inch yes less than 3/4" at 100 yards. My pet 308 load of 42.5 grains of IMR 4064 shoots into 3/4" also. So as far as I'm concerned all of that bad mouthing is so much bs. I have several buddies that have M1As also and they are all content too.
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:32 PM
sethwyo sethwyo is offline
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42 and a half grains of 4064 is my favorite also. Or rather it seems to be the favorite of the m1a,

`loose rounds` is an appropriate term for that websites author.

Remind me of the self-proclaimed mechanics who tell bs stories about boring and stroking engines, who have `loose screws`


seriously, I read that article 20 times trying to make heads or tails of it, I decided it must have been a joke. But never found the punchline.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:55 AM
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IMR 4064 is a great powder, has served me very well over the years. I'm a bit lighter, my default is 41.3 w\165gr.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:39 PM
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Between us my friend and I have 5 rifles in 308 that really like that load. I have a Ruger American in 308 that I'm playing with and working up loads for, it puts Hornady 155 Gr A-Max Match load into 5/16" at 100 yards so I'm trying to duplicate that load, close but not there quite yet Out of 24 different loads it puts 14 into 1" or less, the worst was some surplus Malaysian stuff at 3". I figure that's pretty dang good for a $350.00 rifle. If you haven't seen them yet check them out a lot of rifle for the money.
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by essayons4791 View Post

According to what I've heard and read the military converted to the M-16 in Vietnam at the prodding of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. In some circles it was perceived that a soldier equipped with an M-14 was outgunned by his communist equivalent carrying the AK-47. As the Air Force had already acquired the Armalite AR-15, Secretary McNamara thought the AR-15 would make a dandy ready-made solution to the perceived firepower shortfall among soldiers in Vietnam. So... the AR-15 was given to Army Ordnance and after a few changes it was dubbed the M-16 and issued to units in Vietnam.

According to my uncle (18th EN BDE, A Shau valley) his M-16 was issued without a cleaning kit and he was told the rifles were "self cleaning". You can imagine the result. From other Vietnam veterans I have known (11th ACR, 173rd ABN, 27th FA RGT), I have also heard some pretty hair-raising tales in regard to the introduction of the weapon and some of the issues soldiers encountered. None of these soldiers mentioned a single problem with the "old" M-14.

Rice Paddy Daddy, etc., please chime in!

I soldiered twenty years with the M-16 family and thought it was OK. I used it with success in combat. But by the time I was handed one it's teething issues were far behind it, and all the old NCO's knew every quirk it had- so I never experienced the weapon the way the Vietnam veterans did.

I cannot recall any old soldier who had bad things to say about the M-14, except for the fact it was heavy.
The Armalite rifle, the original AR15, was adopted by Air Force General Curtis Lemay. He thought is was a good rifle for his security forces guarding aircraft and flight lines.
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara was really enthralled with technology, and this new rifle really made him excited. He decreed that the Army and Marines MUST use this rifle. (For an example of McNamara and his "Whiz Kids" do some research on the so-called McNamara Line in Vietnam. A series of exotic sensors stretched along the DMZ and the Ho Chi Minh Trail to detect enemy movement. A total failure that got good men killed)
Actually, in a combat environment like jungles, the M16 was the perfect weapon - in theory. Action comes fast and at close range from an often unseen enemy. A fast handling, fast firing weapon was a good thing.
The first ones were crippled by the wrong gun powder fouling the action and jamming the rifle. The first troops to use it soon learned to strap an assembled cleaning rod to the forearm to for quick access to clear a stuck empty from the chamber.
The problem was solved by changing the gun powder, chroming the bore, and putting on a forward assist. And getting rid of the three prong flash hider that snagged on jungle vegetation, replacing it with the familiar "bird cage".
This new rifle was designated M16A1, and it was what I was issued in 1969.
At that point we only had 20 round magazines, the selector switch was Safe, Semi, Full. In the heat of the moment it was very easy to empty the full magazine in less than 2 seconds. Going to 30 round mags and changing Full Auto to 3 Round Burst took care of that.
The rifle had to be kept clean, which is not always easy in a combat environment.

With 50 years and millions upon millions of dollars in R&D, the current M16 is a very good rifle. In a relatively close range, light weapons infantry, role.

If I had no other rifles already, I might think about buying an AR, maybe. For a beginner thinking of close range homestead protection it would be a good choice.
However, I already have a Mini14 in 5.56NATO/.223 Remington, and it fills my needs in that area.
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2016, 10:56 AM
blackpowderbill Male blackpowderbill is offline
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Default M1a

I shot the m16/and m1a in the Navy. Thousands of rounds and can't recall more than a few name of misfires. I'd take the m1a over the 16/any day.
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Old 04-14-2016, 07:54 PM
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Chevy.... Dodge.... Ford... In alphabetical order...
Anyone will haul todays load.. You will have better luck than I in the long run with (fill in blank) model...

I've never fired an M1A, but have fired a lot of "tanker" Garand models..
And fired a ton of ammo through a FAL, L1A1 model.. I've fired several military bolt guns in or converted to 308.. My favorite being the Enfield 2A1 with a sporter cut front stock.. Military stock is too nose heavy for me..
Plus a bunch of sporter bolt guns and a couple self loader sporting rifles in 308..

My 2 cents is, you put that much power in volume out looking for targets.. That is a significant thing to deal with.. Regardless how the load is delivered.. KnowwhatImean..

My 2 cents..
Good luck..
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