We’ve talked here before about the “guns on campus” issue. Adults in the higher education environment do so (or want to) primarily for two reasons: a hedge against “school shooting” horrors, and for routine protection against muggers, rapists, etc. who consider “gun free zones” to be safe game preserves in which to hunt human victims.
Here, however, is a third good reason. It comes verbatim from one of my graduates, who spends his days at a major institution of higher education as a grad student and researcher, in a letter he sent to a state senator:
“I am a graduate student at a major Florida university. I am 27 years old. I work in biomedical research studying a condition with which my wife is afflicted. The laboratory in which I work is located on campus.
“Recently, an extremist animal activist group known as “Negotiation is Over” has been sighted on our campus. In spite of having received trespass warnings, they were recently sighted handing out fliers offering $100 bounties on the photographs and personal information of students who, like myself, conduct animal research. They have already posted on their website the name, address, home telephone number, and license plate number of a researcher in our department.
“These individuals utilize violent language and rhetoric, including the following statements taken from their website“’Every time a vivisector’s car or home — and, eventually, the abuser him/herself — blows up, flames of liberation light up the sky.’
and,
“’Students also need to understand that making the wrong choice will result in a lifetime of grief. Aspiring scientists envision curing cancer at the Mayo Clinic. We need to impart a new vision: car bombs, 24/7 security cameras, embarrassing home demonstrations, threats, injuries, and fear. And, of course, these students need to realize that any personal risk they are willing to assume will also be visited upon their parents, children, and nearest & dearest loved ones. The time to reconsider is now.’
“I feel that my life and the lives of my loved ones are in real danger. Other researchers at UCLA have had their cars and homes firebombed and have been the target of regular death threats. While I respect the value of law enforcement, the expectation of a sub two minute police response time is generally unrealistic – and a lot of damage can be done in two minutes as a former law enforcement officer like yourself knows.
“I am a concealed weapons or firearms license holder in the state of —— and have been since 2007. I have participated in over 100 hours of firearms and firearms safety instruction, including courses on the use and application of deadly force taught by a former chair of the firearms committee for ASLET and an ILEETA advisory board member. I have been certified by the NRA as an instructor in home firearm safety and certified pistol. Yet, in spite of all this, I am defenseless because I choose to work on a college campus. I must leave work unarmed, go to a location that is known to me to be dangerous, and return home unarmed. Any stops I make along the way on any day in which I am going to or from work must be conducted unarmed.
“For months, I have e-mailed you and other senators about this matter. I have received form letters and polite, vague responses from aides. My greatest moment of hope came when Senator —- —– proposed SB 234, which originally had language to permit concealed carry on campus – until Senator —– ——- suggested (and the criminal justice committee approved) the gutting of the bill. Their excuse had to do with an anecdote told by a family member of a young woman who was killed in a negligent homicide off campus near (a) State University. The timing of SB 234 was apparently “politically inconvenient” in light of recent events. To my knowledge, the manslaughterer involved was not a licensed permit holder and was most certainly not observing basic firearms safety.
“I am beat-down and exhausted from expressing my safety concerns and attempting to move through the proper channels. I could count up the e-mails, but there are many. Surely over 50 by now. The vague responses and form replies march on. Meanwhile, those who would harm me continue to flagrantly violate the law, trespassing on campus in spite of repeated warnings.
“Apparently, pieces of paper are not adequate defense against criminal activity.
“To be frank, I’m not sure I’m asking you to DO anything anymore. That has gotten me nowhere. Instead, I’ll ask you the following:
“Why do I, as a law abiding citizen, have less freedom to protect my loved ones than a criminal has to threaten their safety?
“Why do I feel that my compliance with the law is now at odds with the safety of my family? How should I respond to these competing interests? How would you respond, senator, if you were in my situation and had my limited resources?
“What incentive do I have to continue to respect the law and work through the proper channels when it seems that my elected officials cannot even manage to protect a freedom enshrined in the bill of rights?
“Why can I carry a firearm in Wal-Mart, where I can also purchase alcohol, ammunition, and underpants, but I cannot go armed at an institution of higher learning in a workplace occupied predominantly by advanced degree holders?
“Since I can’t go armed on campus, what measures do you propose to keep my family safe? And please don’t suggest law enforcement – (our university police department) has one of the finest response times in the nation, but if you mime a stabbing for two minutes, that comes out to a lot of knife wounds.
“If you could respond to these questions or the sentiment behind them, I’d sure appreciate it.
“With respect,
“A concerned student”
Right on!
The sad thing is that I fear the senator addressed will just send back a perfunctory form letter with none of this citizen’s valid questions answered but just lots and lots of obfuscation.
He makes some very strong points. What other reasons does a person need?
Very well put!
I also work at a university under the same misguided laws. Recently we’ve received multiple threats of physical violence from a mentally unstable former student, and the response from campus police is to “step up patrols”… whatever that means. Being that our campus is a public institution, our doors remain unlocked with no monitoring of who comes and goes. Since I bump into a campus police officer maybe once every month or two, it doesn’t seem very likely that they’re going to be in the right place at the right time.
Perhaps what saddens me most is that these institutions of higher learning are the places we trust to teach our children the ability to reason and think critically. Yet it doesn’t take more than a third grade education to look at the idea of gun-free zones and realize they completely defy simple logic.
Maybe it’s time to move to Utah.
It would be nice if universities respected and supported basic human rights.
Having finished my “higher education” a few years ago at one of the best schools in the U.S. I can say tolerance is encouraged for everyone except those with conservative views.
Professors can and do encourage singling out a conservative in class. I recall seeing quite a bit of anti- Bush or anti-Republican stuff posted by faculty. Post anything anti-Obama and you run the risk of being mobbed.
The town in which my school was located was a “may issue” town. To be considered you had to have a reason such as being a victim of violent crime. But self-defense was not a valid reason and the application even stated that.
If you end up going to a school like that, make the most of it. Even in a “progressive” school, there are things you can do to help protect yourself. A good knife, flash light, and OC spray isn’t bad.
Honestly though, if I were to go back to school, I’d make sure I could carry. Sure the “best” school might be no CCW but there are some good schools that will allow CCW.
Not all of the faculty/students were rabid anti-gunners. A decent amount were just misinformed. Heck I even managed to reason with a few…
I just had a great idea on how to stop these fierce individuals, who by the sounds of your letter to the senate, must have killed alot of people?? what if you stopped hurting animals??? isn”t that what “they” are asking you to do. sounds pretty cut and dry to mewhat gives you more of a right to continue to cause pain than their right to ask you to stop?? do you even know where these “test subjects” come from? why is it okay for you to use monkeys that were ripped out of their dead mothers arms in the jungle after she had been shot but it isn”t okay for anyone to threaten your children??? if the animals could defend themselves we woulden”t be having this conversation but as you know too well they are alone and helpless against humans like you who would strap them down and tune out their screams their plees their tears!!!! well, wake up and know that these animals are going to be heard and there are not enough jails to house the masses of those who would free them by whatever means necessary. seems to me you have 2 choices……..
It comes as no surprise that these organizations are on the rise again. Prior to 9/11 the No1 domestic terror group sought by the FBI were animal rights groups.
@vkstr (much much less diplomatic post self-edited) whether or not the research is right is a separate issue, and is no justification for issuing terrorist death threats on the researchers, their families and friends. Medical animal research is a big noisy target that the ignorant can latch onto and rally against without having to think too hard or do anything about REAL Animal cruelty in our society, because that would be a lot harder.
I too am strongly against abusing animals, but I don’t see any justification in harming another living thing to bring about change in the way that animals are treated. Those that seek to harm humans because they wish to stop animal cruelty are just as bad as those who are harming the animals.
vkstr: Wow bud. To address your last point….considering how many drug offenders we lock up every year we have MORE than enough prison space to lock up EVERY single person in this country who actually thinks animal research is a valid reason to harm human beings.
Careful though, not only can you get locked up for doing violence and potentially for advocating it…some researchers may not be as scrupulous about following the law as the letter writer. Getting shot by a person you are attacking in America will not make you a martyr, just dead.
Sadly, the letter will probably get nothing other than a form e-mail again.
Political correctness is much more important than civil rights or the safety of mere citizens.
What a warped world in which we live where humans would destroy another human to save an animal.
Mas:
Thanks for publishing the letter.
Thanks also for allowing the public comment of VKSTR.
It is informative to read, in their own words, comments that illustrate how unbalanced people think. Boiled down to the short and sweet , the advocate for the terrorists says ” do what we want and we wont hurt you”.
There is a lot more that could be said but Ill leave it at that.
Regards
GKT
Wow!
What a powerful letter! As a resident of the same state, I certainly agree with his position. I sure hope this gets some traction, because it truly is ridiculous that law abiding citizens are expected to work and live in situations where they are basically at the mercy of any criminal who decides to go head-hunting in the “gun free zone”.
Faced with those same circumstances in the past, I carried CCW anyway. Then voted against those who keep us from our 2nd amendment rights. My life is more important than being fired, or a little jail time. DEAD is forever.
Most-likely outcome: students will desert “terrorized” programs for other majors and graduate programs.
As long as any kind of animal-research-based field makes those doing it targets, better students with more options will shift to other programs and careers. After all, nobody’s terrorizing graduate assistants or profs teaching English.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY WANTS TO CARRY A FIREARM, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE DO NOT COMPREHEND THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING SO. LIKE JEFF COOPER SO APTLY STATED, ” OWNING A GUN NO MORE MAKES YOU ARMED THAN OWNING A GUITAR MAKES YOU A MUSICIAN.” GOING TO SOME 4 0R 5 DAY COURSES DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE TRAINED. THAT IS JUST THE BEGINNING MY FRIEND. SHOOTING AT A TARGET AND WINNING A GUNFIGHT ARE WORLDS APART. TARGETS DO NOT SHOOT BACK! THERE ARE FAR TO MANY TRAINERS OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT FULLY QUALIFIED FOR GUNFIGHT/COMBAT TRAINING. THERE ARE FAR TO MANY CITIZENS WHO EITHER HAVE NO TRAINING OR ARE IMPROPERLY TRAINED. WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH CAMPUS CARRY? THE SAME THING IT HAS TO DO WITH CARRYING IN PUBLIC PERIOD. YOU CAN PLAY YOUR GUITAR AT HOME OR IN SOME STUDIO, BUT IF YOU WANT TO PLAY FOR THE PUBLIC YOU BETTER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. UNFORTUNATELY WITH GUNS YOU WILL NOT JUST GET BOOED, YOU WILL GET YOURSELF OR AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER KILLED. THE ONLY REDEEMING FACTOR IN ALL THIS IS THAT MOST GUNFIGHTS TAKE PLACE BETWEEN 7 AND 10 FEET. THIS DECREASES YOUR CHANCES OF MISSING, BUT LOW AND BEHOLD YOU CAN STILL MISS AS MANY POLICE SHOOTINGS HAVE DEMONSTRATED. LET US FOCUS ON THE RIGHT TO COMPETENCY AND THEN THE RIGHT TO CARRY FIREARMS IN PUBLIC. I AM PRO GUN OF COURSE, AND BELIEVE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY ON CAMPUS. I BELIEVE HOWEVER THAT THIS SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE PROFICIENT, NOT THE TO THE AVERAGE JOE WHO SHOOTS CANS IN THE BACKYARD ONCE IN A WHILE.
CORRECTION, THE LAST SENTENCE SHOULD READ NOT TO THE AVERAGE JOE INSTEAD OF NOT THE TO THE AVERAGE JOE.
I have tangled with NIO before, the animal lib movement tend to not prefer direct attacks. I got linked from my site (A Million Gods) to here.
And I will point this out to you, even with concealed carry someone with the knife has an advantage over you in that they have ambushed you (No one is pulling their knife out 30 yards away charging at you screaming bloody murder) with the knife already out. The Animal Lib movement work through fear and non personal attacks (arson and bombs and property damage). They don’t prefer physical assault as it often results in capture.
If you can keep your head about you despite multiple stab wounds (and I guarantee you won’t just out of the pain and shock) then the gun may be an equaliser. However for the most part it’s there to make you feel better and more confident, in a gun fight where no one wears identification things can get kind of deadly kind of fast. Even soldiers at war often end up shooting each other or innocent bystanders, and forgive me for saying this “your plan is an accident waiting to happen@. I am not a fan of concealed carry and not a fan of private fire arms ownerships but I understand americans are kind of attached to their guns. But I am posting out of some comfort to your students.
To your student.
Camille Marino is either a lawyer or an ex law student and kind of delusional. Her website is run by her and Lisa Grossman. They show a complete lack of understanding about biology and Camille herself has claimed to have survived paraplegia with full recovery (i believe she means coma).
She is insane but cowardly, most animal libbers don’t discuss their insane plans on the internet. She’s like those loud mouthed islamic militants, the real ones are quiet dour angry men not brash firebrands.
She vaunts herself over her intelligence and she probably is quite smart compared to the average animal lib supporter (Note I differentiate between rights and liberation, punishing someone with who keeps dogs for fighting is a different kettle of fish to attacking quadraplegics. Oh yes Camille Marino has threatened to do just that.
http://a-million-gods.blogspot.com/2011/07/dear-camille-marino-you-are-horrible.html
She is all talk and no walk. Trust me, ignore her nonsense and you will get far. I know it’s scary but she has no actual power (and is probably on umpteen amounts of FBI watchlists because she actually spells out violence against us on her website).
And I figured I would eventually run into someone who has met her cronies in person.
The animal lib that you should fear are the ones you don’t see.
A
I see the point that’s being made here, but note that these types of people are cowards. Odds are, they’ll never get in a straight-up fight. They’re the knife-in-the-back, rig-your-car-with bombs types, and as such it seems like concealed carry is somewhat irrelevant when it comes to them.
It’s funny – they call for a war on their website, but actual fighting is the LAST thing they’ll be doing.
All that said, though, concealed carry on campus is still justified by the other reasons given.
@Tim from CO:
Political Correctness dictates you must tolerate everybody except the intolerant. Wait! Double Standard! In reality, that’s nothing short of hypocritical intolerance of the intolerant!
@Mark – I agree, proficiency should be required with a “perfect government”. But the minute we give the other side any slack, they’ll fight for more. Next would be “you need a valid reason” like May-Issue states.
Like I mentioned above, a lot of counties in Kalifornia require a reason and many won’t accept self-defense.
@Avicenna- Life isn’t risk free. Granted concealed carry can carry a small risk to others. From what’s been seen with the states that are pro-carry is crime goes down. Criminals aren’t stupid, if they know concealed carry is common then they’re less likely to commit crimes in that area. So in reality, those who carry concealed protect those who do not carry in a way.
For example, concealed carry on campus would reduce muggings etc because the bad guy aren’t interested in being hurt. Those who aren’t carrying benefit as well.
In general, most of us who carry, spend a lot of time, effort, and money to make sure we’re proficient as to not endanger the innocent. Sure there are some bad apples, but there are some bad apples in every walk of life.
I know it’s easy to see gun owners as Rambo-wannabes. But I think a great majority of us simply enjoy taking responsibility for our lives, that and plinking is pretty fun. To me, firearms are merely tools for emergencies. It’s the same as keeping a fire extinguisher or knowing basic first aid etc.
We hope it never happens, but we recognize that it CAN happen. I won’t let a loved one bleed to death because I didn’t know how to control bleeding. Nor will I allow people in my household to die because of a fire and I didn’t have a fire extinguisher. Finally, I won’t allow loved ones to be harmed by violent criminals because I wasn’t armed or prepared.
I realize some people may not like firearms for whatever reason, and I respect that and that’s their decision. All I would like to ask is that they allow me to make my own decision as well.
To Avicenna:
It’s amazing to me that you attempt to minimize the threat animal libs (and by extension, most extremist orgs in the US) pose to others, but in the same comment also maximize the (merely hypothetical, not statistically provable by any means) threat a single well-meaning concealed weapon holder poses to others by describing it as “an accident waiting to happen”…I’m not a fan of your obvious, ignorance-based bias against firearms and on that basis I decry your claims of “ineffectiveness” against knife attacks as an additional venue of ignorance. You clearly have no personal or second-hand knowledge of how much a person’s situational awareness (in reference “color code of awareness conditions”) increases when carrying- whether open or concealed. You also clearly have no understanding or appreciation for how the mind-set of “stay out of dangerous situations to whatever logical extent possible” saves many carriers from being in a position where they ever even have to fire their weapons (much less draw them) to stop an attacker. I’m going to stop here because I doubt there’s enough I could say to ever get through to you.
To the guy with the stuck caps-lock problem:
All of us- repeat, ALL OF US- have the human right to self-defense. There is no “proficiency” qualifier, nor should there be. Your claim is the same as those who desire a literacy test to be required in order to vote.
To everyone else:
It’s been said time and time again: “concealed means concealed.”
After forwarding Mas’ entry above I received this reply is from a long time, well respected LEO I know who has the authority to speak such….. I find it quite relatable to the topic at hand (and appreciate his STRONG support of the CHP holder citizen):
Ok, here is the test. How many gun owners are there in denton, dallas, and Tarrant counties. Of those how many are chl holders. Of those how many of them, their family and or victims of gun violence have been through the er last year. I don’t mean just shot but include those frightened by the sight of a weapon that they had a heart attack or stroke, ran into something and hurt themselves trying to get away, got hit with it or hell had an accident while trying to read the billboard on the next gunshow. I want documentation of all injuries concerning or connected to chl holders and guns.
I bet they could all go to the er together in a vw beatle.
I expressed the above test to an er nurse at drmc. This rn made the statement that there are too many guns. I simply asked how long have you worked at drmc. How many gunshot victims have you treated in those 3 years. Her reply was two, both self inflicted/intentional . I rest my case.
To Mark,
I firmly believe that all rights should come with some proficiency requirement. Some scrutiny from the government and its agents who know better. How about limiting your right to free speech? You haven’t passed the official training requirement so hold your thoughts to yourself. And how about the franchise ? You haven’t shown the government that you deserve the right to vote. So we’ll vote for you. OK? Oh and how about that freedom of religion crap? We’ll be telling you where to go on Sunday or Saturday or how about Wednesdays at Rev. Wrights church ? Like you said, the second amendment stuff shouldn’t be a problem. Its about the kids.
TO ANDY AND TIM, FIRST TO TIM; I SEE YOUR POINT ABOUT GIVING GROUND POSSIBLY LEADING TO A SLIPPERY SLOPE. I WILL SAY THAT YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT TO MAKE THAT DECISION FOR YOURSELF. YOU ALSO AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE NEED FOR PROFICIENCY. IF SOMEONE IS BLEEDING AND NEEDS FIRST AID AND YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO THEY MAY DIE ANYWAY, BUT YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT. ALSO LIKE YOU SAID, TO SAVE YOUR LOVED ONES YOU MUST BE ARMED AND PREPARED. CARRYING A FIRE ARM DOES NOT MAKE YOU ARMED UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED LIKE JEFF COOPER SAID IN MY EARLIER QUOTE. I AM FOR ARMED CITIZENRY AND ADMONISH THOSE WHO OWN GUNS TO DEFEND THEIR SECOND AMENDMENT FREEDOMS BY BEING A RESPONSIBLE OWNER. MOST WESTERN NATIONS WHO LOST THEIR GUN RIGHTS WERE DUE TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE SUCH RESPONSIBILITY. NOW TO ANDY, HAVING A RIGHT AND KNOWING WHEN AND HOW TO EXERCISE THAT RIGHT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND WITH THAT I COMPLETELY AGREE. CARRYING A FIREARM IN PUBLIC INVOLVES MORE THAN JUST YOUR RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE, IT INVOLVES THE RIGHTS OF EVERYONE WHO IS DRAWN INTO YOUR MOMENT WHEN THAT DEFENSE WITH A GUN BECOMES NECESSARY. THERE IS NO PROFICIENCY QUALIFIER TO OWN A GUN. THERE SHOULD BE TO CARRYING ONE IN PUBLIC, DO NOT GET THE TWO CONFUSED. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THEN YOU ARE IN DISAGREEMENT WITH PRACTICALLY EVERY COMPETENT FIREARMS EXPERT OUT THERE INCLUDING MASSAD AYOOB. GO OUT THERE AND GET SOMEONE INNOCENT KILLED DUE TO YOUR INCOMPETENCE, AND LET US SEE HOW LONG YOU KEEP THAT RIGHT. SIGNED, STUCK CAPS LOCK.
“Why do I, as a law abiding citizen, have less freedom to protect my loved ones than a criminal has to threaten their safety?
…
Because there is a country (a United Kingdom actually) of approximately 60,394,259 souls with whom you’ve had a special relationship since the birth of your nation. That Kingdom has pursued a vigorous gun-control policy throughout the 20th Century and has specifically denied self defence for two generations. Yet we seem to get by. We are hailed as having the “Gold Standard of Gun Control”. Our bureaucrats fiddle the crime figures and are in bed with the media to keep us diverted from the truth. That Britain’s violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union. The myth of a green and pleasant land dies hard. Why else would more people resign or be arrested over phone hacking than when the British police kill innocent people?
Whether I play a guitar well or not, I should have the option to possess as many as I want and to carry them anywhere I want.
As someone who has spent the last ten year at a university, from undergraduate to PhD, I can tell you that you can do anything on a college campus except one thing: challenge the status quo.
University faculty and administrators are overwhelmingly anti-gun, let alone anti-CCW. And they are going to stay that way.
To Matt, nobody ever said you do not have that right. You also have the right to be laughed at or booed if you play terrible and act like a competent musician. On the other hand a guitar is not a gun. You not knowing what your doing can get you or a bystander killed, which of course leads to a lengthy prison sentence or an early funeral for you. You also have the right to these two options as well. I have the right to free speech. If I say something out of line I will also suffer the consequences of improperly exercising that right. Look everybody seems to think I am saying they have to be competent to have their rights. All I am saying is exercise your rights responsibly. Part of that responsibility is competence with a firearm. Nobody is saying you have to be an elite combat soldier with a thousand kills before you carry a firearm.
To long island Mike, read my reply to Matt so you can understand that my point has nothing to do with having your rights dictated by the government or anybody else. I am a staunch advocate of the right to bear arms and I would defend your right to do so. However, my point has to do with the nature of firearms and the consequences of incompetency. Now you did say rights should come with some proficiency. Actually your rights should come with responsibility and firearms with proficiency, so your rights can continue to be exercised. Let me just take one of your examples. I have the right to vote, so if I chose to vote for a Communist or a Nazi which is my right. You should be willing to defend my right to do this even if you do not agree with it. However, if everybody voted like I did we would soon have no rights. Having a right and the responsibility to exercise it wisely are two different things. My view does not make me a pro-government gun regulator, it makes me a defender of my freedoms and yours by responsibly exercising those freedoms.
correction: the line I wrote pertaining to voting for a communist or Nazi should read that is my right, not which is my right.
Mark, I think we’re on a similar page. While I believe there should be some kind of training/proficiency, I will never vote for that in this lifetime. Simply because the other side is going to strangle us with it. Anti-gunners love to use the words “reasonable” or “moderate” but that is rarely their intent, if ever. The other side wants a complete and total gun ban.
I wish some people would take it upon themselves to ensure they know how to operate their firearm and be able to use it effectively but I’ve seen otherwise. I suspect there is a small minority of gun owners who don’t know how to clear their piece, let alone what to do if it malfunctions. Heck, that’s one reason I try to go to the range when no one is there. I don’t want to be shot but some guy that’s sitting there trying to figure out why his gun won’t fire and can’t keep it pointed down range.
All we need are a few of these guys causing accidents to ruin CCWs and gun ownership for the rest of us. Gun-control groups have shown they’ll exploit anything they can to push their agenda.
On concern with under-trained CCW holders is a “blue on blue” incident. It happens to police and can easily happen with CCW holders. I draw on a bad guy but another CCW holder mistakes me for the bad guy and I get shot because the other CCW holder didn’t witness the whole event and acts too hastily. Or even easier, an overzealous CCW holder fires a bit too recklessly and a bystander is injured or killed. Suddenly all our CCWs will start sprouting wings…
Thankfully none of that has happened, at least as far as I’m aware of. If/when it does, our road just got a bit more bumpy.
Andy –
I have been stabbed before, trust me the only gun that would have saved me from being stabbed would have been the one mounted on a tank and it would have been primarily due to me being inside the damn tank! I didn’t see it coming and the only way in retrospect to have not had a knife go through my arm would have been to walk around with a gun in my hand.
I suffered a lot at the hands of people with guns and to me an armed population is one that’s perpetually suspicious of each other. It links with the whole fearmongering nature of humans as a whole (despite the fact our societies have been actually becoming safer as a whole we still think we are unsafe.)
I have dealt with Animal Lib before. They produce an atmosphere of fear by just toeing the line of legal vs. illegal. The ones who wave banners (for pity sake! I posted up a photo of Ms Marino on my blog. She isn’t Osama bin Laden – World Hide and Seek champion 2001 – 2011; she is a dumbass who thinks she is smart and hangs around the University of Florida bugging scientists and students about the technology that she cooly admits using to survive.)
I minimise the threat of animal liberation because for the most part they are banner wavers. They are like those flag burners you see everytime someone does something that can be vaguely construed as anti islamic. They aren’t the ones to worry about, the ones you need to worry are the quiet angry ones who will do something about it. Those guys don’t boast about their plans.
Russel, our actual violent crime rates are going down at the moment. And a lot of other countries don’t charge fist fights as violent crime. I know, I lived in Prague for a while and when people pick fights the cops just send them to hospital and say “boys will be boys” and have a good laugh about it. Our main problem is our habit of casual violence.
Friday Night is Fight Night, the all night drinking was supposed to deal with that but our habit of binging and looking for a fight is what is pushing those crime figures along. I don’t think guns are a solution as much as trying to figure out how to stop binging and how to break the culture of fights. And comparing ourselves to the EU is an amiable thing we are in the top 20 safest nations world wide. Our problem is crime is so rare that we report every single one as if it were the scariest thing on earth. Even Gunchester pales in comparison to say most cities in the USA despite our fears about it.
Animal liberation aren’t deterred by guns simply because they hit you where it hurts. When you aren’t able to use a weapon without looking like an immense prick.
If your response to someone throwing paint at you is to shoot them then you are a prick. There is no way you will come of looking like anything else. You can rugby tackle them to the ground and smack them a few times but the gun bit is a bit of overkill. You cannot defeat death threats (threats mind you, not actual attempts) with a gun. Arson is the only activity that places them at risk but they tend to give up if caught rather than fight. Most of their activities are harassment and producing the fear of attack.
And I never said to ignore animal lib, I said “ignore Camille Marino” she was regarded as a rising star in their movement but is now regarded as an embarassment because she actively threatened human lives. The people to worry about are the ALF who don’t boast about their achievements.
With regards to animal cruelty, it’s the animal lib folks who often treat animals the worst.
These are evil, immoral folks, people. And a case in point of why we choose to live our lives armed (but not exactly filled with worry about being attacked).
Stay alert, stay aware, but get out there and enjoy life.
A sad state of affairs indeed. I have had my own dealings with Senators, Congressmen, ad nauseum over gun issues and the tepid responses continue. This researcher has my support and sympathy.
“If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective.” Ted Nugent.
“My view does not make me a pro-government gun regulator, it makes me a defender of my freedoms and yours by responsibly exercising those freedoms.”
I have heard this one before. It is none of anyone’s business if I have guns, why I buy guns, how I use guns or …heavens…how knowledgeable I am about guns. The idea that in a country of 300 million people with a good 100 million adults every one is “required” either by law or social pressure to seek training and to do it on a recurring basis is simply moronic. It ain’t happening. If someone elects to get training fine. Otherwise it is none of my business nor yours. If I elect to put my guns in a slick Liberty safe or leave them out on the nite table, if I elect to not clean them every time I shoot them, if I throw the stupid key away to the stupid internal lock, it is my business. Nobody else. Neither my neighbors nor my government. Freedom is about being able to do dumb things and not having some “church lady” telling others what is good and nice.
“MOST WESTERN NATIONS WHO LOST THEIR GUN RIGHTS WERE DUE TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE SUCH RESPONSIBILITY.”
Sorry but you need to go back to the history books to understand why the means to RESISTANCE are removed by governments the world over.
“CARRYING A FIREARM IN PUBLIC INVOLVES MORE THAN JUST YOUR RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE, IT INVOLVES THE RIGHTS OF EVERYONE WHO IS DRAWN INTO YOUR MOMENT WHEN THAT DEFENSE WITH A GUN BECOMES NECESSARY.”
Again a misreading of life in general. My god given right to defense is paramount. It trumps everyone elses right for the “moment”. Not any different then the driver who swerves his car into my car to avoid being crushed by a semi that has swerved into him. Or maybe we should have “truck crushing you” training every year?
In the intervening half a microsecond required to defend my wife/child/myself I am not going to worry about the little old lady who may be shot or fall over dead from a heart attack or trip and fall and twist her ankle. The military world calls that collateral damage. Sorry, if it sounds cruel or heartless, but only after that half microsecond is over does it matter. You know why? Because I am going to live and someone else is going to be bleeding out on the pavement hopefully. You can feel free to call a meeting with the perp beating your wife to death as you hear her screams from the garage in the morning on her way to work. You can call a meeting with all the “innocents” you can identify in a 100 yard radius of the perp in the process of slicing your child up to steal his 5 dollar allowance. Have a great planning session with them all. I wish you luck. I will neither have the time nor inclination to plan out every possible implication of defending my life or others. Although Mas argues that video tapes are misleading, I recommend that you watch some police shootouts on youtube and in about 3 minutes you clearly get to understand the shear chaos, the nearly absolute lack of disciplined fire control, and the lack of any elegant ‘bruce lee’/clint smith/mas ayoob/tiger mcgee (and I do love them all) “this is how you do it” responses. Much of confrontations are driven on pure animal reactions. And 99% of people don’t have the money or time for such training. Got that ? 99% are not going to be spending a couple of grand every year to get training. It will never happen so stop dreaming. That doesn’t mean they loose the right to self defense. Not in my world.
So Mark, if you are recommending that folks who have the time and money to get training, fine. Again, I don’t care how you spend YOUR money or time. Have fun. Otherwise admonitions that the world will end if you don’t, are to be ignored.
@Avicenna
I’m sorry to hear about your attack. Hopefully they caught the perpetrator and the wounds healed up.
While I can’t speak about your incident, quite a few instructors say most attacks and violence is avoidable, which I’m inclined to believe as true. But it’s not to say your incident was avoidable, just most tend to be. I’m sure many CCW holders here will agree with me, owning and carrying a gun for self-defense makes you much more calmer in my opinion. We take it very seriously and we can’t allow ourselves to voluntarily get into a confrontation.
Another trait that usually comes along with CCW, as Mark mentioned, is awareness. It sort of comes with the training and the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon in public. Again, I’m not saying this applies to your incident but there usually are signs of an attack, however, not everyone can recognize them.
With a contact weapon, an attack has to first close the distance or hide somewhere in a blind spot etc. A lot of firearms training, deals with pre-assault indicators. Maybe your attacker had been tailing you for awhile but it went unnoticed. Or when you saw him, there are probably several subtle signs suggesting an attack was possible but cannot be seen unless you know what you’re looking for. None of this is meant to say it was your fault, just having a firearm then and the proper training could have given you a good chance to come out unscathed.
Also you mentioned how rare crime is and how safe the US is. That’s absolutely correct from all the crime reports I’ve seen. Are you also aware gun sales have been going up non-stop? Gun ownership is at a record high while crime is dropping. But if you look at states or cities with high crime, you also see restricted gun ownership. I know probably dozens of victims of violent crime in CA but none in CO, and most will agree CA is notorious for gun control, while CO is rather pro-guns.
Granted this is just my own observation but it’s pretty clear to me at least. Stay away from anti-gun states.
By and far, most gun-owners are great, down to Earth people. I’ve met lots of genuinely friendly gun-folks. I’d be tempted to say, find another more friendly group of people than gun-folks.
I won’t comment on professors who show up in gowns and demand to be called Dr. instead of Professor or Mr./Ms.
-“An armed society is a polite society.”
Andy writes “I have been stabbed before, trust me the only gun that would have saved me from being stabbed would have been the one mounted on a tank and it would have been primarily due to me being inside the damn tank! I didn’t see it coming and the only way in retrospect to have not had a knife go through my arm would have been to walk around with a gun in my hand.”
I find it odd that your sample of one attack, due in part to your complete lack of situal awareness, is your justification for everyone else to not have the effective means of self defense that a pistol provides. People use firearms in self defense more then they are used by bad guys to commit crimes. Read some of the work of John Lott to understand: http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/RTCResearch.html
As for the rest of your post, it is all over the place and I don’t want to waller.
To long island mike, I never said you do not have the right to be incompetent with your weapon. I also understand that training is probably the most expensive part of gun ownership. Most people cannot afford it. If you would have took the time to read my earlier responses you would also see that I do not think you have to be a Rambo- like warrior to carry a gun. The point you continue to miss is that it is not about your rights, but about your responsibility. Training with your firearm is not some mandate as a prerequisite for gun ownership or carry. If you decide to defend your family with a firearm that you do not properly train with then that is your business. Unfortunately, your chances of coming out of it alive as well as your family has just decreased. I have seen plenty of police videos and that proves my point. The animal reactions in a gun fight do not allow for thinking it out or fine motor skill responses. These reactions are gross motor responses that are wired into the human reaction to survive. Training allows these reactions to be automatically more precise and effective. This is what I call being responsible to yourself and your family. If you chose not to be that is your right, and it will also be your problem. You are right about one thing, the military calls it collateral damage. I would like to inform you though that you are not in the military when you carry a gun in public. You neither have military nor police powers to engage a threat like they do. Now in a life and death situation you may not have time to consider this and that I understand. This again however proves my point that training is necessary. When you have limited time to consider the threat or your surroundings you need to be able to react on trained instinct to better survive. Training does not necessarily mean you have to take thousand dollar courses. What it does mean is that you learn how to do things right and keep it simple. This does not have to be as complicated and expensive as you think. Remember this one thing long island, I am not your enemy. You may not believe it, but I am actually your friend. The reason is even though we may not see things the same way, I would still defend your right to see it the way you do. In the end I just want to protect both are rights from ever being taken away.
correction: last sentence should read our rights, not are rights.
@Tim from CO
All societies are different. Afghanistan is an armed society as is Somalia, but they aren’t very polite or safe. Firearms instructors work under set circumstances too, but remember the first dictim of combat.
No plan survives contact with the enemy. Likewise all the defensive training on earth may not be sufficient to save you or have you respond. A simple example from my life was that I once was on a bus with (I kid you not) 45 medically trained first responders when we hit a truck driver who had the misfortune of falling down an embankment straight into the path of the bus.
Out of 45 only 3 people responded, me and two others simply because I had more experience than the others. At my first emergency call out I didn’t know what to do despite being trained simply becaue in the spur of the moment your mind doesn’t work.
Tim I was mentioning the drop in crime rate across the western world. The rates are dropping in the UK (Which was what I was speaking of since the poster I was responding to was from Scotland like myself) where we don’t have handguns.
Remember, corellation does not imply causation. Its more to do with social uplift, improvements in policing to capture criminals and proper application of law. You stop crime at the source. That’s how we do it in europe. And I am loathe to think that the USA is more like Somalia or Afghanistan where strength of arms keeps you safer than the social order can, the USA isn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
Trust me, we just report murders more than we used to despite them going down in number. Even gang warfare is actually rather bad for business. (I suggest a read of freakonomics to see an insight into gangland economy). Most gangs try and cut down the feuds because it cuts into profit.
I wonder if anybody actually reads the posts by the guy with the cap-lock stuck? I didn’t.
Mas,
I wasn’t sure how to contact you, but this comment is separate from your post’s subject. I’m a former LEO here in Ohio, teach CCW courses as a certified NRA instructor, and instruct 4H Shooting Sports. I still recommend many of your books including “Gunproof your Children”.
You may or not be aware of this viral video from Canton, Ohio PD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kassP7zI0qc&feature=player_embedded
This is unfortunate because as a former LEO here Ohio, this is not typical or common, but it sure has most the CCW community spewing “cop-hate”.
I’ve had two former CCW students call me and ask how they should respond to such an incident. I indicated no differently than I instructed in class: Be polite, keep you hands in plain sight, notify the officer per the law as soon as you can, comply with all the officers requests, don’t argue – anything you say can be used against you, and if the officer orders you not to speak before you can notify him you are carrying… don’t argue… the attorneys will have to sort it out.
Ohio requires you to immediately notify the officer of CCW, but also requires you to obey all lawful orders of a police officer while carrying CCW, so when the first the officer says is, “Stay put and shut-up”… you’re in a bad situation.
Personally, when I worked as an LEO, I would not have crawled into the back seat to search a car while the driver (un-searched, un-identified, or even spoken too) was sitting in the front seat (with a loaded gun as it turns out).
This video will likely be used as a training tool. Unfortunately, it gives the cop-haters another reason to rant.
Dann in Ohio
Dann,
I understand from Canton PD’s announcement that discipline and investigation are both underway…and I think you’re right, it will become both a training film for cops on how not to handle these things, AND a focal point for the cop-haters.
best,
Mas
Long Island Mike,
To play devil’s advocate, you don’t have to spend several grand a year to get training. I DO want (note, I said “want”… trying to be realistic here) 100% of the armed populace to have recieved at least basic defensive gun-handling training and classroom instruction on the applicable law & legal. They don’t have to take MAG40 to get this (though that’d be preferable, or Class 250 @ gunsite), and even having only taken it once will be better than not at all.
With that said, I’m against a government mandate that they do so in order for them to exercise their constitutional and God-given right to self defense.
I’m all for holding people accountable for their actions after the fact, because with freedom comes responsibility, but at the same time I’m completely against massive, draconian restrictions.
# Mas Says:
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:23 am
Dann,
I understand from Canton PD’s announcement that discipline and investigation are both underway…and I think you’re right, it will become both a training film for cops on how not to handle these things, AND a focal point for the cop-haters.
best,
Mas
Well, when copdom is nothing but a barrel of apples and you find spoiled apples in the barrel, one become hesitant to start digging in and eating apples.
Now, note that I didn’t say all the apples are bad.
It is kind of scary knowing one day, that it might be me or someone I love who has a run in with some cop like this who is in a position of “authority” who could very well blow your frikken head off.
Now, that could happen from anyone. But, when it is a cop pulling you over, you want to know that you are safe, regardless if you are just getting a ticket. But, you are thinking … is this a bad apple in the barrel of apples? Is this cop going to go roid rage on me because HE is an idiot? Is he going to charge me for something because I didn’t smile, didn’t move fast enough, perceived that I didn’t have the proper attitude, because I didn’t kiss his arse in the manner he thought I should … etc.?
While I am always aware of my surrounding in daily life amongst the rest of the mundanes, I realize that I can pretty much defend myself at any given moment as the event arises.
But, when it is a cop… Shut up and take your lumps … or bullets … and maybe we will sort this out later and MAYBE you will justice.
Anyhow, this cop made several Terrorist Threats. I wonder how many years he will spend in prison?
Dann and Mas –
When people spew cop hate and show that video, I humbly recommend showing them this video of Officer Matt Lyons (Badge #1093) in Oceanside, CA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyS7Qr58wkU
Officer Lyons received a “man with a gun” call and responded to alleviate the concerns of nearby citizens. He encounters an open carrier with a counter, and the video above is the result.
I think officer Lyons’ video would make a far superior officer training video to the one out of Canton (for cops, anyway), to be frank. CCW students should problem see both to get an idea of the spectrum of possible behaviors they might encounter when interacting with law enforcement.
Avicenna, you’re not making any points by touting the UK as social model for Americans. Seriously, the world’s biggest Nanny State? I’ve been to Europe many times and I’ve spent months in the UK, and outside of a country like Bosnia, I’d rather live in just about any country in Europe EXCEPT the UK. I’d also prefer Thailand, the People’s Republic of China, South Korea, and numerous Latin American countries like Argentina, Panama, Belize, or Chile.
What the UK has become to a lot of us over here is the canary in the coal mine, a warning of where we’re headed if we don’t get our country back on the right path: a soft (so far) collectivist tyranny that intrudes into, and seeks to regulate, every aspect of life, as well as denying it’s people the fundamental right of self-defense. So, enjoy your increasingly Orwellian Nanny State but please don’t suggest we import any of what you apparently consider it’s “virtues.”
@Avicenna
I’ll agree, no plan survives initial contact. However, that’s no reason to skip planning. Planning and training, helps shape and condition mindset. Because training in a specific situation did not hold up, is no reason to fault training as a whole or preparedness (both physically and mentally).
While, I don’t know the people involved in the accident you mentioned, nor was I at the scene. I would be tempted to guess a lot of them were mentally unprepared to deal with an emergency at that time. Perhaps they were distracted or maybe relaxing in the bus and when the accident occurred, it caught them off-guard. They were not mentally prepared at that time.
A lot of victims of crime describe the same thing. The attack came out of no where. Even the best gun-fighters can be taken off-guard. I believe that’s how Jesse James met his end.
You’re right correlation does not imply causation. Yet one would think with the steady increase in gun ownership in the US, if guns did cause violence our violence would be soaring. I believe there are around 100 million guns in the US and about one in two households have firearms.
A study I have from the Social and General Statistics Section, House of Commons shows homicide increasing in Wales and England increasing however. Other publications I’ve seen say the way police reports are filed in the UK are different than in the US and it leads to lower numbers. A lot of reports seem to show UK’s crime going up while the US’s is going down. And while the UK may have a gun ban, it hasn’t stopped criminals from manufacturing their own.
Keeping arms isn’t a strength thing. It’s about being prepared. Arms do not cause violence any more than AEDs cause heart-attacks. It’s emergency equipment to be used in extreme circumstances. Violence is a human behavior, firearms are tools and like any tool is subject to the will of its user.
My local police is great and has an exceptional response time. But it’s still more than 5 minutes. Any type of help is minutes away when seconds count. If you see a loved one have a heart-attack, unless you’re in a hospital, help is minuets away. Irreversible brain damage will be setting in before help is even dispatched. Same goes for a home invasion, by the time you realize bad guys are in, help is too far away. You’re on your own, what’s your plan to protect yourself and your loved ones?