When I was young, “stopping power” was much discussed, whether for the game fields or the streets. Times change, theories change, and ammunition for the smaller caliber guns has become more effective – though of course, those improvements also improve the effectiveness of more powerful firearms.
As a young cop in the times when I was mandated to carry a revolver on patrol, my choice was either .357 Magnum with 125 grain jacketed hollow point bullets rated for 583 foot-pounds of energy per shot, or my Smith & Wesson 1955 Target revolver in .45 ACP, its barrel cut to four inches. There were brief periods when I carried the .41 Magnum S&W Model 58 and even briefer when I packed a .44 Magnum…but never did I wear the “anemic” .38 Special on patrol. I did carry a snub-nose .38 for backup and, in the early days, wore one on my own time because, hey, I wasn’t likely to really need it when I wasn’t driving a patrol car, right?
Improved ammunition changed things, particularly the “FBI Load” of the 1970s introduced by Winchester, an all-lead 158 grain .38 Special semi-wadcutter bullet at 850-900 feet per second velocity. It actually expanded – particularly the soft lead Remington version –and it soon developed the reputation of hitting like a GI .45 hardball round.
I got to know and become friends with Edmundo Mireles, the hero agent who finished the epic April 11, 1986 Miami shootout that left him and several other agents wounded and two of them dead. Ed, firing one-hand only because a .223 rifle bullet had shattered his left arm, killed both of the cop-killers with Federal brand FBI issue 158 grain lead hollow point .38 Special rounds from his Smith & Wesson Model 686.
I have known Brent Wheat for a long time and Roy Huntington, longer. These veteran street cops have an excellent discussion on the .38 Special at the GUNS magazine YouTube channel, here:
Back in the 1980’s American Handgunner printed a blurb about a S&W study (probably the S&W Academy) that showed once the recoil/power level went above .38 Spl (would include 9 mm), both accuracy and speed of fire got worse. Decades as an instructor validates that. Where you put the bullet, and sufficient penetration, has always been more important than a lot of other qualities people get all excited about.
The revolver itself has a lot going for it. All the springs are at rest unless you’re actually firing it. There’s no magazine related issues and it’ll function with anything you can fit in the chambers. Probably the safest handgun to use, especially if one is new to firearms. Does take a bit more practice to learn. The one downside is practice ammo cost. A quick check shows practice ammo around $26-$27 for 50. Buying a case can knock that down to around $22, but it’s a big hit up front. OTOH, prices rarely go down.
Right around the 23-24 minute mark they make an important point: tactics and training are more important than what you might happen to be carrying. A .38 and spare ammo is what I’m usually carrying these days unless I’m going out of my usual local travels.
“….once the recoil/power level went above .38 Spl (would include 9 mm), both accuracy and speed of fire got worse…”
Yes, the real world numbers reflect this dynamic. For example, the NYPD Firearm Discharge Reports, back when the 38 Special round was standard, indicated an average of about 2 to 3 rounds fired, per officer, per incident. Studying the NYPD statistics gave rise to the concept of the “Rule of three”. IOW, that a typical defensive exchange of gunfire involved “three shots fired in less than three seconds at a range of 3 meters or less.”
However, once the NYPD switched to 9mm, the average round count increased toward 5 or 6 rounds, per officer, per incident with some officers (occasionally) doing “Mag Dumps” that did not produce even one hit on the criminal aggressor. It is easier to “spray and pray” with a semi-auto than with a revolver! 🙂
The simple fact is that shot placement is far more important than the “Power Factor”, or bullet design, of the round being used. It may be trite, but it is simply true that a 22 LR bullet through the heart will be far more effective than a hot-loaded 10mm bullet that only manages to blow off the thumb of the aggressor.
I keep a good old S&W Model 10 (38 Special) as my “bedroom gun”. I know that it will work when I call upon it and I don’t have to worry about a jam because the magazine spring “took a set” from being compressed for months or years on end. Plus, using a revolver will not evoke anti-gun hysteria, and a political prosecution, such as might arise if I use a dreaded “Assault Weapon” instead.
Back in the day of NYPD 2.? rounds per encounter, there was some math juggling going on. I don’t recall the name of the guy who took over firearms training and revised things, but after they threw out ADs/NDs/UDs, suicides, putting injured animals down and other non conflict discharges, the round count went up. IIRC, somewhere around 4.7 rounds per encounter per officer. Mas did an article about it.
The low round count also didn’t match up with most other departmental hit percentages.
Stats can become a trap. A lot of folks have drowned in bodies of water whose average depth would have let them walk to shore. With all due respect (not trying to start a pie fight), the FBI Uniform Crime Report stats on LE gunfights at the time-pretty much for decades-showed that at 3 yards, the good guys lost 90% of the time. Action beats reaction. The 2020 NYPD FDR showed 68% of their encounters at 5 or more yards. This is somewhat different from previous years.
@WR Moore – Yes, statistics can be manipulated in various ways. Still, it is instructive to study them. I have been looking at the 2023 NYPD Use of Force Report (the most recent one), and it is full of interesting data. For example:
1) In adversarial conflict (their term for a shoot-out between cops and crooks), a total of 44 officers fired a total of 175 rounds. Therefore, in this most recent year, the average number of shots fired, per officer, was right at 4 rounds.
2) The actual break-down was as follows:
One (1) officer fired a single shot.
28 officers fired between 2 and 5 shots (most common)
5 officers fired between 6 and 10 shots
One (1) officer fired between 11 and 15 shots
Two (2) officers did mag dumps of 16 or more rounds
As far as distance goes:
45 % of the shootings took place at less then 15 feet
50% of the shooting took place at 15 feet or more
In 5% (2 cases) the range was not recorded or is unknown.
It is also useful to look at other uses of force. For example, the NYPD:
Used “bare hand” techniques to control suspected 8,006 times in this single year.
Used Tasers 1,496 times (the taser was judged effective in about 2/3 cases)
Used OC (pepper) spray 161 times
Used impact weapons only 68 times.
The data (above) marks a big shift from the old days of 1960’s-70 policing. Back then, impact weapons (batons, saps, blackjacks, etc.) would have been primary, non-lethal weapons. If they did not work, then the firearm was used right away. Not reluctantly, like with today’s police.
It is clear that, leaving aside bare-hand techniques, the taser has become the primary “Go To” tool in modern policing. It’s use, at least by the NYPD, greatly exceeds the use of OC spray, impact weapons, and firearms.
How long before we get “Phasers” with “Stun” settings?
My brother killed two criminals in different shootouts using the above ammo, one with the 158gr jacketed hollow point and the other with the lead hollow point.
When I started carrying regularly, it was a CZ-75B Compact. A great little carry gun not too small but small enough to carry. Then I moved up to a Beretta 92FS. Very easy to shoot but not very concealable without a long flannel shirt. Quite obvious in 80+ degree heat even of it didn’t print. Then I tried a Colt 2″ King Cobra loaded with SV 90 grain .38Spcl +P and never looked back. Unless I am on church security or range officer duty wearing the Beretta or a 1911, it’s the Colt that easily hides under a T-shirt. I can’t imagine myself getting into any kind of trouble that only John Wick could resolve so a loaded wheel gun with a couple of speed strips in the watch pocket of my jeans keeps me comfortable and confident just about anywhere.
Just remember to train. I have a class with Marty at SAF later this year to remove any training scars I may have picked up along the way, amd really looking forward to it.
I always figured .38 Spl+P and 9mm Luger were pretty much the same stopping power. I find snubnose revolvers really easy to conceal. For self-defense, we are supposed to only fire double-action, but I love to cock the hammer back once in a while at the range. Single-action trigger pulls are so beautiful.
These days I shoot more 38 Special than anything else. My K frames are loaded with Buffalo Bore LHP +P. My J frames are loaded with Federal 110 gr Hydra-Shok, not because of any great terminal effect, but because the light recoil allows me to fire 5 rounds one handed without shifting my grip.
I like .38 Special 148 grain wadcutters in my .357 Ruger Police-Service Six, in my old Galco Speedmaster. Ballistol and a piece of “Chore Boy” copper scrubbing pad help keep the cylinder build up to a minimum. Old school, sure, but at 69 I’m now an old man too.
When I went to the Sheriff’s Academy in 1983 we were allowed to carry what ever we could qualify with. I being a young man at the time had little $ and borrowed a friends uncle’s revolver. He was a cop on a local PD and he carried a S&W M13. He let me use his S&W M10HB. It was a great gun and I shot very well with it. I still own 2 S&W Model 10HB’s! When I graduated I was allowed to carry it as I had qualified with it. Back then, IIRC the Nyclad bullet had been released as well as the Silver-tip. I carried Nyclad bullets as they worked as designed. I never felt like I was at a disadvantage carrying the M10HB, I knew if I needed it I could put the bullets on the mark.
Now this ill watch! My warm and fuzzy daily pocket companion and I are going on more than a decade together..not one malfunction or reason to doubt it’ll do what I ask..J-frames carry so easy.
In my youth I was all about .357 magnum, hence the email address. However, I am more than happy to carry .38 special today. I have come to appreciate the modern trend towards light recoil, low flash, and inside-out hollow point ammunition such as Honey-badger from Black Hills. I am also a fan of good old wadcutters, too, even in my magnum revolvers.
My wife just picked up a .38 snub nose 5 shot revolver. The ammo I issued her? Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel NYPD 135 gr +P, which is street proven.
Gonna have some snap to it but doable.
Roger, bullet placement. A neighbor of mine, here in the shadow of Aspen, killed a bear sow several months ago with a .177 pellet gun to the dismay of most of the neighborhood and wildlife officers. He had intended to scare it off because of the numbers of kids in the neighborhood by shooting it in the rump. Well, it was broad daylight and the round would up in a lung and the bear bled out. There’s documentation of a 1953 large grizzly being terminated with a .22 LR single shot rifle in the hands of a well experienced, unflappable marks-woman at https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/ Nuff said.
I’ve always been leery of the “average shots per gunfight” statistic. If the register is going to run out of tape at the grocery store, it will do so in the line I’m waiting in.
I don’t get the register tape change very often. I get the incompetent clerk who shouldn’t be allowed to play with bubbles, or the chatterbox who wants to talk to everyone. I don’t mind the self checkout for these very reasons.
Every time I use the self-checkout I get the rudest cashier!
Still my “go-to” round for EDC, the 158 LSWC-HP+P. Worked for me in the NYPD, saved my partner from some serious injury, not against a 2-legged foe, but a trained, and highly motivated canine, unfortunately. Burglary-in Progress call, responded, caller let her German Shepherd out, he intercepted us, gave the indicated response, sadly though, we were the good-guys. No other alternatives, damn good dog. In other cases, my good friend and I were into reloading/handloading. We learned it was a simple task to use a bullet-puller, use Department brass, primer, and projectile – just “replace” the powder and charge, with something a little more substantial. I seem to recall SR4756 as the powder we used, probably above published +P loadings at that time. Used them at the outdoor range up in Rodman’s Neck, range officers asked; “what the Hell are these?” Mas has quoted on some occasions: “Six straight from my 38 beats all your jive from the 45”. Author lost to antiquity.
The speaker was a tough black cop in one of the most dangerous precincts in NYC, back in the ’70s. He had killed a thug shooting at him with a .45. I asked him if he didn’t feel a little under-gunned in the moment, and I recall his exact words as “Shooting straight with my .38 beat him giving me jive with his .45.” 🙂 You have a helluva good memory, brother!
Hey Mas, speaking of “medium power,” I’m now up to 86 pages on my book draft on the 50th anniversary of the Beretta 92 pistol series.
Being even mindful of copyright laws, do I have your permission to use both some direct quotes and images from your excellent 2005 “Gun Digest Book of Beretta Pistols?” Or do I need to contact Gun Digest Books to obtain that permission?
Either way, not only will I properly cite your book in my Bibliography, I’ll also include the Amazon link in order to encourage my readers to buy your book as well. Thanks in advance and keep up the great work!
Sure.
Great, Mas, thanks so much!