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Old 10-09-2015, 09:22 PM
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Default Transportation Following EMP, HEMP, NEMP

Somewhat like "Star Trek" this is sorta going where no man has gone before, well there just does not seem to be any positive and absolute information known concerning how vehicles will react following an act of war (or terrorism) where an EMP, HEMP or NEMP is detonated over this country.

Most authorities postulate that a powerful Solar Storm may wreck havoc with our electric grid, but vehicles will survive a Solar Storm without incident, however obtaining fuel may be difficult afterwards.

Some authors theorize modern vehicles will react to such a detonation with nothing more than a "hick-up" at most and keep on trucking right along. Some promote diesels as being more resistant to such an event than gas burners.

Others theorize only pre-electronic ignition vehicles will continue to function after such an event, and those vehicles are becoming few and far between. A few authorities (or so called authorities) even further suggest having a spare alternator, voltage regulator, coil, points, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, plugs and plug wires just as a precaution all stored in a Faraday Cage for a pre-electronic age vehicle.

If the previous did not provide enough confusion, (and there are volumes written about this subject), then there is ambiguous and conflicting information on how to EMP Harden one's vehicle, tractors, small engines, ATV, Motorcycles, Mopeds, etc, etc...

What are your contingency plans for transportation, if you have any, should this country be attacked with such a device. What equipment are you storing in Faraday Cages, if any, for use following such an event.
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jjr View Post
What are your contingency plans for transportation, if you have any, should this country be attacked with such a device. What equipment are you storing in Faraday Cages, if any, for use following such an event.
I haven't been too serious about a Faraday cage but only because I haven't been robustly convinced. As I think about it, I could easily set up a Faraday shelf in the cave so I really have no excuse not to.

Here's a question: Back during the Dust Bowl days cars were regularly disabled by the static charges from the dust clouds. It would be hard to find a simpler, non electronic vehicle than a Model A or T or whatever they were. Is a static charge any different than an Electro Magnetic Pulse?
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:59 AM
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Don't have a faraday cage protection setup, but sure wish I had a couple of extra CPU's for the Jeep.

Work with the faraday cage effect all the time - with electrostatic coatings. Should have a room setup, but don't.
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:26 AM
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Transportation is way down on my list of concerns. Why the need to go anywhere?
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:07 AM
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like coaltrain i don't think much on transportation, this was the first year i had a reliable vehicle on the road anyway (first in 6 years) been used to motorless transport before that.

if fuel wasn't available for years i think there would be an increase in wood gassification (common in the ww2 era shortages, running trucks and tractors with woodchips, FEMA distributes free online plans for retrofitting vehicles, was part of cold war era planning against shortages). would probably see some local bus routes pop up, reopening small train stations and reusing opperating tracks (currently only used for cargo tracks are everywhere, a few passanger trains may pop up).

personally i may fit a vehicle for woodgas for cargo transport, but would probably just stay very close to home, walking or biking as needed and focusing my attention to generating goods for local markets (firewood, food, etc sold or traded locally). i had a canoe this spring (but resold it 2 months later) there are a lot of creeks and i could take a canoe a long way.

I would also assume water taxies may pop up between towns, anyone with a boat and some way to move it could make a profit taxi/ferrying people a few miles from one town to another if the towns are connected by a river.
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by randallhilton View Post
Here's a question: Back during the Dust Bowl days cars were regularly disabled by the static charges from the dust clouds. It would be hard to find a simpler, non electronic vehicle than a Model A or T or whatever they were. Is a static charge any different than an Electro Magnetic Pulse?
I have never previously seen any information on static charges disabling vehicles during the "Dust Bowl" era. I will have to pursue reading on that subject. I agree that the Model A & T Fords were bare bones vehicles with regard to electronics.

I'm not a Physicist, so comparing an EMP event to static charged action, I will leave to someone else.
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:12 PM
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Why the need to go anywhere?
To get out of the mist of an urban area with over 400,000 people to a Parish (County to the rest of you) where there are fewer than 15,000 people total.

If nothing more, I would prefer the odds with slightly less than 15,000 rather than being mixed in with roughly 410,000. Additionally, here we have two acres, natural gas & public water.

There (2.5 hours away traveling 65 & 70 MPH on divided four lane highways all the way except for about 20 miles) we have double digit multiples of the two acres, propane, wood heater & stove (with timber available for replacement wood), a well, spring & public water. As an added bonus, there are nut & fruit trees on the country property too.

Here there is little land available for hunting less than a thirty minute drive in any direction. There hunting is as close as the back door.

NOW, where would you prefer to be in any long term disaster scenario?

Last edited by Jjr; 10-11-2015 at 05:53 PM. Reason: clarafication
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:49 PM
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would probably see some local bus routes pop up, reopening small train stations and reusing opperating tracks (currently only used for cargo tracks are everywhere, a few passanger trains may pop up).

personally i may fit a vehicle for woodgas for cargo transport, but would probably just stay very close to home, walking or biking as needed and focusing my attention to generating goods for local markets (firewood, food, etc sold or traded locally). i had a canoe this spring (but resold it 2 months later) there are a lot of creeks and i could take a canoe a long way.

I would also assume water taxies may pop up between towns, anyone with a boat and some way to move it could make a profit taxi/ferrying people a few miles from one town to another if the towns are connected by a river.
Setanta, nobody really knows what will happen. The only glimpse into this sort of thing is over 50 years old, and that data did not paint a very pretty picture of the circumstances at that day & time. With an ever increasing dependence on the electric grid (and the health of the natural gas grid is not much better) and proliferation in electronics in every day use a total disruption and indeterminate failure of the electric grid would not be welcome nor pretty.

Who to believe & what to believe? If I had the answers to those question, I would become immeasurable wealth over night!

You could be spot on with regard to the water ways, old steam engines and possible some of the very old diesel locomotives which are still operational being placed into service following any worst of circumstances. The diesel electrics are iffy in my opinion, but that is just my opinion

In this state the natural waterways were the first roads of commerce and would very likely become roads of commerce again in an all out worst case situation. I doubt steam locomotives would be effected by an EMP or Solar Storm so they would likely be returned to service in some capacity. Bicycles and draft animals would also become modes of transportation too.

Unfortunately, none of these types of transportation will benefit me getting from where I am to where I want to go. Bicycles & draft animals would be very desirable once there however.

Hopefully, we will never experience such a cataclysmic experience, but it's better to be prepared than caught totally unaware.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:27 PM
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NOW, where would you prefer to be in any long term disaster scenario?
Right here at home - that's why I see no need for any transportation.

There are more deer than people where I live. I think there are 3000 people in our entire county.

I guess you are in a "bug out" situation - hope that works out for you.....
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:42 PM
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Right here at home - that's why I see no need for any transportation.

There are more deer than people where I live. I think there are 3000 people in our entire county.

I guess you are in a "bug out" situation - hope that works out for you.....
I would like a Parish (County) with 3,000 even better than one with 15,000, and would prefer to actually live there year round, but so much of our lives are vested where we actually live. The children are just minutes away and so are major medical facilities, which are a real bonus as we age. Other amenities and their conveniences are most desirable in a normal world, but not as much so in one turned upside down.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:09 AM
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Jjr, i was speculating on the most efficent means of jerry rigging existing infrastructure. as per the boat idea, 1 horse on shore towing a boat was how ferry barges were once moved, moving a boat that could fit 20 people (size of a small commuter bus). for the most part government resources will likely go into maintaining critical infrastructure, but there would be ample opportunity for people to make small business ventures using such methods. small bus routes would be practical between small towns and a central town and a central town to the nearest big city (thats how most bus routes work here in my area now, putting some resources into keeping them running will lessen the effects on the local population and will promote commerce and such enough to support fixing thing to get them running again).

since train tracks are still in use for hauling cargo it would not take much to refit some train cars for passangers and it would make the most bang for the buck. i don't think we would see local commuter trains everywhere again, but where existing tracks are i think we would see (temporarily anyway) passanger systems return, since the cargo routes would be considered critical infrastructure the government would probably put a lot of effort into getting them running (train, then trucks, one train can carry a lot more stuff than 100 trucks), it wouldn't take much to piggyback a passanger system into it.

anyone with a mechanic shop and a manual could build a wood gassifier so i assmue in an extended emergency there would be a viable market for them. retrofitting a few trucks (not little pickups, i mean tractor trailer size) or using biodiesel (diesel trucks can run on lots of stuff, there are a few farms in my area that run their trucks on diesel made from manuer biodiesel) would make it easier to move bulk supplies from the countryside into towns (moving food), something that would stem off food riots.

anyway, i was speculating what would be easiest, given several years hardship expected, to jerry rig existing infrastructure to make a workable system.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:47 PM
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It seems a lot of people don't think much of it while there is plenty of it.

There are a lot of situation where you will wish you had fast and ready transport.

A loved one needing help, an attack by superior force

We have debated different situations. Where we would have to bug out. Since there is some distance between family, how would we get to rendezvous

There are lots of simple motors out there that might still run. Keeping fuel will be a big problem. There are a few options such as steam or wood gas

Its fine also to think you can live in an isolated community. You can't make and produce everything you need. Eventually you will need to trade with other groups railroads will probably be a good option then.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:54 PM
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An EMP is basically a huge movement of electrically charged particles moving thru the atmosphere, hence, only difference from "static electricity" is a matter of magnitude.

If you recall your calculus class exercises, the average charge inside a Faraday cage is zero, but the charge at any single point, other than dead center, is not zero. The fact that you can use your cell phone inside your car proves that. While a car's frame may adequately divert most of a lightning bolt's energy around the frame and into the ground to protect you, nobody knows just how well it would really work to protect sensitive electronic gizmos from an EMP.

The biggest problem from a large scale EMP is that it would fry the entire electrical grid all at once and it could take decades to rebuild it, so contingency plans are much different & of a much larger magnitude/duration than those to get us thru those short term black-outs we're familiar with.

A horse may burn fuel even when not in use, but at least it starts right away even on the coldest morning.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:50 PM
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Gosh, Doc, you must remember calculus better than I do. I'm guessing you integrate the force curve within the cage using the distance from the wall as the variable?

I agree from my reading that the electrical grid will be the biggest problem. The large transformers (not the little ones on the poles) are supposed to be the weakest point on the grid. Apparently, all that would be needed to protect the grid would be surge protectors/circuit breakers that would protect from overload, but it would cost billions to install them and no one wants to allocate the funds for a theoretical hazard.

Someone will need to enlighten me as to why diesel-electric locomotives would fare better than automobiles, busses and trucks. I would think they would have some type of electronic control mechanism. Maybe the older ones from the 50's and 60's...and certainly steam locomotives, if any are still around.

One Second After portrays clogged roads blocked by stalled cars, so that even the vehicles that can run have to clear the roads, and the Interstates are full of stalled cars with tanks full of fuel.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:26 PM
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Transportation is way down on my list of concerns. Why the need to go anywhere?
I'm with you. The very last thing I want to do is get stuck on a road somewhere with the rest of the knuckleheads. If there were a devastating EMP, natural or otherwise, it's effects would be so far reaching that the least of my concerns would be having one of few functioning vehicles, or be the only other geek in 300 miles with a functioning ham radio.

If it's that bad, as with most things in life, the best solution is to adapt and roll with it.

Frankly I could use less road noise in my life.
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:00 PM
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I have never previously seen any information on static charges disabling vehicles during the "Dust Bowl" era. I will have to pursue reading on that subject. I agree that the Model A & T Fords were bare bones vehicles with regard to electronics..
One of my all time favorite history books, "The Worst Hard Time" by Timothy Egan. It's a collection of survivor stories from the Dust Bowl era. The static bursts were mentioned in the description of a duster.
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Old 10-13-2015, 12:47 AM
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One of my all time favorite history books, "The Worst Hard Time" by Timothy Egan. It's a collection of survivor stories from the Dust Bowl era. The static bursts were mentioned in the description of a duster.
Thanks for the information. I will see if I can obtain a copy.
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Old 10-13-2015, 12:54 AM
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To get out of the mist of an urban area with over 400,000 people to a Parish (County to the rest of you) where there are fewer than 15,000 people total.

If nothing more, I would prefer the odds with slightly less than 15,000 rather than being mixed in with roughly 410,000. Additionally, here we have two acres, natural gas & public water.

There (2.5 hours away traveling 65 & 70 MPH on divided four lane highways all the way except for about 20 miles) we have double digit multiples of the two acres, propane, wood heater & stove (with timber available for replacement wood), a well, spring & public water. As an added bonus, there are nut & fruit trees on the country property too.

Here there is little land available for hunting less than a thirty minute drive in any direction. There hunting is as close as the back door.

NOW, where would you prefer to be in any long term disaster scenario?
Thing to do is leave NOW, while the leaving is easy, and you have the time to set up a real place.
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Old 10-13-2015, 08:58 AM
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Gosh, Doc, you must remember calculus better than I do. I'm guessing you integrate the force curve within the cage using the distance from the wall as the variable?

.
I remember the result, not how to do it. Div, grad, curl and such. Yea, the principle is that the effect every charge distance "x" from the center is "neutralized" by a charge distance x on the other side of center.

You're right about clogged roads. After the Great Snow of '67 in Chicago, they couldn't get the roads open again for a week because all the stalled/trapped vehicles in the roads prevented plows from moving thru.

I like TnAndy's suggestion: "Thing to do is leave NOW, while the leaving is easy,.."
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:39 AM
J R Adams J R Adams is online now
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GC and Coaltrain have pretty much nailed it.
You've got no place to go and all day to get there.
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